South India River Water Issues/Disputes

[Sachin]

Just saw an advertisement in Surya TV (which is run by the Sun TV group) yesterday. It was about school kids going some where, and a boy asks for water in Tamil. A girl gives her water bottle. Later the girl trips and is about to fall down, while the boy manages to hold her. This was the Kerala Govt. advertisement for Mullaperiyar. I dont know if the same advertisement is getting aired on Tamil channels as well.

At least one local news paper (http://www.deepika.com) reports that vegetables are now getting stuck up in TN, because mallus are bying it from else where. But in this news paper reports I could also trace shades of one-up man ship and also a bit of rumour mongering. Other major news papers have stopped sensationalising news related to Mullaperiyar.

Going off topic now..

I do not what went wrong there ? I personally think it is the constant false image created by the neighbours that KL is a commie state , when it is largely untrue. Mistaking awareness and free expression of rights with communism is the biggest fraud one can think of

IMHO the folks who shot at their own feet were Mallus themselves. Commies etc. had made such a ruckus when computers were brought in for the first time (they did the same thing when tractors came in as well). And then may be because of better media coverage, the harthals, bandhs and their frequencies were highlighted very much. These would have certainly created a negative image on the state. Neighbours may have come up with better options to industrialists and IT-Vity Majors/Colonels/Brigadiers. I guess "free expression of rights" was a bit too much, and this got associated with "taking no responsibilities".

One thing I noticed, with interactions with Mallu IT Vity folks in Bengaluru. It is very rare to find a Mallu IT-Vity chap who wants to relocate to Kerala. Especially when compared to the number of Tamils who wish to go back to TN, and Telugus who wish to move to Hyderabad.

[Bade]

^^^ For malayalis it has always been about 'what is in it for me' , be it uber capitalist business men, kirana store wallah or even the so called "commie" laborer. If they find there is something worthwhile for them by moving back to kerala then they will, else they will not. It may not be the same for other neighboring states, since identity is more or equally important for them. Case in point, all mallu families I know including mine, who migrated out of state within a generation or two adopt local languages if not entire customs and food. That is the first step to integration. Others still give a lot of value to their native tongue and go to great extents to preserve it even in small isolated communities.

[vina]

all mallu families I know including mine, who migrated out of state within a generation or two adopt local languages if not entire customs and food

Dude. What are you talking about ? You know from first hand from going to the Madrassa that the Mallus were the most cultish and clannish (among the southies at least, giving the gults a good run for the money), but overall, it was the Bongs who were the most clannish I suppose. Since you were a Mallu from Bengal, two strikes against you, I guess.

[Bade]

Expected vina-mullah to come out in full force defense with whatever he identifies with. No surprises there for me. I have seen it all in the Madrassa, where mallus and kannadigas were less than 10% of the student population as well as faculty strength. If it were not a central govt institute then would have been forced to learn the local tongue. I rarely ventured out of the safe confines of the campus to avoid the fundamentalists outside, when I could not even deal with the fundoos within the campus.

[Bade]

Back to topic, despite distractions Did someone say that the 999-yr lease is sacred and legal, if so why is the Supreme Court entertaining such questions even.

NEW DELHI: Despite Tamil Nadu's objections, a Supreme Court-appointed Empowered Committee on Mullaperiyar Dam issue today asked the state and Kerala to file their response by Friday on the ownership mechanism of a new dam, if built in place of the existing structure.

At a hearing here today, both states stuck to their known stands on the vexed issue with Tamil Nadu contending that the dam was safe and can withstand pressure and Kerala outrightly rejecting them.

Kerala's lawyers argued before the committee headed by former Chief Justice of India A S Anand that a new dam has to be built in the interest of lakhs of people residing in Idukki and neighbouring districts.

During arguments, the panel sought to know from both states their stands on the ownership mechanism, regulation of water and control of structure of a new dam, if built, sources said.

"Tamil Nadu rejected the idea and said the question of building of a new dam does not arise. The state argued that the dam was safe and there was no damage to it. It also argued that the argument of a new dam was unfounded," a source said.

However, the panel asked both states to file their response to the issue by Friday. The states have also been asked to file their response to a number of issues by Friday.

The decision of the panel to seek response of the two states comes in the backdrop of a two-member technical committee visiting the dam in Kerala's Idukki district for a study. The members have submitted an internal report to the committee.

Supreme Court-appointed panel on dam asks TN, Kerala to file response

[svenkat]

Two states and a water issue-Article by Ramaswamy Iyer-former Secretary,Ministry of Water Resources,GOI.

Unwarranted fears on mullaiperiyar-Response to above from the most 'sober' TN political party-DMK

Safety will benefit TN-Rejoinder from Shri Iyer to Duraimurugan

The case for a new dam-The view from Kerala

New dam the only solution

I request jingoes to give careful consideration to Shri Iyers views.I think,though am not sure,that he is a 'palaghat iyer'-the community derisively described as 'pattars' by kerala TFTAs.These people with split identities on border areas tend to be fair.They have no other choice.true all over the world.

[vina]

Two states and a water issue-Article by Ramaswamy Iyer-former Secretary,Ministry of Water Resources,GOI.

Shri Iyer is a D*ck , who basically f@rted in his pieces in Al-Hundi. His basic thesis that the Mullaperiyar was a "gross assault" on the environment and hence should be "reversed" is untenable! If that is the case, he really should be talking about the much much bigger "Assault" , the Idukki and even bigger assaults like Bhakra-Nangal and all the rest of it.

Unwarranted fears on mullaiperiyar-Response to above from the most 'sober' TN political party-DMK

Indeed. Durai Murugan's piece was quite sober. Read up the bits about how Kerala is just plain obstructionist with the the repairs that were carried out, denied use of even lorries to transport the stones and how they had to use DONKEYS etc.

Safety will benefit TN-Rejoinder from Shri Iyer to Duraimurugan

Indeed safety will. But this issue is NOT about safety ,which is just a trojan horse. The real agenda is different. So what is it?

The case for a new dam-The view from Kerala

The real agenda is "New Dam, New Dam, DAMN it, New Dam" . But why New Dam ?

IN today's Al Hundi. The front page leader. New Dam is the ONLY Solution says Kerala

Appearing for Kerala, senior counsel Rajeev Dhavan and counsel Mohan Katarki said: “If the new dam is feasible and the proposal of Kerala is found… reasonable by the Empowered Committee, there is no need for addressing the issue of safety of the old dam.”

In plain Inglees, what it means is, we will not allow you to repair/strengthen the existing dam / reject any such measure, because, we want the new dam built . So, even if it is feasible to just build a new dam, just demolish the old dam and let it degrade. Err. you ask who build something that aint broke you ask.. .. Waaa. Waaa. You don't care for our lives, you hate us, how dreadful, even err. Paki.. (isn't this argument something like what Islam in Pakiland does with other Kafir faith temples, preventing repairs and rehabilitation so that it degrades with time and goes to seed. )

Counsel submitted that the question whether the dam was safe or not could not be decided with certainty as there was no sign or scientific method.

Rubbish. Even if you go to two doctors, there is bound to be a difference in opinion. Doesn't mean that in that kind of difference, you cant make a considered judgement. It happens in courts and daily life every day. If there was no "scientific method", who every fool politco in Kerala and TN can be deemed the expert and go some quixotic crusade against this or that.

“The ownership of the new dam would vest with Kerala as it is funding the dam entirely from its pocket. However, the operation of the reservoir shall be by a joint committee of Kerala and Tamil Nadu.”

Ah.. So finally, the cat is out of the bag. That is the entire agenda behind this. So, Kerala is going to build a massive dam that is 300 meters the current one, raise a much bigger reservoir,and severely damage the environment in that region (huh.. are they going to use donkeys to move the building materials and then not allow the use of explosives to blast stones and use hand tools, just like they made TN do, surely they can't argue that the animals and wildlife will get disturbed only when TN uses such methods, but not when Kerala does so.. ).

LIke I said, in any proposal, they are going to have to dig a new tunnel. Kerala has every right to build the dam below Thekkady. Let them do so by all means. However they cannot demolish the existing dam, which is TN property. TN is not going to allow that. TN should take out the water and store it in the TN side and lower the dam height to 50 ft or so. The existing structure will be perfectly safe for that until kingdom comes

That will take care of the "Safety for Kerala and Water for TN" and there can be no more talking over this forever. Problem solved. .. Samapth, Katham, Finished, Aachu, Aayittu.

I request jingoes to give careful consideration to Shri Iyers views.

He was talking through his Musharraf and his views belong in the dustbin. Sorry.

I think,though am not sure,that he is a 'palaghat iyer'-the community derisively described as 'pattars' by kerala TFTAs.These people with split identities on border areas tend to be fair.They have no other choice.true all over the world.

Ah.. That would be your's truly. So listen to me!

[Bade]

Durai Murugan's piece was quite sober. Read up the bits about how Kerala is just plain obstructionist with the the repairs that were carried out, denied use of even lorries to transport the stones and how they had to use DONKEYS etc.

OK now rumours spread by a DMK politician makes for a convincing argument of how deceitful the KL people are. Great going, your services will be wanted where else, but the Peopre's Lepubric of China.

Ah.. So finally, the cat is out of the bag. That is the entire agenda behind this. So, Kerala is going to build a massive dam that is 300 meters the current one, raise a much bigger reservoir,and severely damage the environment in that region

So 300 metres downstream is still higher up from the plains of Vaikol supporters, no ? So what is this denial of water and deceit business claimed by TN supporters. Water can still flow downstream to TN.

[Bade]

LIke I said, in any proposal, they are going to have to dig a new tunnel. Kerala has every right to build the dam below Thekkady. Let them do so by all means. However they cannot demolish the existing dam, which is TN property. TN is not going to allow that. TN should take out the water and store it in the TN side and lower the dam height to 50 ft or so. The existing structure will be perfectly safe for that until kingdom comes

Gee, what am I seeing here, someone changing tune again. Did we not hear someone say SC had given TN indisputable rights to raise level to 156 ft, or is it a typo onlee, 50 ft means Vaikol and his supporters will make vina mullah take permanent exile in salubrious Bengaluru for life, or more like 999 generations.

[vina]

So 300 metres downstream is still higher up from the plains of Vaikol supporters, no ? So what is this denial of water and deceit business claimed by TN supporters. Water can still flow downstream to TN.

LIke I said, in any proposal, they are going to have to dig a new tunnel. Kerala has every right to build the dam below Thekkady. Let them do so by all means. However they cannot demolish the existing dam, which is TN property. TN is not going to allow that. TN should take out the water and store it in the TN side and lower the dam height to 50 ft or so. The existing structure will be perfectly safe for that until kingdom comes

Gee, what am I seeing here, someone changing tune again. Did we not hear someone say SC had given TN indisputable rights to raise level to 156 ft, or is it a typo onlee, 50 ft means Vaikol and his supporters will make vina mullah take permanent exile in salubrious Bengaluru for life, or more like 999 generations.

Bade Mian, you can't jump in and out at random, without reading through the earlier posts. Pls go back and read what I wrote. There really is NO need for any new dam. The Kerala proposal of building a dam 300 meters downstream is rubbish.

The current outlet to TN is at 104m. Below that, TN cant draw a drop of water. So either Kerala has to build a massive dam, ie, couple of hundred meters tall (very expensive, huge reservoir, lots of damage) or a small dam, with a brand new tunnel taking the water to TN (as the current one wont be usable).

If you are going to build a new tunnel, build that one below 104ms , say some 40/50m below the current one and use the existing dam and use it as a check dam only and store all the water in TN (expanded storage, fully use current ones, maybe add a small one). This is the sane one that the environmentalists in Kerala advocated as well (I posted the link on that).

But no, the Kerala politicos are onto something really devious here. Spend massive amount of money in building a useless dam (when all that is needed is a tunnel) , maybe there are vested interest looking for construction contracts, commies want to employ labor / whatever (really a big , dig a hole & fill a hole thing ), massive damage to the enviroment, huge dislocation, everything. Not that they don't know it, that is why I suspect this entire thing is a big red herring.

Do go back and read through the thread. At least this page
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... &start=440

[Bade]

But why cannot a second dam massive or otherwise be good for KL if used for power generation, unless the TN plan as espoused by you is to drain the whole mullaperiyar and store all the water in TN, with nothing in it for KL. Why this commie solution being imposed on us saar for rest of the 999 years.

I did read the links Venkat posted, and one of them arguing from the KL side did mention dismantling the old dam when the new one is complete. No saar it is all about ownership and a new agreement with probably even more water for TN as a sop. OK a new tunnel will be required at a new site but it would be the same if you reduced the FRL to 50 m at the existing one too. Besides, more electricity generation potential for KL too.

Of course the Environmental clearance can still be a major obstacle for KL's plans. So it may never get built and instead the water level drastically reduced at the existing dam to a safe level decreasing with every increase in cluster activity of seismicity in the region. Either way TN will be the loser, unless Briturd's role is played by the new masters in Dilli. Unlikely, since Kangress has a better footing in KL than in TN and more to lose politically.

[chaanakya]

Bade sir If there is a question of ownership then rest assured it does not get transferred through lease agreement. Also , lease agreement itself is in question at SC. State Govt has power to nullify any type of lease agreement through Legislation or restrict the scope or period. Moreover, KL did commit a mistake when it signed agreement with TN in 1970 agreeing to that lease agreement and taking any of the alternative recourse would be improper if not illegal.

I have not seen the texts of nay of the above documents so can't comment further beyond what fact are available in public domain.

It seems to me that KL can't use water in productive manner. The concept of current dam is brilliant as it involves inter basin water transfer , primarily for agri purposes. Power is a later addition. Rs 75,000 , when the lease was signed, was not a meagre sum. Of course Rupee value has depreciated more than the value of rights granted. Cost of power being paid to KL is higher by any standards.

Main concern seems to be safety of dam. Only a consensus of technical experts can solve this issue. If KL does not have trust in Technical members of SC empowered committee , it would be better to have members jointly appointed or nominated. Afterall experts are pronouncing in favour of both sides and who is to be discounted and by whom.

Another point , which someone may clarify is that if dam collapses, as predicted by KL , without new dam in place what happens to lease agreement as KL may not construct any dam at all or may do so outside of lease agreement.

[vina]

But why cannot a second dam massive or otherwise be good for KL if used for power generation, unless the TN plan as espoused by you is to drain the whole mullaperiyar and store all the water in TN, with nothing in it for KL. Why this commie solution being imposed on us saar for rest of the 999 years.

In fact, TN has the right to 100% of the flow above the dam in any case. This is nothing new and no change from the existing arrangement.

Sorry. With that flow of Mullaperiyar , you can generate only a piddly amount of electricity with it in Kerala and to do so, you don't need a new dam at all. Just let the water flow to Idukki and you already have the generators there to do it! Why build the dam at all ?

But on the other hand, TN can and does generate a sizeable amount of power from the same Mullaperiyar waters. How so ? Well, short answer geography. The hills drop nearly vertically down in the TN side, so the head (in YinJinEar Ring) or Potential Energy (in Fyzzzics) is much higher in the TN side given the over 1500 ft or so drop. With the power station at the foot of the hill, TN generates decent power. In a dam (like in Idukki), the power potential is restricted by the height of the reservoir behind the dam. So, if the power was generated at Mullaperiyar itself with the same water flow, and not in TN as at present, you would get only a very small fraction of power.

I did read the links Venkat posted, and one of them arguing from the KL side did mention dismantling the old dam when the new one is complete. No saar it is all about ownership and a new agreement with probably even more water for TN as a sop. OK a new tunnel will be required at a new site but it would be the same if you reduced the FRL to 50 m at the existing one too. Besides, more electricity generation potential for KL too.

sorry. You will get little or no electricity out of a small dam with a small head. You might as well let the water flow to idukki. The greatest power potential is as in the current arrangement with the water flowing to TN.

Of course the Environmental clearance can still be a major obstacle for KL's plans. So it may never get built and instead the water level drastically reduced at the existing dam to a safe level decreasing with every increase in cluster activity of seismicity in the region. Either way TN will be the loser, unless Briturd's role is played by the new masters in Dilli. Unlikely, since Kangress has a better footing in KL than in TN and more to lose politically.

Go back and read my post on how TN's Pakiness was in using KL as an "overhead tank". TN wont be the loser if the water level is restricted to say 50 ft or so, just for the wildlife and the lake at Thekkady to exist. There are good alternatives. TN is essentially fighting to keep using KL as the overhead tank, which I think can be defused forever.

This entire Mullaperiyar business is a non issue. If the issue is really about cheap hydel power (TN generates around 100MWs out of it I think), maybe KL can buy power from TN when some of the ultramega projects come up and also get a larger share of the central projects like Kudankulam, Neyveli etc.

[Sachin]

Found a letter in the "letters to the editor" column in Mathrubhumi (http://www.mathrubhumi.com). The paper is not as jingoistic as say Deepika.com etc.
Link: http://epaper.mathrubhumi.com/epapersto ... 2012-.aspx

In this letter the author brings up another contention. That is the land for the Mullaperiyar was taken from the King of Travancore by the Secretary of State for India In Council. This happened in the year 1886. This post of Secretary of State was created after the Queen of England took over the rule of India. It was only in 1935 that each state/presidency got some of sort of self-governance/self-rule. Until then all states were subsidiaries of the ruling body at Delhi (Viceroy and Secretary of State for Indian in Council). The author's contention is that the land certainly cannot be now claimed by Tamil Nadu (which was earlier Madras Presidency) when it was taken on lease by an official of the Empire of India (which would now map to Indian Union). So the right ful owners would be the Central bodies (who took over from the Viceroy and the Secretary of State for India).

The author is also surprised that no one raised this point when negotiations were done in early 1970s between Kerala and Tamil Nadu governments.

[chaanakya]

The lack of consensus between KL and TN would give an opportunity to put obstacles in the project of interlinking of rivers which would involve huge transfer of water from North to South.

[Stan_Savljevic]

The author is also surprised that no one raised this point when negotiations were done in early 1970s between Kerala and Tamil Nadu governments.

Sachin, the author is surprised because this was a non-issue in 1970. For what it is worth, the then Kerala government found it a non-issue at many levels, because Idukki was not there, Kerala's population was low, that area was not populated enough, Kerala was water-surplus and believed it will be water-surplus etc. (Kerala still is water-normal, not water-surplus) and things were fine as they stood. Accusing Shri. Achutha Menon of committing a grave crime is a post-facto ululation and unfair.

The SC judgment is online, you can dig up google. All these contentions raised by the author (and even a superset of these) were made before the SC and SC delivered a verdict in 2006 on which the ownership issue (as it exists now) has been resolved. In short, the SC found nothing wrong in what was done in 1886 or 1970(?). Basically, it told the Kerala government that if you go on like this, anything done before the Instrument of Accession was signed would be illegitimate. I remember seeing a precise statement to this effect in what the Judge wrote. Or was it a commentary that did nt go as the part of the verdict, I dont remember. Some of those commentaries were mis-used by the TN side (commentaries are not verdicts, its like saying the two governments what they need to know, informal chit-chat, but still recorded) and used in an advertisement saying "even Judge Judy says so." SC said dont mess with us to GoTN and GoTN apologized. This happened a few days back. It pulled GoK for something else, making technicalities a matter of public debating and making an agreement impossible if I remember right. It said the last part to GoTN too.

There is a reason why the Kerala side wants a new dam, because a new dam they say means new ownership and agreement. If safety was the only concern, why not have a new dam and the old agreement? After all, it is in the spirit, no?! TN did nt realize the dam structure could cause so much concern, else we could have had a new dam in 1970, no?! For finances, let the GoI figure out the details, ok? Let it be a soft loan and baksheesh for post-Sarkaria harmony. Safety for Kerala, status quo as is in terms of agreement, not much economic onslaught on both sides courtesy baba-jaan, and water for TN. I have not seen one instance of a Kerala minister saying "same agreement." There lies everything about this issue, it is not water. It never was water, forget Vai Ko. Even the most rational DMK/ADMK (yes, such a species exists unfortunately ) thugs agree on such things. Its like the TN version of Sanku and Surya agreeing on one thing . Making big deal of fringe people like Vai Ko who cant even win a few seats worth his salt in the elections and making him representative of TN opinion is as much as if TN made the Minister who was in jail (for corruption on Idukki project nonetheless)'s opinion the same as Kerala's. Both sides have fringe idiots, some are more nuttier than the others, some make a better lab specimens than others, and some require lobotomy with an orang-utan brain to become better people than they are.

All this whine of 999 years, unfair on Kerala is sad because people are rewriting history as it happened based on current water needs. From what I gather, it was not forced on the Travancore Maharaja and he was a very generous man, god bless him. Passing calumny on people who cant defend themselves (like the Travancore Maharaja or Achutha Menon) wont solve matters. Since this is an inter-state issue, re-bargaining on agreements need to be done with generosity two-ways. TN is not bound to re-negotiate an amendment signed in 1970, but it may have to because of camaraderie issues. Kerala has to realize that and TN has to understand the camaraderie in the first place that made an "established use" established in the first place. With the set of leaders on both sides, I am hopeless. With the style of debating and noisy Internets, I am even more hopeless. Sorry to say this, but Dileep has lost it, but yea big deal, let that slide away because it is no big deal for me. And the butterfly effect of Kudankulam makes it only more messier, calling for sensibility is like a crime these days. We will see more circus similar to this, we have seen Singur, Jaitapur, Kudankulam, Nyamagiri, and now Mullaipperiyar -- at the end of the day, this is democrazy in akshun. More power to it. I would rather have this kinda circus than baba-jaan dictating what I should do and whether I have the moral compass to do something or not .

[Stan_Savljevic]

Plus, there are precedents. If TN says ok to Kerala in terms of a new lease agreement, every other state will pull a fast one on every other state with which it has a joint agreement saying "current needs." This is definitely not going to be funny with how inter-state issues can be whipped up in today's India at the drop of a hat. And if you expect GoI to mediate, that is not funny either because that is beholden to local and regional politicking. At the end of the day, everyone is going to whine. Why, in fact, the SC itself will pull up TN and Kerala if such an agreement is agreed as to the nature of the precedent, not like such an agreement is possible or even remotely likely.

If an Empowered Committee is appointed, you cant whine about it after you have accepted it in the first place. What GoK is doing is not funny, why did they even agree to an Empowered Committee when they have to disagree with this and that? Or are they playing to the gallery? If TN follows this same model (and sooner than later, it will, it is just game theoretically the most decent course of akshun in a three-player game where the third player does nt show his cards and is more powerful -- both perceived and real), and whines about this and that, you have the perfect mess. Did nt Sidney Sheldon write a chess-based story with this theme?

If new needs come up, solutions based on current circumstances have to be found. But then the spirit of any agreement cannot be violated. What Kerala is asking for a gross change in the agreement by making an issue a negotiable one. Even the basic structure of the Constitution cannot be altered, ipso facto, a tenable claim to the fact that the basic structure of any agreement cannot be changed can and will be made. IOW, there is no solution to this even when the Empowered Committee submits its report, I think everyone in the forum can take a chill pill and watch the wrangling go on to infinity.

[Bade]

^^^ All that you have said just boils down to the single point, is the judiciary more important than the legislature. If it is the former there is no need for tooting around with democracy, we can have a dictatorial setup with a constitution too. Didn't even Eye-raq before the invasion have a constitution and so does the many other countries with less people's say in matters. Elites and bureaucrats can decide like they used to in pre-1950 days.

[Bade]

http://www.internationalrivers.org/node/490 interesting read, though they make only tangential references to North American dams.

In the context of KL, there is the additional issue of ingress of saline water in coastal areas at a faster rate than before. So fresh water issues are not going to go away with time, and one can understand why R Iyer saab mentioned about getting away from an over dependence on waters from KL. Being an hydrologist he must know better.

[Theo_Fidel]

...is the judiciary more important than the legislature.

Bade,

You misunderstand democracy. It is not a tyranny of the legislature. Majority can not take away rights of minority. People can not willy nilly do what they feel like, esp. in legal matters.

Your point of view is that the agreement does not give anything to Kerala.

This is incorrect as well. Yes TN enjoys the large bulk of the benefits, water + electricity. But Kerala enjoys all tourism, boating activities, fishing and animal sight seeing benefits. This could easily have been developed into a major activity in the area, similar to Yercaud or Ooty/Mudhumalai. Both those areas are worth roughly Rs 10,000 crore to the TN economy. Being right next to the Theni plains this could have easily become a far more important money spinning venture. This from a dam Kerala did not build and does not pay to maintain.

It is the tragedy of Kerala that it does not develop the benefits that belong to it from the treaty and rather covets TN's benefits. Not only that, the recent Thekkady lake accident findings showed that maintenance standards are shoddy and unmonitored by Kerala government. After that tragedy, where 46 out-state tourists died it is going to be an uphill battle to increase tourism. Kerala would do well to develop its benefits rather than scare monger. If TN had it rest assured it would have become another Rs10,000 crore area like Kodai, with all the problems that might bring..

R Iyer saab mentioned about getting away from an over dependence on waters from KL.

This is not even funny if you understand some of the history of how critical this water is. People in Kerala have no memory of starvation. TN does. It will take one good drought to spill blood over this water.

[Bade]

Theo, the tyranny of KL is just in the minds of the people of TN. I wonder what the allegations would have been if Achutha Menon had not renewed the old lease. He could very well have. It is counter productive on your part to accuse KL while enjoying the benefits of water resources at a pittance from the state. This is a very 'commie' mentality often looked down upon in other contexts by arguments made before. Why should the people of KL be resigned to an agreement made before if their needs change with time. Clearly, those water starved districts of TN have been so for centuries and people have either lived there with the shortages, of maybe more have moved in there since the plentiful supply of water over the last 100 years or so.

I have been to Ooty multiple times and having seen the degradation over the last 20 years alone, I do not wish it upon the rest of the western ghats. No I have not been to Thekkady or Munnar for that matter to compare the two, but definitely from superficial pics of the region it does not look devastated as Ooty feels.

[Bade]

Not to mention people all around have said the geography of KL ensures fresh water wastage to the oceans, so on that count fresh water can be diverted at will. From an environmental point of view this a long term disaster waiting to happen, might not even take 999 years to see its effects. Fresh water outflow keeps the salinity levels of the backwaters low. Run of river dams at least do change whole sale the total volume of flow, though it becomes restricted to seasonal flushing of the backwaters. Any major diversion like we have now does much more ecological damage, than people arguing from TN side are willing to admit. The argument also applies to dams KL may build without looking into all these aspects, and not just ingineering and potential energy issues of how much power can be extracted.

[Theo_Fidel]

Bade,

There is no tyranny. I used the word tragedy. Please read more carefully.

It is your choice not to develop Thekkady. I agree Ooty is overused, but only because there are few other developed options. All the mass scale hill station options are in TN. Ooty, Kodai, Yercaud, etc. Kerala tends to stay elite. AFAIK Kerala does not have a single mass option that the middle class (read SDRE) can use and has no interest in allowing that market. This is your choice don't blame us for it and say you don't have any benefits.

There is nothing commie about pre-existing use. In fact it is very commie to pretend that the benefits belonging to others should belong to the 'people' and to try and evict the owners. I have family on both sides of Ghats and your attitude is reprehensible. Most Keralites I meet have some memory of what famine and drought in TN is like. Never heard a single Keralite begrudge the water TN gets. Never hear a single word about getting more 'benefits'.

[Bade]

Theo, you are putting words and attributing that to me. How your family has roots has little relevance to this discussion.

The waters of the Periyar have always flowed down to the Arabian sea for millenia. The pre-existing use of its waters for irrigation in TN is only a century old. I do not see how it gives total rights to TN to use it as it wishes into the future. TN is getting water simply due to the largesse of KL.

As for tourism, it is for KL to decide whether it wants to open the pristine ghats to wanton tourism so that the SDRE can defile it as they see it fit. No sir, it not the SDRE's right to destroy whatever is left without some amount of regulation. Too bad if only the privileged few can enjoy it. It was so for as far back in time, as one can go.

People of KL including me here have not said no water for TN, but all these wild allegations and accusations are making us think twice before giving away a resource for free or almost at our expense. The unaccounted expense is ecological doom in the long term, safety maybe in the short term where individuals who live now feel. Both are important.

No one has so far explained how people survived over many centuries in those water starved areas of TN before Periyar was diverted. It remains a mystery, considering that fear of famines is being bandied about loosely now. If there were perennial shortages, why did people choose to live there continually.

[Theo_Fidel]

The waters of the Periyar have always flowed down to the Arabian sea for millenia. The pre-existing use of its waters for irrigation in TN is only a century old. I do not see how it gives total rights to TN to use it as it wishes into the future. TN is getting water simply due to the largesse of KL.

That is merely your opinion nothing more. Legally and historically this stand is weak and irrelevant.

[Bade]

I can see why legally it is weak in the current context of how law is described and used, but historically there is no evidence that people in TN depended on Periyar water for anything.

If people who lived in the hills later moved down to the plains, they still do not own the Periyar water they used while in the hills. If they moved to the hills from the plains, when the Briturds built those plantations, then what right of water use can they claim in the adjoining districts below the hills. People who continue to live in the hills, wherever they may have come from can use the waters in situ, others do not get rights based on relations and migration of sub-populations to the water shed areas. This is very illogical.

The only verifiable truth is the historic flow of the water and it is a pity that is not considered legal evidence in a court. It shows the weaknesses of the judicial system that such evidence is considered immaterial.

[Theo_Fidel]

Bade,

By that logic why should the people of Kochi enjoy piped Periyar water. They didn't historically. And why are there 35 Million Mallus crammed into a land 1/4 the size of TN. They didn't historically. Why are they leaving to find land elsewhere. They should stay put and enjoy their historical availability of land. Why irrigate Pallakad and Mandya. People starved historically let them continue to starve.

[Bade]

So it does become relative needs of various population groups, isn't it ? So why be fixated on a given source which provided for a period of time (when it was favorable) to last for ever by the same logic.

What is in it for KL now or in the near future ?

[Bade]

Theo, there is another flaw in your last comparison of people with natural resources and its distribution.

People have migrated at will everywhere till artificial boundaries of state, religion or language got imposed. What you are trying to argue for is more of this restriction, if natural resources are not diverted as you wish to benefit only a segment of the population. I have never argued for indiscriminate restrictions to migration within India or even outside of it.

Let us say hypothetically, TN and KL agree to remove all boundaries and repopulate all of TN with people from KL and let KL lay barren and rape its natural resources. Excellent leveraging of resources one would think. Would people of TN agree to that with imminent dilution to their cultural identity along with this merger. So all things are not just last hundred year use, as TN will claim greater paternity to all of malayali culture based on its 5000+ yr history as many have done so in BR, jest or seriousness, one can never tell.

So what is wrong with the view that Periyar's flow is a Nx1000 years old history and should not be diverted at great ecological cost to the western coast of the peninsula.

[Theo_Fidel]

So what is wrong with the view that Periyar's flow is a Nx1000 years old history and should not be diverted at great ecological cost to the western coast of the peninsula.

It is only a personal view. No data to back up and certainly none of the recent history.

Is Kerala the only state allowed this benefit. The Kaveri, Krishna and Pennar no longer reach the oceans while everyone benefits from the grain produced. How come SDRE are openly welcome to Ooty but not Thekkady. Is this policy or Kerala laziness in developing its economic potential. I'm sorry but living in Kanya Kumari district I see this 'dog in the manger' attitude all the time. Not dissimilar to the Kerala practise of Nooku Kooli. To the rest of the world it sounds bizarre but normal from the Kerala perspective. You are merely trying to institutionalize it by calling everything else commie this or that. Every other state is busting its a$$ and exploiting every economic asset it has to feed and clothe its population but Kerala exports it labor and pretends it is completely independent. Take Dileep's attitude, I have money so all Keralites have money and farmers are dogs to do my bidding.

The sum total of your argument is heading towards - Kerala wants to benefit without doing any work. Rentier state.

[Bade]

Theo, so no geological evidence exists that periyar water flows mostly through KL and into the Arabian Sea. One learns new things on BR far ahead of the normal curve.

Is not TN exporting people to Gelf too, well before that to British plantations, and Sri Lankan one, not to mention Malaysia. So what is your point ?

[StanSavljevic]

Bade miyan, regarding the tyranny of judiciary: LOL, the top layer commie-speak dont guffaw such nonsense. I have heard such nonsense from only the low layer apparatchiks who neither understand proper sloganeering nor communism for what it was meant for. May be you need a civics 101 lesson in why is there a Judiciary, an Executive and a Legislature in the Indian context? If the Judiciary is so tyrannical, why does Kerala even a High Court and district level magistrate-courts? It is tyrannical of only having the Supreme Court, hain? And that too, when judgments go the wrong way, hain hain?!

Regarding the morality of a 999 year lease agreement: Even within India, there are many such agreements. 1) The Teen Bigha Corridor was handed over to BD in a 999 y lease in 1991-92 if I remember right.
2)

Consider the case of Kumar Mangalam Birla, owner of Century Textile Mill that got 10 acres in Worli in 1897 from Wadia’s great-grandfather Nowrosjee Wadia on a 999-year lease for a monthly rent of Rs 375. Now Wadia — who inherited the property in 1996 — wants it back.

http://www.tehelka.com/story_main44.asp ... ing_to.asp
3)

Lincoln House was originally Wankaner House, a sprawling property of the royalty, which was leased to the US government for Rs 18 lakh in 1957. Today, its value is being worked out to be anywhere between Rs 1,500 crore and Rs 1,800 crore. "Once belonging to the Maharaja of Wankaner Pratapsinhji (his father), this 8,345 sq m plot was given on a 999-year lease to the US government," Jhala added. "They have full control over it now." He says he does not have any lease documents with him now and does not plan to challenge the sale.

http://m.timesofindia.com/PDATOI/articl ... 686285.cms
4)

Royal Opera House, also known as Opera House in Mumbai (formerly Bombay), is India's only surviving opera house.
...
There after the premises has been acquired by the erstwhile princely state of Gondal family on a 999 year lease.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Oper ... 8Mumbai%29
5) Land is given to the army/defence organizations many times on a 999 y lease
http://afternoondc.in/city-news/dont-gi ... icle_43910

Not to mention Singapore, China and for a long time Malaysia used to hand over land on 999 y leases. If you want to contest the legality of such agreements, the proper venue is the same tyrannical Judiciary . If you want to contest the morality, well, we will have to start with the morality of every other act in India including corruption, PDS, capitalism vs socialism, bureaucracy, noisy democrazy, Westminster style democracy over Presidential democracy, first-past-the-post vs round-robin, paper ballots vs EVMs, etc. Game for it?

[Bade]

Stan-saar, then why do people appeal to judgments already passed in one court lower level and go to a higher court. So why not get rid of all low level courts onlee, no ? Yes saar you can start with your monotonic civic lessons for techie coolies with no idea of sociology, might learn something. But find it difficult to understand this need for hierarchy for courts if judgments are equally kosher and balanced.

OK SC is another top dog, but even TN has gone with appeals and counter appeals no, in this dispute and others too ? But again I digress, this lease is between a non-existent state and another non-existent state from what my fizziks brain can see. Pliss to be enlightened by the wisdoms of law and letters onlee.

[Bade]

Better to read some real science, than legal mumbo-jumbo based on precedence and built on a pack of cards ready to fall if one is disturbed from its pedestal. Reality as understood by the tools of science is more closer to the truth than any legal make believe, to understand the range of issues that underlies water usage and how one goes about it and monitors and regulates it.

http://www.disasterresearch.net/drvc201 ... per_36.pdf

The section on seawater ingress is worth a read, as well as other issues. If KL waters have such issues wonder what the situation is in TN with its more pro-capital attitude like,

Every other state is busting its a$$ and exploiting every economic asset it has to feed

[Stan_Savljevic]

But again I digress, this lease is between a non-existent state and another non-existent state from what my fizziks brain can see. Pliss to be enlightened by the wisdoms of law and letters onlee.

Boss, please see what the SC judgment said on this very precise thing. Let me go out on a limb and do the ggl search for you: http://www.scribd.com/doc/45113896/Mull ... ent-270206

Pichi-kichu can be this that, legal matters are no pichi-kichu, otherwise we can all do the LHC experiment with IPC on the left hand and the Constitution on the right. Or have you come to this conclusion seeing the nukular pattapattis of brf who use excel spreadsheet as their main weapon? There are precedents, ambits and there are parallels in similarly enshrined legal systems. And then there is legal common sense that a contrary judgment on a prayer/submission can lead to. To me, the language is clear on what the ownership/legality of the lease agreement is. It is for you to figure out what the legalese says. If you refuse, it is noone's problem. GoK is standing on wafer-thin ground to contest the lease agreement, it was always an out of the ballpark argument to start with. If we started contesting every agreement made before the Instrument of Accession was signed, we are gonna have a big big headache and infinitely many in what is now TN and what is now Kerala nonetheless. I can start a list, but guess what, lets call that for another day, shall we?

There is a reason why every minister in the Kerala cabinet wants a new lease agreement with a new dam. It is just arrant common sense to see this. That is the ONLY way in which Kerala can find a way to get over the "stranglehold" or "unfairness" of TN. If you again refuse to see, just the silly matter that the other party is going to be stubborn in its stand. You want safety, well we can discuss this, there may be even a solution that is acceptable for both sides. You dont care about water, wonderful, thanks, awesome, generous, nice. You want to change the lease deed, well well well, lets stick to our guns. At the end of the day, "Safety for Kerala, water for TN" all sounds fine if it was just as simple as that two-way street. It never was safety and it never was water. Even the SC judgment says so, you can see page page 12 of the aforesaid document. The question is: why is TN a paki* state if it believes that Kerala politicians are bullshitting? That is for Dileep to answer .

* Actually, paki-ness is fine. In fact, I will go out on a limb and say, Indians are pakis and pakis are Indians much to the chagrin of the pak-e-dhaaga stalwarts of the forum including SSridhar mian. We have built our very lives comparing ourselves and laughing at the pakis so much, that deep down, we have made the India-pak == more than the bhest oiseaules have made of us. Here is a simbil solution: ignore the paki mofos already . Pakis are the least of our problems if you do a proper assessment of our issues at hand, the mofos will suicide emselves and all we need to do is put in less and less effort on them. Can we do that? We cant, easy for me 2 say that. Heh, thats a war for another lame day and I can pull up SSridhar saar on this later. One war at a time .

[Theo_Fidel]

Bade,

Please to read carefully again.

WRT Periyar your claim was that the sediment/water from MullaPeriyar water is holding up your coast.'Great ecological damage'. Do you have data to back this up? Esp. that it is due to Mulla Periyar? Where does it say that. FYI Mulla periyer diversion is only about 1/20 the flow in Periyar.

WRT TN labor, without it plantations are non-viable. As TN labor has gotten expensive, agriculture in Kerala has gone Phut! Plantations need the captive cheap labor. Cheap labor can go anywhere.

[Bade]

Sea water ingress is not a mulla-periyar only issue per se, it is due to upstream damming and seen in other river basins too. So it is a general statement applicable to all dams. It may be 1/20 the flow now, but will it remain at that level for 999 years ?

I was falling off my chair reading the SC link posted by Stan on the dam and its positive effects for ecosystem. I do hope they have a real ecologist or environmentalist to back that all up.

[Stan_Savljevic]

Boss, all that is ok. I assume you read the part that concerns the ownership issue/lease agreement. Page 10 onwards.

[Bade]

Boss all that is fine, so what happens when the dam falls in say 799 years. What does your interpretation of the law say ?

I see a possibility from a casual reading of pg 10 a second time around, that the center can re-organize states at will. So why not combine TN and KL and solve the problem for good. No lease required, damages in the event of a break to be borne by the new state. KL people do not have to worry about buying land in TN, only drawback is no more Tamil as the sole language. I can live with that, if I can get other tangential benefits in the process.

[Stan_Savljevic]

Boss, sure, why not. What better way to get rid of the DK/*MK thugs than that? I am all game for this and that. Why I am even game to break So. TN away from the Madras-centered North so that some prosperity can be had. Thats what I believe personally, but then the state govt and the other people can and will believe a 108 things. The issue is not that.

If you talk safety, keep talking safety alone. If you bring in lease deed, there goes your legitimate whine profile. Lease deed is not safety. Lease deed is just bs. Claims of unfairness, illegitimacy etc. are thrown about quite randomly. The Maharaja was generous, very generous in fact. Because he probably realized the suffering this side of the divide. If you want to resolve this issue within that kinda framework, may be the two sides can meet and reach a solution. If the lease deed is the main issue, sorry, there is going to be stalling. I know you and me are not solving any issues here, but I say what I see. There is no solution to the lease deed except the SC, its a property dispute and there are many such property disputes in India. Safety is a real or a perceived issue and this needs to be handled on its own merit and within proper technical feasibilities. Kerala and its people are mixing the two, especially things on which there have been previous judgments and clinging on to some random morals which dont exist in running a state, and rightly they are not getting the attention from TN side. Separate the two, you want safety alone, and lets see if the TN side still stalls. Then, we will see whether TN is paki or not. Hide beneath semantics and I am sure TN is happy to be called paki or puki or whatever. Yea, whatever.