Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

vic · Post by **vic** » 01 Feb 2012 09:49

The tech specifications of Rafale will make it better than current Su-30MKI also (untill MKI also gets AESA upgrade)

nash · Post by **nash** » 01 Feb 2012 10:02

TOT or JV regarding Kaveri++, GaN for AESA and Spectra or EW will be great for coming AMCA .. if DRDO/ADA/HAL able to absorb these technologies by 2016-17 then road for AMCA would be much easier than LCA.

PS: can we have different name for this thread .. current one is bit more exciting ...

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 01 Feb 2012 10:08

why does it take Dassault 3-4 years to supply 18 aircraft ? Cant they do it earlier ? Also when would the indian pilots start training on the rafales ?

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 01 Feb 2012 10:12

nash wrote: PS: can we have different name for this thread .. current one is bit more exciting ...

How about " The Chikni Chameli Thread "

Will · Post by **Will** » 01 Feb 2012 10:13

I think a lot of countries were awaiting the winner of our contest. This win is bound to fetch the rafale further orders. The frenchies should give us a further discount just on this account

srai · Post by **srai** » 01 Feb 2012 10:15

rajanb wrote:I hope there is ToT for active stealth. Imagine the AMCA with a stealth airframe and add active stealth to it.

Spectra EW will be one of the key tech in this deal. It is by far the most integrated EW system (if the adverts are to be believed). The tech learned from this should benefit all current and planned combat aircrafts: LCA, MKI, FGFA, and AMCA.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 01 Feb 2012 10:16

nachiket wrote:
ramana wrote:
The Rafale will eventually equip six squadrons of the IAF, each authorised 21 fighters. It is a delta-wing fighter with canards, which make it highly manoeuvrable and also allow it to land at speeds as low as 200 kmph. This makes it suitable for aircraft carrier operations, a key advantage over the Typhoon.

I thought the standard strength of IAF fighter squadrons was 18. Shukla could be mistaken. The deal also calls for 18 off the shelf deliveries, not 21. Would be natural to get the first whole squadron from the manufacturer instead of an arbitrary number. That would also mean 7 squadrons, not six.

it may not be wrong- the 3 additional fighters will be reserves with 18 frontline fighters that get rotated with the reserves.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 01 Feb 2012 10:17

I dont think the French will part with the active stealth silver

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 01 Feb 2012 10:18

I havent been there but somehting tells me that the inhabitants of the deaf and dumb forums will be now debating to death as to how lowly katrina will be before the the Tiffy. After all the Saudis have Tiffy so it must be best after all!

srai · Post by **srai** » 01 Feb 2012 10:21

Kartik wrote:
nachiket wrote:quote="ramana"

The Rafale will eventually equip six squadrons of the IAF, each authorised 21 fighters. It is a delta-wing fighter with canards, which make it highly manoeuvrable and also allow it to land at speeds as low as 200 kmph. This makes it suitable for aircraft carrier operations, a key advantage over the Typhoon.

/quote
I thought the standard strength of IAF fighter squadrons was 18. Shukla could be mistaken. The deal also calls for 18 off the shelf deliveries, not 21. Would be natural to get the first whole squadron from the manufacturer instead of an arbitrary number. That would also mean 7 squadrons, not six.

it may not be wrong- the 3 additional fighters will be reserves with 18 frontline fighters that get rotated with the reserves.

Older Russian fighters like the MiG-21s and 27s seem to have that 21 units ratio per sqdn. But it is less for newer fighters, which is closer to 18 units/sqdn.

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 01 Feb 2012 10:39

IN 10 years (or in the year 2025), the IAF's orbat will look like the following:

Retired:

~150 x MiG-21Bis/M/MF (7 squadrons)
~60 x MiG-27ML (3 squadrons)
~120 x MiG-21Bison (6 squadrons)
~40 x MiG-27UPG (2 squadrons)

Total (retired): 370 aircrafts (18 squadrons)

On the way out:

~50 x Mirage 2000UPG (3 squadrons)
~60 x MiG-29UPG (3 squadrons)
~100 x Jaguar UPG (5 squadrons)

Total (on last leg): 210 aircrafts (11 squadrons)

Core Strength:

~40 x LCA Mk.1 (2 squadrons)
~100 x LCA Mk.2 (5 squadrons)
~270 x Su-30MKI (15 squadrons)
~126 x MMRCA Rafale (7 squadrons)
~80 x MMRCA (4 squadrons)
~40 x PAK-FA/FGFA Mk.1 (2 squadrons)

Total (core): 656 aircrafts (35 squadrons)[/quote]

But even after phase out the ageing MIG fleet, IAF would use it for internal point defence role, as a reserve. China still have J-7 fleet as reserve in good no. Timely maintenance and periodic practice will require to retain them and we may depend on HAL for this. It will be a adhoc to place them in reserve rather to show in museum as play area.

nash · Post by **nash** » 01 Feb 2012 10:43

Gurneesh wrote: How about " The Chikni Chameli Thread "

It sound like a B-grade thread

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 01 Feb 2012 10:48

EADS would not complain about the EF losing out, since Airbus (owned by EADS) has bagged record orders from India in the past year.
Indigo ordered 150 & Go Air 72 * A320 NEO aircraft. At a base price of US$ 40Mil/ aircraft (after discounts), the combined deal is worth as much as the Rafale. Both airlines will have the aircraft delivered between 2015-2020. (this is in addition to the existing orders for the A320 classic, that both airlines have placed between now and 2015.

Adding the value of Airbus orders, it would probably mean that France becomes the biggest supplier to India, for defence & Aerospace, from now to 2020.

Both airlines have chosen Pratt & Whitney engines for the NEO (a significant part of the cost, which gets negotiated separately), so Unkil should also be happy.

For me, the best part of the deal is that GoI has started taking decisions again.

kit · Post by **kit** » 01 Feb 2012 10:49

Just like France gave vikas engine tech in late 80'S this deal most probably involves tech transfer for the super cruise engines AND AESA radar which you will never get from the americans , whatever F you are going to buy from them. Alls well that ends well.I would like an uprated TEjas mark 2 and the AMCA come up soon.Most importantly production technology and next generation capabilities,Going along with a country that feels free to stand up to the khans in matters of defense tech is indeed a good decision.The Israelis will definitely want to have a share of this pie in helping the Indians MKIsing the Rafale.

nash · Post by **nash** » 01 Feb 2012 10:50

Regarding another 80+ MMRCA if it is only for IAF then it should be JSF or Raffy or Tiffy or Mig-35(may be) and if IN also involve then it should be JSF or Raffy only.

But my intution is saying these 80+ will go to JSF only.

vina · Post by **vina** » 01 Feb 2012 10:52

Good. The Rafale is a great plane. The great thing about this Rafale select is that a critical portion of the IAF will be shielded from any Unkil and Unkil da Poodle (UK, Jurmanstan, EEtaly etc). Foggedabout "independent choice" rubbish from Gripen (US engine , FBW and host of other components

, independent indeed), this the REAL independent choice and the Frenchies have delivered for us in a crunch.

Another plus is that this keeps the Rafale away from the Cheenis. The Frenchies were pushing for lifting of Euro arms sanctions on China, but this will give them no incentive to do so. I do think that there will be clauses in the contract saying no sales of same thing to Pakiland and China.

And yeah, despite all protestations to the contrary, this WAS a packaged deal with the Snecma-Kaveri JV , they were waiting for this for that deal to be signed. Now they will have the required no of airframes (LCA MK-II, MLU of MK1 & MKII, later batches of Rafale, Rafale MLU and AMCA) to put in a big production run of that engine. Jai ho. That would be REALLY sweet and you can show the ungli to Unkil and his poodles forever.

All in all, very very sweet indeed.

To beat up the Eurofighter, this plane is nearly same size, has a lower empty weight, higher MTOW and longer range, and gives us an easy carrier option as well to get rid of the Mig 29K. All we need to do is put in cats in IACII and later.

It is uncanny how the brits and french ended up building very similar fighters and ended up killing each other in the market (just like any game theory /strategy biz case would suggest they do) and also Tejas and Gripen.. those two are really twins.

Going forward, I do pray, that the AMCA is a multi national deal with us roping in the Swedes , Brazilians , South Africans and the French in as well , pool all resources and strengths and build a truly great fighter with good assured market and satisfying the needs of all friendly countries and to rub chilli into Panda's backside, export those to Vietnam and a threat of sales to Taiwan as well.

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 01 Feb 2012 10:54

Well - very happy about the Raffy - Great looking bird got selected in the end and will also make IAF the meanest air force in this side of the globe.

Killer dominance fighter MKI and
Very good a great a2a fighter as well as the Dpsa fighter - good all around and some poetic justice done and French did deserve the contract.

mikehurst · Post by **mikehurst** » 01 Feb 2012 10:59

shiv wrote:

France's Dassault has placed the lowest bid to supply India with 126 fighter jets in a closely watched multi-billion dollar deal.
<snip>
However, government sources told Reuters about the $15 billion deal that France's Rafale jet was the likely winner, adding that the defence ministry was now considering buying another 80 or so jets and could invite bidders excluded from the current process to take part.

What will Indian Navy do nowuu nowwu
o my bovvu?[/quote]

Perhaps it's just a misunderstanding - the Indians thought they were putting their money into a raffle in order to win the typhoons.

[comment in telegraph forum]

nash · Post by **nash** » 01 Feb 2012 11:01

vina wrote: Going forward, I do pray, that the AMCA is a multi national deal with us roping in the Swedes , Brazilians , South Africans and the French in as well , pool all resources and strengths and build a truly great fighter with good assured market and satisfying the needs of all friendly countries and to rub chilli into Panda's backside, export those to Vietnam and a threat of sales to Taiwan as well.

Last para is really awesome ..

and i m completely agree with you

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 01 Feb 2012 11:08

suryag wrote:why does it take Dassault 3-4 years to supply 18 aircraft ? Cant they do it earlier ? Also when would the indian pilots start training on the rafales ?

The above is what is quoted by the press from sources "within". We will know the timeline when the contract is signed.

Some of our guys in the IAF have already flown the Rafale during evaluation trials. Both in India and in France. Six months training should do it.

And I would not be surprised if the twin seater trainers come in first.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Feb 2012 11:13

france can stand up to unkil because they have overall strength in all farming, tech and finance areas and do not need unkil protection, beekh or 'backing'. franco-german consensus is a heavy counterweight to anglo-american plans. italy is a unreliable guy who likes to run with both and sacrifice for neither

israel is dependent on american backing, arms aid and economic linkages so cannot stand up in that overt fashion. their strategy is to work like termites and shape the american decision making process in their favour

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Feb 2012 11:24

French are as chummy to US any any other NATO allay , even if openly they might say they are opposed to this or that , secretly they tend to co-operate , like they openly opposed Iraq war but were seceretly co-operation with US providing all information they had. With Sarkozy , French-US relation has never been better before

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 01 Feb 2012 11:25

vina wrote:Another plus is that this keeps the Rafale away from the Cheenis. The Frenchies were pushing for lifting of Euro arms sanctions on China, but this will give them no incentive to do so. I do think that there will be clauses in the contract saying no sales of same thing to Pakiland and China.

Ejjactly waat I thaat!

And yeah, despite all protestations to the contrary, this WAS a packaged deal with the Snecma-Kaveri JV , they were waiting for this for that deal to be signed. Now they will have the required no of airframes (LCA MK-II, MLU of MK1 & MKII, later batches of Rafale, Rafale MLU and AMCA) to put in a big production run of that engine. Jai ho. That would be REALLY sweet and you can show the ungli to Unkil and his poodles forever.

Ayyo waat sweet things you are saying Vinaji, bliss do continue.

Fidel Guevara · Post by **Fidel Guevara** » 01 Feb 2012 11:31

I wonder what this huge deal is doing to BRF page views? The stats must be going through the roof, especially with visitors from France.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 01 Feb 2012 11:36

Vina ji X posting from LCA thread quoting D.Subhananda Rao, GTRE director

Interesting parts on Kaveri by Dr.Subhananda Rao
Quote:
Kaveri engine, after successful completion of official Altitude Testing, was integrated with Il-76 aircraft at Gromov Flight research Institute (GFrI), russia and flew for 57 hrs at max altitude of 12 kms and 0.7 mach no. With this the performance of Kaveri engine in flight was
demonstrated.

After the analysis of this performance, the engine will be fine tuned and final version will be realised in the next one year. After certification for 100 hrs flying by cemIlAc, Kaveri engine will be flight tested on lcA.During Kaveri engine development programme, the design and analysis
expertise has been assimilated by GTre; critical sub-systems have been designed and qualified; 12 different materials have been developed and certified through midhani and Dmrl.

Kaveri has got spin off applications in development of marine version of gas turbine and can also be a candidate for future unmanned missions.

Regarding Kaveri snecma, the detailed discussions have been held; development plan, technologies, terms & conditions have been finalised. Negotiations are in final stage and are likely to be completed in the next 2-3 months. Afterwards papers will be moved for cabinet approval.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 01 Feb 2012 11:37

vina wrote:Good. The Rafale is a great plane. The great thing about this Rafale select is that a critical portion of the IAF will be shielded from any Unkil and Unkil da Poodle (UK, Jurmanstan, EEtaly etc). Foggedabout "independent choice" rubbish from Gripen (US engine , FBW and host of other components , independent indeed), this the REAL independent choice and the Frenchies have delivered for us in a crunch.

Buddy so called independence from the US is just an illusion, Raffy has critical US made tech on board in including radar components, targeting and safety systems. France too is a US poodle. Besides the Raffy will mostly be acquired with a US weapons pack for India. considering even the Former Air chief himself clarified that the US had the best combat radars, weapons and systems in the competition. This will allow us to buy higher volumes of weapons at lower costs and weapons that are often better.

Matter of fact US had to ship in tons of weapons to France in order to continue it's campaign in Libya, French supplies were running low since early on.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 01 Feb 2012 11:42

This was said back in March '11 (Link)

The offer stands," Edelstenne had declared, adding that the proposal to supply 40 Rafales was a "short term measure" keeping in mind delays that normally accompany all Indian defence contracts.

Wonder if we'll take them up on it now? 3-4 years to get the first squadron is ridiculous.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 01 Feb 2012 11:45

Besides if India can think of taking on China all by itself, well think again. Any war with a combo of Chi and/or Pak will need US clearance and ideally support. Firstly, having US on our side will allow US to hit the kill switches for us on the F-16s. Secondly taking on China is tough, we do not possess the extensive stocks and inventory needed to pound the Chinese into cease fire, however Unkil does and indo/unkil combo should certainly prevent war in the first place.

There is reason these days, we train the most with the US.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Feb 2012 11:45

the key point is 'components' not entire kit and kaboodle like say the radar or engine!
these components no doubt being service with the FrAF as well, Dassault and French Govt would have to ensure the supply without us having to directly deal with the US.

we will ofcourse have to deal with the US for the weapons if we go that route...though not sure yet how far we will go.

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 01 Feb 2012 11:47

Now that we have chosen Rafale, would it make sense to cancel M2K deal & replace them with additional Rafale?

A Nandy · Post by **A Nandy** » 01 Feb 2012 11:56

And to recall a picture in one of the posts here in BRF many moons ago, which made me fall in love with the Raffy !

knew then that we just had to get it, one of the beauties of french engineering.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Feb 2012 11:59

Now that we have chosen Rafale, would it make sense to cancel M2K deal & replace them with additional Rafale?

we would get only around 10-15 rafale for that price instead of 50 M2k. and the M2K can last a while longer so why throw away years of expertise, a good plane that will get better post-upg and a back end of 1000s of trained people and spares.

bahdada · Post by **bahdada** » 01 Feb 2012 12:02

Oh lordy. Any of you read the comment sections of those French dailies?

member_22635 · Post by **member_22635** » 01 Feb 2012 12:08

Septimus P. wrote:
vina wrote:Good. The Rafale is a great plane. The great thing about this Rafale select is that a critical portion of the IAF will be shielded from any Unkil and Unkil da Poodle (UK, Jurmanstan, EEtaly etc). Foggedabout "independent choice" rubbish from Gripen (US engine , FBW and host of other components , independent indeed), this the REAL independent choice and the Frenchies have delivered for us in a crunch.
Buddy so called independence from the US is just an illusion, Raffy has critical US made tech on board in including radar components, targeting and safety systems. France too is a US poodle. Besides the Raffy will mostly be acquired with a US weapons pack for India. considering even the Former Air chief himself clarified that the US had the best combat radars, weapons and systems in the competition. This will allow us to buy higher volumes of weapons at lower costs and weapons that are often better.

Matter of fact US had to ship in tons of weapons to France in order to continue it's campaign in Libya, French supplies were running low since early on.

While the first tests were made with US-made transmitter/receivers, the current radar will feature parts manufactured by Thales. (Wiki). So there is US dependence but to what extend?

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 01 Feb 2012 12:14

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/iaf- ... 71460.html

Once the IAF decided that it wanted the best fighter, not necessarily the most economical, it was clear that choice would be between Eurofighter Typhoon and Rafale

The issue of life cycle costs will not go away even now. When the Rafale comes in, it will be in addition to an existing fleet of Su-30MKIs, MiG-29s, Mirage 2000s, Jaguars and other aircraft. Over the years, the IAF has realised the high price they have had to pay for this multiplicity of types.

Three countries have considered acquiring the Rafale, come close to it, and then backed out - Brazil, UAE and Switzerland. The parsimonious Swiss decided that the Rafale was too expensive and are looking for a cheaper alternative.

As for the UAE, last November, Sheikh Mohammed, deputy of the UAE's armed forces, said that the Dassault offer was "uncompetitive and unworkable [in] commercial terms". The UAE was angered by the French demands of Euro 2 billion to develop the fighter.

Now, the French have the rich Indians to do what the poor Arabs and the Swiss could not afford.

Indeed, with the Rafale joining squadron service, the air force will be top- heavy because there will not be enough light fighters which can carry out combat air patrols on the cheap. The air force is making its bed, but it is the taxpayer of the country that has to sleep on it.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 01 Feb 2012 12:17

bahdada wrote:Oh lordy. Any of you read the comment sections of those French dailies?

Links please!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Feb 2012 12:17

thales has a US subsidiary too I think which manufactures the gear that thales sells to khan armed forces. this subsidiary would likely source any US vendor parts they need for other projects. anyways being component level, everyone has a finger in the pie including perhaps the PRC and TSP as well (for the plastic parts and green paint).

french comments translated via google chrome in Le Monde generally appear supportive with the only lament being only 18 doing full assembly in france so that segment of jobs (final assembly & test line) is not supported.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 01 Feb 2012 12:19

Dassault Rafale is the Indian Air force MMRCA contract lowest bidder

Some amends and additions to the initial article. One thing I am being told is the 43 k was allotted in 2007. Now, next fiscal it should be amended. Hence the contract will be signed as per that.

Added later...

I had asked how the 2006 tender can be valid with double the price? If you folks remember that Lockheed was saying the same thing. The answer is above. They will simply make another provision.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 01 Feb 2012 12:27

sudeepj wrote:Three countries have considered acquiring the Rafale, come close to it, and then backed out - Brazil, UAE and Switzerland. The parsimonious Swiss decided that the Rafale was too expensive and are looking for a cheaper alternative.

The size of the order and the price offered by France for each of these countries would have been different. So no use comparing them.

Even if we have paying a higher value, which I doubt, our cost comparison would only be against the Eurofighter (not against the other contender in Brazilian/Arab/Swiss tenders)

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 01 Feb 2012 12:27

One questions troubles me -

Are they offering Rafale with some features as options, like SPECTRA, to reduce to overall price of aircraft which we will buy again later on?

In the past as well India has bought equipment with less feature in first deal then later on signing another deal with more options (after lot of roona dhoona as usual), i.e. T-90, two contracts for Mirage upgrade etc, to show that overall price of the unit was less.