Bharat Rakshak

Here are my views on this.

Why do countries issue passports? Passports are issued as identity documents that accept that the passport holder is a genuine citizen of the country in question

Why do other countries stamp/stick visas on a passport? That is to have a record on the passport that the passport holder has been given permission to travel to that country. Once the person actually travels, the visa is an indicator at the point of entry of foreign that the person has been checked out and may be allowed to enter. After that the passport is again stamped at the time of entry and departure as a permanent record of the person having entered and left the foreign country. The date and point of exit from and entry to India is also marked for the record.

What if a man does not have a valid visa stamp? Unless visa is not needed the man cannot enter the foregin country. India can stamp his passport and let him travel- but he will be kicked back by return flight/boat. That is the travellers problem

What if the man has a stapled visa? It means that the person has been given permission to enter, but the visa issuing country does not want to place on record that the man has been given permission to enter the country.

Now why would China grant a visa to a man from Aru. Pr. but not want to place it on record? That is because if they deny him permission, they are denying a person whom they call a resident of Chinese territory permission to enter China . Technically they would want all residents of Aru. Pr. to enter and leave China without visas because they are supposed to be Chinese nationals according to the corner that the Chinese have painted themselves in. The Chinese do not want to leave any mark on a passport of an Aru. Pr resident that could be used "against them" to say [i]"Ha ha you fools - claim the territory but treat its residents as foreigners and issue them visas[/i]" They are trying to have a "consistent policy" of idiotic pinpricks as if that will change anything.

How does it affect India? It is in India's interest to humiliate China here. China is caught on a cleft stick. If they refuse a visa then they are accepting that Aru Pr is foreign territory. If they stamp a visa in the passport, that is also an acceptance as a foreign national. So they give a stapled visa. India can easily accept a stapled visa. India is not interested in the visa. India is only interested in when the man leaves and enters India. They can endorse his passport and note that he has a stapled visa to China. Where he goes and his visa is his problem. India does not have to check every passport for a valid visa. The visas is for the immigration officials at the port of entry of the foreign country. By making a diplomatic incident India puts it on record that China has a silly, pointless policy in place where it actually issues a visa but does not want to admit it openly and does not have the balls to refuse a visa to all Aru Pr residents. If they do that India can retaliate by not issuing visas to some Chinese at India's pleasure. If India really wants a particular Aru Pr resident to enter China with a stamped visa India can fake the place of birth and have a separate passport for that . Pakistan does this all the time.

What if India issues stapled visas to all Chinese? That should not bother the Chinese in any way. They are not worried about whether a man going out of China has a valid visa or not. That is his problem. They only need a record of his leaving and entering their country. If the Chinese national goes to India and then courtesy RAW the Chinese is transported to say Vietnam or Taiwan and back without any papers, and then the man re-enters China legally, there is nothing that the Chinese can do about it. A stapled visa is not a problem to anyone but the traveller who needs to make sure he does not lose the piece of paper.

I would suggest that BRFites stop getting worked up over this.

Just an off topic query for those in the know. If you hold a valid green card for the USA but an Indian passport, will they let you in minus green card?

Everything is all right.
China will 'make efforts' to improve relationship with India, top Chinese official - Ananth Krishnan in The Hindu

^^^ I have not tried this stunt, but I bet India will have to let you in say if you lose the Green card in transit. You may not be able to leave out of India without a replacement green card.

To irritate the PRC one way is for India to encourage many or even all Arunachal residents to keep applying for Chinese visa. Now what will the Chinese do, will it issue them all stapled visas or will it have to deny them visa on some grounds due to overload of requests for visas and checks that they will have to do. Silly but they cannot deny, as denial implies Arunachal is part of India. One could also step it up furhter and even non-Arunachal residents could be given fake Arunachal residency passports and made to apply for chinese visas. If large number of such fraud cases are rejected by the chinese, then India could claim, see you denied them visas so it means Arunachal is not a part of China, but these are bona-fide residents and we have proof for the same.

Bade there is no need to play games deliberately. the games are on anyway and it is easy to play them. The Chinese also know it is stupid and pointless but they lose echandee. And it is right for us to make them red faced.

OT but why should Indian officials at an airport bother whether you are carrying your green card or not? It's your headache and you will be kicked back to India from the US and India will accept you as an Indian citizen. India cannot stop you from travelling if you have a passport but are not carrying your green card. The latter is your problem.

The editorial in the Indian Express demands cancellation of the trip and that the pres. of India should step in.

One can also staple visas for Chinamen,but banning them from Ar.P,the N-east states and J&K,with a stamp IN the passport! That should give a kick up the nether end of the running dogs of Zhongnanhai!

Much ado about nothing. I am sure the areas Chinese get to visit in India is already restricted - apart from the fact that they are anyway restricted in their own country. The Indian Express too is run by my fellow Indians onlee who see insults where they should not feel insulted and are demanding that the President should be insulted next. It would be a massive self goal if this issue was taken to the President.

Actually they will - first the airline itself at checkin will see what valid papers you have for travelling to said destination. so if you have no visa , no GC or stamp or papers, no phoren passport - you will not make it past check in.

The airlines are fined thousands of dollars if they allow someone without the right docs and plus their cost to take them back.



am not sure which point you mean when you say 'enter". If you do nto have it whilechecking in - you are not going anywhere till you go back to consulate etc and get app papers.

now if you lose it in between, they wil allow you provide on arrival they can find your information etc. happened to one soul who lost it somewhere in the gflight

Exactly. It is the punishment that airlines face that makes them check. This came from experience where people would reach a foreign destination minus visa, and not be let in and no airline would want to take them back, leaving the burden on the immigration authorities in the foreign port to manage. It is not an Indian emigration requirement. A stapled visa is no insult. It is just stupidity.

actually the immigration guys check - to what purpose i am not sure

like when I had GC but was going to HK first they did not care because you do not need a visa. but then when they realised I had an onwards flt to US they did ask.

In fact immigration officers have to check on what visa you are travling out of the country. One reason is to ensure that no human trafficking is taking place.

If India really wants to piss off of PRC, make an Arunachal Pradesh resident the President of India. Let that person make an official visit to China and receive future Hus in India.

Lots of intelligent people including the press see this as irritating or insulting. You may not and that is your choice. Perception also matters even if one assumes for argument purposes that this is not an insult. When you are perceived to be insulted it is also important that the other party is replied in kind.

Why would this be a self goal if this issue was taken to the President? According to my understanding the idea is to have the President cancel the visit.

At this instant in time China is politically in a corner thanks to their antics in the S China Sea and the stepped up pressure from the US and other countries in the Far East. Even TSP's attitude toward India appear to be softening (FTA). India can afford to take a strong stand in my view.

Not surprised that lots of people feel insulted. chinese actions are designed to do that and provoke a rash response that can make India look stupid.

If the President of India "steps in" (which is the suggestion that I was responding to, not a presidential visit) and asks why China refused one visa or stapled one visa, the Chinese will send a polite letter that says f*k you, those are our laws - in polite terms. What is India going to do about that? Feel more insulted I guess.

Shyam it should be possible to piss off the Chinese in many easy ways - seeing as they are already pissed off and doing completely idiotic and pointless things like issuing stapled visas or refusing visas to some Indians.

The case of the Group Captain is neither the denial of visa nor stapled visa (unlike in the case of Lt. Gen. Jaswal where a visa was denied to him). It was just that his passport was returned to him with no visa stamped on it because no citizen needs a visa to travel to another part of his/her country. In this case, if the Group Captain had gone ahead with the team, I don't know how it would have been interpreted. On the one hand, it might have amounted to the de-jure recognition by India of China's claim. Obviously, India would never do that. If they choose not to send him, as they did in this case, it sounds like backing down in the face of an inflexible Chinese opposition because Tibet is China's 'core interest' and no compromise is possible on that (and Arunachal is a part of Tibet as per the Chinese claim). If it was meant to stake India's claim over Arunachal (and for China to stake its claim by not issuing a visa or not denying it either), then this game must be taken to other levels by India too, for example, do not issue visa to people residing in Kashgar because the suzerainty of the Princely State of J&K extended all the way up there until Pakistan seized Gilgit-Baltistan and did not press for claims up to Kashgar in its border settlement of 1962 with China. It may be difficult because of the close monitoring of the residents of Xinjiang by the Chinese but we can induce some foreign-resident Uyghurs from Kashgar to apply for Indian visa and then publicize the issue. Similarly, we must deny visas to any PLA officer who took any part in on-going operations in PoK.

Sridhar, in the case of an army officer it would be imprudent to send him with no stamp. But what if India were to do a test case. Say a trained intel operative with a real or false passport that puts his birth as Aru. Pr. If China puts no stamp on his passport, send him anyway and see what happens. Are they going to send him back and blame India for sending someone without a visa? Or will they allow him in without a visa? Allowing people into a country without a visa is normal for citizens of many countries in the world. It would be China's policy that is inconsistent. Would they stamp this man's passport at entry and exit? Would they arrest him?

It poses more complications for China no matter what they did. It is a highly silly symbolic thing they are doing - utterly devoid of anything other than juvenile spite, like a petulant child throwing a tantrum. Overreacting to it as if it has deep meaning is unnecessary. It only requires a ROTFL and a hack thoo.

Sir,One important aspect about CCP bad and unstable domestic situations make them rabid and agressive on the foreign policy may be attention diversion tactics on the home front

If one wants to give some real takleef to PRC, then

1) allot land to Taiwan and allow them to make a much much bigger and imposing "trade representative" (embassy) building in Delhi, than that what the Chinese have! (The building should retain Indian sovereignty on it until Taiwan declares Independence!)

2) Give state support to teaching Taiwanese in India.

3) Give prioritized access to Taiwanese businessmen and let Chinese wait.

4) Let Taiwan hold a "Festival of Friendship between Indian and Chinese Peoples" in various cities in India.

5) Give Taiwanese Politicians a platform in India to come and attend various conferences on World Peace etc. and to rebuke China for its imperialist policies.

6) Get Taiwanese to participate in the Indian cultural scene - media, TV, Bollywood.

Except for holding the political line about "One China" and keep according PRC formal recognition as de-jure China, etc. lets do everything to treat Taiwan as the real de-facto China.

Rajesh back in the 50s, Taiwan held a UN security council seat. That seat was offered to Nehru by the US, Nehru refused. Eventually Taiwan was displaced and China got the seat.

This is not to say that we cannot reverse our stand, but it will still not undo the consequences of Nehru's actions. Nehru I believe did not want to take something that was "offered " by the US to keep China out for fear of appearing aligned with USA

shiv saar,

I too have read such reports on UNSC seat being offered. Anyway past is past. We need to think about the future.

In China, much is about face, about H&D! That makes it far easier for India to prick PRC than anything they can do! Getting close to Taiwan gives us both - a stick to prick PRC as well as real benefits. If PRC objects, we can say it is all for business. The reason PRC would be really pissed off is because anything a country such as India does, would eventually be picked up by others in the international community. It means Taiwan getting more exposure, more respect. A scary prospect for CCP.

If we invite Taiwanese actors to have a role in Bollywood, we make our films even more popular in many Chinese-speaking countries - Taiwan, PRC, HK, Singapore. Imagine Chinese citizens getting lured away by "Asian" culture of Indians + Taiwan Chinese, allowing revolutionary ideas into their brains in a very subtle way, through the power of suggestion.

Individual visas and stamping are not dictated by the CPC. It will be some low level tinpot functionary who wants to look tough and maintain echandee and maybe rise in the ChiCom party competing against 80 million others. So it is entirely possible that some chute is doing this for his echandee. We need to see how must importance this issue is given by MEA and army. They will have inside info and also inside info of how we are needling the Chinese but pretending to be holier than thou. In fact India's holier than thou pretence itself needles enough people as it were - and in fact this post may need to go into the "Indians being attacked" thread.

Expect a Chinese attack by June/July
Colonel Anil Athale (retd)


It is time India woke up. Luckily, we do have some time.

At the moment the Himalayan passes are frozen and no military operations are possible.

The likely threat will only emerge in June/July 2012. It must be made clear that one is not talking of an all-out war.

What we must accept is a short, sharp, attack by the Chinese, more in the nature of a slap!

To those who claim that Indo-Chinese trade is too big -- one needs to remind them that as a proportion of overall Chinese trade with the world, it is of very little consequence!

It is time the ministry of defence cleaned up its act got cracking in building up the Indian Army's military capability to face the Chinese threat
http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 120109.htm

Let the officer, for whom PRC said he doesn't need visa, go to PRC and also visit Tibet. His point of view should be that he doesn't need visa to visit Tibet and he will travel to Tibet using Indian passport.

If that works, India should issue passports to many Tibetan refugees with place of birth marked as Arunachal Pradesh and let them visit Tibet regularly.

Greater diplomatic recognition for Taiwan and Taiwan nationals are a very worthwhile exercise for India, not particularly because of PRC, but as a bilateral reciprocity measure because Taiwan itself has unilaterally made it easier for Indian nationals to visit, as a policy change recently:
BoCA Taiwan: Visa Exempt Entry

India was added to the list that consisted of those other ASEAN countries, sometime in the last year or so. According to their new rules, NRIs working in those nations listed above can enter Taiwan visa-free. Similar rules apply in South Korea too, I believe. Hong Kong and Macau don't require a visa at all for any Indian national (nor necessarily NRI) - you just need a passport.

The joke here is that the Chinese themselves need permits to go to Tibet.

It was much worse than simple refusal. Nehru said that India would not consider an UNSC seat unless China was first inducted into that position. Nehru argued this position forcefully even in the Commonwealth meetings where Australia & South Africa were more anti-communist than even the US at that time. In 1958 India tabled an item to discuss the inclusion of Mainland China and expulsion of Formosa and argued its case bitterly. In July 1959, India once again proposed that the General Assembly of the United Nations should take up the question of admitting Peking China in the place of the Kuomintang representatives, in spite of what had happened recently in Tibet. Soon thereafter, when asked about referring Tibet to the UN, Nehru pointed out that the U.N., “great body as it is, has rather prevented itself from considering such matters in the sense that, when it does not recognise a certain great country, then to pass judgment on it becomes difficult.” While the British wanted both Taipei and Peking to be in the UN, the US did not want Peking at all, it was India that argued forcefully for the expulsion of Taipei from the UNSC and replacing it with Peking. Nehru was the first Asian leader to recognize the rebel Mao-Tse-Tungs seizure of power.

One has to recall the prescient statements made by Sardar Patel in his now famous letter to Nehru on November 7, 1950. I had posted this here some years ago, but will quote extracts once again

Nehru gave China UNSC seat but China backstabbed him by invading India in 1962

What a treachery!

As far as Taiwan is concerned, China will gobble it up in next 20 years unless USA/Japan/India do something about it. China is already strengthening its ties with Taiwan. There is a greater cooperation between the two countries than ever before.

1.Cross-strait investments have greatly increased in recent years. Predominantly, this involves Taiwan-based firms moving to, or collaborating in joint ventures, in mainland China. The collective body of Taiwanese investors in mainland China is now a significant economic force for both the mainland China and Taiwan.

2.Regular flights between mainland China and Taiwan

3.Cultural exchanges have increased in frequency. The National Palace Museum in Taipei and the Palace Museum in Beijing have collaborated on exhibitions. Scholars and academics frequently visit institutions on the other side. Books published on each side are regularly re-published in the other side, though restrictions on direct imports and the different orthography between the two sides somewhat impede the exchange of books and ideas.

Students of Taiwan origin receive special concessions in the National Higher Education Entrance Examination in mainland China. There are regular programs for school students from each side to visit the other.

Religious exchange has become frequent. Frequent interactions occur between worshippers of Matsu, and also between Buddhists.

However, China continues to move ballistic missiles and modern warplanes to bases within range of Taiwan. Currently China has nearly 2,000 ballistic missiles aimed at Taiwan. That is 50 percent more than there were just two years prior, and ten times more than in 2000. Most of these are Dong Feng (DF)-11 and Dong Feng (DF)-15 models. The DF11 (also known as the M11) has a range of 300 kilometers and carries a one ton warhead. The DF15 (M9) has a range of 600 kilometers and carries a half ton warhead. There are also over 1,000 Chinese warplanes and over 100,000 troops (including several brigades of paratroopers) available for an attack on the island. The missiles would use high explosive or cluster bomb warheads. In response, Taiwan is investing in an anti-missile system intended to negate a large number of Chinese missiles.

As far as India- Taiwan relationship is concerned, we should do what China is doing with Pakistan. If Taiwan belongs to China than Pakistan belongs to us! On this basis, we must create a very strong relationship with Taiwan. Who knows, Taiwan may offer us a military/naval base in time to come!

The only issue is if pakis need Chinese help, it is available just across the border but if Taiwan needs our help, it is very long haul. I am not saying it is not possible but the equation paki = Taiwan is not that simple.

Thats because it's neither simple, neither makes sense and is plain stupid. We do that we will have a our chaddi's in a twist and look foolish. China and Taiwan both believe they are 1 nation.

India's failure with China is Tibet.

If India wants to solve the China-India problem..it has to

1. Derecognize Chinese aggression of Tibet.
2. Claim Kailash-Mansarover and make it disputed.

As long as we don't do both the above we will lose ground to China.

Next

3. Say we want to give Arunachali's a chance to vote..India-China. If China gives Tibet the choice Independence-China.

Result: Not 1 AP citizen will vote China. Not 1 Tibetan will vote China. We have them by the balls. Because we are not doing anything Chanakyan, but playing the Satyameva Jayate game.
Few realize Truth is the most powerful game.

I was trying gently to make him realize the truth of his first 3 points but you seem determined on using the sledge hammer to drive home your point.

Taiwan is not that far from Vietnam and still closer to Philippines, Japan and South Korea. If one were to proliferate nukes to Vietnam and on to Taiwan it basically sets up the same stand-off between China and Taiwan as is between India and Pakistan.

There is a strong sense of a Taiwanese identity, separate from mainland Chinese identity. Such security cooperation could strengthen it still more.

The issue of Tibet is a separate one, but if one wants to stick it up the Chinese as a response to their visa shenanigans, positioning ourselves on Tibet is not the right response. Han Chinese are much more sensitive on the Taiwan issue and showing them the middle finger there would be the right response to that.

As said Tibet is a separate issue and I agree we need to derecognize Tibet as part of China. There is nothing stupid about bringing in Taiwan into the equation. It makes perfect sense.

^^Please consider what RajeshA wrote: ‘Getting close to Taiwan gives us both - a stick to prick PRC as well as real benefits. If PRC objects, we can say it is all for business.’

Harbans, you may consider it to be simple/stupid etc – that’s your opinion. But many Indians believe that India should develop strong relationship with Vietnam, Taiwan, Indonesia, Singapore, Myanmar etc.

India cannot afford to be a sitting duck! She needs to be proactive to realise her strategic goals!

Please remember that one has to start sowing the seeds now to reap the benefits many years later.

No doubt. No one here is talking about not having friendly relations with Taiwan. Open up an Embassy/ consulate whatever. India's core interest and issue with China is it's 7500 km long border with Tibet. Chinese aggression into India, it's influence on Nepal. These have to be tackled head on and not via East Asia in a twisted and slanted way. Only freeing Tibet will reduce Chinese influence in Pakistan.



So please do identify your strategic goal..it's Tibet as buffer between the Han and us. Taiwan also believes in China's aggression over Tibet. .although they would be more amenable to provide them with a plebiscite. But that is not Taiwans official position.

We have immense goodwill in Taiwan. Either way we would be winner. So RajeshA's idea is worth implementing. Incidently Taiwan is part of APO in which India is founding counry while China is not. Even SOKO is member country while NOKO is not. We can start by giving more importance to NPC and APO activities and cooperation.

Apologies, but that is what the response should be. We don't have the balls, that's a different matter. There are no responses available if you've bartered away your core interest. China's weak underbelly is it's claim on Tibet. It's overt aggression on our Northern borders is a result of that weakness. INdia won';t be taken seriously anywhere if we neglect that aspect. That's been our bane.

No way it means we should not get close to Taiwan..issue funny visa's and start having a full time embassy. All that is fair too. No quibbles about your post, except..Tibet should be made prominent an issue. K-M be made disputable territory. We move forward from there..

All of that is good and we should have more contact, trade, etc will these countries. But do you really believe Taiwan will become our lance, so to say, against China that Pakistan is willing or should I say eager to become? For an answer on Taiwan just look at the FDI figures for China. It is the single biggest Invesor in China. That in itself is a huge investment in the China-Taiwan relationship.