Bharat Rakshak

Thanks for the link , Translating using google for any technical jargon in russian is a lost cause.

But the concept is very sound and with a single stone it kills two bird , Hydrogen-Oxygen Fuel cell is the most effecient form of AIP till date so it takes care of the efficiency part without compromising with stuff like MESMA AIP which are safe but not so efficient and in conventional submarine every watt of power counts , secondly it makes the processes safe by generating using same fuel as diesel and by not storing hydrogen separately which is not exactly you might want to carry in a sub and the expensive shore based infra to keep it 99 % purity level.

Any update on the Tea Kettle reactor that they were testing ? Thats one good area to invest for much better submerged endurance for conventional subs.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ycFOO1IGef4/TzuDdXexURI/AAAAAAAAIuA/OOah43LdHz0/s1600/ICGS_Rajshree1.JPG

Is that INS Kamorta (P28) in the background? Looks like a lot of work still left, no radar/weapons installed yet?

Source: Chhindits blog.

Edit: Main gun has been installed.

Thats Kamorta. It has unique anchor placement.

Photo on clicking the link says ICGS Rajshree1

Edited Later: do you mean the IN ship behind it under construction

Yes sir, that's why the word "background".

The Kamorta lookls great! Tx for pic.

The Scorpene sized subs,including German U-boats are just too small for integrating BMos.Despite size,pl. remember that subsonic anti-ship missiles are passe.Both Europe and the US are now frantically trying to develop their own supersonic anti-ship missiles,includng sub-launched versions.Therefore why should India which has a head start over these other nations dump its advantage? Even OZ has realised that a large conventional sub,larger than the Collins class, with AIP is required for its purposes.

Secondly,just examine the cost of an N-sub as against a conventional sub.The USN after exercising for over a year with a Swedish sub,has realised its virtues.It is only because US subs have a global operational area,that nuclear power is an absolute requirement,though it my reconsider its policy and build conventional subs as well if need be.

Furthermore,you can't have just one type of sub expecting it to be a "jack of all trades" it will become a "master of none".Examine the IAF which has opted for a high,med. and low mix of fighters and multi-role aircraft.Our surface warships too come in dfif. sizes,displacements and capabilities too.Smaller,stealthier subs are better for the littorals,but come with reduced firepower.There is absolutekly nothing wrong in having different designs for subs too,based upon their operational role,though one must concede that the IN requires a sizeable number of SSGNs for its gobal operations,apart from escorting/protecting its SSBNs if need be.A cost-effective balance of types of subs required must be worked out.

How is it different form MESMA ?

The way the situation is around us, the 30(24 conv+ the nukes) planned subs are just not going to be enough(though goodness knows when we will see that no in service with the IN). The IN needs a mix of at least 50 subs to take care of all the threats around us.

50 subs or even 25 in a reasonable timeframe means we need 3 production lines whether in india or abroad in parallel. subs are very long lead items. perhaps once we decide on what we want, can setup 2 lines in india and ask the foreign builder to run his own line also.

Most ships have two anchors - one on either side. This design saves weight. Good design choice.

Ethanol and Oxygen , reportedly good on Safety and Power ,low on Efficiency and Discretion compared to all the other AIP available.

I read some years back IN did its own study on AIP and recommended Fuel Cell using Hydrogen/Oxygen as its preferred AIP

Is there no one working on 100KW to 1MW nuclear battery designs out there ?

They would make so much more sense than any AIP system.

There are TWO anchors on the Kamorta Class ASW Corvettes. It's not just one in the top of the bow and there is another one the other side of the ship. Why this unconventional design...that I donno.

From Rediff:
Navy Ensign
by Desi Bhai (View MyPage) on Feb 09, 2012 11:36 PM | Hide replies

Why does the naval ensign of India seem to depict itself as a subjugate of the British Raj?

I have also the same question. Why do we have a white flag with two red lines - one horizontal and one vertical. I know the top left square shows the Indian flag.

I am sure that a white flag with two red lines - one horizontal and one vertical has something to do with either British or some European country.

I thought we achieved independence from Britain in 1947!

IMO its a shame that we continue with this naval ensign. We must have our own naval ensign.

I suggest we have a sky blue flag with a gold Surya in the middle.

^^ I missed the other anchor positioned offset.

Positioning the anchor in the bow instead of the side has least chances of anchor/chain contact with the hull. Most probably lesson learnt from the following incident http://www.indianexpress.com/news/warsh ... st/13545/0

Is this your view or someone else's view?

It is not something anyone who hasn't served under that ensign would understand, despite that I will an attempt to explain.

The red cross is Saint George's cross. And this ensign is continuing the cherished legacy of Indian Navy for 500 years of gallant actions across Middle East to China.

Among many things, it represents discipline and professionalism. Especially important since all indigenous naval or military efforts before this service was established lacked discipline and professionalism, that contributed greatly to their losing. Especially since self discipline is so lacking in public and private life today.

The Indian Navy descended from a professional service and not some Maharaja's or nawab's service.

The Indian Navy would rather honour its heritage than spare the scantest thought or slightest regard for your opinion (or someone else's opinion that you are posting).

You love mythology and a oversized smiley with eyes and mustache representing a hydrogen ball. The Indian Navy loves its history.

Also note Indian and Pakistani civil ensign follows the traditional pattern. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_ensign

Since everyone can express opinions, here is mine. IMO, the suggested flag is more appropriate for people whose personality make it impossible for them to ever have wives/husbands/partners, and hold anti Valentine's day protests flying that flag with mustache.

I have a simple pooch..

Can the life of the Viraat be extended beyond 2018, and can it embark the new Mig29s?

It used to have a steam catapult, arrester cables, and handled planes comparable in height, weight and wingspan - to the Mig 29 in its original Avatar as the Centaur..

Tsarkar,also remember the disastrous attempt to change the ensigna few years ago,when a new flag of red and blue was substituted.The IN immediately found out that the white,,on the old ensign served a very useful purpose,easy identification of an IN warship,which was found difficult with the new design.It therefore sensibly went back to the old ensign,which as you have also pointed out is an historic one,which we used after Independence to good measure in '71 tanning the backsides of the Pakis!.

Not able to understand if you are being sarcastic or being straight-forward. Dont have that much pisko ability.

Another contender coming. Meet U-216.
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... iew&id=264

^^^ Looks like one big conventional sub with an endurance of 80 days @ 4000T but hopefully IN is not the first to try it and take care of debugging the problem , better done by host navy or some other navy.

its likely this design is in response to a quiet expression of interest from india and australia who are both looking for the next gen SSK.

Yes, Philip, the ensign was redesigned to a blue field by MoD under BJP led NDA in 2001 as described here http://indiannavy.nic.in/flag.htm

In less than 3 years, it was repealed because the blue field was not distinguishable at sea. Plus IN officers and men wanted their tradition back
http://www.financialexpress.com/news/in ... nt/101914/
http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/apr/23navy.htm

Here is INS Rana charging to battle at 30 knots flying the white ensign as its battle ensign. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... bar_07.jpg

Admiral Jayant Nadkarni on tradition http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/aug/08nad.htm
A few pages back in this thread, the story of INS Kukhri, Captain Mulla and Lt V K Jain is described. Their tradition will be remembered for 300 years

Hyprocrite politicians like Uddhav & Raj Thackeray talk about Marathi Asmita but send their children to "English Medium" Bombay Scottish School, that has not only retained Bombay in its name, but also honours a Scottish affiliation. Shouldn't Uddhav & Raj Thackeray send their children to "Marathi Medium" municipality schools? Such rascals with double standards mislead people and are the worst enemy of the Marathi speaking people and the Indian nation.

Just what we needed

some details from secretprojects.co.uk forum: apparently already proposed to australia.

Typ 216 class
89, 00 meters long
Speed: >20kn
8, 10 meters in diameter
3.000t Deplacement
2 Decks, 10 cabins with up to 6 bunks
80 days at sea
Extra space for Special Forces, divers, teaching staff, Engineers
Crew: 33
The submarine has a “Vertical Multi-Purpose Lock” for UUV’s. mines, cruise missiles, navy divers and Special forces or as extra space for cargo or fuel. The type U216 can also be fitted with the IDAS system and the TRIPLE-M/MURAENA system.
Source: German military & defense magazine "Strategie und Technik", November 2011


Edit:
Quote
According to the Russian military-industrial complex site on November 1 report, recently published “Jane’s Navy World” published an article, Horvath, Germany – German Shipbuilding Co., Ltd. (HDW) is developing a new generation of 216 conventional submarines. Information about the new submarine is the first time in September of this year out of the disclosure.experts say, HDW 216 submarine’s development objective is to participate in the Australian Department of Defense under the SEA 1000 program activities at the target. According to the Australian government’s plan, as in 2025 the Navy purchased its 12 large conventional submarines, of which six will be used to replace the existing fleet of old-fashioned ‘Collins’ submarines. Australian Navy’s new submarine made a very high performance requirements, with special emphasis on the new boat should have the waters away from the base of the ability to perform combat missions. Analysts pointed out that the Australian military requirements implies a new submarine base should be able to travel to China from Australian waters operational requirements. Jane’s experts pointed out that 216-type submarines, including a key component of the joint, including methanol fuel cell power plant. Only depend on the fuel cell, the new submarines will be able to continue sailing four weeks underwater with four speed or road 2400 sea miles. In diesel engines, the submarine will be able to continue sailing speed of 10 knots 10,400 sea miles. 216 submarine holding force up to 80 days. The lithium-ion polymer battery can further enhance the submarine’s speed and endurance. In order to lithium batteries, the German side may use a new type of high-power diesel generators. The U216 conventional submarines using double-shell design, full load displacement of about 4,000 tons, the hull length 89 m, maximum diameter of 8.1 meters. Members of the rated load of the boat 33, in addition, the boat also set aside space for the special unit. Taking into account may be used to perform other transport tasks, 216 submarines also made available a special compartment for the storage of materials and equipment.
216 submarine of the main weapons, including six 533 mm torpedo tubes (equipped with 18 fast loading of the torpedoes, can be used to launch anti-ship missiles or laying mines) and a diameter of 2.5 m multi-purpose vertical launch system (capable of firing cruise missiles). In addition, the rear of the boat can also carry a miniature underwater SDV conveyor.

and use Chrome to view the translation in MarineForum the german navy magazine which has the full article and drawings. looks like space for atleast 10 SLCM/ASM

http://www.marineforum.info/html/u216.html

the vertical chamber behind the sail is multipurpose and can be used to hold marcos gear, mine launcher and probably 5-6 Harpoon sized ASM though longer but slim weapons like nirbhay should also work. it does not look sized for brahmos type huge missiles.

other than that this thing ticks all the checkboxes we have been discussing ... incl the siemens li-ion fuel cells, sophisticated optronic masts, all manner of silencing, crew comforts, small crew of 33 + marcos on a 3-watch system ....

Just the type of long range ocean going sub with VL capability, that the IN needs

whatever suits Aus will suit us just fine. HDW played a good hand here attempting to kill 2 birds with one stone.

Rus has no design in this category unless Rubin is about to unveil one worked on in secret

Navantia/DCN S80 is a lot smaller....if they are not working on a S90 proposal they are behind.

the gym and cinema hall, plus 2 level bunking instead of 3 level, spacious wardrooms is definitely SSBN style - designed for long missions of 80-90 days.

Ohio SSBN have a nice gym with treadmills isolated from floor using hydraulic jacks per a natgeo/disc pgm they showed. probably special quiet motors to drive the belt as well.

a 6-pack of VL SM-40 Exocet with 200km range or 6xNirbhay SLCM is just what the doc ordered for this puppy.

Sir you mean to say the Indian Navy had the Saint George's cross on it's flag even before the British arrived ?

Correction. 400 years.

The original was the Honourable East India Company's Marine formed 1612. The manpower consisted of British officered European mercenaries, Marathas, Kolis, Sidis, and others drawn from local seafaring communities. It operated locally built Ghurabs. From its inception, it protected Indian rivers carrying manufactured goods (rivers were the expressways of that era), coastal commerce, and EIC factories. It was tasked to patrol the ME within a few years of its inception.

You may refer to many published histories, for details on operations in those days and later across ME and East Asia. Wadia built teak ships fought in Arctic waters.

At one point, it was known as Bombay Marine. Curiously, the descendent of Bombay Marine is the Mumbai police. Its uniform was Navy Blue until few decades back (you may see it in old movies). The cap is still navy blue despite the rest of the uniform being Khaki.

The George Cross does not represent any affiliation or servitude to British or Europeans. It represents affiliation to a certain methodology, professionalism and qualities like discipline, order, etc.

Just like all parents even 60+ years after independence like to send their children to “English Medium” school rather than “Marathi/Kannada/Bengali/Hindi” medium schools. Do they send their children to become slaves of Englishmen at “English Medium” schools? No. Do the children become slaves? No. The aspiration/affiliation for “English Medium” comes from the education methodology, professionalism and quality.

The entire swadeshi brigade sends their children to “English Medium” schools. Before anyone preaches changing the Indian Navy affiliation, I would ask them to send their children to a Gurukul/Madrassa where shlokas/couplets are chanted and not much maths and science is taught. They very well know their children’s careers and hence rest of the life would be bleak if all they learnt was chanting.

Similarly, in the Ancient Battles thread, you’ll find examples of indiscipline, feudalism, religious fracture plaguing local forces.

Indian forces won at Arabia, Persia, ME all the way to China. The discipline led to increased self confidence. The George Cross represents the Indian Navy’s affiliation to those values.

Just like students studying at Bombay Scottish school don’t become Scottish slaves. The “Scottish” represents affiliation to certain educational values.

TSarkar you seem to have gone on complete defensive

I simply asked a question . You seem to have taken the point about IN using a British (ok technically a foreign) ensign personally.

Btw Indians send their kids to English medium schools out of NECESSITY for that is the language most of the civilized world communicates in and hence it is an automatic choice.

For IN to use ensign similar to RN's one (obviously replacing the union jack on top right with Indian flag) is not something which is born out of necessity (in the sense it does not in anyway affect/hamper it's mandate or operations) now whether it should be changed or not is another topic which I do not wish to get into . Btw even the British national flag or the union jack is essentially a combination of St. George's cross and St. Andrew's cross (that is how you get the blue and white background). Your argument that St. George's cross has this 400+ years long history associated with it is well taken and may will have a sentimental value for those who served with the RIN but whether it should continue after independence is imho debatable ; otherwise one can claim using similar logic that why have a 'Tiranga; might as well use the Union Jack (which is nothing but St. George's cross + St. Andrew's Cross) as our national flag for that too has several hundred years of cherished history ?

Btw as far as IN and it's cherished history is concerned does it only go back to 1612 ?

Did the British allow Indians to reach the highest levels in the Navy? Does the George Cross also represent those values?

So what? And it seems you have such faith in the professionalism of George cross over Dharma chakra, which is surprising. And Having an Indian symbol remove those qualities or is it going to enforce the Indian qualities? I do feel that the symbol represents servitude even though no Indian solider want to be one.

Your comparison is totally akward. English Medium is a way to learn English. The schools of tomorrow will provide students with the option to study any foreign language they may like along with their mothertongue. That never means we are becoming slaves. But Indian children will learn languages from Arabic to Zulu along with science and maths after starting the morning with Vande Mataram and saluting the Indian flag.

Don't compare Madrass with Gurukul. They are not the same. And by the way i forget to remember that Aryabhatta went to an English school. Also the Japanese and others attend English schools and their technological superiority and discipline come from that.

Those kinds of things do happen due to lack of Dharma within the leaders at that time. Now brutality can win you wars. But where is your Britain today?

What are those educational values? Values meant to view India and anything Indian as bad? I do feel Mumbai Indian School name with better teaching will be fear superior in all ways.

If Talwar dropped anchor in May, then its May 2006.

According to the Project 28 page on BR/Navy. Plate cutting on the lead ship of the Kamorta class began in August 2005.

So either the Indian Navy has a time machine and/or it changes designs on the fly or ...........

How can you possibly conclude that this design feature was add-on and not a part of the original design? FWIW, P28 has a bulbous bow http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Imag ... ect28b.jpg and the anchor position could possibly have been originally designed at the bow.

Not that I am aware of. If you have any additional information on this, do illuminate us.

Yes, it does, if the project timeline isn’t impacted and the cost of change in terms of money and material isn’t significant. Or if the change is vital enough to implement irrespective of the time, material or cost impact.

No two ships, even from the same class, are identical. It is just that the differences aren't perceptible.

For example, Brahmaputra was launched with RAWS-3 radar in 2000 while the Beas was launched with Elta 2238. The below above and below deck equipment for both systems was different, and the original structural design to accommodate the former was revised for the latter. The revisions were later carried out for the earlier ships. Similarly, newer EW equipment also led to changes for EMC/EMI compatibility.

Does both Indian and US versions rely on conventional radars as opposed to AESA?

afaik there is no sea search airborne aesa radar that the moment.
maybe it doesnt matter much for sea search because ships move very slow relative to aircraft targets. aesa is always on expensive side.