Bharat Rakshak

Sea water ingress is not a mulla-periyar only issue per se, it is due to upstream damming and seen in other river basins too. So it is a general statement applicable to all dams. It may be 1/20 the flow now, but will it remain at that level for 999 years ?

I was falling off my chair reading the SC link posted by Stan on the dam and its positive effects for ecosystem. I do hope they have a real ecologist or environmentalist to back that all up.

Boss, all that is ok. I assume you read the part that concerns the ownership issue/lease agreement. Page 10 onwards.

Boss all that is fine, so what happens when the dam falls in say 799 years. What does your interpretation of the law say ?

I see a possibility from a casual reading of pg 10 a second time around, that the center can re-organize states at will. So why not combine TN and KL and solve the problem for good. No lease required, damages in the event of a break to be borne by the new state. KL people do not have to worry about buying land in TN, only drawback is no more Tamil as the sole language. I can live with that, if I can get other tangential benefits in the process.

Boss, sure, why not. What better way to get rid of the DK/*MK thugs than that? I am all game for this and that. Why I am even game to break So. TN away from the Madras-centered North so that some prosperity can be had. Thats what I believe personally, but then the state govt and the other people can and will believe a 108 things. The issue is not that.

If you talk safety, keep talking safety alone. If you bring in lease deed, there goes your legitimate whine profile. Lease deed is not safety. Lease deed is just bs. Claims of unfairness, illegitimacy etc. are thrown about quite randomly. The Maharaja was generous, very generous in fact. Because he probably realized the suffering this side of the divide. If you want to resolve this issue within that kinda framework, may be the two sides can meet and reach a solution. If the lease deed is the main issue, sorry, there is going to be stalling. I know you and me are not solving any issues here, but I say what I see. There is no solution to the lease deed except the SC, its a property dispute and there are many such property disputes in India. Safety is a real or a perceived issue and this needs to be handled on its own merit and within proper technical feasibilities. Kerala and its people are mixing the two, especially things on which there have been previous judgments and clinging on to some random morals which dont exist in running a state, and rightly they are not getting the attention from TN side. Separate the two, you want safety alone, and lets see if the TN side still stalls. Then, we will see whether TN is paki or not. Hide beneath semantics and I am sure TN is happy to be called paki or puki or whatever. Yea, whatever.

I believe in if you cannot defeat them them join them and break them from the inside. It always works if one knows how to do it. I know it is wishful thinking in this case, because the swords are drawn.

When I was in KL, the only thing I heard was safety. To me personally ownership is more important to address all issue. If the constitution throws the spanner, then subvert it other ways from within it. Make super sets of everything and throw it all back at the center. Free movement across the whole of India, and no more local jingoism. I am all for it so will most migrant types.

Long time back, I was teased in KL bus stand for being non-native malloo speaking.. I do understand malayalam, but I can't speak back. I was attacked in chennai, TN, thinking I came from NI, and we (3 friends) were note speaking tamil. Though I did not face similar problems in KA, I never felt first class citizen as many kanndigas would not consider me pure kannad. Mumbai, I am all feeling out paced, and delhi I get harassed with foul language if I asked about a bus route and destination.

India all over, we had issues of these sorts. I hope things have matured now.

I am told Vaikol and his people are still not allowing any kind of traffic across the palakkad gap by road. Do not know about train services, but how come the CRPF is not sent to the border to disperse off these rowdy elements in the first place.

It is time to para-drop mallus into TN as the next step. Well at least dummies wearing lungi. Let us see if Vaikol can do a air blockade.

So where does the constitution stand on blocking inter-state traffic flow when it has gone to great lengths to ensure inter-state water flow.

It is one thing to block vegetable deliveries to KL, but why are all sorts of private vehicles being allowed to be blocked for almost two weeks now. Even the good old robinhood Veerappan was more civilized in behavior than the current crop of TN politicians and their supporters.

SaiK, if it is any consolation for you, I used to be picked upon for speaking Malayalam like a chettiar. You get over it. But the worse was in TN when you asked the only reply was in Tamil, and the tone not so friendly. The only place I found myself made to feel as a true second class citizen in India was right there in Madras, despite being a metro. Dunno much about other cities in TN, though people whom I knew very closely had a very different personality. So when people encounter strangers, they behave their worst is what I concluded from that experience. Very different from other places in India, including the wild Naarth.

As expected Mullaperiyar and Idukki Dams safe, Experts tell Panel

And logically too, Kerala's Please to reduce water level rejected

And as agreed by the Empowered Committee ..None of the tremors had any effect on Mullaperiyar :TN

What I am indirectly saying is.. Bade, we are truly not a single country. We are composite, and hence WE would never feel it unless we are part of central command or the forces. Dividing states by languages was bad, and at the same it was good as well for resolving many other things.

Inter linking of rivers can solve certain aspects of the larger issue. Water is going to be Uno Security killer of the future. It can destroy us within, if we don't plan ahead.

I am bit confused. Or are the two dailies kind of giving it a small spin.
Today's head lines in Mathrubhumi.
http://epaper.mathrubhumi.com/epapersto ... 2012-.aspx (പുതിയ അണക്കെട്ടിന് കളമൊരുങ്ങുന്നു. ജല നിരപ്പ് 120 അടി ആക്കില്ല). 'All set for a new Dam. The water level would not be set with 120 feet mark'.
Today's headlines in 'The Hindu'
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... epage=true . 'Mullaperiyar, Idukki dams safe, experts tell panel'

So what is the truth?

All that the Hindu report is saying is that there is no new damage to the dam from the recent small quakes, which is believable of course. But that is not the central issue, no ?

From what I could understand from the Hindu report was that Kerala's plea to reduce the water level to 120 ft was chucked out. And the Hindu report did not have any words which meant there is some progress in the plan for a new dam (പുതിയ ഡാമിനു കളമൊരുങ്ങൽ).

Yes, even the mathrubhoomi and manorama Inglees edition had reports on the new dam. Hindu has not covered it. Who knows what is the real truth.

I do not see technically why TN should have any issue with another dam, if the old one remains under their lease term for 999 years or till it breaks. But I suspect, what the center will do is play along with the new dam proposal to give KL some sop, and then deny on environmental grounds. Usual politics and nothing to do with constitution and legalism, which are mere tools to do more politics. So what is new.

The question isn't if Kerala is ready for Joint control. The question is if TN is ready for Joint control.

If Kerala is not certain TN is ready for that they should not unilaterally announce. Almost guarantee they will not get it.

All of that is good, but if I read the news correctly KL was given time till this Friday to respond to questions on ownership. If TN has refused to talk on this matter for so long, there is no hope to meet with TN to make a joint declaration, no ?

Bade Mian. All the supreme court asked was responses from the respective states their views on control , IF (now just hypothetical) a new dam comes up.

Now , the Kerala folks and media spun it as a "step towards a new dam" , while downplaying the REAL set back they have seen to their case in the empowered committee which is all set to declare the fears of kerala as highly exaggerated and nay even motivated and engineered, and a rejection of kerala's plea of lowering the water level to 120 ft and hence explicitly throwing out of the window Kerala's contention that that the current storage is "unsafe".

Kerala can spin all it wants, but the "35 lakh people getting washed away " and "New Dam, New Dam, Damn it, New Dam" slogans are going to run on the reefs at the supreme court. Oh, you will get assured safety all right (either they are okay with the strengthening measures , or they will okay other technical measures like new tunnel and lower permanent storage), but I doubt you will EVER get the "new agreement" that Kerala is looking for. Problem is that once the "safety bogey" is put to rest, you have no more levers to pull and get the kerala population to fall in line like lemmings to the politoco mechanizations.

For eg, why will any Mallu give a F*ck when a politico says we need to spend $x billion and build a new dam which will give water to TN and nothing at all to Kerala (not even electricity) to gain "control". Sorry, the avg mallu wont even pause from taking his sip of Kallu and drag of beedi and infact once done so will spit. It is only fear mongering that can get people worked up. So once that is put to rest, this will die down.

So , dont worry, have curry.

Moral of the story is never ever cede control of anything on long leases, even if it means your blood will have to be shed. Giving away water is not the issue, but only a fool will part with control and on that count both Menon and Varma fell short by all measures.

Maybe, the Karna story has not seeped in to the SDRE psyche after all these years. A real pity.

Point taken. The people are only getting worked up because of the fear factor in it. Have been seeing lots of photo shopped images on what Kerala would be if the dam bursts. But if Kerala insists that it would build a new dam, at its own cost and then happly agree to for a tri-party ownership (Kerala, TN and Central. Govt to boot) many people would start questioning the rationale behind it. Why should Kerala put in money in building some thing in which it has no major stake?

I feel in this case only thing to prove would be that the dam is unsafe, in very clear cut measurable terms. Or else people would soon think that the new dam is a way to siphon off funds (after all the maximum swindling of funds happen, when new structures are built from the scratch).

The EC report was foreseen. Thatte and Mehta came, and started giving instructions to TN officials on the 'work to be done'. They did nothing to evaluate the quake damage. It was Thatte who made the recommendations for the 'pancake and grease paint' treatment for strengthening the dam, so it has become a prestige issue for him. I would be darn surprised if he changes his opinion even after the dam is washed away. He will find some excuse to cover his folly.

Vina, the "new tunnel and store water in TN" proposal is perfectly acceptable to GoKL. The problem is, they are not, and don't want to look like MORONS, because there is no facility in TN to store the water. IF GoTN proposes it, I can bet that GoKL will gladly accept it. GoKL will become the laughing stock if they propose it.

Given the yumBeeYea credentials and the spellbinding chankian intellect you have, my SDRE brain says that is what EXACTLY you have in mind. Make GoKL look like morons. Thanks, but no thanks.

I do not agree to the current proposal made by Oommen Chandy. TN can not have the cake and eat it too. I am fine with TN taking all water if TN spends the money. You can't take my tax money, build a dam, and let TN take all the water (and laugh at me). No. We are not THAT stoopid.

BTW, Vaikol said that P. J. Joseph said he will build roads with the stones from Mullaperiyar. That guy Vaikol is as a menace to humanity as his chaddi buddy V Pirapaharan (RIH). Joseph was talking about the problems and solutions of dismantling the old dam AFTER THE NEW DAM IS BUILT!!

The said Politcian was thought he was the Heir apparent to Dr. Artiste till 1998 or so, till Dr artiste asked him to buzz off and all inheritances are for family. In 2011 assembly elections he was proved to be a non entity in neither faction. He is a desperate man making a desperate last stand with all his money. No TN politician will openly oppose him but they know given 1 month he will run out funds and disappear into oblivion. His only hope is poor monsoons and somehow magically water does not come to TN for 2 years. Otherwise he is kaput and is using rabble rousing tactics hoping it will work.

What stops the Central Govt from taking over the ownership of this dam and the leased area. All responsibilities of proper and fair use then lies with it. States could still bicker, but it would look more fairer as relatively neutral party, politics aside.

Since the lease was given to the Madras Presidency, isn't the center a party to the inheritance. In special cases like this one, that would be the optimal approach for any resolution in the long term.

If Mullaiperiyar is a interstate river o river valley then Art.262 could be invoked. But it is not.
Water is a state Subject (Sl no 17 in State list 7th Schedule) unless it is interstate.

"17. Water, that is to say, water supplies, irrigation and canals, drainage
and embankments, water storage and water power subject to the provisions
of entry 56 of List I."

Lease is nothing . KL has right to abrogate it.
Validity of lease has been explained by SC, but say nothing about ownership.

I think ownership was not the issue beofre SC. It is mainly safety as formulated in SC judgement. Question abt Ownership rights before Sc would take the fight to a different plane. I think it is not KL's intention to deny use of waters to TN which it can not use productively and would go waste.

I also think that conduct of the Technical sub committee members of Empowered Committee failed to infuse confidence in parties. SC should appoint new members.

KL had expressed no-confidence on Thatte (not sure about Mehta, but he seems to be a silent spectator). SC had forced his membership, not sure why. That no-confidence is vindicated by his behaviour during the recent visit. His mandate was to inspect for damages caused by the recent quakes. If he had any sense of the immense responsibility he had on his shoulders, he would have kept his trap shut, and made whatever report he wanted, (like the quakes had actually made the rocks settle down and made the dam stronger)

Would he do that? Nope!! He started giving a number of instructions to TN officials on various things to be done in order to raise the water level to 155, including comments like "let me know who from KL objects to this". He also asks the chief engineer of KL to "shut up". This clearly shows where he stands, what his class is, and his sense of being a neutral adjudicator.

No sah!! I am not going to trust him, and I don't think even Vina and Stan would ask me to.

So is this about the 2% of total catchment area claimed in Durai's (ex-MDK minister) article published by the HIndu and linked in pages above, in reply to Iyer's original article stating Periyar is not a inter-state river ?

But all this has no bearing on the status of the lease and its validity, isn't it, as argued by Stan and Vina. If KL can abrogate the lease term as you stated above, then why does it not choose that route, other than lack of balls as has been said before. Are there other legal reasons, or is it just politics and some understanding exists between the kangress in KL and center not to stoke the fire any more than is required for the time being.

Regarding lease validity, as of now there is no question about it nor has it been raised since KL has accepted it in 1970.
Lease abrogation is a legal business and unless there are grounds to do so, such act would not stand scrutiny. KL can do it in two ways. One is violation of lease conditions. Second is by exercise of its legislative power. SO far KL has not raised violation of lease conditions, just the safety issues and unless that gets settled lease can not be annulled. TN apprehends ( in my opinion) that New Dam may no be covered under the lease and same terms and conditions would not be applied to it.
There is no point in claiming it to be an interstate river issue. That would give more firepower to KL and it can claim to exercise legislative power to throw out lease. Border closing and fighting strike interstate commerce are something that would find its own ways to get settled. But Politicians , esp current lot, do not have balls to discuss issues honestly and settle the mater amicably. In any case KL can't use water productively.

Since KL is in INC fold Mullaperiyar issue could be a counter to KKNPP protest which is ostensibly supported by TN state Govt. INC has nothing to loose in TN except its pants. But if Mullaperiyar gets settled in favour of KL INC would hold it for long time, methinks.

Another point of view


Communal angle in Mullaperiyar Dam controversy

^^^ I seriously doubt there is any religious angle at all in this dam row. That article is a load of BS. CT theories are easy to manufacture, just as much as the Kangress politics referred to two posts above including by me, though it is more believable. If you honestly ask me even Kerala Hindus who have been going to sabarimala for years, privately do confide that they do not like the current atmosphere in temples all over Kerala and that includes even Guruvayur. Of course the temple authorities are happy with increased darshan and funds at all temples, but locals are less than thrilled to see a crowd anytime of the day or year one visits the local temples.

Now one could extend this anecdotal data collected at grass-roots and go on to write an article about how KL hindus are responsible for the dam row as they do not want TN hindus to visit Sabarimala.

Indeed! Selective reading isn't it ? What about the MISSING part of the article, you DIDN'T post ?

Thanks to Gus, I got my copy of the Tughlaq edition where MP is discussed. Here are some anecdotes:

1) When efforts were being made by TN to strengthen the structure of the baby dam, Kerala department of forests put a string of cases against officers from the TN side as well as contractors implementing the project. When this became a TN-Kerala issue, Kerala used the sub-judice nature of the case to ensure that the baby dam could not be strengthened. A circular argument if there was ever one. This was the immediate reason why TN went to Supreme Court in 2006 even though the unilateral act in the Kerala Assembly is often cited as the main reason.
2) The Idukki project was completed in 1975 with the hope that 780 MW of power will be generated. When only 200 MW was generated in the first few years, the Kerala govt started eyeing the reduction of MP water level as the only hope for more power from Idukki. Famous among these attempts is the October 16, 1979 report in Malayala Manorama of how MP is becoming dangerous due to earthquakes, the first instance of such a report.
3) CWC chairman KC Thomas made a statement on 23 November 1979 that MP structure is safe, but two days later he went to Trivandrum and makes a statement that the MP structure needs to be strengthened. Noone has understood the source for these contrary declarations by the CWC head that led to the stalemate.
4) 50% of the power generated in KKM is destined for Kerala, a certain fraction of the power generated in Neyveli too is marked for Kerala use. So it is a case of water for electricity vs. water for agriculture and drinking, the debate has rather been skewed as safety vs. agriculture and drinking, which is not true.
5) Kerala has not allowed any scientific study to investigate the hypothesis that higher frequency of earthquakes seen in the Idukki district is because of water storage in the Idukki project. The TN side believes this hypothesis could explain the surge in 2-3 seismic level earthquakes.

Overall, the Thuglaq pieces give the firm indication that TN Government authorities are not sucking their thumbs at logic. Here is a standard refrain from ministerial sources: "Kerala on its part went unilateral and passed an Act in the Assembly that over-ruled the SC judgment. In contrast, the course for inter-State disputes can only be handled by Sec. 131 of the Constitution. This is not only bizarre, but also contrary to how legal matters are handled, esp inter-State matters. Even more bizarre is the fact that a Constitution bench has to take 5 years (2006-2011) to figure out the illegality of this unilateral action.

What guarantee is there for us to trust the Kerala word that they will guarantee water for eternity? Tomorrow they will cite a different reason and put a temporary stop to water or even reduce the quantum of water flowing to TN saying drought/famine conditions on the Kerala side. In short, we will be left fiddling our thumbs just like how KA is doing despite the tribunal award. From being 100% in control of the water, we will be left to handle the shenanigans of Kerala and their domestic disputes. One party will up the ante and propagandize that the Kerala govt is being held captive to a word of honor without due regards to its electing constituency and then the govt will follow suit. We dont want any such nonsense, thanks already."

But is'nt this case with TN as well? Dont you think Amma would also have to think a lot before taking any decision. Because the opposition at TN would also bay for her blood, if "they" feel the deal did not go in favour of TN? Kerala, I am sure the politicians would use this as a tool for ever. Especially if any agreement is reached by this government. Propoganda machinery of the commies will work over time to achieve this.

PS: I read it in a book about the conflict in Sri Lanka (by an IPKF officer). He notes that in many cases the elected Sri Lankan government of the day could not do much, because the Sri Lankan opposition parties would use this as a political tool to throw them out of power. Each party had to prove that it was more "Sinhala" than the other.

The FRL and MRL are designed based on the policy that the new dam should have the same level spec as the old dam. It is in fact a compromise to pre-empt a bigg objection by TN. If the dam design is made with MRL at 136 and FRL, say 142, TN is going to cry murder, and reject the proposal outright. The 160FRL is just to defuse that. The dam is not expected to be filled to that level.

Poor KL babus still think that Vaikol and co will see reason. Pity on them!!

The new dam will provide the same 136ft MRL. At this level, a small additional area below the current dam will be submerged, which is insignificant compared to the current area occupied by water. All these crying about ecosystem etc are just an argument of convenience, which is obviously locked up when demanding to raise the water.

The spillway capacity is also specified on the same way. It is designed to take care of the specified inflow. The statement about the population etc is an advance answer to the question "why didn't you design a spillway to accommodate the maximum flood?" which TN is going to ask anyway.

Bottom line is, the new dam design clearly is able to store and deliver the same amount of water as today. Rest is just arguments and counter arguments.

Again, there is already a treaty that is precisely how Kerala wants this treaty to be re-written. The Parambikulam-Aliyar treaty. What is the status you ask. Un-renewed for 25 years as Kerala makes new demands which means improvements and changes in design are now impossible. The treaty is essentially in limbo right now.

Impossible to see any TN government wanting to move to that model.

Also WRT Siruvani water, let keep in mind this was a water exchange. Kerala was given water from the upper Bhavani, in fact roughly 3 times as much as Coimbatore has received on average IIRC. Someone from Kovai might know the details better.

WRT Parambikulam the catchment is in TN hence water diversion agreement. I'm sure Dileep will disagree with this as well.

Sure, thats the case with every government including GoI. Noone is holy here, which is precisely my point. Couching it as Kerala is only keen on safety and TN is only keen on Keralites' lack of safety is not true on the ground. It is a water for electricity vs. water for agriculture + drinking issue and then there are some people who talk of safety primarily as an afterthought to be charitable. There were no talks of safety till 1979, which is amusing for the silly fact that earthquakes which can and do occur infinitely in the past and will do so in the future.

But the other small fact here is that GoK has unilaterally passed an Act in the Assembly to contravene the SC judgment on a very specific issue. Not on some general matter in the debate. And the SC has appointed an Empowered Panel which is sitting on this matter for years and will do so for at least 1-2 years. So what happens to justice in the intervening period? Next time, we have an issue, what happens to status quo if status quo is unilaterally voidable by one party. As of now, GoTN cant alter status quo cos the dam structure is in Kerala and GoK cant do much but ask GoTN to reduce the water level because that will push things too far to be controlled. But lets say GoK has joint control, the equilibrium is pushed to Kerala's control completely. It will be the party in charge and heck, it will alter things as it suits them independent of other's perception of ground realities. There lies the rub to this matter.

TN will have no hold on this matter but to use chips on its side (which means illegal nonsense such as blockading trucks and sabre-rattling on electricity etc.) to let GoK see reason. Even the iron-clad SC judgment is not safe not because they are not per se safe, but because you can temporarily halt any judgment by appeals and counter-appeals whereas in the meanwhile it becomes a livelihood matter for some. There is absolutely nothing to compromise for TN, this is as much as I can see. As the status quo-ist party in this dispute, GoTN has good reason to not trust GoK on this matter. Even GoK should not trust GoTN on this matter 100%, it is only rational. Overnight the game has changed from rational-player cooperative non-zero sum game to an irrational-player non-cooperative zero sum game. So who is responsible for this eventuality? There are no one party culprits here. TN will stick to its position till kingdom come if it has any sensibility and Kerala will too, that is just the natural reaction. That is how things will proceed as much as I can predict. And this stalemate shall continue till something on the ground changes, as in an EP recommendation (oops!) that is binding (nice try!) and final (try even harder!) on both parties in part (duh!) as well as whole (ouch!), regime change on both sides that lets some reason into the debate (yawn!), or babajaan's unilateral and express fiat (like S-e-S or like agra peace talks!) to either (ooo!) or both parties (bla bla bla) to cut the zero summability of the positioning. I see none of the three in the short-term future, so we shall have status quo and noisiness.

Water for electricity argument goes only so far, as water is for 999 years whereas electricity is only for much lesser lifetime of the plant. So that is a fake argument to make.