Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

[saptarishi]

India buys fighter plane others reject - Vancouver Sun

[...]
Indian officials insist the choice of the Rafale was made entirely on cost considerations after a run-off comparison with the Typhoon Eurofighter. The Indian media have quoted official sources as saying the Rafale came in at $5 million cheaper per plane than the Typhoon.
Early last year, proposals from America's Boeing with the F-18 Hornet, and Lockheed Martin's F-16 Falcon, the Russian manufacturers of the MiG-35, and the Gripen from Sweden's Saab were dropped from the competition when they failed to meet the operational requirements of the Indian Air Force.The outline scheme is that Dassault will supply 18 complete Rafale jets to India starting in mid-2015 and that the remaining 108 fighters will be manufactured in India over six years by Hindustan Aeronautics, which will receive a substantial technology transfer from the French company.There is also the prospect that India could build at least another 60 Rafales, taking the total cost of the project to about $20 billion.
In the companies making up the Eurofighter consortium there was much confidence their offer had winning attractions.
Apart from the overall benefit to India of forging industrial and diplomatic bonds with four major European countries (Ger-many, Italy, Spain, the United Kingdom), the Typhoon package envisaged creating 20,000 jobs in India. It also envisaged India becoming a full partner in the continuing Eurofighter project, including future models of the warplane and shares in export revenues.
There is suspicion in non-French European media that Sarkozy, who is facing defeat in the coming presidential election and for whom a large industrial contract could provide a boost, has worked hard to sweeten the deal for Dassault.
Sarkozy's vocal support for the Indian government's cherished aim to get a permanent seat on the United Nations Security Council has been pointed to, as well as his support for India to gain unrestricted access to nuclear technology.
Indian Defence Minister Arackaparambil Kurian Antony has repeatedly insisted that there were "no political considerations" in picking the Rafale.
"Defence procurement is strictly professional and based on price," he said late last year.
What is undoubtedly of influence in this latest Franco-Indian deal, however, is the long history of the New Delhi government buying French arms.
[...]

blah blah blah,all british controlled media bull shit.now a canadian news paper,another monarchy state's newspaper.others do not buy the best plane because others do not face the prospects of going to a two front war with two nuclear armed neighbours,one a rising superpower another an unstable terrorist state.both powerful conventionally .

certain col ajai shukla might beg to differ but its his opinion.majority of indians are happy.so negative reports from newspapers of queen's states and opinions of certain retired colonel don't count much.

[eklavya]

A dogfight over Delhi
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/37b38256-50c2 ... z1lSwSNHBI

[Fidel Guevara]

PS. Look at the serrated edges for RCS reduction, the wing body blending, the stealthy air intakes... I just love this work of beauty..
[img*]http://i32.servimg.com/u/f32/11/28/97/15/drk_9611.jpg[/img]

Tejas, this is certainly a beautiful plane and very capable; however RCS reduction hasn't been the top priority for the designers. The biggest giveaway is the non-retractable refueling probe, which the designers thought would not add significantly more to the basic airframe RCS. As I understand it, flat oblique-angled surfaces with RAM tiles ensure the least energy reflected back to the enemy radar. Rounded surfaces, with RAM-impregnated paint (vs factory-machined RAM tiles), are not the best solution, but nevertheless optimal for performance - more internal volume, smoother subsonic aerodynamics, less fuel consumption. And the Rafale is definitely "curvy", in a very sexy way. Attractiveness-wise, it reminds me of the early F16C models, before they started adding on all the additional beefiness.

Head-on, the refueling probe adds a few cm^2 due to the sharp angled shape of the lower portion; however from the side it does add quite a bit to the RCS.

About the importance of each cm^2 in RCS, I found this on http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-8912.html. This is from 2007 though.

Frontal minimal RCS / Ratio of RCS / Ratio of range being detected:
* F-22A: 0.00015 ~ 0.0006 m2 --> 1 ~ 4 --> 1.00 ~ 1.41
* Su-35: 1.0 ~ 3.0 m2 --> 6666 ~ 20000 --> 9.03 ~ 11.89
* EF-2K: 0.1 ~ 0.5 m2 --> 666 ~ 3333 --> 5.08 ~ 7.60
* Rafale: 0.1 ~ 0.2 m2 --> 666 ~ 1332 --> 5.08 ~ 6.04

Forget the lowest case RCS, if you look at the upper range, the Rafale is clearly superior to the EF, and the detection range is significantly lower, due to that huge intake hanging below the EF.

If you consider Su35 as a RCS proxy for the MKI, then Rafale is 15 times smaller.

And then if you compare vs F22, Rafale is 333 times bigger, radar-wise.

Since detection range varies by the 4th power of radar energy, and the Bars has huge power behind it, the A2A gap closes significantly:

Theoretically, F-22A shall be able to detect / track Su-35 at the range of 285 to 440 km / 200 to 308 km away in head to head engagement.
* Theoretically, Su-35 shall be able to detect / track F-22A at the range of 29 to 48 km / 17 to 34 km away in head to head engagement.

* Theoretically, EF-2K shall be able to detect / track Su-35 at the range of 153 to 272 km / 107 to 163 km away in head to head engagement.
* Theoretically, Su-35 shall be able to detect / track EF-2K at the range of 150 to 256 km / 90 to 180 km away in head to head engagement.

* Theoretically, Rafale shall be able to detect / track Su-35 at the range of 87 to 130 km / 52 to 91 km away in head to head engagement.
* Theoretically, Su-35 shall be able to detect / track Rafale at the range of 150 to 203 km / 90 to 142 km away in head to head engagement.

Being an auto buff, I think of the RCS and detection ranges as vehicles at night:

1) Rafale is a silver-gray Porsche 911 at night (base case)
2) EF is a glossy white Porsche 911, with additional turbocharging
3) Su35 (or MKI) is a bright-fluorescent-yellow Hummer, but with powerful searchlights and massive firepower
4) F22 is a matte-black Suzuki Hayabusa superbike, with all the limitations of what a motorcycle can carry, and most of that is invested in high-end sensor gear.

Head to head, the Raptor always wins, but is limited by the small number of weapons on board. (since a single external AMRAAM increases the RCS by an order of magnitude).

[Rony]

A dogfight over Delhi
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/37b38256-50c2 ... z1lSwSNHBI

From the above link,

Defence experts, however, say other factors came into play in the form of investment agreements, whereby they were required to invest half the value of the contract back into India, and technology transfer. “The deal is beyond the aircraft,” says Uday Bhaskar, a Delhi-based defence analyst. “If I was in the shoes of France looking at India, I would go beyond the fighter to the next big-ticket items of civil nuclear power and the [nuclear] submarine arena.”

Bharat Karnad, a defence expert at the Centre for Policy Research in Delhi, says a likely bargaining chip was the prospect of the use of nuclear testing facilities in Bordeaux to shore up the thermonuclear shortcomings of India’s nuclear arsenal. Such collaboration would give them more confidence in their own deterrent in the long-running standoff with nuclear-armed Pakistan. “The Indian government can’t be blamed for misleading anyone. It was government-to-government from the very beginning.We wanted to know what things we would get with the fighter,” he says.

Competitors suspect the nuclear element played a part in the decision. “Dassault got very aggressive on price and then Sarkozy rounded out the deal at the very end, possibly with some side-deal involving nuclear energy,” one German official says.
Mr Sarkozy, months away from a presidential election that promises to be a bitter fight, and Dassault are quietly triumphant. He has underlined his determination by saying the final negotiations had “the full support of the French authorities” and would include technology transfers “guaranteed” by the state.

Two years ago, even sceptical senior Indian diplomats expressed pleasure at a visit by Mr Sarkozy that placed nuclear energy at the centre of French engagement. Mr Sarkozy appeared determined to leverage the loyalty Paris earned in 1998 by not showing opprobrium at Delhi’s nuclear tests, which circumvented the nuclear non-proliferation treaty.

More recently, stalled deals in Brazil and the United Arab Emirates had put Dassault under intense pressure to give the Indians an attractive price, particularly on the lifetime cost of supporting and upgrading the aircraft. Gérard Longuet, defence minister, threatened to end Rafale production unless a foreign sale was secured.

“Sarko is willing to give them whatever [technology] they want,” says a French defence industry executive. “It’s fair to say the technology has been around a while now so is not quite leading-edge. Remember we were talking about selling the Rafale to [Muammer] Gaddafi in Libya, so there are no qualms really.”

[Rakesh]

Rafale as a satellite launcher? Sounds far fetched? See below;

[svinayak]

With the global economic situation the timing of the deal for bargaining was perfect

[NRao]

vive la différence!

[Fidel Guevara]

Rafale as a satellite launcher? Sounds far fetched? See below;

Interesting concept! Besides the satellite launch potential, Aldabaran also makes for an excellent FOBS or ALBM system, considering that a Trident W-88 MIRV warhead is only 164kg.

The critical factor seems to be the payload and TWR of the launching aircraft, and the MKI would then be the ideal vehicle (if this French tech can be mated to the MKI, that is).

The attachment of the Aldebaran boosters to the 2nd stage did look a little dodgy; might have been better to have something like a modern, half-size version of Skybolt, which would fit nicely into Rambha's bottom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAM-87_Skybolt

[shukla]

Rafale comes home
Indian Express:Jasjit Singh - Retired Air Commodore, is Director, Centre for Air Power Studies
(posting full)

The next step for India is to build design and development capacity

The much delayed process of aircraft acquisition and the excruciatingly tough trials to evaluate the six aircraft on offer has finally led to the shortlisting of the French Rafale as the key MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) for the coming years. But there are many items on the acquisition chart to be ticked still, and knowing the complex business of the arms market, the possibilities of unknown roadblocks or at least hiccups may still have to be overcome — although the end result may remain unchanged from what today looks like the final choice. The process of acquiring the 126 MMRCA, often termed by the media as the mother of all deals (though the India-Russia deal on Sukhoi’s Su-30MKI for over 300 aircraft, with a follow up T-50 fifth generation fighter, would then have to be called the “father of all deals”), has taken a long time during which ever more combat aircraft have completed their design life, leading to a continuing drop in the combat force level of the Indian Air Force.

But this process, systematic and almost scientific even if rather prolonged, should also finally lay the ghost of Bofors — that has been the major cause of delays in defence modernisation for the past quarter century — to rest. Its utility would last only if the principles on which the shortlisting and final contract are signed became a regular procedure — even for aircraft designed and produced domestically. But this can only happen if the armed forces, who are the most crucial stakeholders in arms acquisitions, become an integrated part of the process from the design to the end state.

The selection of the Rafale as the IAF’s next MMRCA still has quite a distance to go, although professionally it proves that the IAF’s expectations of acquiring more of the Mirage 2000, since the end of 2000, was professionally sound. At another level, though this factor did not play a part in the current procedure, France has been a reliable partner in India’s quest for self-reliance in combat aircraft except that previous attempts to manufacture them in India had not borne fruit. The first lesson in diversifying sources of arms was learnt when India mobilised and deployed its armed forces on the border in early 1951 in response to Pakistan’s threat of war. And the aircraft selected was the Dassault’s Ouragon in preference to the British Meteor. US arms aid to Pakistan after 1954 led to an expansion of the IAF and the first fighter selected was the Dassault’s Mystere IVA, the most heavily armed combat aircraft that the IAF has had till the Su-30MKI joined the fleet. Unfortunately, this process did not lead to licence manufacture even after the Mirage 2000-H was acquired in early 1980s; and, meanwhile, the French preferred to sell the Mirage III and V to Pakistan. Dassault acquired great experience with delta-wing fighters and this now showed up in the Rafale.

There is still a long process ahead in negotiating the terms of the contract where offsets no doubt will constitute a key factor. It would be a gross error to think of the offsets only in terms of the financial element in that 50 per cent of the cost would have to be ploughed back into Indian industry and economy. We need to understand that the reason we are buying theMMRCA is that we were not able to design and develop it in spite of having manufactured and overhauled thousands of aircraft and engines in our aircraft industry which has grown into a colossus over the past 72 years. The offsets process must be seen as a lever to acquire greater capability in design and development of aircraft and its systems. After all, the Rafale has already been designed and over 160 aircraft have been manufactured and are in service with the French Air Force, some of which were employed in the strikes over Libya.

But it is obvious that with a life of nearly three to four decades (in actual service), the Rafale will require upgrades in technological terms to a large number of its systems and sub-systems like radar, ECM systems, etc in another 10-15 years from now. The research and development of such upgrades (and the prioritisation of such steps) must be planned now in conjunction with Dassault and other manufacturers of such systems. The crux of the matter is that such upgrades must be developed and applied in India by the OEM (original equipment manufacturer) in partnership with Indian entities, preferably in the private sector, which would also help raise the technological and design capabilities in aviation and other sectors and in turn energise Indian industry and economy. In the first case, such an approach may require 70:30 partnerships led by the OEM, which should lead to Indian companies taking on 70 per cent share by the time the aircraft gets ready for the next major upgrades 10-15 years later.

These joint ventures would form the base for design and development of systems and components for military and civil aviation in India for the future. The government must avoid the temptation of accepting offsets in the shape of already designed systems like mission simulator, as has been done in the case of Lockheed C-130 Super Hercules; or that of seeking to do everything in and through HAL. Building design and development capacity and capability in a whole range of weapons connected systems and components/ spares is the route that will make any “mother of deals” productive and cost-effective in the decades ahead.

[ramana]

So even the offset program for C130 was a scam of sorts having no real benefits. and ucle thinks they have a birthright to sell old planes and extract concessions from India.

[karan_mc]

BAE Systems may consider cut to Typhoon price: Report

[negi]

Rakman launching satellites (nano ones in LEO) should not be a far fetched concept; F-15 eagle could launch a ASM-135 ASAT missile at least a couple of decades ago.

[SaiK]

web-bradmin: That BR's front page link on ajai shukla's article needs correction. it goes somewhere else..
--

ajaishukla.blogspot.com Simultaneously, a world-class Tejas assembly facility must be built, incorporating the manufacturing practices and quality control measures that characterise aircraft production worldwide. Currently Tejas manufacture is the responsibility of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, ...Paying Rs 75,000 crore for the Rafale will indeed boost national defence. But a far smaller expenditure on the Indian aerospace establishment

We need to think how and whats here, so that Rafale facilities could be used for LCAs. Where ever we can, we should maximize.

[member_22539]

J-10, F-15e, etc. have HUDs that are wider angle, but nothing really seems to equal the one in Rafale (maybe just my perception). Is there any way to compare the specs on these things?

you are right rafale hud is one of the best .i am posting the hud field of regard for various fighters:
gripen and f-15e (same HUD) : 28*20 DEGREE FIEL OF REGARD{FOR}
F-22: 30*25 DEGREE
RAFALE:30*22 DEGREE FOR
EUROFIGHTER:35*25
J-10:28*20
i have done a lot of searching as far as field of ragards for these fighters are concerned.eurofighter's HUD'S for is slightly greater than THAT of rafale and f-22.so it makes iT clear that rafale hud is the one of the best.almost as good as eurofighter 's and f-22's HUD.
I

Thanks a lot man, appreciate it

[pankajs]

Letter to the editor kind of stuff I think.

Cameron shows a sorry lack of grace in rubbishing Rafale

From Mr Antoine Delord.

Sir, Reading your report “Cameron to lobby India on jet choice” (February 2) reminded me of a sentence often heard among French rugby fans and pundits: “The English invented the concept of fair play, and then generously let others put it into practice.” You quote Mr Cameron as saying in the House of Commons that he will “encourage the Indians to look at Typhoon, because I think it is such a good aircraft”.

Let’s not even spend time on the condescension that Indian officials might perceive in this encouragement to “look at” an aircraft that has already been subject to a long and rigorous testing process. Let’s focus instead on the “fair play” displayed by the British prime minister, who also said during that debate in parliament that the Eurofighter Typhoon was a “superb aircraft with far better capabilities than Rafale” (clearly a totally unbiased opinion from an expert on the subject). Even better, a senior British government source has since been quoted as saying that the Indians had “gone for the Asda option instead of Waitrose”!

While the UK government is perfectly entitled to continue promoting “its” aircraft until the procurement process reaches its formal end, rubbishing its better-placed competitor doesn’t come across as being particularly gracious.

Antoine Delord, Brussels, Belgium

[pankajs]

BAE considers cut to Typhoon price - FT

[...]
However, analysts and industry executives said any technical advantage the Typhoon might enjoy over the Rafale was not enough to outweigh the difference in price plus any other sweeteners, such as more generous technology transfer agreements, offered by France.

John Louth, analyst at the think tank, Royal United Services Institute, said that the companies’ bid was too technical and lacked the grand military vision of that of the French: “It was a bit like bringing a knife to a gunfight.”

According to Douglas Barrie of the International Institute for Strategic Studies, a key issue for buyers was whether the supplier would support it over the jet fighter’s 30-year life by offering technology upgrades and the latest weaponry.

Analysts believe this consideration prompted India to snub two US fighters in an earlier tender round, even though the US was the only country able to provide it with the latest radar technology. The Typhoon and Rafale are still working on such systems.

Mr Barrie said: “You want to have guaranteed access to key technology platforms, whether this is the ability to integrate your own weapons or modify key areas of software to do with radar or electronic warfare performance, over the long term.”

[Sid]

BAE considers cut to Typhoon price - FT

[...]
However, analysts and industry executives said any technical advantage the Typhoon might enjoy over the Rafale was not enough to outweigh the difference in price plus any other sweeteners, such as more generous technology transfer agreements, offered by France.
.......................

They may lower the price right now but whos gonna pay for the Trench upgrades of Typhoon, that will allow it to fire more A2G weapon then piddly LGBs.

Raffy can fire a whole lot more A2G weapons then Typhoon right now, and to enable Typhoon to fire such a wide range of weapons we will have to pay through our nose.

Brits don't want to upgrade their Typhoon...... well no one wants as things stands right now.

[Badar]

India will proceed with price negotiations with France as usual. If the deal falls through (and it won't) only then can we will look at the "new discount offering" from Cassidian.

[Sid]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmflvqfK ... r_embedded#!


excellent Flight demo of Raffy.

[shukla]

UK team raises Eurofighter losing bid with Indain MoD
Indian Express

Less than a week after the EADS Eurofighter lost out on a bid to supply 126 fighter aircraft to the Indian Air Force, the United Kingdom has raised the matter with the Defence Ministry, insisting that the combat aircraft is better than the French Rafale that has emerged as the lowest bidder. Sources said the matter was raised on Monday by UK’s Minister for International Security Strategy Gerald Howarth who met Minister of State for Defence M M Pallam Raju on Monday. The visiting delegation reportedly told the Defence Ministry that it was disappointed at the choice as the Eurofighter is a better aircraft.

[pankajs]

India will proceed with price negotiations with France as usual. If the deal falls through (and it won't) only then can we will look at the "new discount offering" from Cassidian.

Agree.

In a way the Brits are being very helpful. All this talk of reworking the price may help keep the pressure on the French who otherwise may have relaxed given the preference shown by IAF. This is looking at the whole deal from purely commercial standpoint.

[SSridhar]

Rafale wins the MMRCA competition - Ramesh Phadke, IDSA
Excerpts

The Mirage-2000 fleet has maintained a very high serviceability and utilisation rate and above all an unbelievably envious flight safety record. It is hoped that the Rafale would prove equally effective and economical in the long run. The main reason for the high serviceability of the Mirage-2000 fleet, I am told, is the near instant availability of spares and technical support from the French Dassault and the Thales team, and a state of the art avionics laboratory in Gwalior

Dassault will be expected to transfer all the requisite ‘knowledge’ for safe and efficient operations of this fourth generation fighter. High sortie rates and easy maintainability would be the key to the success of the Rafale project.

Another key area of cooperation would be the assistance France provides for India’s long running Kaveri engine programme. All defence contracts of this scale are said to include up to 50 per cent offset obligation. Given the current state of Indian defence industry and the associated regulations, both India and France would have to find new and innovative ways to translate that into reality. The Rafale carries a wide array of highly sophisticated weapons and missiles without which it is but an advanced platform. India would be well advised to explore the manufacture of as many of these weapons and missiles as possible. Avionics including the AESA radar (itself under development) is another area for close cooperation and ToT, if this relationship is to become truly rewarding for both sides.

It must be noted that though the Rafale may cost less than the Eurofighter, it is still awfully expensive. Unit costs of upwards of USD 100-125 million or Rs. 500-625 crore have been mentioned. The aircraft’s upkeep and maintenance would thus demand a very high level of training and skills both by the pilots and technical personnel. We simply cannot afford stupid mistakes. This would require a fundamental change in our outlook to peacetime operations where availability of support services such as weather forecasting, air traffic control, ground infrastructure such as clean and clear runways and navigation and radar facilities would have to be ensured on a 24/7 basis. Murphy’s Law operates even in today’s hi-tech environment, perhaps even more so. Peacetime flying operations are as demanding as those in war. The IAF will have to quickly train its pilots and support personnel to make the Rafale fully operational in good time.

[pankajs]

Time to handover production of anyone aircraft to one of the private sector firms. We could start with Raffy or Tejas.

[koti]

I don not why there is an opinion on pushing for Gripen for the additional 60 A/c.
It is no doubt a good all round platform but why do we need a fifth Airframe into IAF?

If price is a concern, we can opt for the Mig35. Gripen is not a match for the Fulcrum A2A.
This way we wouldn't be adding a completely new airframe and costs associated with procuring also will be similar.

Rafale's said disadvantage of Hi alt WVR can be offset by this platform, and at a nominal cost.
We can take advantage of existing stockpile of Roosi arms instead of European ones which are far costlier.

[Roperia]

I was browsing through this Rafale's India website http://www.rafale.co.in/ and I came across something mysterious - "future Indian Navy combat aircraft program".

RAFALE´s objective in the current MMRCA program (as well as in a future Indian Navy combat aircraft program ) is therefore double:

on the one hand, to offer Indian forces an up-to-date entirely multi role combat aircraft at level with India’s political and military importance during the first half of the century.
on the other hand, to provide Indian industry with a production license and a comprehensive set of technologies requested for the production of a “national” combat aircraft.

Link to Rafale's webpage from where this is quoted Technology & sovereignty

The aim of the RAFALE candidacy for the MMRCA program is to provide the Indian Air Force (and later Indian Navy when a similar combat aircraft program is launched) with a combat aircraft at par with the political and military rank of India in the coming decades, able to ensure and to maintain the local air superiority of India.[/COLOR]

Link to Rafale's webpage from where this is quoted Technology & superiority

Question to all - what is this future Indian Navy combat aircraft program? Other than some of us rooting for F-35 for our navy, we've not heard any one else (Admiral, Defense Minister, Babu etc.) talk about it.

[member_20617]

To all jingoes

Is this our last major purchase of fighter aircrafts?

Shouldn’t this be our last major purchase of fighter aircrafts?

I firmly believe that we need to make our own fighter aircrafts:

Tejas 1 (already built) and Tejas 2 (in pipeline);

AMCA (design stage); and FGFA (in pipeline)

UCAV – we need to invest heavily in this area as future wars will be fought with these types of fighter aircrafts

[pankajs]

Question to all - what is this future Indian Navy combat aircraft program? Other than some of us rooting for F-35 for our navy, we've not heard any one else (Admiral, Defense Minister, Babu etc.) talk about it.

This may be the French push to get Raffy on board our carriers should we decide to add new airframes apart from N-LCAs and Mig29s. The push will rest of logic of commonality, easy availability of spares, local manufacture, ease of change/addition, etc.

[Badar]

To all jingoes

Kisne bulaya mujhai pataal se?

Is this our last major purchase of fighter aircrafts?

No.

Shouldn’t this be our last major purchase of fighter aircrafts?

No.

I firmly believe that we need to make our own fighter aircrafts:

Firmly agree.

Tejas 1 (already built) and Tejas 2 (in pipeline);

Question is how long will it remain in the pipeline, and when will it fill our force buckets?

AMCA (design stage); and FGFA (in pipeline)

AMCA very high risk. FGFA medium risk.

UCAV – we need to invest heavily in this area as future wars will be fought with these types of fighter aircrafts

We suspect that technologies are maturing to the point that aerial robots are viable - but this is conjectural and unproven (for all but the trivial cases). Are UCAVs the new dreadnoughts of our generation or nuclear powered bombers? Jury is out. Don't write off manned combat aircraft for another generation or so at the very least or even assume that they will dominate force numbers for now. Robots will certainly be useful force adjuncts.

India should certainly start laying ground work and invest in low hanging fruit - stealthy, recon UAV and the like for a start. Perhaps followed by a relatively dumb systems that can quitely go and drop PGMs at fixed geographic locations. But a full fledged, largely autonomous UCAV? I wouldn't mind someone else other than India having a go to prove or disprove the tactical viability of these system in a hot war. Going forward there will be a three way struggle for funds between manned aircraft, UCAV and long range missiles with a different nations deciding different mixes based on needs. To early to make a call.

[member_22516]

Question to all - what is this future Indian Navy combat aircraft program? Other than some of us rooting for F-35 for our navy, we've not heard any one else (Admiral, Defense Minister, Babu etc.) talk about it.

A RFI (request for information) was made by Indian Navy 1 or 2 years ago, for 40 a/c.
M-29K (or M-35K depending on MMRCA), F-18, Rafale M and Naval EFT have been adressed this RFI. I don't know about Naval Tejas being in that group.
It's obvious that this IN RFP would only be proposed as Naval variant of Rafale or EFT to the MMRCA winner, in order to limit the airframes in Indian Forces and reduce costs. And considering that even UK thought about having Rafale M instead of Naval EFT while waiting for F-35C availability, and that Rafale is L1 in MMRCA, i would not put 1 penny on Naval EFT.

2 years later, we may also consider F-35 as a potential bidder with its carrier version C.
Discussions are still on before inducting a RFP which is supposed to include :
-M-29K / M-35K
-F-18E/F
-Rafale M
-F-35C

Buying F-18 doesn't seem to be consistent : old airframe and another one for Indian maintenance.
F-35 is really political : only if India wants a Naval 5th gen a/c, without any offset (no dreams to wait for)
If think that Naval LCA is apart from this contract and will have its own naval version in parallel

To my mind, the process will see Mig and Dassault as finalists.
-The price would imply Mig choice.
-But if Rafale really inks the MMRCA contract, HAL could as well build Rafale M under licence for Indian Navy at an "affordable" cost (more than Mig but less than MMRCA) with manufacturing plant and technicians already in India, with same weaponery and systems as IAF.

-The deck of Indian Navy future carrier is also in the balance : F-18, F-35 and Rafale need catapults, which is at higher cost than M-29 solution.

Rafale appears to be the most consistent choice as 4+gen , with same system, sensors, datalink, training, maintenance, weapons than IAF MMRCA. But the cost will be quite high.

[koti]

What are the advantages of wingtip pylons on Rafale?
Can they release the missile from any angle?

Also, why are CFT blunt and Drop Tanks sharp?

[sooraj]

Wake up and smell the curry: India spurns Mother England’s peanuts




http://www.firstpost.com/politics/wake- ... qus_thread

[koti]

^ I bookmarked the site.

[krishnan]

Site blocked ?

doesnt load for me

[koti]

The site is fine
Try Cache

[Singha]

^But never mind, Brits. Don’t be such sore losers. Stiff upper lip, old boy. Look at the bright side. You can keep the chicken tikka masala. You’ll always have Jeremy Clarkson. And in some corner of the musty dining room of the Calcutta Club it is forever England.

[Altair]

Late Latif here.
Why so much British heartburn? We ordered over 66 BAE Hawk AJT's and Navy got another 57 starting delivery next year right? What did I miss? Did we cancel the order or what?
That order isnt cheap.
Altair

[Fidel Guevara]

INS Jalashwa
So called offensive equipment:
4 × 3 in / 50 caliber AA gun mounts
.................... What a great offensive equipment.

Boeing P8-I

What does offensive P8-I has? Apart from Torpedoes, Mines and Harpoons.

INS Jalashwa: OK, so an infantry amphibious assault battalion of 900 soldiers is not offensive.

P81: This is a gem: it only has Torpedoes, Mines and Harpoons, nothing offensive.

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that this fellow has crossed the line between idiocy and lunacy?

[harbans]

^ Indeed 66 plus 57 additional AJTs and a massive 300m $ deal with Rolls Royce to supply Adour MK 871 engines for thew same..EADS is also manufacturing the Eurocopter which plans to sell hundreds in India. Possibly after Russia, UK and France are the biggest beneficiaries of defense deals with India.

[Badar]

INS Jalashwa: you are right, an infantry amphibious assault battalion of 900 soldiers is not offensive.

Jalashwa was explicitly purchased as a training system to gather experience on large amphibious vessels. While it can be used for relief work and full scale training etc, it cannot be used in war for offensive purposes. We gave the US an undertaking when we purchased it. The US has a right to periodically inspect it to ensure we are in compliance.

P81: again you are right, it only has Torpedoes, Mines and Harpoons, nothing offensive.

It is arguable that an ASW/LRMP aircraft is defensive in nature. Some systems like SAMs are inherently defensive.

[sudhan]

Now this is something interesting you pointed out. What does offensive P8-I has? Apart from Torpedoes, Mines and Harpoons. The SLAM missile was not part of the deal. But then again there is nothing else in the market which can match the capabilities of P8-I. If there would had been, who knows whether India would had gone for P8-I.

Saar, the P-8I is most definitely an offensive weapon platform.. You don't need SLAM, SLAM-ERs (both derived from Harpoon) or Brahmos to tag a platform as offensive.. Once the Navy sets out to neutralize paki subs, its the P-8Is that would lead the way..