Indian Army: News & Discussion

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 23 Jan 2012 19:27

sum wrote:Kalam pays tributes at IPKF memorial

This man's stature keeps growing in my eyes as each day passes!!

Yes

But I think this man's stature is already awesome, compared to the lesser mortals like you and me and perhaps the rest of BR

K

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 23 Jan 2012 19:38

>>>Any lawyer types here who could throw light on the applicability of this on VKS case?

I have seen this guy Dushyant Dave on TV channels and he spits venom only. His arguments are round about and sometimes incorrect. He keeps harping on VKS 'accepting' his year of birth as 1950, and also any correction in DOB required should have been done within 2 yrs of joining service.

I find his arguments politically motivated (pro establishments) and anti-military. Sometimes, even a person like me (with no law background) can put in counter-arguments against his totally unconvincing position on this issue.

I don't know much about his background, but he appears to be a Govt agent, atleast in this case.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 23 Jan 2012 19:55

rajrang wrote:Sorry if this has been posted previously: Supreme Court's view point of 1983 on the Indian armed forces. Is this a pointer to the possible conclusion of the SC?

http://indianmilitarynews.wordpress.com/tag/vk-singh/

There is also a discussion of Gen VK Singh's case, which I realize many on BR would not agree with.

This article misrepresents the fact, misleads and misapply a considered judgement of SC of which I am fully aware and of course another hit job by IT. Better ignored. Just a waste of time.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 23 Jan 2012 20:27

a) On the issue raised by Raj C about a crime being committed when the form was filled by VKS's teacher. Would the laws of limitation apply on this aspect? IMHO this is just a red herring to show VKS in bad light.

b) Once the UPSC has corrected the date post the exam, these arguments are totally unnecessary.

c) The Kangressi are screwing all institutions .. everything is to be subverted .. the CAG, the Army Chief..whos next in line?

d) Was talking to a supreme court lawyer today and he feels govt is on very sticky wicket. the evidence, circumstance are loaded against the govt. this is getting interesting. VKS is getting top notch legal advice.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 23 Jan 2012 20:36

manjgu wrote:a) .... when the form was filled by VKS's teacher.

chackojoseph wrote:DNA has article on COAS's school official who filled the form. He says that VKS was confused abt his birth year, hence they filled 1950. Subsequently, his fathers causalities record was taken from the battalion. It stated 1951 and his school leaving certificate was made stating the year 1951.

Has this been discussed before?

I am just putting that into perspective. The form was filled first when VKS was confused. Then the causalities record was checked and the school leaving certificate was made.

It appears that this 1950 year issue was there even before VKS filled the form.

My impression, when I read the DNA article, the teacher may have filled the form should be taken as merely written (as in if you help your friend or smaller relative to fill the form while making him sit in front of you and writing down stuff after asking him/her). The teacher was interested to push the students to join (air) force after 1962 / 65 wars.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 23 Jan 2012 20:45

Doesnt the matter being sub judice not stop these people? Or is it only an argument of convenience

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Jan 2012 22:43

Some times its so hard to believe that a Army Chief who has the courage to take on the government on his Age issue in name of honour and dignity , would simply fall to pressure from superiors and would accept 1950 DOB during two of his promotions and then twist that into "organisational interest" tale , I wonder what ever happened to honour and dignity of individual when subjected to such pressure.

Ofcourse media will play its own role and there will be multiple opinions and similar amount of "facts" presented by those in 4th estate in a way they see it right and ofcourse its right of the media to analyse the issue , many would agree or disagree with them but then thats what free media is all about.

Both parties will get a fare chance to present their case in SC and since we are not running a kangroo court , we are better off to wait an see what judgement SC rules in this case , it would certainly be a watershed moment no matter which way the judgement from SC goes on this matter.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 23 Jan 2012 23:12

Oh Surya, did you see the article on BR main page by your "new" best friend Col Shukla

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=17149

Another (Hack thoo) hit job on Gen V K Singh masquerading under different name.

All the loyalties are coming out now, and it seems that we have too many America Rakshaks and Congress Rakshaks amongst our intelligentsia than otherwise.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 23 Jan 2012 23:13

Austin wrote:Some times its so hard to believe that a Army Chief who has the courage to take on the government on his Age issue in name of honour and dignity , would simply fall to pressure from superiors and would accept 1950 DOB during two of his promotions and then twist that into "organisational interest" tale , I wonder what ever happened to honour and dignity of individual when subjected to such pressure..

What it means Austin that the chief also has brains in addition to the qualities above and also having a spine.

No wonder the Congress detests him.

negi · Post by **negi** » 23 Jan 2012 23:25

Austin I haven't followed this in detail but to your point I would ask why can't the COAS take a stand on an issue on which he earlier did not ? Is there a rule somewhere which says that once you accept a wrong you have to continue doing the same in future too ?

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 23 Jan 2012 23:31

Sanku wrote:
Austin wrote:Some times its so hard to believe that a Army Chief who has the courage to take on the government on his Age issue in name of honour and dignity , would simply fall to pressure from superiors and would accept 1950 DOB during two of his promotions and then twist that into "organisational interest" tale , I wonder what ever happened to honour and dignity of individual when subjected to such pressure..
What it means Austin that the chief also has brains in addition to the qualities above and also having a spine.

No wonder the Congress detests him.

I think Austin's question was "what ever happened to honour and dignity of individual when subjected to such pressure?" You can regard that as a sign of having brains (or is it clever?), but that does not answer Austin's question.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Jan 2012 23:32

Sanku wrote:What it means Austin that the chief also has brains in addition to the qualities above and also having a spine

Sure every chief has those qualities that is why they are up out there....

No wonder the Congress detests him.

Dont think its Congress versus IA chief issue here , becuause i recollect when the AVB issue was hot people were rooting of GF as the chief culprit ..... but then its just the case that at that time NDA was in power and this time around UPA ...... ofcourse some will argue that UPA coming to power was also planned by NDA 8 years in advance

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Jan 2012 23:38

negi wrote:Austin I haven't followed this in detail but to your point I would ask why can't the COAS take a stand on an issue on which he earlier did not ? Is there a rule somewhere which says that once you accept a wrong you have to continue doing the same in future too ?

Ofcourse he can and surely he must if he strongly feels about it ( he should have done that then too as he has done now , why should a core commander bow to Army Chief when he knows he is right and just come what may )

Having said that it will always be the case of jitne muh utne batten and every one will have their own POV and every one has the tendency to think they are right and the other side is stupid or liffafa .........so I would trust what SC has to say and will take it as just and right decision

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 23 Jan 2012 23:58

Someone was wanting a take from different perspective. But messenger is still IT.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/rss- ... witterfeed

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 24 Jan 2012 00:11

Austin wrote:
Dont think its Congress versus IA chief issue here , becuause i recollect when the AVB issue was hot people were rooting of GF as the chief culprit ..... but then its just the case that at that time NDA was in power and this time around UPA ...... ofcourse some will argue that UPA coming to power was also planned by NDA 8 years in advance

Are they not different situations? So why stretch an argument.

This issue seems very straightforward - the birth record at the hospital, school leaving certificate, NDA and IMA are consistent. So one should be able to easily reconcile. That it is not being done and the matter has gone to SC. This implies there is strong desire somewhere in govt/congress/bureaucracy/or succession line to move him out in 2012 (rather than him leaving in 2013).

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Jan 2012 00:14

Austin wrote:
Sanku wrote:What it means Austin that the chief also has brains in addition to the qualities above and also having a spine
Sure every chief has those qualities that is why they are up out there....

Well we do no for sure that during 62 there were chiefs who did not quite fit the description.

No wonder the Congress detests him.
Dont think its Congress versus IA chief issue here , becuause i recollect when the AVB issue was hot people were rooting of GF as the chief culprit ..... but then its just the case that at that time NDA was in power and this time around UPA ...... ofcourse some will argue that UPA coming to power was also planned by NDA 8 years in advance

Hardly a comparison, for obvious reasons. If Congress could sack him and did for a specific reason, even that would be better.

What do we have?
Clear violation of the law. (Sure the SC has not spoken but the opinion of 4 ex-CJIs is not exactly vapor ware either)
Skulduggery,
poison pen article by paid hacks (like against Kakodkar during the nuclear sell out deal),
mucking about

and what not.

I challenge the Govt to show a modicum of guts and take a action if they dare.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Jan 2012 00:18

rajrang wrote: I think Austin's question was "what ever happened to honour and dignity of individual when subjected to such pressure?" You can regard that as a sign of having brains (or is it clever?), but that does not answer Austin's question.

It does, I think Austin got it as well.

A battle for honor and dignity is not over when you are still pursuing the case up the channels, which Gen VK Singh was then doing under different channels available to him.

Only after justice was finally denied to him and the horrible cavalier manner of doing so that he had to escalate the situation.

Some one who fights the battles as per the lay of the land is intelligent, honor and dignity does not mean like acting like a simpleton.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 24 Jan 2012 00:43

nelson wrote:Someone was wanting a take from different perspective. But messenger is still IT.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/rss- ... witterfeed

There is no take here , even by IT standard. Its CON trick. Wait for Diggy to pitch in. Next they will say VKS is RSS man and that he is communal..blah blah.

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 24 Jan 2012 01:09

deleted.

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 24 Jan 2012 01:10

Austin wrote:so I would trust what SC has to say and will take it as just and right decision

SC is constrained to tackle the legal question only. The legal aspect is now only a minor part after the issue snowballed into a national media fueled drama. I don't think anyone is seriously under doubt as to what the correct DoB is or is waiting with a bated breath as to what the court will say the DoB is. I guess that some judgment will be passed based on some narrow legalistic point of view.

People have been casting aspersions on the morals and honesty of everyone from the COAS, his predecessors, the various selection boards, the civil bureaucracy as well as the political leadership. Will this be resolved, names cleared or condemned by the court? Bloody unlikely. Gossip, finger pointing, counter accusations will continue to fly.

What will also be left unanswered in the short term was if the court was an appropriate venue to pursue this case.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 24 Jan 2012 01:19

The article by Sandeep Unnithan in India oday titled "Self Before Service" was not the first job that he delivered. There was one previous article on the same issue titled
"Lies Of The General"
New Delhi, September 9, 2011

Army chief misrepresented facts on his date of birth: Defence ministry

He also reports the query posed by Law Ministry to AG

In May, the law ministry asked the attorney general "whether the amendment of the chief's date of birth was legally tenable after so many years". The query was forwarded to Vahanvati who turned down the army chief's plea.

Now it is a fact that all his promotions have taken place with 1951 DOB till 2006 when his case was taken up for promotion to Lt Gen. That UPSC was satisfied and that he indeed produced his Matriculation Certificate in 1971. That AG branch is the official record keeper and it has maintained 1951 as DOB all along. There was never a question of correction;amendment but that of reconciliation of two records in different branches of Army. We also know that even MS letter on one occasion accepted 1951 as final but then MOD did not accept it. MOD also ordered inquiry that never happened.

So if query is put in that way indicating that VKS wanted amendment then naturally Law is very clear and even if correct DOB is established it would not be changed prior to retirement. But then all service entries must show the original one needing amendment. Request need to be made within stipulated time and thereafter it is not entertained, generally. SC has also held that for all intent and purposes Matriculation would be treated a final proof of DOB. That is because later on people start producing Janmapatri or Municipal Birth certificates etc. The new DOB also should not make the officer ineligible to apply for the post due to underage or should not make him ineligible to receive essential qualification. In such cases change is denied.

I think VKS case does not attract any of the above mentioned provisions.

The Punchline in the article is

General Singh took office on the promise of cleansing "the internal health of the Indian army and battling corruption. His legacy will be that of a chief who went to battle to have his date of birth changed

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 24 Jan 2012 01:39

Badar wrote:

What will also be left unanswered in the short term was if the court was an appropriate venue to pursue this case.

When there is no other appropriate remedy is available within the administrative setup sort of making the so called Deal with the Govt, Courts are the only available option and sometimes they also may not be able to deliver the Justice.

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 24 Jan 2012 02:31

chaanakya wrote:When there is no other appropriate remedy is available within the administrative setup sort of making the so called Deal with the Govt, Courts are the only available option and sometimes they also may not be able to deliver the Justice.

What will probably be left unanswered as well in the short term is if it was worthwhile to pursue a remedy at all, with all the accompanying fallout. Not for Vicks, but for the rest of us.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 24 Jan 2012 04:14

^^Badar: Was it worthwhile to not fix (as in correct) it right at beginning (by MoD/MS etc) for the greater good rather than force remedial action through the SC?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Jan 2012 05:27

What is commonplace in our country is the "fixing"-and I'm not suggesting here that VKS or his father has "fixed" his DOB,but fixing by parents to ensure school admission,etc.I had classmates decades ago whose parents deliberately fixed it with the VAO to make the child older so that he could get into school.Legion are the cases where schools have also "fixed" the ages of their students downwards so that they could play in inter-school matches and have been caught out.

Therefore in this imbroglio,the magnifying glass,nay microscope must go into the very earliest records,authenticate them,and then go by the earliest army records which have recorded this DOB.Incorrect facts must be set right at some time internally,esp. when his awards note his correct DOB on them as he has stated, and he has on record made many attempts at doing so.For argument's sake,let's assume that it was not Gen.Singh's DOB in question but the statistical error was his sex! Let's assume that the babus got his sex wrong and insisted that he was in fact a female,while he all the while protested and even when he "proved" himself a male,refused to accept the "evidence" as records were sacrosant,snidely hinting that he had had a "sex-change op" and that he had earlier agreed with his superiors that he was a chick only to become chief !!!

Whatever the truth of the good general's age,the manner in which he and the issue of his age has been treated within the IA and the MOD has shown utter incompetence,and knowing that the sh*t was about to hit the fan,the GOI/politicos and St.Anthony,have displayed a myopic babu-like mentality,ignored the ultra sensitivity of the issue,and had little respect for the rank of COAS,and personally made the general feel that he was being treated like a liar-as he has stated,and booted out as punishment for that.I have a gut feeling that the GOI/UPA/MMS are deliberately and asininely taking a harsh view against the general , because of events across the border,where the Paki armed forces are currently resisting attempts to cut them down to size and have got the politicos by the ghoolies! Our armed forces must be regularly reminded that they are under civilian control and every now and again must be kicked in the teeth (Adm.Bhagwat) or backside (Gen.Singh) like a vile servant who beats the dog.

If every Army chief when faced in somewhat similar situations meekly resigns on the grounds that it is correct "etiquette" to do so and he must never challenge an order from superiors and meekly obey,the armed forces would be reduced to the status of domestic servants of babudom/politicos,who would further extend their intrusion to teach them the art of warfare -babu style,of backstabbing,chicanery,thievery,"looting and scooting"-you get the picture! Imagine the result if FM Sam M. had meekly obeyed Indira's orders and gone to war without adequate preparation in '71? But then she was a leader of of diff. class altogether who respected and listened to her army chief,unlike the imperious,arrogant and impotent lot of today.

One must not forget the infamous Dreyfuss scandal in France which gripped the world? A great wrong was set right in the end.This is what one hopes that the SC in all its wisdom will do in this case too.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 24 Jan 2012 07:25

From The Hindustan Times

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 24 Jan 2012 07:37

Badar wrote: What will probably be left unanswered as well in the short term is if it was worthwhile to pursue a remedy at all, with all the accompanying fallout. Not for Vicks, but for the rest of us.

VKS is an Indian citizen and COAS. He has sought to address his DOB through proper channels all this time.
Going to court is the last resort. He has all the rights as a citizen and COAS to approach the court for his grievance.
One can split one's hair for all its worth. He is doing what he thinks is right.
In the process he is bringing out the sordid ongoings in the bureaucracy/GOI. It is time to clean them.
crude example- A person has a festering wound. The patient is fine, has no pain at present, but the wound will grow due to infection and ultimately can cause sepsis and kill the patient.
It is better the festering wound is thoroughly debrided, cleaned and properly dressed/treated to ensure healing.
It does not come without pain.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 24 Jan 2012 07:43

Badar wrote:
SC is constrained to tackle the legal question only. The legal aspect is now only a minor part after the issue snowballed into a national media fueled drama. I don't think anyone is seriously under doubt as to what the correct DoB is or is waiting with a bated breath as to what the court will say the DoB is. I guess that some judgment will be passed based on some narrow legalistic point of view.

People have been casting aspersions on the morals and honesty of everyone from the COAS, his predecessors, the various selection boards, the civil bureaucracy as well as the political leadership. Will this be resolved, names cleared or condemned by the court? Bloody unlikely. Gossip, finger pointing, counter accusations will continue to fly.

What will also be left unanswered in the short term was if the court was an appropriate venue to pursue this case.

Truth comes at a price. nothing is free. even if SC comes out with its decision for or against VKS, his name will be sullied by people inimical to him. Some, despite all the evidence refuse to believe him.
VKS cannot convince all and sundry that he is honest.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 24 Jan 2012 07:50

VKS could have chosen the easier route of getting some GOI posts and enjoy his retirement days with lots of fame/money etc.
But he chose differently according to his convictions and his sense of fairplay.
whatever may be the end result, he will have tough time later. GOI might create some difficulties for him post retirement. he will be a commoner, will have trouble.
Considering his fight against the mandarins it is truly a david vs goliath fight.
If he wins, nothing much except his name sullied by @#$%^ you know them.
If he loses much worse.

considering the above scenarios he is fighting a uphill task, with more brickbats and little benefit to him but the benefits will largely accrue to the democratic institutions in the larger interests of the nation.

I salute him.
Remarkable soldier upholding the highest ideals for his nation.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jan 2012 08:53

I think he took a stand against the babucracy which has made the Indian military have no say in the security of the country. Its time to erase the Nehru Krishna Menon legacy of keeping the military in doghouse. No matter how it ends VKS has changed the system.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jan 2012 09:10

a change of pace:
http://the-diplomat.com/2012/01/17/indi ... ed-threat/

Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh may have told the country’s parliament last month that he doesn’t expect an attack by China, but India’s military is taking no chances.

The world’s second-largest army, which celebrated its 64th Army Day on January 15, is on the cusp of implementing a major transformation in its organizational structure and war strategies to meet a possible combined threat from China and its ally Pakistan.

The change follows more than half a decade of annual exercises involving one of India’s three strike corps and a desert corps, which have engaged in operations to fine-tune a strategy that would enable India to take Pakistan by surprise.

Under this concept, the defensive corps close to the border with Pakistan have been re-designated “pivot” corps, and have been handed enhanced offensive elements under integrated battle groups (IBG) that consist of division-sized forces comprising armor, artillery and aviation assets designed to swiftly hit Pakistan before the strike corps, located deeper inside India, would be able to mobilize.

This is supposed to offer India the so-called “cold start” option, under which the IBGs would swing into action in less than 48 hours.

Speaking to me for Indian broadcaster NDTV last week, Indian Army Chief Gen. V.K. Singh explained the concept, although he refrained from actually referring to it as “cold start.”

“Our aim was to make the army more agile, more lethal, more responsive, and networked army that is able to meet with the future threats,” he said. “To that extent, certain steps were laid down. One of the things we looked at was the restructuring of our organizations into groupings that will take place in battle. So, we have validated these. Certain changes have come about because of our validation in test bedding. These are coming into effect.”

The transformation study, carried out under Singh while he was commanding the Eastern Army as part of a previous assignment, started validating the concepts from 2010. As the Times of India noted, Exercise Vijayee Bhava (Be Victorious), for instance, practiced blitzkrieg-style operations to hit the enemy hard at short-notice. According to the paper, it essentially revolved around the armor-intensive 2 Corps.

However, the two-month-long Exercise Sudarshan Shakti, conducted in November and December of last year, not only took the concept further, but added several new dimensions to India’s war-fighting theories. For the first time, the Army successfully used its satellites and UAVs to provide a real-time picture and information of the war zone to battlefield commanders.

In addition, real-time links between sensor and shooter were tested, which enabled commanders to make decisions instantly, even as information was being shared among platforms and personnel.

Led and implemented by the Indian Army’s biggest and most lethal formation, the 21 Corps, the exercise witnessed the participation of over 60,000 troops and 300 tanks and brought together all elements – including air power – on one single platform. The air power on display reportedly included combat jets like the Su-30 MKI, Jaguars, MiG-27 and MiG-21, AWACS and helicopters.

But if “Sudarshan Shakti” was meant to authenticate India’s new war fighting strategy against Pakistan, a series of changes in the Northern and Eastern Commands of the Indian Army have quietly taken place over the past four years aimed at reorganizing India’s preparedness against China. As mentioned earlier, two new mountain divisions raised for deployment on the China frontier are now ready, which has added teeth to the Eastern Command and allowed the Army to reorganize a Reserve Corps into a full-fledged formation against China.

The reality is that although India has three “strike” or offensive corps aimed at Pakistan, it still lacks a dedicated offensive formation against China, regarded by the military as the bigger threat. A projected plan to raise a Mountain Strike Corps (since the terrain along the Chinese frontier is super high altitude) is currently pending with India’s Finance Ministry since it involves massive investment, to the tune of over $10 billion dollars, over the next five years. The Defense Ministry as well as the Army HQ is, however, hoping to kick-start the process of raising this formation sooner rather than later.

“At the moment we’re a threat-based organization. We’re moving towards a threat-cum-capability based one. And as the years go by, we will become a totally capability-based force,” Singh told me. “It has various implications like what kind of equipping norms you have, what kind of training that you do, what kind of resources you have to rapidly deploy to various places. So these are things that are being put into effect now, and by the time we see the result, it will take some time. It’s not that overnight we can change something.”

As I mentioned in my analysis following Army Day last year, the latest shift is aimed at strengthening the Army’s capabilities to fight what one general has called a war on “two and a half fronts” – a reference to possible simultaneous confrontation with Pakistan and China in addition to being deployed in a counter-insurgency situation internally .

So far, the four wars between India and Pakistan and one between India and China have been standalone conflicts, but Indian strategic thinkers say a future scenario under which close allies China and Pakistan launch a joint offensive against India is a distinct possibility. The Indian Army therefore wants to be ready for such an eventuality. And the way forward, the Army has concluded, is to become a fleet-footed force capable of quick mobilization and deployment.

According to an Indian military handout, the transformation “envisages seamless integration of available forces without the constraints of inflexible ‘commands.’"

“So far, each command and formation operated well within its prescribed boundaries and deployed the combat as well as support services only within its own jurisdiction,” the handout noted. “The transformation, however, seeks to break down these artificial boundaries to minimize losses and increase optimal utilization of resources. So in the years to come, the Indian Army will move from a 'command-based' deployment to a 'theater command' format where the 'front' or the spearhead will be seamlessly integrated with resources in the "depth" or the rear.”

Most senior military commanders agree that such massive exercises, which put to test both men and machine, help hone the skills of various frontline formations. Inter-services synergy based on advanced technology has been on the rise in the past five years and is therefore a major gain for the Indian military since future wars, whenever they take place, will be swift, short and fought under a technology-intensive umbrella.

Nitin Gokhale is Defence & Strategic Affairs Editor with Indian broadcaster, NDTV 24×7.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 24 Jan 2012 09:25

abhishek_sharma wrote:

From The Hindustan Times

Bet the official was Pulok Chatterjee, the all powerful Principal Secy to PM.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jan 2012 09:59

Badar wrote:
Austin wrote:so I would trust what SC has to say and will take it as just and right decision
SC is constrained to tackle the legal question only. The legal aspect is now only a minor part after the issue snowballed into a national media fueled drama. I don't think anyone is seriously under doubt as to what the correct DoB is or is waiting with a bated breath as to what the court will say the DoB is. I guess that some judgment will be passed based on some narrow legalistic point of view.

We cant be too sure if court will look at it from very narrow DOB issue or the entire issue on how he was promoted and which DOB was used in which occasion to get the promotion.........if it was just DOB then they can always look at birth certificate....... the way VKS has filed his petition he has mentioned all benifits that comes with DOB 1951... so it cannot be narrow view , atleast i feel govt will contest that.

Well i cannot second guess the court , lets wait and see how things shape up ......no need to reach conclusion in either ways

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 24 Jan 2012 10:19

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.co ... pery-slope

General on slippery slope….
Prashant Panday
23 January 2012, 11:02 AM IST

New facts have emerged which are challenging the claims made by General VK Singh regarding his age. His contention till now was that the date entered in the UPSC form for admission to the NDA in 1965 was a typo error – since the form had been filled up by a clerk. But now there are more facts emerging that show that the General may have made many more typo errors….

The first piece of new information is that it was not only in 1965 that the General mentioned 1950 as his date of birth (when the clerk filled up the entrance form for NDA). Four years later, he repeated that date of birth in the IMA confidential dossier before being commissioned into the Indian Army (this time in his own handwriting since the dossier is a confidential one).The General now claims that he repeated the error for the sake of having consistency with the previous NDA entrance form. This would mean that the General became aware of the mistake made in the previous NDA entrance form during these four years. How did that happen? If it was a clerical error, he would have no reason to suspect that the date was wrong in the NDA entrance form right? Nothing had happened in those four years that had brought up the error to his notice.{*new* fact, from a secret source}
The second piece of new information is that the Appointments Committee of the Cabinet (ACC) headed by the PM had sought a “second confirmation” from the General in January 2008 before General Singh was made one of the eight commanders of the Army. The ACC had returned the file back to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) even though the MoD had in fact taken that clarification from the General. The MoD then took a second clarification from the Army HQs that the date of birth was indeed 1950. The General now claims that he was pressurized by the then General Deepak Kapoor in accepting this date – and that as a soldier he could not disregard the then General’s orders. That’s a strange interpretration of discipline!

The third piece of information is that as recently as in November 2009, the General had again reassured General Deepak Kapoor that he would stick to the 1950 commitment he had made in 2008. This was four months before he was appointed Army Chief.

Unfortunately for General Singh, these emerging facts paint a rather poor picture of his claims. It gives the impressions that there is more to it than the General is claiming – that maybe, the General has been “opportunistic” – agreeing to 1950 when it suited the need and challenging it when that became more suitable.

Unfortunately also, it appears that the General is blaming others for all his problems. First, it was the clerk who filled up the date wrong in the NDA entrance form. Then it was his boss, the General of the Army in 2008, who ordered him to continue with 1950. Then again in 2009, it was his boss who ordered him to nod his head in servile obedience.

This is not the image we have of armymen. We expect many things from them – but most certainly we expect them to stand for honesty even at the cost of personal sacrifice. Here we have a situation where it appears that the General went along with all the confusion because it served his purpose then. And now he wants the date changed since it serves his purpose best now. This is hardly the kind of sacrifice and honesty we expect from our military leadership.

{'Mera Bharat Mahan' but this is not we expect from Army}

I had argued in my previous post on this subject a few days back that had 1951 been the date since the very beginning, the General would probably not even have become General. In a highly bureaucratic system of working – where “batch of commissioning” is the most important factor in deciding promotions – there is a world of a difference between 1950 and 1951 when the opportunity for a promotion opened up. There is many an officer of higher capability and better performance that has missed the opportunity to become General simply because another officer with a batch advantage was present at that time. Here it appears that the General preferred 1950 when being considered for the top job – thus edging past others from his peer group – but when he had achieved that goal, he’s now demanding that 1951 be considered the age.
{Is it established that VKS dob as 1950 was the criteria that allowed for his promotion? If it did not 'come into play' then, it cannot come into play now. If it did VKS has no case. Needless to say he would not have (or should not have) gone to SC and if SC sets the date at 1950 he invariably will have to go.}

There is no shame in the Government of India battling it out with the General in the Supreme Court. While it should ideally have been avoided, I don’t see anything wrong that the Government has done in its homework. The Government did do a second check before appointing him as the Chief. What more could it have done? It could have taken a safe approach and avoided promoting him given the controversy around his age. It chose not to do that – going by the word the army senior had given. Did it make a mistake in doing that? I don’t think so. It also tried to find an amicable settlement to the row over the last few days – but the General seemed bent on pursuing his battle.

It’s a personal battle that the General has taken to the Supreme Court and the apex court will no doubt settle the matter. {Then why blag about it} By rejecting a PIL in this regard, the SC has stated clearly that this is a personal suit and there is no way a PIL can be admitted. Equally, by rejecting the views of former CJIs, the SC has sent a strong message – stob lobbying. That’s another thing we do not expect from armymen. Armymen do not go around canvassing their case. {Is VKS canvassing? He has maintained it to be an administrative matter and is seeking redressal. It seems so.}

If there is anything that is harming the morale of the troops, it is the stand being taken their biggest boss – supposedly for personal gain. The next time a soldier is laying down his life on the borders, he will think if it is all worth it at all. If his top boss can put his personal gain ahead of the country’s, why should he not do the same? If the army is about discipline, the General’s conduct certainly hasn’t set a great benchmark. {WTF is that? Just roll over and die as you are canon fodder?}

In the past, we’ve seen sections of the army having got corroded by the cancer of corruption. Now we’re seeing the spread of personal ambitions – rather than the country’s needs – taking roots. This is the time for quick and decisive action. This is the time for the SC to send an appropriate message. {What about the day to day corruption, people encounter from people that are not armymen, that shafts the common man? SC to be used as a club to send a 'message'. Is it a mafia raj?}

The real truth is that the General has a lot of thinking and explaining to do. He has a lot of typo errors to correct, without making any more. He may well be right about his date of birth being 1951, but he will never be able to explain why he took so long to bring the matter up like this. He will never be able to explain why even four months before he was appointed General, he didn’t correct the perception. And he will never be able to explain, why four months before retirement, he has now brought this issue up. The General is on a slippery slope….
{The matter is in court. Let it decide. Hopefully we'll not have to wait for too long.}

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These kind of BS articles are floating around.

BTW, CJI in the past have themselves had their version of the DOB controversy, so that might be used as a precedent.

New buzz word should be CMR, more and more.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Jan 2012 11:50

What is obvious from all the reports and blogs on the DOB issue is that a pincer assault has been launched by the GOI (read: babus) to tarnish the image of the General. Bits of news and information are being released to various moles in the media in an effort to cover all the bases. And the most obvious hint that the information is being leaked and shared by MOD babus is the very nature of the information - this is all confidential information and expcept for MOD and IA, none can have access to it.

And the shameless cretins from the media continue to repeat the same set of lies and pass judgements. Again, ack thoo...

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 24 Jan 2012 12:20

In the meantime the focus has shifted away from the important acquisitions to keep the Indian army a fit fighting force. Sort of like the retail FDI thing to keep the focus away from lokpal.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 24 Jan 2012 12:29

It is definitely for the best that this matter is in court of law and I hope that the court will take a very narrow and legalistic view of this matter concerning only what is the good general' s date of birth.

All the existential factors are irrelevant as at the time of recruitment into any organization it is the prerogative of that particular organization to verify the correct date of birth via the official documents presented and nothing else

sukhish · Post by **sukhish** » 24 Jan 2012 12:30

It looks like people in this forum have nothing but contempt for GOI. Army is great, may we should make army run this country, just like the way some of our neighboring countries are being run.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 24 Jan 2012 12:35

It looks like people in this forum have nothing but contempt for GOI. Army is great, may we should make army run this country, just like the way some of our neighboring countries are being run

.

If that is what you have concluded after reading more than 50 pages of this thread, then I can safely conclude that you are just another a$$hole, like many across the border!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Jan 2012 12:40

Sanku wrote:Hardly a comparison, for obvious reasons. If Congress could sack him and did for a specific reason, even that would be better.

Well look at it this way , AVB never got an opportunity to even approach the court , he was kicked out in a clean operation let by Intel and Government of the day.

VKS will still get a fair chance to speak for himself in the SC and get a verdict that most would consider it fair no matter what ever the outcome.

I would say NDA was more hard on him then UPA on the present chief but then i dont want to politicise either of these , it was the government decision at that point in time to do what they did.

Let not make this as some congress versus Army chief ..considering this is at the foot step of SC and we can expect a fair trial after hearing both parties. So lets wait and see how this plays out in court.