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PostPosted: 25 Jan 2012 12:39 
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What about CAPFs (or Paramilitary forces)? Can they keep beards? If so, he may be from SRG.
BTW, two other pics from last year showing another bearded NSG commando.
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PostPosted: 25 Jan 2012 15:11 
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how is he able to tape together two extra mags outside the rifle without any visible tape?


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PostPosted: 25 Jan 2012 16:20 
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The magazines come with complimentary sets of connectors to stack them together. The fact that the magazines are made of polymer helps.

See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Caroline-chargeur-plein-p1000499b.jpg


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PostPosted: 26 Jan 2012 12:35 
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The flag flies high

An account of the Chachro Raid with some very good photos


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PostPosted: 26 Jan 2012 13:33 
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^^
Thanks a lot mate. The pics are really nothing short of a treasure.


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PostPosted: 28 Jan 2012 18:02 
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Just remembered something. Last Dec, I came across a TA soldier from Parachute Regiment in full uniform. I was intrigued to see that he was wearing parawings on his right chest plate. So, I had a little chat with him and came to know that even TA go through static line jumps! This was news to me!


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PostPosted: 29 Jan 2012 00:15 
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Gaur wrote:
Just remembered something. Last Dec, I came across a TA soldier from Parachute Regiment in full uniform. I was intrigued to see that he was wearing parawings on his right chest plate. So, I had a little chat with him and came to know that even TA go through static line jumps! This was news to me!


Yups. Infact MS Dhoni was recently commissioned in the para regiment of the TA.


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PostPosted: 29 Jan 2012 02:37 
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Gaur wrote:
So, I had a little chat with him and came to know that even TA go through static line jumps! This was news to me!


ummm.....he can't be in para (TA) if he is not at least static line qualified, no? :)


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PostPosted: 29 Jan 2012 02:47 
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The officer named MP Chaudhry in the Chachro raid photos - is he the same guy (name sounds familiar) who was later associated with NSG?


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PostPosted: 29 Jan 2012 02:53 
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SPG with FN- P 90 8)
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PostPosted: 29 Jan 2012 07:26 
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RB

Yes


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PostPosted: 30 Jan 2012 19:03 
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Love the way the P-90 snugly matches up into the body of the carrier. You would hardly notice it's there. So does it mean that the 'briefcase guns' are no longer carried? The SPG or somebody else used to carry it sometime back in the 80s & 90s.

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PostPosted: 30 Jan 2012 20:31 
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From here: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/26-11-it-took-5-hrs-to-decide-on-sending-nsg-find-aircraft/472337/0

Col. MP Chaudhary(retd.)

Quote:
Sir, What ever Mr Dutta told the nation during WALK THE TALK with Indian Express was lies and lies. When I commanded the SPECIAL GROUP in 1982 out of which the NSG was born, we had one AN12 fully tanked up capable of taking 120 men (20tons) ready at Palam every time with pilots sleeping at the airport. The plane had all the bomb squad and other equipment like ladders etc. along with ammunition and explo and implosives, heavier sniper rifles of the duty group loaded. My duty group was ready within 20 minutes at Palam to take off any where. We had along with R@AW and IB worked on intelligence regarding all possible targets during Nam, CHOG(M) and Asian Games and practiced live on the same. To day I can ask as to why this top heavy NSG was sleeping till 26/11. All these years as a responsible Counter Terrorist Force, NSG should have collected detailed maps and other intelligence of all the targets in the country. Like us NSG should have practiced live on these targets.


Quote:
Sir, NSG was raised in 1985 out of the SPECIAL GROUP, the Counter Terrorist Force I raised duing 1982/83, by transfering two of my companies lock stock and barrel and naming then 51 and 52 SAG which are the teeth arm of the NSG. The rot started from the day this transfer was done. There was no proper traibning, no further import of weapons and equipment which we had like the audio and vidio bugs, tapped explosives and implosives and special plastic ladders n equipment to break open the doors silently. We practiced firing with pistols at 20, MP-5 at 50 and sniper rifles at 1000 meters on targets head shots with officers and men standing next to the targets. The anti hostage drill were practiced with live hostages and terrorist in the room while we entered through glass doors (bollywood style) and front door blasting off by implosives to fully surprise the terrorists. How ever the NSG dealt with the operatrions like untrained infantry in built up area operations without seeking them.


Enough material to raise the BP of Surya-ullah for next couple of days!!!! :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 30 Jan 2012 20:44 
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as my friend who served under MP says

the man is honest - what he says may hurt but it is the truth and its all directed at the idiots at the top.

If I say more I will sound like ASP :)

Only minor thing I might add - what MP says is true but credit for those days goes to him and another chap who was with him -

we will let his name slide for now :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 30 Jan 2012 20:49 
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I guess his legacy in SG aka 22 SF carries on....


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 23:35 
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Image

Quote:
Normally chatty, the pilots of the squadron are reticent about talking about their recent operations for reasons of security, But over a period of three days, your correspondent managed to piece together a typical scenario with the help of the squadron to try and understand what it actually does.

The 202 Squadron is based in a location that renders all the areas of the valley approximately equidistant in terms of flying time for their Dhruv helicopters.

A UAV (Unmanned Aerial Vehicle) is carrying out a surveillance sortie above the north western mountains bordering the valley. The fresh snowfall at the higher reaches tends to give away the movement of terrorists, since the only other presence in these inhospitable heights would be security forces.

The UAV pilot detects several sets of footprints in the snow with the high definition camera onboard and passes the data up the channel.

The record low number of infiltration attempts in the past year had made militants desperate.

The fact that the foot prints would have to be relatively fresh to remain visible even with the intermittent snowfall prevalent in these parts, increases their confidence of a possible interception. Meanwhile, the UAV circles over the location, following the tracking the footprints until they trail into the vegetation of a forest.

And so an operation is launched. A wide net is cast with patrols converging on the locations to surround it and set up a perimeter, without alerting the targets to their presence.

The pilots at 202 have already been informed of the possibility of being called up and begin preparing for the operation. While the engineering officers configure the aircraft for slithering, placing weapons and other special heliborne operations, the pilots assemble at the briefing room with maps and charts of the area to figure out their flight path and insertion points, and wait.

The detailed final tasking leaves no room for ambiguity and clearly lays out the role of the squadron. The terrorists remain in the forest, believing themselves safe in the shelter from the marginal weather.

The Special Forces unit has been on the job as well, familiarizing themselves with the terrain where they could establish contact on the basis of satellite imagery.

The call comes at five in the evening.

Four Dhruv helicopters are to deliver the troops and a Cheetah helicopter, fitted with a High Resolution Camera and Infra Red Surveillance System, will detect any thermal signatures in the cold environment. Three of the Dhruvs will insert commandos while the fourth will maintain standby position with a squad of commandos ready to deploy in case of an attempted escape. A UAV will provide overwatch.

The commandos board the aircraft, their gear double checked, and the pilots wave off the ground marshals and bring their aircraft to a hover.

The UAV sends in final confirmation of the layout: A slope which ends in a gradual gradient at the top, on the base of which is the forest, extending nearly two kilometers downhill. The forest is snowbound on all sides so any movement outside is likely to be picked up.

Flying close formation and nap-of-the-earth in coarse terrain, the Gideons use the folds of the ground to hide their fast moving task force from the terrorists. The autopilot and advanced onboard navigation system take the helicopters to the predetermined location. All this, while maintaining constant communication with the surveillance detachments monitoring the forest, and headquarters, beyond line-of-sight over the onboard VHF and HF radio.

Just before the last turn towards the valley where the intended Landing Zone (LZ) lay, the pilots switch to manual to hand-guide the aircraft, masking their flight to check out the LZ before deplaning the commandos. While the first helicopters overflies the forest and comes to a low hover over the gradual slope, the second tier moves closer towards the southern edge of the forest closer to the pine forest and slithers the troops down.

The fourth Dhruv circles at a distance, keeping the other three in sight and waits to deploy additional troops on the ground. The Cheetah and the drone keep the operation under watch.

The commandos cut off the militant group from the south and the gradual slope above. As soon as the first squad reaches the edge of the forest, they make contact and the fire-fight begins. This is when the fourth helicopter moves into position to drop the squad that to cut off the escape route of the terrorists.

For twenty minutes the commandos pound the location of the terrorists with automatics and grenades. The commandos carefully entered the forest, and closed in. The militants fire a rocket at the fourth helicopter, missing it but giving it a good shaking. But this also gives away the position of the launcher and the commandos silence it quickly.

Half an hour and the terrorists are neutralized. Time elapsed from first sighting by the UAV: One hour.

But the commandos find they’ve also taken casualties and pull out two hit by splinters and one critical, with a femoral artery rupture. While they mop up, a CASEVAC call has been sent out and an air ambulance configured Dhruv is on its way.

As it closes in on their location, the extraction of the commandos has already begun, while the Cheetah helicopter scans the area one last time for signs of life. The infantry moves in to clear the area and take custody of the dead terrorists.

After sunset, the pilots now fly with their Night Vision Goggles (NVG), operating under minimum light conditions which are further exacerbated by the shadows thrown by the mountains.

The commandos at the LZ mark it with Infra-Red markers and lights to guide the pilots to a safe landing point. The doctor arrives and loads the casualties on the aircraft, which can carry four stretchers and other life saving equipment.

He stabilizes the casualties giving in-flight first aid and treatment for trauma to deliver them safely into the care of waiting surgeons and doctors on ground.

Twelve terrorists are killed and a large cache of arms and ammunition recovered.

The Dhruvs eliminated the need for a long, grueling mountain walk by the security forces and reduced the reaction time from possibly a few days to a couple of hours, making intelligence inputs truly actionable. Meanwhile, the Special Forces and 202 Squadron continue to devise newer tactics for Special Heliborne Operations.


More at:

http://www.stratpost.com/army-day-speci ... ng-gideons


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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2012 00:06 
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thanks Aditya


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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2012 07:50 
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I guess problems can be fixed if the VIP protection SRG part of NSG (presumably huge) is split out and retains the maneswar campus, while only 300 persons are kept in SAG and they mostly attach and train with the para cdo units and some shadowy new facility out of the media limelight. they should be centralized and be given a C130J to reach anywhere in india from palam or hindon.

we need a GSG9 for the tough calls, not a 10,000 person kala-billi army to guard the umpteen people who call themselves VIP here.

its a lot easier if control and funding for SAG-Nuova rests with Army rather than the home ministry fatkats.


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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2012 22:20 
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You are welcome, Surya. What struck me most about the article is the reference to 202 Squadron as a full fledged Army aviation unit, and not just collection of 'R&O Flights' dispersed across number of bases, like we have had till now.

Surya wrote:
thanks Aditya


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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2012 23:40 
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Aditya G wrote:
You are welcome, Surya. What struck me most about the article is the reference to 202 Squadron as a full fledged Army aviation unit, and not just collection of 'R&O Flights' dispersed across number of bases, like we have had till now.

Surya wrote:
thanks Aditya


AFAIK, we always had R&O Squadrons with each Corps having one squadron. Each Squadron is made of 3 R&O flights.


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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012 00:04 
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Desi Night Stalkers :D Nice!


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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012 05:26 
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hopefully the day will come when the unlucky (for SF) haphruda forests can be cleared without any casualties if any pigs get in.

Wonder if this was in all place before would Major mohit Sharmas SF team had better luck. :(


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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012 11:49 
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http://blogs.intoday.in/index.php?optio ... ml&blogs=2

Quote:
The helicopter shuddered as a sudden gust of wind threatened to slam it against the sheer rock face. The pilots, both young officers of the Indian Air Force, were trying to land at a small helipad carved out of the jagged peaks at 13,000 feet in north Kashmir.

With the rotors still whirring, one of the pilots leaned back and opened the door signalling for us - my cameraman and I - to jump out and run straight towards the officers waiting for us. Do not run towards the rear - the tail rotor is almost invisible, he had cautioned earlier. We jumped out as a gust of icy wind almost took my breath away.

But this was an exclusive we were not going to miss. Access to the 'conflict zone', in north Kashmir. Intelligence agencies had warned about the 'mass infiltration'. Early warning posts were talking about the increased movement or hulchul in military parlance across the Line of Control. Sources were talking about terrorists having assembled across the Line of Control, north of Pir Panjal planning section and platoon level (groups between 10 and 30) infiltration.

And the second fortnight of March had been terrible. Two major infiltrations in Gurez and Drangyari Kupwara areas. What was worse, one officer Major Mohit Sharma and seven other ranks of the elite one Para special forces had been killed in the encounter with terrorists.

Not just any soldiers. These were special forces. And that too 1 Para. Considered the Army Commander's own. Our aim was to show to our viewers the area where the operations were taking place. Also to see, how the terrorists had infiltrated and that too in such large numbers - 120 in all. The army, however, says only 31 were combatants, the rest porters and guides.

On the army's grid map Sadhna pass did not look all that menacing nor did the entire Shamsabari range. But on ground this was as bad if not worse than Kargil, where I had covered the conflict in 1999.

Now the army is well-deployed here in north Kashmir. But like in Kargil, it were the nullahs and passes where ambushes were laid, traditional infiltration routes guarded and patrolled. The terrorists used the treacherous high altitude avalanche prone mountains to infiltrate.

Caught off guard again? Initially yes! 120 men cannot sneak across the Line of Control undetected. Somewhere the systems failed completely. Foot patrolling, anti-infiltration obstacle system (the 12-feet high fence was completely buried in snow), sensors, helicopter reconnaissance all failed. But sources say there was intelligence available and ambushes were laid. So what happened?

Apparently, the Lashkar-e-Taiba guide sent by Abu Saad, the Rajwar Lashkar commander to get the new group and reinforcements lost his way. This was a blessing in disguise for the terrorists. They evaded the army's elaborate trap. But the army tracked them. At Drangyari 'contact' happened just before dawn. The army 'let them have it'. But under the cover of darkness, the group split and melted. This was on March 20. The same night, special force commandoes including the team led by Major Mohit Sharma of the 1 Para SF was helidropped 'behind enemy lines'.

But unknown to the army, the terrorists were watching the entire helidrop operations. The brave major and his team were hunting the terrorists. The terrorists had the advantage of height. They were well hidden behind rocks. Suddenly the hunter was the hunted. The brave major and his team are learnt to have put up a fierce firefight. But the terrorists had the advantage of height, element of surprise and cover.


The next morning over a dozen army teams fanned out. They hunted the terrorists, killing 25 in all, over the next 10 days. Six terrorists were killed in an avalanche but so were eight soldiers.

The recoveries were huge - 13,000 rounds of AK ammunition, one RPG, 25 AK-47 rifles, hundreds of grenades, 32 kgs of explosives. The terrorists were extremely 'well-kitted' and trained to fight and survive in high altitudes. Multi-layered high altitude clothing, snow boots, detailed six grid maps, GPS, satellite phones, radio sets...the works. All pointing towards the direct involvement of the Pakistani security forces.

But there are very important lessons here for the army. While it is good, troops are now helidropped to deal with terrorists at high altitudes (imagine climbing for 9 hours at 12,000 feet and then fighting) it has to be back to the basics. High altitude jungle warfare training, tracking and evasive tactics - the basics need to be second nature. We cannot afford to lose even a single soldier in this war against terror. We cannot afford to be trapped in terror's Chakra Vyuh.

The army also needs to ensure better back up. Heliborne fire power is a must. It is nobody's point that the army is not looking after its soldiers. But the army needs to do much more. The Generals are Generals because they are now meant to fight battles in South Block and ensure the fighting force gets the best back up money can buy.

It is a war out there. It will only get worse as the snow melts. For the army it is hunting season. But the hunter must not become the hunted. EVER!

May 13, 2009 Posted by Gaurav C. Sawant


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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012 12:47 
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^^^Thanks.


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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012 13:17 
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^^The true account of what happened during Major Sharma and his team's encounter with the terrorists (actually SSG in mufti) never came out in the public. Were there any survivors from his team?


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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012 15:59 
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^^^Is the SSG part a lungar gup or based on some concrete assumptions?Thanks.


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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012 18:33 
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Dear Rohit, Surya

What is an Assault Team in our Para SF setup? eg: Maj Mohit Sharma was part of the "B Assault Team" that day.


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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012 18:35 
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approx section strength IIRC. correct me if I'm wrong, gents.


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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012 19:43 
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Quote:
The next morning over a dozen army teams fanned out. They hunted the terrorists, killing 25 in all, over the next 10 days. Six terrorists were killed in an avalanche but so were eight soldiers.

So we lost a total of 16 SF folks, 8 ( of Major Sharma+ his team) and another 8 SF in avalanche?


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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012 21:04 
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no

we lost the 8 sF soldiers


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 03:16 
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<quote>While it is good, troops are now helidropped to deal with terrorists at high altitudes (imagine climbing for 9 hours at 12,000 feet and then fighting) it has to be back to the basics. High altitude jungle warfare training, tracking and evasive tactics - the basics need to be second nature.</q>

I can't help thinking that that statement implies tactics used could've been better ? Can the gurus explain ?


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 08:20 
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unless Gaurav meant in some general sense or it got warped in some editorial pressure - it defintely does not mean Major mohit sharma and his men lacked something other than luck.

my friend had been his senior and though shaken said his boys did him proud, fighting hard against odds with the terrain against them.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 08:26 
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a russian spetsnaz unit also got destroyed in chechnya once. I think they lost 30 people in that one ambush.

perhaps instead of small sections using dhruv, we need Mi17V to insert 30 people in one shot when strong enemy forces is suspected. overkill is good.

and having some WSI Dhruv/armed drones would be nice for such fights.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 08:37 
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How accurate are the coordinates that can be acquired by UAVs? Good enough to feed into precision guided artillery?


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 08:54 
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small units are always at risk if something goes wrong

Hezbollah trapped a Israeli naval SF team and shot it to pieces.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 09:26 
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The fundamental issue is that of determining locations of targets in real time, and rapidly delivering ordinance accurately to those locations.

What is needed is UAVs fitted with SARs, thermal imaging cameras etc which can accurately acquire targets within an accuracy of a couple of meters say, and the ability to send PGMs there.

Any ideas on what is possible in principle, and what DRDO might be able to deliver.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 09:36 
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^^^^
While GPS can be accurate to < 1 meter resolution, that capability is only available to the US military. Everyone else has to make do with a degraded signal which is accurate to around 20 meters resolution or so. The only way to get around this is to create your own GPS system, which some countries are attempting to do, such as the EU's Galileo system and India's IRNSS program. However, these systems are still under development and until they are brought online, everyone has to rely on the GPS system from the US.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 09:57 
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ArmenT wrote:
^^^^
While GPS can be accurate to < 1 meter resolution, that capability is only available to the US military. Everyone else has to make do with a degraded signal which is accurate to around 20 meters resolution or so. The only way to get around this is to create your own GPS system, which some countries are attempting to do, such as the EU's Galileo system and India's IRNSS program. However, these systems are still under development and until they are brought online, everyone has to rely on the GPS system from the US.


Right ... but IMHO the harder issue is coordinates acquisition. You can put a gimballed camera on a UAV. You know the location of the UAV with GPS, and you can get roll and pitch values with level sensors. Using a series of GPS measurements can give you the approx bearing, but then if there is a wind, the UAV may not be pointing in the direction of travel. A compass would also give approx data.

Perhaps better to use 2 UAVs and get the target coordinates by triangulation. First get approx location using one UAV, then get both UAVs to take simultaneous snaps of the site. Then a human operator takes the two images and manually locates the target on each. You have the GPS readings of each UAV at the instant of the snaps. You would also have a non-real time satellite image of the area, with coordinates grid.

Of course one or both UAVs can be replaced by a soldier on the ground, but you may often not have somebody on the ground when a target is first spotted in a remote area.

The question is what accuracy you can get by using all this data.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 10:42 
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> What is needed is UAVs fitted with SARs, thermal imaging cameras etc

the Rustom-1 UAV is planned to use such payloads, perhaps what we do not have will be israeli.

the larger Israeli UAV like Heron and Eitan are already operating with such payloads...

but ofcourse issue is having the network that can pipe their feed with or without processing directly into laptops and handhelds carried by SF units as the american special forces have such eqpt. these units can either attack themselves or call in helicopter gunships into the role.....in theory


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 11:07 
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Surya et al, thanks


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