Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

[JTull]

US: F-16, F-18 are combat proven and better
US: F-35 is available if India wants it
UK: Typhoon whine, will do everything to reverse the decision
Germany: Regret India's decision but all is not over

Actually, I don't mind this interference from US, UK, etc. This will keep Dassault and France on their toes and get us a good deal in shortest possible time. The French presidential elections are in April and Sarkozy will not want any hiccups before that. Even if the final contract is placed later, I expect them to keep eye on the ball as this kind of opportunity won't be presented again.

Perhaps, just to be sure, RM should come out and state that we'll keep all options open if the negotiations don't take place accourding to our liking.

[Badar]

That said, we need to ramp up production of our own sudharshan, an order of more than 100 000 Sudharshan is a must in case must take on both China and Pak.

LolL - Out GD'd GD!

[koti]

F-16, F-18s would have provided India unbeatable platforms: US

Unbeatable by what? Paki Blk 50's??
I think LM should offer F16 to UK,Luftwaffe as they plans to reduce their orders for EF.

[nash]

F-16, F-18s would have provided India unbeatable platforms: US

If F-35 is not available then it will be better to go for Rafale only for next possible 80 MMRCA ..and for weapon we should concentrate more on Desi package like astra,sudharshan,nirbhay,Nag(Air-version),etc

[Philip]

JT,the F-35 is not even available for US pilots to even train upon at the moment as the manufacturer is scared stiff that any accident will devastate the programme.The USA is getting it first sqd. only in 2019,some even say 2020 wil be the earliest as dev. tehcnical problems have yet to be sorted out and final prices are unkown.Pl. read the mountian of info vailable in AWST and other aviation mags and media reports.Is it not also true,mentioned by the manufacturers themselves that in air-to-air combat it is no better than an F-16 of '70s vintage and its max speed is M1.6 in the belief that its stealth capability alone would suffice?

That the F-16 and F-18SH are better than the two Eurobirds is highly questionable and casts serious aspersions upon the intense and comprehensive evaluation by the IAF in Indian conditions and the integrity of the service. The two technically best aircraft were chosen for the finals and the whining from the Anglo-Saxons only belittles themselves and incurs considerable loss of face!

PS:Even if the JS F or even the F-22 were available to us,when we have signed on in a JV with Russia,where we will be "partners" in the project,why should we buy either US bird in a vendor style agreement?

[nash]

Let's do some weapon package costs (specific to Rafale):

• 500 x MICA @€1 billion (additional to the 490 ordered for M2K-5 upgrade)
• 500 x Meteor @€1 billion
• 500 x 250kg AASM @€175 million (@€350,000 a piece)
• 200 x Scalp ALCM @€160 million (@€800,000 a piece)
• 100 x Exocet AShM @€100 million

Total (costs): ~€2.5 billion

I would like to double the no. of scalp and Exocet ... then after that buy some unkill(JDAM,HARM) and desi weapon...

[member_20453]

you do realize, UK alone used over 1000 PGMs in Libya and France used more to achieve basic clean up. China and Pak are far fierce enemies, using unguided bombs poses heavy risks to our fighters since, they have to get closer to the target to release their weapons thus having to face enemy resistance. Tis better to have a large inventory, sudharshan is our own so no problem having a large inventory. We'll need over 10000 pgms just to clean Chinese presense in Tibet, the rest of country is a whole different story.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15528984

http://www.laserweekly.com/nato-running ... -in-libya/

The article has a good idea of prices. Unkil's toys are far cheaper.

100000 is a safe number for an active + reserve LGB inventory, some day we'll have around a 1000 fighters what good are they if each one can't deliver atleast a 100 LGB to the enemy?

[shukla]

Former air chiefs hail 'free and fair' selection of the rafale
India Today

[pankajs]

David Cameron pays price in India for poor links with Gandhi dynasty (Al-Guardian)

[rajanb]

Immediately after the down select, a statement doing the rounds was "That all the contending a/c are superb" (or words to that effect) were being bandied about. That reeked of diplomatese, like fried chicken being served in its greasy oil.

Alas some manufacturers have taken it at face value and hence these statements continue :

F-16, F-18s would have provided India unbeatable platforms: US

While faith in one's products is to be lauded, it should not cross the limits of reality.

[Singha]

F-16 and F-18 are unbeatable only when flown by the usaf within their system of systems with umpteen force multipliers in the loop like all-court AWACS, JSTARs details on ground targets, the best threat libraries, Growlers, the best offensive jammers, 100s of SLCMs preceding their attack etc.

in other hands they are good but not unbeatable.

[JohnTitor]

David Cameron pays price in India for poor links with Gandhi dynasty (Al-Guardian)

OT but if this is truely Cameron's (and the tories') thinking, its bad news for India. INC has been bad news for India from the start, further (external) support will exacerbate problems.

[Sharma]

Sore Neighbours

[Lalmohan]

David Cameron pays price in India for poor links with Gandhi dynasty (Al-Guardian)

OT but if this is truely Cameron's (and the tories') thinking, its bad news for India. INC has been bad news for India from the start, further (external) support will exacerbate problems.

the article doesn't hang together very well, plus the guardian is traditionally anti-Tory. its basically saying that cameron failed to play the backdoor channel card implying that both gandhis and cameron are corrupt and inept. the selection process is largely ignored. the point of the article is to ridicule cameron

[member_22626]

Forget me not !!

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/f-16- ... home-india

[rajanb]

F-16 and F-18 are unbeatable only when flown by the usaf within their system of systems with umpteen force multipliers in the loop like all-court AWACS, JSTARs details on ground targets, the best threat libraries, Growlers, the best offensive jammers, 100s of SLCMs preceding their attack etc.

in other hands they are good but not unbeatable.

Thanks Singha. I stand corrected in the notion that they were givng us the full monty. Duh!

So a Yanqui salesman comes to me and speaking to me in his best Yanqui drawl say:

"Here is a choice of unbeatable platforms. it can do this and this.......etc."

And I get to know he is not offering me the state of the art which he has, but a downgraded exported version, because he has to protect himself in case I decide to bite him or block his nowadays futile march to protect "his world wide interests" with his own equipment.

So I think to myself. Why not take this opportunity to see, feel and assess his "unbeatable platform" offerings. At least I get to know what he sells to children of a lesser god, whom I may have to fight. That too at his cost and effort.

And then smile and tell him: "Ta ta and thanks a lot but you didn't make the cut. And oh, by the way, don't feel bad, all is not lost. Many opportunities will come by for you to win. We'll get together for a beer sometime."

Wow. I would give the yanquis a ZERO for salesmanship.

I mean they expected us to swallow our pride and sacrifice our need to buy the best on offer. Full monty capable version.

Is it a result of their atitude that we are == with Porkistunis?

PS. I have a lot of Yanqui friends whom I respect and love their company. (In case people think I don't like Yanquis) But their Govt. policies and attitudes suck in an increasingly competitive world. I have sold Yanqui high end, cutting edge products all my life. in S. Asia (barring Porkistun) with a passion for the product and success, but thank heavens, had never had to sell a downgraded version.

[koti]

Sore Neighbours

The article is quite concise and neutral. I did not see any thing sore there.
Try Guardian or Daily mail... Your perception of sore losers changes!!!

[Singha]

my point was even if Khan offers us the 100% halal domestic version of their F-18/F-16 with the best weapons, sensors and threat libraries they still would not be half as effective within our austere system as within the khan system.

just compare the number of awacs, tankers, standoff jammers, ELINT birds, jstars, global hawks, SLCMs, B-52, B-1 that launch a meelee attack whenever khan kicks ass. its hard to take any system in isolation from this matrix and say it works great or somewhat great. what is undoubted is the overall mob works great and any deficiencies are seldom exposed vs the kind of foes the khan kicks around.

1:1 without any external 'gang' for backing, the rafale and EF with their projected sensors and weapons for MRCA should put it across the f-16/f-18 final export versions without much difficulty. we have already read about how the F-18 had a tough time in Leh and failed the test for short takeoff with a certain fuel fraction. all the 3 e-canards passed that handily it seems.

even the redoubtable F-15SG/F-15K stands very little chance in WVR vs any e-canard and has to carefully 'manage' its engagement to keep it bvr and high speed if it wants to play.

[Lalmohan]

unkil peepal are brought up to believe that they are the best at everything, so they are genuinely shocked if there is any contrary claim. mostly the euros manage to keep up with weapons hardware, which surprises unkil. they forget that the typhoon and rafale came half gen after teen series, so naturally would have some advantages. just as f22/f35 have theoretical advances over the eurobirds

[Badar]

rajanb, Singha is saying something very different and important. The US could sell us the latest, greatest, full capability and full quality aircraft the USAF enjoys and we will still not be able to get the same performance out of them as they do.

This is because the US invests untold billions in supplementary and complementary systems as Singha mentioned - electronic support equipment, space based assets, AAR, exemplary technical and field intelligence, an unrivaled command control and surveillance net plus well integrated and cooperative supporting arms. In practice these matter a lot more than RCS or reach of missile of a particular aircraft. You could replace the complete USAF F-22/F-15/F-16 with MKI or Gripen and see no net difference in the USAF tactical mission performance ability or loss rates.

Another reason that the US systems perform so well is that US wars are usually wars of choice against isolated enemies weakened by years of sanctions and embargoes. They tend to have the initiative of the attackers, time to buildup, workup and concentrate strength and employ forces that are superior to the enemy both in quality and quantity. None of these factors are likely to be true for a nation like India. Or for that matter Pakistan. If the push comes to shove, those 'unbeatable' PAF F-16s will look very mortal, potent though they are.

Finally, the proper measure of an aircraft is not how inferior the export F-16 is to the USAF version or the IAF Rafale to the ADA one, but how does the export Falcon compare with the export Rafale - viz, whats the best of what we can have?

[rsingh]

Wah wah.......................English Tabloids made my day. There it is ...........raw badmouthing,fuming and mumbling of average whitepaki. How IAF dared............how on earth..........this humiliation vis a vis French....la whole wila quwat.
Secondly the news of NATO report about Paki-Talibani bhai chara is all over in non English press. These people just woke up it seems. Guess who is Bkistani thekedar in Europe......

[arthuro]

The Real Reasons for Rafale’s Indian Victory
Defense Aerospace, Feb 1


PARIS --- While many observers cite technology transfer, prices and performance as being major factors in India’s selection of the Rafale as its next-generation fighter, reality is very different even if these factors obviously did play a significant role.

In the same way that it is true that Rafale lost several competitions through no fault of its own, it must be recognized that its victory in India was also won, to a great extent, through no fault of its own. The real reason for its victory is political, and the long memory of Indian politicians was a major contributing factor.

This is not to say, however, that Rafale’s own impressive qualities had nothing to do with its selection. The Indian Air Force, which was extensively briefed by the French air force in the autumn, was particularly impressed by its operational performance during the Libyan bombing campaign and in Afghanistan. Rafale also has a naval variant which could be of future interest to India, given its plans to buy and build aircraft carriers, while the recent decision to upgrade India’s Mirage 2000H fighters will simplify the air force’s logistics chain, as these will share with Rafale many weapons and other equipment.

The Indian Air Force also is a satisfied user of long standing of French fighters, going back to the Dassault Ouragan in the 1950s. It was also particularly appreciative of the performance of its Mirages during the 1999 Kargil campaign against Pakistan, and of the support it then obtained from France. During that campaign, India obtained French clearance – and possibly more - to urgently adapt Israeli and Russian-supplied laser-guided bombs to the Mirages, which thus able to successfully engage high-altitude targets that Indian MiG-23s and MiG-27s had been unable to reach.

Rafale was preferred because of lower costs, and the Indian air force's familiarity with French warplanes such as the Mirage, Bloomberg reported Feb. 1 quoting an Indian source who asked not be named. "Unit-wise, the French plane is much cheaper than the Eurofighter. Moreover, the Indian air force, which is well equipped with French fighters, is favouring the French," the source said.

To Indian officials, France’s steadfastness as a military ally contrasted strongly with that of the United States, which stopped F-16 deliveries to Pakistan (but kept the money) when it found it expedient to do so, and slowed or vetoed delivery of components for Light Combat Aircraft that India was developing. And, of course, the 1998 arms embargo, decreed by the US after India’s nuclear test in May of that year, left a very bad taste in Indian mouths. France, on the contrary, was the only Western nation not to impose sanctions.

That, Indian sources say, was New Delhi’s real reason for eliminating Boeing and Lockheed Martin from the fighter competition; India has resolved, these sources say, to buy only second-line equipment from the U.S., such as transport (C-17, C-130J) or maritime patrol aircraft (P-8I). Vital weapons such as missiles and fighters, when they cannot be locally produced, will remain the preserve of France and Russia.

Political considerations were also a significant factor playing against Rafale’s final competitor, the Eurofighter Typhoon. As this aircraft is produced by a consortium of four nations, each with different foreign policies and different attitudes and tolerances to arms exports, Indian officials were a bit nervous about their ultimate reliability as a single supplier.

Germany is a long-standing Indian aviation partner, and a respected role model for Indian politicians, many of whom were educated there. German companies – essentially the former Messerschmitt-Boelkow-Blohm, now part of EADS - helped Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. develop both the LCA and the Advanced Light Helicopter, now called Dhruv. These links were the reason the Eurofighter bid was led by Germany’s Cassidian, and not BAE Systems, the former colonial power. But Germany had dithered over technology transfer for LCA, soft-pedaled on ALH tech transfer when German pacifists raised their eyebrows, and coughed when India almost went to war with Pakistan over Kargil and Kashmir, so in the final analysis it could not be considered a reliable supplier of major weapons.

Italy has never sold a major weapon to India, and so could bring neither influence nor reputation to support Eurofighter, while the third partner, Spain, is totally absent from the Indian military landscape.

This left BAE Systems as the best-known Eurofighter partner in India, and so by default as its ultimate public face. BAE in 2003 sold £1.5 billion’s worth of Hawk jet trainers to India, with a follow-on, £500 million order in 2010. However, its previous major sale to India was the Jaguar light attack aircraft in the 1970s. In fact, this aircraft was jointly developed by Britain and France on a 50/50 basis, and while it was license-produced by HAL it was never really successful as a fighter. Furthermore, France could claim as much benefit from its Indian career as BAE.

Taken together, the Eurofighter partner nations posed an even thornier problem: in case of war, German law prohibits deliveries of weapons and spares, Italian law and public opinions would demand an embargo, which Spanish legislation is murky. What would happen, Indian politicians must have wondered, if after buying the Eurofighter they went to war? Would spares and weapons be forthcoming, or would they be embargoed? The political risk was obviously too big to take.

Weapons also played a significant role in persuading India to opt for Rafale: not only is its weapons range mostly French-made, and thus not subject to a third-party embargo, but so are all of its sensors. Eurofighter, whose air-to-air missiles include the US-made AIM-120 Amraam and the German-led IRIS-T, and whose primary air-to-ground weapon is the US-made Paveway, was obviously at a competitive disadvantage in this respect.

Furthermore, the Rafale is nuclear-capable and will replace the Mirage 2000N in French service as the carrier of the newly-upgraded ASMP/A nuclear stand-off missile; it is also capable of firing the AM-39 Exocet missile, giving it an anti-ship capability that its competitors do not have. India is also interested in fitting its BrahMos supersonic missile to a wide range of its combat aircraft, and Rafale could apparently carry it.

Given that India had sworn to buy the cheapest compliant competitor, it would have been unable to justify picking the Rafale had this not been offered at the lower price. While official figures have not been released, and indeed may never be, initial reports from New Delhi claim that Rafale was offered at a unit price of $4-$5 million less than Eurofighter, which is a surprisingly large advantage given the French aircraft’s reputation of being high-priced.
[...]

[arthuro]

Price Frozen, Dassault Expects to Freeze Indian MMRCA Rafale Architecture Next
DefenseWorld, feb 2


Dassault Aviation is preparing to hold discussions with the Indian MOD's contract negotiations committee (CNC) in the coming weeks to freeze the Rafale aircraft architecture as the next step in its quest to sign the estimated $12 billion contract.

A source from Dassault told Defenseworld.net that teams from Das[s]ault and the CNC will decide on the aircraft's final architecture following which the terms of the transfer of technology(ToT) will be decided. "A third important step, that of deciding on offsets will have to be concluded before signing on the dotted line", said the source who did not wish to be named as he was not authorized to speak to the media.

"If these three steps are fulfiled, then we can look forward to signing the contract early next year", he said adding that performance of the contract is likely to begin towards the end of 2013.

Freezing the aircraft architecture is the next crucial step as it involves taking decisions on all the systems and sub-systems which will go into the aircraft and which vendor will provide what. "It means taking a call on the configuration in which the Indian Air Force wants the aircraft".

Asked whether there would be scope for a change in price if the aircraft architecture was fine-tuned, the source said that the basic price was frozen and pricing of various systems will have to be within the purview of the financial bids submitted during the evaluation process where the Rafale was declared the lowest bidder.

Regarding offsets agreement, he said that Dassault plans to "revisit" the Indian industry as the earlier offsets proposal had been submitted in 2007. "Once we are through with the aircraft architecture and the terms of the ToT we will be better placed to select our offsets partners", he said.

[rajanb]

^^^ Sounds like Dassault is being very professional and logical about the whole deal.

[arthuro]

So expected signature would be early 2013 if everything goes well...with the beginning of the realization of the contract late 2013.

[rajanb]

rajanb, Singha is saying something very different and important. The US could sell us the latest, greatest, full capability and full quality aircraft the USAF enjoys and we will still not be able to get the same performance out of them as they do.

This is because the US invests untold billions in supplementary and complementary systems as Singha mentioned - electronic support equipment, space based assets, AAR, exemplary technical and field intelligence, an unrivaled command control and surveillance net plus well integrated and cooperative supporting arms. In practice these matter a lot more than RCS or reach of missile of a particular aircraft. You could replace the complete USAF F-22/F-15/F-16 with MKI or Gripen and see no net difference in the USAF tactical mission performance ability or loss rates.

<snip>

Finally, the proper measure of an aircraft is not how inferior the export F-16 is to the USAF version or the IAF Rafale to the ADA one, but how does the export Falcon compare with the export Rafale - viz, whats the best of what we can have?

Thanks Badar. I did understand that part. But I did not want to spoil my narrative by saying that frontline defense equipment from the US of A is best suited for its immediate coterie.Whom they can support with all the background gizmos. Or will they? In times of crisis?

I was trying to explain it as a simple Sqn. Ldr. asked to evaluate the a/c. Who jolly well wants something which gives him and his comrade in arms the best, technically. And a better chance of returning to his family.

And buying something which is designed/manufactured by the same coterie is also fraught with danger in times of our crisis.(sanctions/export bans etc.)

What is sauce for the goose (F16/F18IN) is sauce for the gander (JSF). No?

[rajanb]

So expected signature would be early 2013 if everything goes well...with the beginning of the realization of the contract late 2013.

I think they mean everything will be sorted out in spite of hiccups in between. if all goes well, it will be quicker

[uddu]

Kaveri engine for Rafale, Tejas and Mig-29's.

[ramana]

I think the US just put itself out of the follow-on order from India for 80 planes.
So no need to khatir dari them.

[sohels]

Art of deal-making - Bharat Karnad

A senior official of an US aerospace major castigate(d) both the US government for imposing a ceiling on the level of technologies that could be sold to India, and the Indian government for quietly accepting these limits instead of forcefully using the “leverage” India has to insist, demand, and otherwise extract more advanced technology than American companies are presently permitted to sell. He further averred that India did not quite appreciate the leverage it has, leave alone use it effectively.

a far better way to reap technology benefits is to do so indirectly, by mining the American military’s incomparable operational experience with advanced systems and its high-tech savvy. In fact, the US armed services’ eagerness to render this sort of assistance is reflected in a pioneering venture involving the naval variant of the Tejas. The Indian Navy had reportedly considered consulting with EADS and Dassault in areas such as determining the location of the arrester hook-landing system, ways to test this system, “aerodynamic fixes” to improve carrier takeoff and landing, optimising landing gear design to handle larger operating weight, integrating operational payload, reduction of aircraft weight, selecting an alternative engine for a better power-to-weight ratio, etc. The US Navy, which has the most extensive carrier aviation experience, was finally but hesitantly approached for practical advice.

The Indian Navy’s gambit paid off. Its Letter of Request, while occasioning a short but intense debate in the Office of the US Chief of Naval Operations, elicited a positive response. A Letter of Agreement and consultancy contract soon followed, and veteran US naval aviators, deputed for the job, began working seamlessly on the Light Combat Aircraft many months back. The reason for the success of this scheme, according to a Pentagon officer, was that all relevant decisions on the Indian side — from initial contact, drafting the consultancy contract, to payments and arrangements for hosting the American naval aviators — emanated from a single source, the officer heading the programme, Commodore C.D. Balaji, with the redtape-inclined defence ministry having no role.

Also, Brazilian Defense Minister Travels to India to Strengthen Bilateral Cooperation in Defense Industry

The Indians maintain strong cooperation in defense matters with countries like France and Russia, but, like Brazil, are seeking to reduce their dependence on other nations by development of high-technology products and services for military use. The Asian country has projects underway to manufacture tanks, missiles and combat aircraft.

India has just completed a tender for procurement of 126 fighters for its air force, won by Dassault, the French manufacturer of the Rafale aircraft. Experts say the agreement provides for the direct purchase of 18 aircraft. The remaining 108 will be locally built with a transfer of technology.

[rajanb]

I think the US just put itself out of the follow-on order from India for 80 planes.
So no need to khatir dari them.

And the way the Brits are going, they are themselves killing a good product.

[uddu]

One of the sources said France's Rafale jet was the likely winner, adding that the defense ministry was now considering buying another 80 or so jets and could invite bidders excluded from the current process to take part.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/ ... A820120131

What is this supposed to mean ..?

Another aircraft? No way. There is no need to appease anyone. And no more deals and imports. This must be the last fighter that we purchase. Everything from now on must be Indian.

[Fidel Guevara]

1:1 without any external 'gang' for backing, the rafale and EF with their projected sensors and weapons for MRCA should put it across the f-16/f-18 final export versions without much difficulty. we have already read about how the F-18 had a tough time in Leh and failed the test for short takeoff with a certain fuel fraction. all the 3 e-canards passed that handily it seems.

Agree that the Euro-canards are 0.5 gen ahead of the latest block F-teens, and IAF doesn't have the strike package "ecosystem" of the USAF. However, it's not just a question of sheer quality, cost and quantity needs to be a factor as well, given that IAF has to protect and be able to attack across a vast theatre of operations.

What if the F18 + all weapon packages were to be offered at, say, half the cost of the e-canards, and the IAF could have afforded twice as many planes (each "almost" as capable as the Rafale)? Would you rather that a intruder Paki or PLA was engaged by one Rafale or two F18s? That is for defensive operations; in offensive operations, 2 F18s can clearly carry far more ordnance than a single Rafale.

I would suggest not shutting the door on any option until the Rafale deal is negotiated, signed, validated, ratified, by both nations.

JMTC

[Fidel Guevara]

Another aircraft? No way. There is no need to appease anyone. And no more deals and imports. This must be the last fighter that we purchase. Everything from now on must be Indian.

You mean after the FGFA, right?

Anyway, by the time Rafale starts to get obsolete, we are already in the 2030's; and I sure hope that we will be self-sufficient by then.

[rajanb]

^^^ Fidel I agree we should keep an open mind. But two points here:

a) They did not perform well enough in the tech evaluations where price was not a consideration.

b) While we should not shut doors the US can shut a door on us by use of sanctions? So of what use the price we pay for the F-teens. The other price we would pay is immeasureable.

[Fidel Guevara]

^^^ Fidel I agree we should keep an open mind. But two points here:

a) They did not perform well enough in the tech evaluations where price was not a consideration.

b) While we should not shut doors the US can shut a door on us by use of sanctions? So of what use the price we pay for the F-teens. The other price we would pay is immeasureable.

Great points, thanks.

(1) In the tech evaluations, the Rafale was clearly superior, fully agree. My point was about the TCO per plane, along with all weapons, which will anyway be American to a great extent.

(2) As for the feared "sanctions", these are effective when applied over years. If we get critical ToT, a good number of spares, and enough weapons for a hot war, short-term sanctions won't hurt. Recall the only major long-term sanction done by the US was against Iran, and even then the Iranians kept their F14s flying for several years. No way the US is going to impose a long-term and broad-based sanction on India, not with the level of interconnection between our economies. Maybe a 2 week sanction for political reasons, during the time it takes the IAF to wipe out the PAF.

If we are in a position where the US imposes long-term military sanctions on India, then the sh!t has truly hit the geostrategic fan, and we have much more major problems to deal with, i.e. an upcoming war with the US. If that is the case, whether we have 126 Rafale or 126 Eurofighter or 126 F18...we are anyway looking at 126 minutes life expectancy for the entire IAF fleet.

[Sanku]

If we are in a position where the US imposes long-term military sanctions on India, then the sh!t has truly hit the geostrategic fan, and we have much more major problems to deal with, i.e. an upcoming war with the US. If that is the case, whether we have 126 Rafale or 126 Eurofighter or 126 F18...we are anyway looking at 126 minutes life expectancy for the entire IAF fleet.

Errmmm. India has been under Mil sanctions from US many a times in the past. Including hostile military posturing (short of full war, but at least Americans flying sorties against Indians and training Pakis etc)

Its not a big deal for us you know (unless we are saddled with their junk) we have seen it before and endured. We will see it again and endure.

[ramana]

When the issue if the French plane why bring in mythical US overtures or lack ther of ot this thread?

[negi]

Have to give to the GoI, DM Anthony in particular for shafting the 'Chacha' and it's Munna#1 . A nice beginning to the new year.

[Philip]

Art of deal-making......Real reasons for US angst at being dumped.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/columnis ... eal-making

Bharat Karnad,well known strategic affairs analyst in this article in the Deccan Chronicle,has articulated perhaps for the first time,why the US was so p*ssed off at being dumped in the MMRCA stakes.The ditching of the two US birds still "rankles" and the US strategic community is "perplexed" that such an important deal has been made on technical grounds instead of "political".They felt "specially aggrieved because ,or so it was hinted,the Manmohan Singh govt, had assured Washington that an American plane would be chosen"!.furthermore,the Obama administration was "poised to cash in on the deal as so many powerful US legislators,including Mr.Chabot of Ohio,had hoped to benefit in their constituencies from huge orders for engines,etc.

Some time ago I was criticised for suggesting that this is exactly what the good doctor had promised the US in exchange for the N-deal,buying large amounts of US militaryware.For doubters,we now have it from US sources itself.

Karnad further elaborates as to how ignorant some US politicos are as we already are buying engines for the LCA (and soon for the Jaguar upgrade-from Raytheon),marine gas turbines for frigates,etc.he says that "what matters to US lawmakers" is not so much the common geo-political strategic interests,bringing both nations together,but the "reality of the commercial deals that generate jobs,benefit their constituencies,and help them get re-elected"!

BK further goes on to wonder US reluctance to part with sensitive tech info like source codes etc.,could've been moderated by "cultivating important US senators and Congressmen and orchestrating sufficient pressure from Capitol Hill".One senior aerospace major official,speaking to him on the sidelines,suggested as much.He castigated both the US govt. for imposing such a stringent "ceiling on the level of technologies that could be sold to India" and the GOI for quietly "accepting those limits",not appreciating its "leverage" it has,leave alone use it effectively.Riled by the Europeans not having such restraints,he said that US aerospace companies would willingly sell India the same,but the "trick lay in Delhi mounting sustained govt-to-govt pressure upon Washington with the Indian embassy channeling to important US legislators" election campaign funds generated from wealthy NRIs and NRI associates in the US"!

Despite this advice,BK says that India has " little chance realistically" of getting cutting-edge tech when the US even denies the same to its NATO allies.He suggests that a far better way is interacting directly with US armed services' eagerness to "render assistance",quoting how an IN officer on his own approached the USN's CNO with a LOR (letter of request) for providing it with tech. expertise in carrier landing and take-off undercarriage design for the Tejas,which recd. a positive response and a LOA (letter of agreement).The reason for this according to a Pentagon source was that all queries,etc. emanated from a single source,the officer involved,Cmde.CD Balaji,with the red-tape MOD having "no role".Given this success,BK suggests that similar attempts at leveraging US armed forces' operational expertise and practical knowledge is an excellent way to achieve results,and the the IA and IAF should emulate this example,"create a stake in,and take charge of projects that will produce in-country worthwhile military hardware".

So now we have it why the US is still livid at being shafted.This beggars the Q,was David Cameron,equally livid with India, also given similar assurances by the good mendicant of snake oil?