LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

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Singha
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

helis do not need runways to operate from. the army bases could provide open fields that heli infra can be built around. infact its better these helis be spread all over and not concentrated into a few bases given that helis have low transit speed and low range vs fighter a/c.

I look forward to Frogfoot MKIs with the IA using sdb and hellfires - have a long list of bad guys to beat up :twisted:
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by shiv »

Singha wrote:helis do not need runways to operate from. the army bases could provide open fields that heli infra can be built around.
Its not so much about runways as the other infrastructure - hangars, engine maintainance. Technicians, workshops and suppliers of parts - many of which have to be duplicated by the army while they already exist with the air force. the other thing is that if a half hearted job is done (open fields) - it leaves no room for expansion should the army later need a runway to operate UAVs or some such thing. So there will be some expensive duplication unless some sharing agreement is worked out.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

this might get resolved only if we have 'theater commands' that fold in both IAF and IA in that zone. I agree that for stuff like LCH which both IA and IAF will operate, a common infra is best. if IA operates Rudra exclusively it may not matter for rudra atleast.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by rajanb »

Methinks that the IA needs its own Heli SQs. With direct line reporting to CORPS HQ and dotted line to the IAF.

Similarly heavy duty A2G with direct line to IAF and dotted line to IA Corps requesting for blasting enemy supplies, logistics etc. behind enemy lines

Maintenance under the IAF.

Recce by satellite and IAF A/C to be shared with all three including IN

IAF for Air Superiority, DSPA of enemy's strategic assets, enemy airspace.

AAD by all depending on the theatre. IA for its assets and attacking frontlines, IN for the coasts, theatre and assets at sea, and the IAF for strategic, populated targets and CAP over airspace ruled by it, and all Military and R&D, economic and civilain assets located on our ground.

The turf rules have to be thought out logistically, and logically to give us the best edge for a win and bang for the buck. To hell with egos.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by bmallick »

shiv wrote: There seems to be a lot of work going on to make all 3 forces "integrated". It may be the integration issues that the Air Force worries about. For example the Air Force is tasked with Air Defence and interception of intruding aircraft. Now unless they have a very clear understanding of where the Army is using its helos - the army helos can be killed by friendly fire. Of course it would be instructive to see how the US integrates is various air forces.
How do the army & airforce now coordinate with regards to IAF aircrafts returning from strike are not hit by IA SAM/AA system?

I think it makes sense for IA to have its own attack helo's. The IAF can infact stick to fixed wing aircrafts. Its the grunts on the ground who needs Transport Helo's for last mile connectivity, also attack helo's for quick close support. Majority of Helo assets should be owned & operated by IA. They can share infrastructure with IAF bases for the same. Fixed wing aircrafts stay with the IAF, that way they always can operate on the "strategic level". That should keep IAF happy.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Rahul M »

rajan ji, IA already has its own heli sqns for about a quarter century.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by rajanb »

Rahul M wrote:rajan ji, IA already has its own heli sqns for about a quarter century.
Rahulji, but not in the numbers or strength or firepower that the IA needs?
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

shiv wrote:
Singha wrote:helis do not need runways to operate from. the army bases could provide open fields that heli infra can be built around.
Its not so much about runways as the other infrastructure - hangars, engine maintainance. Technicians, workshops and suppliers of parts - many of which have to be duplicated by the army while they already exist with the air force. the other thing is that if a half hearted job is done (open fields) - it leaves no room for expansion should the army later need a runway to operate UAVs or some such thing. So there will be some expensive duplication unless some sharing agreement is worked out.
Shiv, the Army Aviation Corps (AAC) Squadrons (called Recce & Obs Squadrons) already have bases which are independent of IAF bases. Same goes for UAV assets as well. You see, most of the time the AAC bases are situated as per the IA requirement and not as per the available infra from IAF. Plus it is far simpler to build a heliport than set-up infra at IAF bases -which may as it is have space constraint. Also, IAF bases are positioned to support IAF's POV about fighting the air-war. IA might want to base and deploy the assets more closer to formations they are likely to operate with.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Rahul M »

no, that's why the argument for expansion. both the rudra and the LCH is being majorly pushed by IA.

personally I find the US military's division of helo assets more sensible. what we can have is joint training when possible for cost savings.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by ShauryaT »

Just a thought on a simple way to distribute aviation assets. Anything primarily flying 10,000 ft below, belongs to the army, the rest to the Air force.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Shrinivasan »

ShauryaT wrote:Just a thought on a simple way to distribute aviation assets. Anything primarily flying 10,000 ft below, belongs to the army, the rest to the Air force.
this will muddle the water more... A better demarcation would be, all rotary assets be with IA and fixed Wing with the IAF. All three services would operate UAVs and UCAVs.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Rahul M »

IAF needs helos too for many functions, utility, SAR etc etc.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by venkat_r »

IA should have an independent force structure to support these choppers - If IAF and IA are going to use the same birds they can have some common training or depos at the most, but they should have completely seperate command structure, pilots, maintenance personel, deployments, spares and extensive training in working with the IA deployments and insertions - Cold start mandates such changes.

If they try to share them with the IAF, it is no going to be much different than what it is now. Redundency and additional costs are negligible compared to the advantages it provides. IA can bring in the choppers to clear resistance points or circumvent and insert troups or to just stop a moving column of enemy vehecles. Knowing that IA can bring these choppers at a moments notice into the tactical scenario would give multiple headaches to the enemy planners and also give a lot of flexibility to Indian planners. Just Imagine a 100 to 150 attack force on the western sector itself for IA armed to the teeth with 4 KM range missiles to handle enemy vehecles and to provide fire power where needed --


IAF will have its hands full in a war to provide dominance over the theater, maintain air superiority, avoid any balooning on the Indian side that PA is so fond of and ofcourse the strike missions over Pakistan to take out any key assets on land and sea.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Jaeger »

Rahul M wrote:IAF needs helos too for many functions, utility, SAR etc etc.

This is true, but these can be dedicated SAR/Utility Sqns., with CSAR-prepared Garud teams... Mi-17s with night flying capability and ESM/ECM measures backed up by HELINA-armed Rudras, assigned to complement air operations sector-wise.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Philip »

Venkat,you're quite right.When the three services cn't agree upon a Combined "Chief of Staff" structure and want their own indepenent authority,in our expanded theatre war scearios envisahed for the future,the IA must have its own Army Air Corps with enough transports (C-130s for special ops),light aircraft and helos,attack and utility,as it requires.For all major logistic operations,the IAF should possess the bulk of the tansport fleet,rom ligh to heavy aircraft.All attack helos shoudl be under the IA's control along with the large number of utility helos,and armed ALHs that if needs.The integration of ground forces along with attack helos and UAVs/UCAVs into a smooth functioning machine ,is the goal today in keeping wiht the IA's new doctrines to deal with Pak and China.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by VishalJ »

Gaur wrote:Vishal Jolapara,
Wonderful pic. Thanks for sharing. :)
^ :wink:
Here's another one i just came across
Image
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by srai »

shiv wrote:
Singha wrote:helis do not need runways to operate from. the army bases could provide open fields that heli infra can be built around.
Its not so much about runways as the other infrastructure - hangars, engine maintainance. Technicians, workshops and suppliers of parts - many of which have to be duplicated by the army while they already exist with the air force. the other thing is that if a half hearted job is done (open fields) - it leaves no room for expansion should the army later need a runway to operate UAVs or some such thing. So there will be some expensive duplication unless some sharing agreement is worked out.
Rahul M wrote:...

personally I find the US military's division of helo assets more sensible. what we can have is joint training when possible for cost savings.
Yes, the IA can have helo assets. However, there is a lot of room for discussion as to how the IAF and IA will share the resources and infrastructure. Here are some questions:
  1. Do both the IA and IAF need separate helicopter training facilities for pilots and technicians? Or can this be shared? Who runs this academy?
  2. Which types of infrastructures shared for what types helicopters and in what situations? Is there enough space in the bases during peacetime and wartime deployments? Who provides the infrastructure and logistics?
  3. Do both the IA and IAF need to recruit their pilots and technicians separately? Or can this be shared? Who is in charge of recruiting?
  4. Do both the IA and IAF need to buy helicopters separately? Or is there a centralized working committee between the IA and the IAF on purchasing decisions based on what each requires?
  5. What level of current "Jointness" exist between the IA and the IAF? What is the level of C4ISR integration between the two services? It is obvious this is not that great.
  6. Who pays for what? Does this mean the IA is angling for increased budget and looking to lessen the IAF budget? Who gets a raise and who gets a cut? How much wastage will there be?
Like someone pointed out earlier, if the Indian Armed Forces can't even decide on the Chief of Defense Staff position then it may be expecting too much for the services to share helicopter resources.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by keshavchandra »

Today near mana airport in Raipur a BSF Dhruv crashed, Three personal were injured(Two pilot one technician). It was on a test flight while crash from 100 feet.why the in service chopper is still in test flight phase? What kind of test user BSF is seeking on end product..
http://idrw.org/?p=6400
member_19648
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by member_19648 »

Every helicopter has to go through pre-delivery trials where the standard SOP is followed and the chopper has to go through a series of tests. The flight-test might have been that.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by keshavchandra »

Ivanev wrote:Every helicopter has to go through pre-delivery trials where the standard SOP is followed and the chopper has to go through a series of tests. The flight-test might have been that.
Get the point, Ivanev. Thanks.......
As this product was in test phase before final delivery and hand over to client, So which Dept will suffer the final product cost, HAL or BSF ?
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Kailash »

Singha
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

I wonder why helis given to paramils/ civies tend to crash more often than does those in armed forces. are they used more , or the base infra is lacking to inspect and keep them in tip top shape?
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Rahul M »

bsf has f'ed up every single flying machine given to them, with the possible exception of the embraers, which are I think maintained by others.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

the Embraers being based in delhi are probably looked after by the palam vvip sqdn assets.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Kartik »

Is there any news on TD-3? This article in AW&ST states that a third prototype was supposed to join the test flight program by June 2011..no news of it as yet.

Image

Has Hari Nair stopped coming to BRF now?
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Indranil »

And what about the changes in the stubbed wings of the second prototype?
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Vikram W »

I believe I saw an LCH flying over Delhi today. Looks like it will be on the Republic Day parade.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by adityadange »

Image

just noticed 3 lemons placed at the wheels of the chopper. mere munna ko buri najar nahi lagni chahiye :)
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Philip »

Helo crashes.There was a vital piece of info in AWST about the use of Apaches aboard UK carriers in recent wars,which has implications for the IN's ASW contest.An Apache sinks in 3 minutes! This gives the crew/occupants scarcely enough time to evacuate the helo if it ditches Now this attack helo is not strictly expected to serve aboard naval amphibs,but in the context of conflict today ,it throws light on a very vital requirement for any naval helo,which in a crisis has to ditch like the Dhruv which landed from 100ft. in the above report.The Sea KIng's underbelly has a boat shape along with its outrigger floats,allowing it to land on the sea ,so can the NH-90s whose composite fuselage also has a very effective flotation gear.However, its US competitior,has a conventional helo body,and though some flotation eqpt. was added,its design does not have its fuselage and body shaped for the task,which might be at a disadvantage in the "survival" time rate in comparison to the NH-90 if it ditches,as ditching is a permanent danger when operating helos at sea.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by keshavchandra »

with the apache deal we need to add another adhoc deal of Soflam leaser based target detector. It will surely boost our coordination in between ground and air vehicles.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by member_22605 »

indranilroy wrote:And what about the changes in the stubbed wings of the second prototype?
TD-2 has undergone a lot of changes, infact it is way different from the TD-1(even TD-1 has changed from its AI-11 avatar though) both visually and internally (i personally feel its become fugly). From the modified armament boom to the landing gear fairings, the changed door scheme to the changes internally its evolved into a completely new machine. But all for good and with every passing day, its only getting better.
Cheers!
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Indranil »

Raghu ji,

I have not seen a pic of TD2 with the modified armament boom. I remember discussing this Hari Nair sir. It was running late and was supposed to be fitted in by mid of 2011. Was supposed to be an aerofoil for lower drag instead of the stealthy version that you have seen on TD1/TD2 till now. Me and Hari Nair sir were discussing whether the wings would also be generating lift. There was a talk in AI11 (by Mr. Sampath?) where he said that the wing will not be generating any lift. But Hari Nair sir clarified that it will actually be generating some.

Would love it if Hari Nair sir could provide some more light on the status of the TD-2 modifications and TD-3.

P.S. Have you seen any change in the landing gear fairings? I haven't and am itching to know how the changed fairings look like.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by member_22605 »

indranilroy wrote:Raghu ji,

I have not seen a pic of TD2 with the modified armament boom. I remember discussing this Hari Nair sir. It was running late and was supposed to be fitted in by mid of 2011. Was supposed to be an aerofoil for lower drag instead of the stealthy version that you have seen on TD1/TD2 till now. Me and Hari Nair sir were discussing whether the wings would also be generating lift. There was a talk in AI11 (by Mr. Sampath?) where he said that the wing will not be generating any lift. But Hari Nair sir clarified that it will actually be generating some.

Would love it if Hari Nair sir could provide some more light on the status of the TD-2 modifications and TD-3.

P.S. Have you seen any change in the landing gear fairings? I haven't and am itching to know how the changed fairings look like.
Indranilji, yes i have seen TD-1 & 2 infact i see them everyday because i have no other option as i work on them daily :P (i am a design engineer in RWR&DC HAL) and if you can loiter around HAL maybe even you can find them flying but not daily. there is no change in the LG as such, just that its been covered with a fairing to reduce drag
Cheers!
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by suryag »

Thanks Thanks Raghuk ji, please stroll around the LCA hangar too, too many jingoes waiting for LSP7/NP1 to fly
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by pralay »

raghu ji,

1. how much weight reduction is achieved so far ?
2. is the Recon pod integrated now ?
3. is there any research going on for things similar to Blue Edge Rotor Blades for noise reduction ??(this is not much related to lch but helo tech)
4. is there any research going on for folding blades ? it will be very useful on ships.

welcome to BRF :)
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

I think we can focus on functionality in tranche1 and leave the killer styling cues for tranche2. weight reduction is key as the bird will need all sorts of self defence avionics added on the outside for service role.

they need to have a plan for a Ardigen2 engine from day1 - payload and avionic creep is almost 100% inevitable and IAF/IA will likely go for less glass canopy once they fly it..adding more metal.

on *paper* the wiki empty and mtow TARGETS for the LCH are same as Tigre, but the ardigen engine is far more powerful at peak rating... giving the LCH atleast 500 shp extra margin at top end....

now 'all' we need to do is meet the paper weight targets...much easier for eurocopter than HAL.
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by member_22605 »

sameer_shelavale wrote:raghu ji,

1. how much weight reduction is achieved so far ?
2. is the Recon pod integrated now ?
3. is there any research going on for things similar to Blue Edge Rotor Blades for noise reduction ??(this is not much related to lch but helo tech)
4. is there any research going on for folding blades ? it will be very useful on ships.

welcome to BRF :)
1. Tricky question, i may not be able to answer that
2. What recon pod? if you are talking about the EO, then yes it has been integrated and that was done a long while ago on the ALH, it would just be a matter of copy paste onto LCH
3. yes some research on rotors for sure, but again same answer as the first one
4. The folding blade has been available on the ALH(wheeled variant for navy) for quite some time now but the LUH will arrive with blade-folding feature from the very beginning
And finally thanks and please don't call me ji, i am very young :P
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Philip »

V.intersting to compare the LCH wihth the Turkish attack helo,many similarites,that one developed along with AW.However,I can't fathom the extra large "glasshouse" ,esp. for the rear cockpit,when compared with other similar helos,which offer better protection for the crew.These helos usually hace a chamfer /kink at the rear edge of the cockpit side window glass,I do not think that visbility is drmatically improved with the extra glasshouse,unless it was done to reduce weight-but at the cost of better pilot protection?
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by vic »

Re RaghuK

Can you tell us anything about the progress on proposed Medium Lift Helo?
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Re: LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

Post by Bala Vignesh »

raghuji,
Welcome to the forum.. Thanks for the updates and as suryaji has requested, please take a stroll to the LCA hangar too..
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