Indian Military Aviation

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Dec 2011 22:23

the bigger helicopters in 'avatar' movie packed a scary amt of firepower...some seemed to have around 10 rocket pods packed close together in a bundle of sorts.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 05 Dec 2011 22:30

and they also show exoskeletons

saadhak · Post by **saadhak** » 05 Dec 2011 23:45

Facelift for two Mirage 2000 jets in French Riviera

The first set of two Mirage 2000 combat jets of the Indian Air Force (IAF) have flown out for upgrade at the facilities of Thales, the French defence and aerospace giant, as part of a $1.35 billion deal for the 51-aircraft fleet.

"Two aircraft - a single seater and a double-seater - have flown out to the French Air Base near Istres. The aircraft will reach Monday-Tuesday after halts in two countries in the Gulf and two in Europe," Thales country director Eric Lenseigne said.

"The upgrade will begin immediately after a 22-member project team from the Indian Air Force and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will be associated with the project. This is what we call a middle-life upgrade. It will take a few years," Lenseigne said.

According to sources, the pilots and some team members could not have asked for a better flight path, and destination. Their landings were slotted for Qatar, Egypt, Turkey and Greece, before arriving at Istres in French Riviera, northwest of Marseille.

Lenseigne explained that during the upgrade of the two aircraft in Istres, a small team of Thales experts would also visit Bangalore for the upgrade of another two Mirage 2000 jets at the facility of Hindustan Aeronautics.

"The dates have not been fixed yet. It could be anytime towards the first half of 2013. Both at Istres and Bangalore, there will also be a simultaneous transfer of technology, so that the remaining upgrades can be done by the Indian side," he said.

India had announced a contract in end-July with two French defence firms -- Thales and Dassault -- for upgrading its fleet of 51 Mirage 2000 combat jets, which were acquired between 1982 and 1986. The details regarding the size of the deal were not spelt out.

But ministry officials had said it would work out to around $4 billion, if one were also to consider other investments, like $500 million towards a new facility at Bangalore for Hindustan Aeronautics and $1 billion for new weapons and related additions.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 06 Dec 2011 00:00

From the above news

But ministry officials had said it would work out to around $4 billion, if one were also to consider other investments, like $500 million towards a new facility at Bangalore for Hindustan Aeronautics and $1 billion for new weapons and related additions

$1 billion for new weapons and other stocks is fine, but it seems the total upgrade cost is $2.85, combining the $1.35 contract and another $1.5 (spent locally?). That is almost a third of the entire MRCA. Am I missing something?

jai · Post by **jai** » 06 Dec 2011 01:11

Singha wrote:I saw a iaf Mi17 today morning and it struck me that not withstanding khan posturing, it really is a better design for a army helicopter than the SH60. my reasons.

- using the rear ramp you can load a jeep or 105mm gun, the Sh60 can only sling a load which may not be possible in high winds and surely restricts its movement for instance in evasive action.
- the interior can be heated or cooled if needed being sealed , it can also be NBC protected if needed
- the Sh60 has zero protection from the sides , many have no doors at all, just a gaping hole...a good burst of MG fire at low alt will put down half the people inside , and maybe the pilots as well, the Mi17 type design can add additional armour wherever its needed on the sides ..while retaining portholes for rifles to fire from.
- Mi17 can drop off parachute packets down the rear
- it has a higher operating ceiling
- is proven across more users and more hostile conditions around the world, incl in UN ops
- better interior room as a battlefield ambulance/CSAR bird.
- can handle pallets on wheeled trolleys which can be pushed up the ramp rather than manhandled into the doors of sh60

about the only three 'advantages' I can think of for SH60 are
- people can stream out both sides , hence maybe a little better as a assault SF helo where quick deployment is needed
- looks more menaching with two miniguns sticking out of the side, though the Mi17 actually carries more ordnance like vikhr and gun/rocket pods.
- probably a bit more manouverable ... atleast in hollywood footage

avionics I am not considering as its all a question of money what you want. the KA31 for instance has a full glass cockpit we paid for it.

Without doubt it is one of the finest helicopters in the world, and I think the most built as well - with a long list of user countries. Counting the advantages two major ones are cost - 1/3 of the American, and payload - almost three times the number of troops it can carry...we should license produce this baby in India- better late than never !

Leo.Davidson · Post by **Leo.Davidson** » 06 Dec 2011 01:16

saadhak wrote:Facelift for two Mirage 2000 jets in French Riviera

In the 1980, when we bought these beautiful aircraft, Dassualt did a study and recommended 200 of these birds. They were also willing to move the entire assembly line to Bangalore. But the Indian government in it's infinite wisdom, declined that sweet offer. Had we taken up that offer, we'd not be in our present situation with the LCA and related technologies. We'd be past all of them.

Leo.Davidson · Post by **Leo.Davidson** » 06 Dec 2011 01:39

jai wrote:
Singha wrote:I saw a iaf Mi17 today morning and it struck me that not withstanding khan posturing, it really is a better design for a army helicopter than the SH60. my reasons.

- using the rear ramp you can load a jeep or 105mm gun, the Sh60 can only sling a load which may not be possible in high winds and surely restricts its movement for instance in evasive action.
- the interior can be heated or cooled if needed being sealed , it can also be NBC protected if needed
- the Sh60 has zero protection from the sides , many have no doors at all, just a gaping hole...a good burst of MG fire at low alt will put down half the people inside , and maybe the pilots as well, the Mi17 type design can add additional armour wherever its needed on the sides ..while retaining portholes for rifles to fire from.
- Mi17 can drop off parachute packets down the rear
- it has a higher operating ceiling
- is proven across more users and more hostile conditions around the world, incl in UN ops
- better interior room as a battlefield ambulance/CSAR bird.
- can handle pallets on wheeled trolleys which can be pushed up the ramp rather than manhandled into the doors of sh60

about the only three 'advantages' I can think of for SH60 are
- people can stream out both sides , hence maybe a little better as a assault SF helo where quick deployment is needed
- looks more menaching with two miniguns sticking out of the side, though the Mi17 actually carries more ordnance like vikhr and gun/rocket pods.
- probably a bit more manouverable ... atleast in hollywood footage

avionics I am not considering as its all a question of money what you want. the KA31 for instance has a full glass cockpit we paid for it.
Without doubt it is one of the finest helicopters in the world, and I think the most built as well - with a long list of user countries. Counting the advantages two major ones are cost - 1/3 of the American, and payload - almost three times the number of troops it can carry...we should license produce this baby in India- better late than never !

Mi-8/17 is definitely one of the most widely used helicopters in the world. And that's primarily due to it's low tech compared to the western counterparts and price. But that shouldn't make you compare apples & oranges. the SH60 is not in the same category as the Mi-8/17.

As far as licensing is concerned, India should have beaten China to it, but we didn't. One of my main concerns of the Mi-8/17, is that it is not suited for naval purposes. The other issue being we'll need to refit it with modern avionics, fire-control systems, etc at our expense. This being an overhead, it can be assumed that it will never be undertaken.

My choice is the Eurocopter EC725, it comes in both military & civilian versions; It is an upgrade to the venerable 'Super Puma', so it has several decades of end user testing; Being based off the Super Puma, means it's naval version can be taken for granted; Its military version comes with an advanced cockpit, inflight refueling, weapon payload and a sufficient 29 troop carrier version.

Most of all, I do believe that it is easier to strip down an advanced helicopter than to refit it. My ideology is that we need a 35/65 ratio for helicopters. That is, only 35% of the helicopters need to be pimped-up to the latest & greatest, these helicopters primarily be used in frontline & beyond borders activities like SAR, etc. The rest of the fleet, namely 65% will be operating well within the borders and will not need all of the gizmos etc. I'd like to see people extrapolate on this point.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Dec 2011 05:09

Leo.Davidson wrote:
saadhak wrote:Facelift for two Mirage 2000 jets in French Riviera
In the 1980, when we bought these beautiful aircraft, Dassualt did a study and recommended 200 of these birds. They were also willing to move the entire assembly line to Bangalore. But the Indian government in it's infinite wisdom, declined that sweet offer. Had we taken up that offer, we'd not be in our present situation with the LCA and related technologies. We'd be past all of them.

wrong on many counts. first of all what authority does dassault have to recommend what IAF needs ? I don't know where you get such ideas.
IAF had projected a need for 150 mirage-2000 and GOI had agreed, in principle.
the air base in charge of the m2k induction, maharajpur AFS, gwalior, was built up to handle 150 mirage-2000's. whether the balance 100-110 would be built under license or bought directly was never answered because India witnessed a massive resource crunch in the late 80's lasting until early 90's, culminating in the forced liberalisation.
AFAIK there was no offer of license production of the m2k at that point. *

once our financial condition improved GOI and IAF re-started the m2k acquisition process. the russians offered a modified su-30 as a competitor, it was cheaper and potentially much more capable. the flanker got selected. if we had gone ahead and bought the m2k, there would have been no MKI's. I much prefer the current ORBAT.
IAF again wanted the m2k which morphed into the MRCA after much dilly dallying by the govt.

* the russians offered license production of a single engined derivative of the mig-29, which we now know as the mig-33 project that ultimately fathered the jf-17. however, there was a catch, India was to scrap the LCA. obviously, this was not acceptable and we declined.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 06 Dec 2011 06:20

^^I believe the Mig-29 acquisition also complicated things as it was cheaper than the M2k and offered similar performance.
Edit: It's a good thing we bought the Mig-29s when we did though. Imagine having just 40 odd BVR capable interceptors during Kargil, which were also the only aircraft capable of carrying out precision-guided bombing.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Dec 2011 06:32

The French offer to move the Mirage 2000 line to India was just before it shut down in 2007. Not in the 1980s. The Mirage 2000 was first inducted in 1982 and was in production for 25 years. There is no way the French would have "offered" to shift the entire production line of their best, state of the art fighter to India in the 1980s.

I recall reading the original news about both the Mirage 2000 purchase and the MiG 29 purchase back in the 1980s. There was an offer to manufacture the MiG 29 in India that was not taken up.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Dec 2011 07:28

shiv ji the russian offer was not for the mig-29 but the mig-33, or whatever you would call a single engined mig-29 derivative.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Dec 2011 07:38

Rahul M wrote:shiv ji the russian offer was not for the mig-29 but the mig-33, or whatever you would call a single engined mig-29 derivative.

Nope. MiG 29 it was. I will scan and put up at least one source that the offer to possibly manufacture MiG 29s was there in the 1980s long before the MiG 33 was conceived.

Leo.Davidson · Post by **Leo.Davidson** » 06 Dec 2011 07:53

Rahul,
(1) A Seller does not need any Authority to estimate the requirements of the buyer.
(2) And my only source of information pre-internet was TOI and to some extent the roadside book sellers in Matunga & Churchgate.

Actually the French offered joint production in 2001, pre-MMRCA and later offered to move the production line to India in 2007. Even in 2001, the LCA project was pretty much bits & pieces of success; And the equipment and technology acquired via the joint production, would have greatly helped the LCA effort. Around that time, the French also offered an avionics Umbrella. That is, we could pick and choose any avionics/equipment to be fitted in any/all aircraft.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 06 Dec 2011 08:20

Bell Boeing to brief India on V-22 Osprey

With v-22 record of crashes , Navy should give this a miss

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 06 Dec 2011 08:24

karan_mc wrote:Bell Boeing to brief India on V-22 Osprey

With v-22 record of crashes , Navy should give this a miss

yes we are now the biggest dumping ground of all military hardware

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Dec 2011 08:40

shiv wrote:
Rahul M wrote:shiv ji the russian offer was not for the mig-29 but the mig-33, or whatever you would call a single engined mig-29 derivative.
Nope. MiG 29 it was. I will scan and put up at least one source that the offer to possibly manufacture MiG 29s was there in the 1980s long before the MiG 33 was conceived.

okay, I will have to hunt for my dusty frontlines.

Prithwiraj, the french production offer was part of the original MRCA or what became the MRCA. I am not aware of any production offer in the 80's. TOI is of course hardly reliable.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Dec 2011 09:01

shiv wrote:I recall reading the original news about both the Mirage 2000 purchase and the MiG 29 purchase back in the 1980s. There was an offer to manufacture the MiG 29 in India that was not taken up.

Yes the Mig-29 was offered for lic manufacturing in India but was not taken up , even the M2K deal was to lic manufacture more then 100 M2K in India that was not taken up. Probably the economic crises of 90's and breakup of SU made both the offer not feasible.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Dec 2011 09:12

okay, found it.

Letter to the Editor, Frontline, February 26, 1993.

(On Manoj Joshi's contention in an earlier article that IAF was short sighted in not taking up lic manuf of mig-29):
excerpt :

I do recollect that the soviets offered mig-29 license as a replacement for the LCA. The even offered to scale down the size of the aircraft and make it single engined to meet our QRs. This was turned down by the Govt as it would come in the way of the quantum jump in indigenous technology to be developed by the DRDO (LCA project). Perhaps the IAF also fell in line with this thinking.
- Air Marshal M.M Singh

kuldipchager · Post by **kuldipchager** » 06 Dec 2011 09:39

Actually when Mr.Breznev pay a visit to India he did offer india Mig 31 with offer to built in India.(It is when Russia was in Afganistan.)
But Indra Gandhy go for Mig 29.But we never exercise to produce it.As 1963 treaty any new mig produce will pass to india to manufacture it.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Dec 2011 09:43

I think we are talking of two different offers here one is the lic manuf of Mig-29 after initial purchase of 40 plus Mig-29 directly from SU , this was similar to lic manuf of M2K after the initial 40 plus direct procurement.

The other is the single engine variant which was offered as a replacement of LCA , that was the so called Mig-33 single engine fighter , its another design from Mikyon.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Dec 2011 10:30

I do not think there were 2 separate offers, as AM Singh says "soviets offered mig-29 license as a replacement for the LCA". usually superpowers did not offer their top of the line toys for lic manufacturing. US didn't offer them at all and USSR created monkey models for supplying to other countries.

wig · Post by **wig** » 06 Dec 2011 10:37

with reference to the mig 29

The report also indicates that all may not be well with the technical aspects of the MiG-29 fleet either. The report quotes the Defence Secretary as saying, “Unfortunately, I must confess the Russians are extremely reluctant to share certain information. On the MiG-29 too, there have been instances in the past where we have to really come down heavily. We actually struggle to get the information. They are very secretive about what goes wrong with the machine.”

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20111206/nation.htm#4

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Dec 2011 10:44

> My choice is the Eurocopter EC725

I used to like it too, but then reading wiki it seems the NH90 orders outdistance it by a huge 10:1 ratio. so its unlikely to benefit from scaled production and MLU investment unless Ecopter x-subsidizes it from more profitable products.

that way even the CH-53K being developed for USMC with a big confirmed order looks like a good bet as a people and cargo hauler with decent amt of avionics and self-defence kit (US never skimps on that).

we can also license make the Mi17 latest version, just because the chinese have signed up doesnt mean we cannot too! but it might be cheaper to just keep buying it until HAL's medium heli comes online hopefully around 2025.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 06 Dec 2011 15:40

India had both the offers of manufacturing Mirage 2000 and Mig 29. It was not taken up due to financial constraints

There was a magazine, which celebrated IAF's 50th anniversary in 1990's (with exclusive pictures). I read reports around 1986-87 about the French offer (around Bofors scandal times). The Mig 29 was never attempted also due to the issues with its engines

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Dec 2011 15:42

>> There was a magazine, which celebrated IAF's 50th anniversary in 1990's (with exclusive pictures)

pushpinder singh in frontline.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Dec 2011 15:49

Rahul M wrote:>> There was a magazine, which celebrated IAF's 50th anniversary in 1990's (with exclusive pictures)

pushpinder singh in frontline.

No not Frontline. It was a special edition. I have a copy. I think Jagan has a cover pic somewhere on BR.

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 07 Dec 2011 16:57

Has there been any update on engine for jaguar MLU?

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 08 Dec 2011 10:34

Airbus hopes to sell A330 tankers to India

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Dec 2011 10:37

long term we need atleast 40 tankers to support dispersed ops in the arc from madagascar to leh to tezpur to car nicobar.
a paltry 6 is not even a dent on the problem. and big birds like phalcons and P8I will guzzle a lot of fuel to remain on station.

I am thinking apart from new A330, why not get airbus-HAL to do a conversion of older A330 types which certain airlines like Emirates or SIA tend to get rid of after only 5 yrs to keep their fleets swank and new. these would have a residual life of atleast 30 yrs more...and we often see older MD-11, 747 and Airbuses converted to cargo hauling role by Fedex/DHL. they put a sheet over the windows , remove the seating and install the floor rails for pallets with a big side door....lots of pix on airliners.net

that would be cost effective way to get 15-20 more.

days of Jaguars sitting enmasse in ambala with bombs loaded are coming to end...in the age of baburs and raads...future strikes must stage from multiple airbases, much deeper into south india and appear without warning at the jump off points topped up and with concentration of force to overwhelm any defender.

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 08 Dec 2011 10:44

Once the orders are placed, more aircraft's will join as follow on orders. I guess its better to go with FMS on Boeing Tanker. Otherwise the whole thamasha episode will repeat again.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 08 Dec 2011 10:47

with Mig-29k.N-Tejas , Tu144,il-38,P-8I all getting refueling pods Navy too will have separate requirements for their fleet

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 08 Dec 2011 14:55

Or, formulate the requirements in a manner where airbus and others come but airbus wins

Include the lifecycle cost, uptimes etc in the calculations....

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 08 Dec 2011 15:21

karan_mc wrote:with Mig-29k.N-Tejas , Tu144,il-38,P-8I all getting refueling pods Navy too will have separate requirements for their fleet

TU 144

Is that a new supersonic bomber for IAF. Wow

K

I suppose u meant TU 142

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 08 Dec 2011 19:18

Kersi D wrote:
karan_mc wrote:with Mig-29k.N-Tejas , Tu144,il-38,P-8I all getting refueling pods Navy too will have separate requirements for their fleet
TU 144

Is that a new supersonic bomber for IAF. Wow

K

I suppose u meant TU 142

ooopsee Typo

, coming to supersonic bomber , Navy wanted Tu-22M from Russia , what happened to that , i never heard any thing about that ever again , did Russia refused or $$ asked was too much ???

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 08 Dec 2011 19:37

Tu-22m has been a jingo wish for the last 12 years on BRF. Navy has never claimed they wanted em.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Dec 2011 20:04

Folks I had an aha moment reading an article by Adm Arun Prakash, retd CNS and naval aviator. He says that while HAL persisted with building 150 Maruts and followed on with HF 73 etc, the IAF and GoI were uninterested. The navy of course has collaborated with Indian industry for decades.

Did you realise that India now has five aviation arms? IAF, Naval aviation, Army aviation, Coast Guard and BSF?

Now if you see what is happening, the Navy is a big supporter of LCA. The army isa big supporter of Dhruv, armed Dhruv and the LCH. Navy and oast guard are big on Dorniers.

On the other hand the Air Force does not have to give a damn about local innovation. Licence manufacture will do just fine for the IAF. Su 30, MMRCA later T-50. Whether Tejas comes or not, whether Kaveri comes or not, whether AMCA comes or not is no sweat for IAF.

For this reason I suspect that innovation and aircraft design in India is gradually going to shift towards the non Air Force air arms of India and their requirements. Maybe UAVs and UCAVs too.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 08 Dec 2011 20:46

India was offered a line to make 150 Mig 29s with the original 60 planes. India declined. It is not clear why.

Similarly, in 91, just before the fall, the USSR offered 40 Su 27, along with an unspecified nos of the Yak 141 which was then in advanced stages of design, if this offer (Su 27) came with a license to make the jets at home I don't recall.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Dec 2011 22:27

Most likely the Mig-29 and M2K lic production were not taken up becuase it was darn expensive and by early 90's we are already in deep financial problem.

There was this famous Air Chief who once said he did not see the need for Flanker in the IAF ( think it is ACM Mehra in early 90's )

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Dec 2011 22:56

hope IA takes the lead and adopts Rustom followed by a family of armed uavs. as the prime user, this needs to be free of iaf control.

member_19626 · Post by **member_19626** » 08 Dec 2011 23:13

shiv wrote: Did you realise that India now has five aviation arms? IAF, Naval aviation, Army aviation, Coast Guard and BSF?

What about ARC?
is it capable of providing offensive role is needed??