UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

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Shrinivasan
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Shrinivasan »

Aditya_M wrote:Uh, guys, bad news on the Pulse Jet UAV.

Link

Scroll a little down and second video and second photo.

:evil:
pray what is the bad news.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Rahul M »

Aditya, very nice article on livefist, well written, thorough and conclusive IMHO.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/12/gu ... -lost.html
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by SaiK »

^
The UAV may be a blended wing design, but there are no obvious "stealth" characteristics. A meshed air intake is not enough to make an aircraft low-observable and could simply be there to prevent foreign object damage (FOD). The control surfaces too do not have any serrated (jagged) edges that are needed to spread radio wave reflections; neither do various panels on the aircraft.
It is not necessary to have externally visible serrated edges to get stealth features.
The meshed intake is only to structurally support the blended body. The actual engines are much away from the center.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Anujan »

Most probably the aircraft lost contact with Khan ground station. And most probably ran out of fuel. Perhaps it has been programmed to glide down if that happens.

Musharraf pulled speculations onlee.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by P Chitkara »

Gliding down safely is the last thing anyone would want. One wouldn’t want to gift away such piece of technology to the enemy; right?

Looking at the size of this thing, it would easily weigh close to a ton. How can such a heavy machine remain intact after a fall even from a thoussand feet? There wouldn’t be many people out there buying the theory that the Iranian cyber personnel hijacked it and brought it down.

As far as flat spin is concerned, the plane doesn’t come down gently like a leaf. It is a fast decent – saw it in a simulator. The simulation itself may not be very accurate but it still gives a reasonable idea.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by ranjbe »

UAV spying of Iran has been going on since 2004, according to article in FP.
Since Iran is among the most important intelligence collection priority, it would only make sense for the United States to utilize its most advanced capabilities, just as the U-2 spy plane was a half-century ago. The United States has reportedly been flying drones of various capabilities and missions over Iran since as early as April 2004, some of which Iranians believed to be UFOs. The following year, Iran protested the drone flights to the United States through Swiss diplomatic channels, and via letters to the U.N. Security Council, demanding "an end to such unlawful acts." The RQ-170 Sentinel drone itself, pictures of which were first published in 2007, had flown from Afghan airbases over Iran "for years," according to the Associated Press. (Of course, Iran also flies surveillance drones against U.S. military assets, as demonstrated in this grainy video of the USS Ronald Reagan.)
When the ill-fated U-2 was lost over the Soviet Union, its superior replacement, the A-12 OXCART, was already well under development at the ultra-secret Skunk Works facilities -- so the U-2 was no huge loss. Similarly, the Sentinel's downing will only be a temporary setback. As Aviation Week reported, the Sentinel's sensor package considered "so invaluable when it debuted in Afghanistan about two years ago is considered outdated." The hyper-spectral sensor capabilities mounted on future stealth drones will make the RQ-170 Sentinel seem quaint. When those future drones also unfortunately fall onto the territory of Iran or other adversaries, people will be surprised and unnecessarily alarmed then, too.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... ne_so_what
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Aditya_M »

P Chitkara wrote:Gliding down safely is the last thing anyone would want. One wouldn’t want to gift away such piece of technology to the enemy; right?

Looking at the size of this thing, it would easily weigh close to a ton. How can such a heavy machine remain intact after a fall even from a thoussand feet? There wouldn’t be many people out there buying the theory that the Iranian cyber personnel hijacked it and brought it down.

As far as flat spin is concerned, the plane doesn’t come down gently like a leaf. It is a fast decent – saw it in a simulator. The simulation itself may not be very accurate but it still gives a reasonable idea.
You'd be surprised how intact aircraft can be on crashing. If the primary FCS is working to keep the wings level, then it can easily survive impact. Large airliners are made to withstand belly-landings, why not a UAV with a very low stall speed? The most notable case is this one, where the aircraft was salvaged after the pilot ejected. A flat, controlled spin results in a surprisingly low velocity.

SaiK - Fair enough, but wouldn't you put in the edges if you had to design a stealthy UAV? IMO Stealth was not the primary driver behind the design, sensible aerodynamics was.

Shrnivasan

The bad news is it looks like NAL bought a kit aircraft and passed it off as their own development.

Rahul, thanks :)
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by hnair »

er folks.... before we :(( over a tube that is hot-glued on top of Burt Rutan's weiner-plane being passed off as cool by NAL...... Yes, pulse-jet (valved ones of V2 and the U-shaped ones) is old school and are poor burners of fuel (fuel burning method is conventional - deflagration or some such where the flame front goes at a lazy pace) with lots of wastage. If they improved that, it is not a bad thing in itself.

But if it is Pulse-detonation engines they are talking about here..... that is rocking. It needs serious research and the big boys of the world (Dark Agint Researchers Phor A-khans) were/are seriously looking into it. The burning method itself is exotic (detonation vs deflagr...whatever) and has issues with stabilizing the process as well as, er, noise. If we actually did some stuff on that and made it fly, kudos. And Burt-sahib's weiner-plane was the one that lugged a working version of khan's engine over Mojave.

IIRC, a few years ago, we drooled over a report of DRDO about some annular external combustion reference, wonder what happened there? :oops:
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Raveen »

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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Garooda »

Aditya_M
There are several possible scenarios. It could also have been a cheap/stripped down bait for the Russian made Avtobaza (ELINT) to test the Defense System. Google the term 'HONEYPOT' :) Drones are made to avoid loss of human lives. $6 million would rank it just ahead of a paper airplane in US military budget terms. While it is embarrassing for the US, it's not going to worry them too much. They lost an F-117 over Yugoslavia 12 years ago. That was a much bigger concern back then but nothing has come out of it now.

Accidents and malfunctions do occur in all the military equipments which is nothing new. Especially when there is a prolonged usage of it. The RQ-170 type has been in use for a while. What surprises me that generally the equipments of sensitive nature are equipped with micro thermites to self destruct the crucial electronics. I wonder if that has taken place :) Engine failure is another frequent issue in which case a flat spin will not necessarily damage the aircraft significantly. It was designed to fall flat in which case it might explain the tapes around the wings which might have snapped along with damaging the landing gear and undercarriage after a flat fall.

Next few weeks will hopefully shed some light on this.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by vic »

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ne/455454/

India is developing an umanned aerial vehicle (UAV) similar to American Predator drones with an investment of Rs 1,500 crore and planning an unmanned combat vehicles, a key official involved in the project said today.

UAV Rustom-2 project is spread over 66 months, Director of Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) laboratory, P S Krishnan, said here.

Rustom-2 would have a wing-span of 21-odd metres and an endurance of 24-hours-plus, as against seven-odd metres and 12-15 hours of Rustom-1, which has already completed five flights. ADE is the nodal lab for these projects. Rustom-2 would have new payloads such as synthetic aperture radar, maritime patrol radar and collision avoidance system, among others, he said.
India has also started working on solar-powered UAVs but is still at the R&D stage.

DRDO’s Chief Controller (Aero) A Subhananda Rao said this solar-powered UAV would have an endurance of “almost one week”.

A look at the specifications make me guess:-

Rustom 2 - piston engine powered MTOW around 1800kg

Rustom 3 - same wing but turboprop powered MTOW 5000kg

Rustom 4 - bigger airframe and wing turbofan powered MTOW 10 tons
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Singha »

global hawk is at rustom-4 level and china has also been showing off something similar in blurry photos , they are working hard on it. which is why
> UAV Rustom-2 project is spread over 66 months

is not good enough...esp given our limited manpower that can only work on serial projects not enough to work in parallel.

we need to start work on a global hawk sized project in a overlapping manner not wait until rustom2 is all done. if necessary we should obtain foreign help from whoever is willing or invite sukhoi into a JV that even russia could use with their own payloads.

use the Larzac , Al55 or honeywell jaguar engine whichever fits the bill. we will have base repair wkshops for two of them soon.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Singha »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EADS_Talarion

btw this EADS project has no buyers in the home nations but Turkey has funded it. so you can bet the pakis will close behind in the queue.

turks already have a rustom2 spec thing flying http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_Anka

israel has the rustom-3 spec Eitan in service.

we are lagging behind...
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Singha »

Hnair has a good point , if its pulse detonation engine is indeed bleeding edge r&d
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse_detonation_engine

To date, no practical PDE has been put into production, but several testbed engines have been built and one was successfully integrated into a low-speed demonstration aircraft that flew in sustained PDE powered flight in 2008. In June 2008, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) unveiled Blackswift which was intended to use this technology to reach speeds of up to Mach 6.[4] However the project was cancelled soon afterward, in October 2008.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackswift#Blackswift

-
NAL has likely built a small scale model for bigger meat coming later..NAL being more a science facility than product lab would be in charge for laying the groundwork for what comes beyond the hypersonic engine in brahmos2.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Kailash »

^^^ from the same wiki link for PDE
The main difference between a PDE and a traditional pulse jet engine is that the mixture does not undergo subsonic combustion but instead, supersonic detonation. In the PDE, the oxygen and fuel combination process is supersonic, effectively an explosion instead of burning. The other difference is that the shutters are replaced by more sophisticated valves.
So its primarity designed for supersonic/hypersonic speeds ! Though It is possible to have subsonic flight tests, mating it with the current Rustom airframe (which doesnt look like designed for super/hyper sonic flights), would not be very productive.

If they are working on a supersonic derivative of Rustom which will eventually house this engine, that would be interesting :wink:

Though we have the fuel mix, tech for sustained combusion at hypersonic speeds etc, wont get my hopes up. Got this link. It lists valving, structural strengthening, life span and noise as the major problems faced by any PDE.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Singha »

^ The other difference is that the shutters are replaced by more sophisticated valves

livefist: indigenously developed valved pulsejet engine.

tea leaves...
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Craig Alpert »

Chaiwalla says - The problem with Iran's account is that three drones were in air at the time of malfunction, flying a grid pattern. The one that malfunctioned was spotted by one of the two when it hit the ground. Sources are saying that a pre planned flight contorl locked in a tight turn, thus causing the drone to fly in a tight circle at 35k feet for approximately 8.5 hrs. Control was lost, and the thinking is that computer system shutdown, and never came back up. It seems from sources that this drone has had a problem in past. There is a lot more to the story that will be coming out. Over 1,100 flights have been flown in the area, and one hits the ground... 1100 to one... The other two drones showed no problems, and one of the two was above and below the malfunctioning drone watching it hit the ground... Kinda reminds me of Baghdad Bob.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Gerard »

Iran hijacked US drone, says Iranian engineer
Iranian electronic warfare specialists were able to cut off communications links of the American bat-wing RQ-170 Sentinel, says the engineer, who works for one of many Iranian military and civilian teams currently trying to unravel the drone’s stealth and intelligence secrets, and who could not be named for his safety.

Using knowledge gleaned from previous downed American drones and a technique proudly claimed by Iranian commanders in September, the Iranian specialists then reconfigured the drone's GPS coordinates to make it land in Iran at what the drone thought was its actual home base in Afghanistan.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Surya »

Oh come on Gerard

how did you not post this gem
A former senior Iranian official who asked not to be named said: "There are a lot of human resources in Iran.... Iran is not like Pakistan
:rotfl: :rotfl:
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Singha »

Iran does have a formidable track record in events like IMO and IPO. no doubt they can find the people for EW or anything math oriented.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Pranav »

Gerard wrote:Iran hijacked US drone, says Iranian engineer
Iranian electronic warfare specialists were able to cut off communications links of the American bat-wing RQ-170 Sentinel, says the engineer, who works for one of many Iranian military and civilian teams currently trying to unravel the drone’s stealth and intelligence secrets, and who could not be named for his safety.

Using knowledge gleaned from previous downed American drones and a technique proudly claimed by Iranian commanders in September, the Iranian specialists then reconfigured the drone's GPS coordinates to make it land in Iran at what the drone thought was its actual home base in Afghanistan.
I would have thought that military grade GPS signals are encrypted! How could they spoof them?
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Aditya_M »

Pranav wrote:I would have thought that military grade GPS signals are encrypted! How could they spoof them?
They are. US Military GPS uses the L2 frequency and P-code encryption. They would have to use four channels of the frequency at least, break the encryption AND hide the existing channels so that the UAV does not notice the discrepancies.

All the time while synchronising the four fake channels with an accurate clock (something nearing atomic clock precision) and transmitting the right locations.

And they would have to know exactly what the UAV's guidance profile is, how it is brought in to land.

And they would have to broadcast from above, since the GPS on the UAV would have its antennae pointing upward. The UAV's body would severely attenuate signals from below, enough to not overcome actual GPS signals.

Oh, and I'm willing to bet that it carried dual redundant GPS - since it has been proved that it's possible to determine the attitude of the aircraft by detecting the difference in phase of the signal when the antennae are sufficiently apart.

And my final question - if it was spoofed into landing in such a nice and easy manner... why hide the bottom half of the UAV?

So forgive me if I'm more than a bit sceptical of Iranian claims :)
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Aditya_M »

Singha wrote:Iran does have a formidable track record in events like IMO and IPO. no doubt they can find the people for EW or anything math oriented.
No doubt they can find the people - I went to uni with a few Iranians and they had the same distribution of super-smart to what-the-hell-is-this-guy-doing-here people. My question is, can they find the right tech? I'll put it this way: I think India is way ahead in tech as compared to Iran, and we would find it hard (if not impossible) to do what they are claiming to have done. They have had it much worse than us in access to even high-tech education - let alone being able to use the actual tools.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Surya »

Aditya
And my final question - if it was spoofed into landing in such a nice and easy manner... why hide the bottom half of the UAV?

They say there is damage because of slight altitude difference between the drone's home base and the base they made it land on.

While still not fully convinced the manner to accomplish this task claimed by the Iranians is at least theoretically possible and has at least increased their credibility.


Regarding comparison between us and them - when you have the world ranged against you with sanctions and actions - your mind can wonderfully focussed. They have definitely shown a steely determination.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by manum »

Iranians are like Indians, one of most creative and super smart breed...They are equal genius in Math and Poetry as Indians...Don't underestimate them and they have money also...
Zoroastrians are of Iranian origin only, which we call Parsi's in India...

Though I still find they exaggerate things...
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Aditya_M »

I won't underestimate them, Surya and Manum - I have no doubt they have some incredibly smart people just like every other country does. But intelligence means little when you don't have the tech to learn from and to manufacture the latest stuff. That's all.

Manum, I know that Parsis are Iranian in origin, but that's all that there is to it. I don't believe that having common ancestors from centuries ago qualifies your intelligence in either a good or bad way - the Parsis for all intents and purposes are their own special culture now.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by manum »

This talk will go OT...
anyways I am just saying..the way Indian did respond in difficult times by mastering few things...Iranians can do too at crude level...Lets leave it at that, Though I agree they exaggerate..
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Luxtor »

Any thoughts on the American drone did crash in Iranian territory and was fully or partially destroyed, but enough structure survived for the Iranians to build a replica shell of the aircraft to display to the cameras? It did take them a few days to display it, enough time for them to build a replica. They may have had images of the drone beforehand from other sources that they could've used to determine the size, shape and visible features of the drone besides studying the wreckage. I find it hard to believe that the Iranians were able to take control of the drone so easily and land it at their base. In the Iranian video the underside of the drone being obscured is rather curious.

On the other hand, if the drone indeed land intact at the Iranian base, another possibility could be that it was accidentally landed their by the American controllers due to a multitude of malfunctions causing confusion on the Americans part. Sort of like the recent Indian Army helicopter incident across the line of control. These kinds of unintended landings of aircraft in enemy territory/base has happened through out history.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by arunsrinivasan »

From Livefist
India's SLYBIRD Mini-drone Payload Flights Soon
The National Aeronautics Lab (NAL) Slybird drone, first revealed earlier this year on Livefist is shortly to begin a second phase of trial flights with a videocamera/IR payload. Its first phase of launches was completed in July this year. The drone is part of the larger micro air vehicle effort funded by the Ministries of Defence and Science & Technology to meet multiple requirements of portable drones for tactical/over-the-hill reconnaisance/intelligence. NAL sources suggest that they intend to create a drone with capabilities comparable to the US Army's Raven. Will post a video of the Slybird in flight soon.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by James Blonde »

One Small coil of heater element from 15 watt soldering iron in a small 250 cc compartment of gas with a circuit board and logic with altimeter like device is good enough to self destruct
default logic can vaporize the whole thing and prevent falling into..

How wonderful it would be to fall into the arms of woman with out falling into her hands ....
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Kailash »

Heron drone proves a dud in tracking Maoists in Chattisgarh

Creativity of DDM never fails to amaze :D
But they are proving unsuccessful in tracking down Maoists since the infra- red rays emitted by the synthetic aperture radar operate with perfection in a clear landscape, but are unable to penetrate foliage in the jungle, an officer aware of the development, said.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Kailash »

US mulling sale of armed drones to allies
US is planning to sell its battle-proved armed drones to key allies, including India, but the move is being opposed by lawmakers who don’t want the technology to be exported.
It is believed that India would be one of the potential target countries for the US to sell its drones. India has been purchasing drones from Israel for quite some time now, and has been developing its drone capabilities, but does not have armed drones like the Predators and Reapers used by US security agencies with devastating effect against Al Qaeda and Taliban targets in Pakistan.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by abhischekcc »

There is a problem in selling drones to India. See, drones can carry bombs, which effectively makes them missiles. But they also have range of over 300 kms, which is banned under MTCR rules. IOW, India cannot buy drones because of MTCR restirctions :x .

We *might* see US do a 1-2-3 agreement for us in MTCR as well, :)
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by uddu »

When India is developing stuff, everyone will queue up to see us their products.
India developing UAV similar to American Predator drone
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 728979.cms
UAV Rustom-2 project is spread over 66 months, Director of Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), a Defence Research and Development Organisation ( DRDO) laboratory, P S Krishnan, told PTI here.
Rustom-2 would have a wing-span of 21-odd metres and an endurance of 24-hours-plus, as against seven-odd metres and 12-15 hours of Rustom-1, which has already completed five flights. ADE is the nodal lab for these projects.
Rustom-2 would have new payloads such as synthetic aperture radar, maritime patrol radar and collision avoidance system, among others, he said.
Meanwhile, Rustom-1, the Medium Altitude Long Endurance Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (MALE - UAV), would be integrated with payloads by next month, Krishnan said.
"We have demonstrated all the flying characteristics of the Rustom more or less in the final form".
:twisted:
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Singha »

the only cash rich markets for the US to exploit for amortizing its projects are
- saudi barbaria
- UAE
- South Korea
- Japan
- Singapore (too small)
- Australia
- India
- Turkey (one of the new BRICs)

israel is a munna and never pays anything its covered under their yearly aid. the Euros buy things in small nos. other than India, the others are all 101% halal Munna's ... India is truly a special case.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Kailash »

Thales and Aerovisión present FRONTEX with an unmanned aerial vehicle for border control
The UAV Fulmar is a small-size model (3.1 metres) weighing only 19 kilos that can fly at a height of 3,000 metres and achieve 150 kilometres per hour, with an 8-hour flight range that would allow it to fly up to 800 kilometres without having to refuel.
The demonstration confirmed the ease of installation and flying of the UAV Fulmar, as it does not require a runway for takeoff and landing given that it is launched from a catapult and is recovered by means of an impact-absorbing net. Both elements are simple to install in a short time and in different places.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by chackojoseph »

Kailash
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by Kailash »

DRDO lab tests UAVs
In a significant boost to Indian capabilities in using unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV), the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) — a laboratory under DRDO — conducted flight trials of micro and mini UAVs at Hoskote near Bangalore.

According a press release from the DRDO, three Micro Air Vehicles named Black Kite, Golden Hawk & Pushpak with sizes ranging from 300 to 450 mm with a maximum ‘all up’ weight of 300 gms to 500 gms have been flight demonstrated and these vehicles have an endurance of 30 minutes and carry a miniature daylight video camera as payload that relays the imagery of the gaming area to ground control during its flight. The video and telemetry range is about two kilometres.

These vehicles are designed and developed to meet requirements including countering low intensity conflicts, counter terrorism and for rescue operations during natural calamities. These small vehicles are capable of flying in full autonomous mode and transmitting live day and night video to the portable Ground Control Station (GCS) in real time. Two mini UAVs categorised under 2 Kg class vehicles with endurance of 1 hour were also demonstrated and these vehicles carry either a daylight camera or thermal/night vision camera (one at a time) as payload and thus have capability for both day and night surveillance.
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by koti »

A very long time ago, there was a report that Israel was looking to purchase Lakshya(?)
Any records of that available?
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Re: UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

Post by ashish raval »

One can easily strap bombs to netra uav and use it in counter insurgency operation.
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