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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 11:17 
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Jaybhatt wrote: :

Badar : your so-called elucidation is even more contradictory than your earlier warbling.

And you tie yourself in knots further when you say something in one line and the exact opposite in the next.

Example : Badar A : "Prime Minister pushing Typhoon. Why? Local Politics. Response: Ignore."

Badar B : in the very next line : "Calibrate response to official moves from GoUK/BAe/Cassidian.".
Is the British PM the "GoUK" or not ? Which is "official" in your convoluted world ?

As far as responding to BAe / Cassidian is concerned, we don't even have to give them the time of the day. They lost / were booted out - the matter ends here.

" Hope that is sufficiently less confusing for you." For a person who is going around in circles, this is rich.

A waste of time to carry on with this dialogue.
____________________________________________________________________

Avid : Clearly, a calibrated response is not something that appeals to you.
______________________________________________________________________________________________

So long as it is calibrated and meaningful, I will be more than happy. Blue skies. :)


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 11:23 
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Rahul Shukla wrote:
Singha wrote:
Jodhpur - hmph! ... should have been hashimara + guwahati. 66% china: 33% pakis...

Per Dassault, only four C-130's (not the extended J's, mind you) need undertake but one flight each to transport all equipment and spares necessary to operate a squadron of 20 Rafales for 30 days. Rafales will fly to where they are needed, whenever they are needed.


Source please.


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 11:30 
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sounds a bit too good to be true, but we never know how 'expeditionary' things have become lately...engines must be super reliable to run at war sortie rates without needing spare engines.


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 12:35 
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indranilroy wrote:
Source please.
Singha wrote:
sounds a bit too good to be true... engines must be super reliable...

indranilroy / Singha,

Pls refer to page 3, column 2 of this official Dassault publication (pdf): Fox Three. Fact is that Rafales can deploy to Hashimara and/or Guwahati within hours if necessary, "piss process and sikularism" notwithstanding. Regarding M88 engines, per Dassault (not in the link provided):

Quote:
In an effort to reduce costs of ownership, the M88 has been designed with ease of maintenance in mind. The engine comprises 21 modules, interchangeable without a need for balancing and re-calibration. Some of these modules can even be changed without removing the engine from the airframe, and a M88 can be replaced in less than an hour. After maintenance, there is no need to check the turbofan in a test bench before it is installed back on the aircraft. M88 reliability is such that, even for sustained combat operations, only limited quantities of spare parts and spare engines are required.

"When introducing into service such an advanced engine, you have to be very cautious at first", explains Jacques Desclaux. "For the M88, we have selected new technologies such as powder metallurgy, and we want to be certain that problems do not appear. This is why the engine initially had to be inspected every 150 hours, but in January 2001 this interval was raised to 500 hours, corresponding to roughly two/three years of operational use. As experience builds up, it will be progressively extended to 800 hours or 1,000 hours, depending on the components. In comparison with the Rafale, when the Mirage 2000 entered service, the M53 had to be checked every 75 hours."

I'm summarizing my findings about Rafale based on ~250 pages of reading material and will post in a few days.


Last edited by Rahul Shukla on 16 Feb 2012 13:03, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 12:57 
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^^^ Thank you!


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 13:07 
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pandyan wrote:
and a good way to improve local e-con-mi. New and improved bases would bring lot of new jobs and employment for the locals.


But getting hundreds of acres of land would involve a lot of local / state level politics.

K


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 13:11 
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srai wrote:
Kersi D wrote:
Where ? Ambala ? Halwara ? Gwalior ? Kalaikunda ? Bhuj ?

Remember that a few years ago ACM Fali Major had said that all the air bases will be developed such that any aircraft can be based at any base.


Answer is Ambala, Jodhpur and Hasimara. Yes, a lot of bases will have some level of infrastructure to support all types in the IAF service. However, only the main operating bases will have the full infrastructure (as pointed out in the article you are refering) to support a specific type, such as the Rafale or Su-30MKI. When the IAF deploys a fighter type to other bases for short durations, it will use its transport planes to also move the necessary support equipment/parts and personnel for that fighter type to support operations for that deployment duration.

IAF has already identified Ambala and Jodhpur airbases in the western sector, followed by Hashimara in the eastern sector, to house the first MMRCA squadrons.
...
[/quote]

I though the Gwalior was decided as one of the bases.

I think Jodhpur has / will get SU 30MKI. I would not like to put both the frontline aircraft on a single base

K


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 13:38 
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Raf Khan wrote:
I think i would have gone for only 2-seaters for the first batch of 18 fly-away a/c, in order to train as max pilots as we can, the sooner as possible.


isn't it a 'parallel' process (post contract signing) where batches of IAF pilots will be training on the Raffys in France and taking over the inducted ones??

.............

btw was this interview posted??

http://www.surlering.com/article/articl ... -de-rafale


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 16:36 
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jodhpur is a huge shakina kind of base. hashimara is not big enough to scare nepal even.
someone needs a huge dose of civil construction.

a single scrawny Mig27 on tarmac and some half dozen wrecked chassis of Mig23 inside a couple revetments to warn the PRC that if they dare step across we will come after them ... and unleash 2 full pods of rockets from the Mig27 :rotfl: :((

and on top of that the eastern side of runway abuts a shallow looking river...the kind that is prone to flooding and changing course.


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 17:19 
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Singhaji, Massive fleet wide airbase revamps are in the works. As part of MAFI-I Hashimara will receive expanded, resurfaced, night ops capable runways. This is in addition to TACAN, DME, ILS nav aids etc, air control systems and integrated comm systems allowing all weather/adverse weather flying. The meteorological station being setup at each base will hopefully give adequate warning of incoming floods :)

A bunch of airbases and ALGs in NE and specifically Arunachal Pradesh are part of the modernization plan.


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 18:03 
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pragnya wrote:


Rafale is looking just like Tejas TD (including the tailfin paint scheme) in the pic with Mirage-2000 :wink:

Remove the canards and most won't be able to recognize one from the other.

Cheers....


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 19:12 
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EF loose repercussions.

British Trade union warns BAE System against fat bonuses :lol:


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 20:09 
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neerajb wrote:
pragnya wrote:
btw was this interview posted??

Rafale is looking just like Tejas TD (including the tailfin paint scheme) in the pic with Mirage-2000 :wink:
...


That is a M4000. Tail fin is curved at the root and also there are canards.

Image


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 00:14 
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Gurneesh wrote:

That is a M4000. Tail fin is curved at the root and also there are canards.

And two engines.. :)


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 03:52 
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^^^ the french F-15 ;-)


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 03:56 
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The Indian Air Force Faces Significant Challenges In Modernizing Its Antiquated Air Force
STRATFOR
http://stratfor.com/analysis/limits-mod ... z1maQQ0Qsb

Quote:
France's Dassault Aviation announced late last month that it had won a bid to supply India with 126 Rafale fighters over the next decade. The Indian Air Force (IAF) has recently taken a series of steps to upgrade and improve its capabilities. However, until it resolves a number of underlying issues, the IAF will continue to face significant limitations.In addition to the MMRCA competition, the IAF has launched the "Super 30" program, which will see the upgrading of 40 Su-30MKI fighters with new radars, electronic warfare systems and BrahMos missiles. The IAF has also invested almost a billion dollars in modernizing its MiG-29s to the multi-role MiG-29UPG variant. Furthermore, the IAF finalized a deal in July 2010 to upgrade its French Mirage-2000 aircraft to the Mirage-2000-5 Mk2 variant, and in January 2012 it decided to purchase 490 MICA air-to-air missiles for the Mirages.Beginning in 2020, the IAF plans to induct 250-300 PAK-FA stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft, which are currently being jointly developed with Russia, but remain in a very preliminary stage of development. At a cost of around $35 billion dollars, the project is expected to be India's most expensive defense project ever. With these future purchases, the IAF is expected to grow to 42 squadrons by 2022, about 10 more squadrons than are currently in the IAF. By comparison, Pakistan is believed to have fewer than 20 fixed-wing combat squadrons.In addition to the modernization and improvement of its fixed-wing fighter fleet, the IAF is also seeking to improve its transport and aerial-refueling tanker force. As of February 2011, the IAF operated six IL-78MKI tankers, but with its growing number of squadrons and force projection needs, the IAF in 2010 initiated the Multi-Role Tanker Transport competition for an approximately $2 billion contract to provide the IAF with another six tankers. The IAF is also improving its transport fleet, with a $4.1 billion deal signed in June 2011 for 10 American C-17 Globemaster IIIs. The IAF had signed an approximately $1 billion deal for six C-130J transports in 2008, and it is currently seeking to purchase six more aircraft of the same type.An even more serious development is that, due to the shortage of trainer aircraft, the IAF has cut down flying time for new pilots to one-third of the usual rate (25 flight hours of basic training instead of the usual 75). By comparison, the U.S. Air Force offers more than 100 flight hours of basic training to its cadets. The number of basic training hours had reportedly dwindled even lower over the past two years but has now been stabilized thanks to better management of resources. One of the ways the IAF has sought to maximize its training fleet is to train some of its pilots on MiG-21 trainer variants


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 04:53 
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Singha wrote:
jodhpur is a huge shakina kind of base. hashimara is not big enough to scare nepal even.
someone needs a huge dose of civil construction.


Jodhpur apparently, has no less than 7 IAF squadrons deployed there including 4 fighter squadrons (3 Mig-27 and 1 Bison). Perhaps the IAF is planning to convert one of the Mig-27 squadrons to the Rafale when it starts coming in.


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 05:06 
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Maharajhpur AFS @ Gwalior could have been a good choice, considering the Mirage 2000 is based there. It is also pretty deep inside India, compared to Jodhpur. Satellite bases can definitely be Jodhpur, Hashmira or wherever else...but the main base of operations could have been Gwalior. Like in the case of the Rambha's home base being Lohegaon AFS. They could house the Rafale simulators at Gwalior as well. Move the M2Ks elsewhere.

Gwalior is also home to TACDE (Tactics & Air Combat Development Establishment). Would have a good place to fine tune Katrina's doctrine, as the best of IAF's combat pilots are based there. The Rambha is also based at TACDE in Gwalior for that purpose. See below;

PHOTOS: New Runway At Air Force Station Gwalior, Su-30s Added To Base
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/10/photos-new-runway-at-air-force-station.html


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 05:15 
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I was hoping for an exclusive Rafale-only home base like what Lohegaon is for the MKIs and Gwalior for the M2ks. 8)


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 05:21 
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^^^ I was hoping my last name would be Rothschild...but alas we can only work with what we have :)


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 05:33 
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^ Change it to Gandhi trust me it works in desh. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 08:12 
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nachiket wrote:
Singha wrote:
jodhpur is a huge shakina kind of base. hashimara is not big enough to scare nepal even.
someone needs a huge dose of civil construction.


Jodhpur apparently, has no less than 7 IAF squadrons deployed there including 4 fighter squadrons (3 Mig-27 and 1 Bison). Perhaps the IAF is planning to convert one of the Mig-27 squadrons to the Rafale when it starts coming in.


First base to receive Rafale will be Ambala with the first Rafale squadron arriving between 2015-2017 directly from France and the second squadron from HAL will come between 2018-2020.

By 2020, MiG-27s and MiG-21s would have been retired (or on a verge of retirement). First Rafale squadron moving into Jodhpur will be sometime around 2020 or 2023 (depending on if the IAF wants to base Rafale in Hashimara before Jodhpur).


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 08:45 
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Kersi D wrote:
.
I though the Gwalior was decided as one of the bases.

I think Jodhpur has / will get SU 30MKI. I would not like to put both the frontline aircraft on a single base

K


Since Gwalior hosts 3 squadrons of Mirage-2000s which are not due to retire till 2035, in addition to perhaps a detachment of Su-30MKIs, there may be no space, literally speaking, for any Rafales there.


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 08:47 
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Quote:
I was hoping my last name would be Rothschild...


Then mithai would have been sent to all BRF members by a courier. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 09:06 
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negi wrote:
^ Change it to Gandhi trust me it works in desh. :mrgreen:


Rajive Gandhi....Rahul Gandhi.....Rakesh Gandhi.... :mrgreen:

It's got a nice ring to it.


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 09:18 
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BBC = with germany deciding to shut all its nuclear plants in phased manner, UK really had no other options but to throw in lot with France. perhaps Sweden will be roped in too.

UK and France sign nuclear energy agreement

The UK is to sign a deal with France to strengthen co-operation in the development of civil nuclear energy.

The government says it reiterates the UK's commitment to nuclear energy "as part of a diversified energy mix".

The coalition says the agreement will create a number of commercial deals in the nuclear energy field, worth more than £500m and creating 1,500 UK jobs.

Defence will also be on the agenda as PM David Cameron and President Nicolas Sarkozy hold a summit in Paris.

An announcement about joint development of a future unmanned aircraft is also expected.

'Joint framework'

"This joint declaration will signal our shared commitment to the future of civil nuclear power, setting out a shared long term vision of safe, secure, sustainable and affordable energy, that supports growth and helps to deliver our emission reductions targets," a statement from Downing Street said.

Personal relations between Nicolas Sarkozy and David Cameron have not been warm of late.

There have been tetchy remarks flying in both directions, the French irritated by the British veto on the European fiscal treaty, the British annoyed by what seem to be sometimes rather gratuitous criticisms of the UK economy coming out of Paris.

Summits like this oblige a different tone and so the emphasis will be on the long-term and deeper shared interests between the countries, especially in the civil nuclear and military fields.

For Mr Sarkozy, this could be one his last encounters as president with David Cameron. In the polls he's way behind the socialist challenger Francois Hollande, who incidentally will himself be visiting London at the end of this month.

The two governments will work together with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) "to strengthen international capability to react to nuclear emergencies and establish a joint framework for cooperation and exchanging good practice on civil nuclear security".

The move comes 11 months after the tsunami in Japan which wrecked the nearby the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, leaking radioactive material into the air and sea.

UK and French public and private sector bodies in the civil nuclear power industry will also work more closely in a number of areas.

These include education and training; research and development, and security.

"As two great civil nuclear nations, we will combine our expertise to strengthen industrial partnership, improve nuclear safety and create jobs at home," said Mr Cameron.


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 10:08 
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Ok enough leg pulling else Rakman might get an excuse to back pedal on his mithai promise; Sirji Akula nahi to Raffy's empty weight equivalent of barfi too will be fine (we all are getting old). :oops:


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 11:01 
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negi wrote:
^ Change it to Gandhi trust me it works in desh. :mrgreen:


And all your problems will be "sweetly" solved.


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 13:49 
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MOD is looking for Israeli Litening pod for rafale..its again MKI...izing deal like. But it would be a new experience for France to deal with such mix platform with any other country. Future possibilities are lean or slim.
But the offered pods with Rafale deal are also a clas (even USAF uses these fpods for groung opt.), so wht MOD and IAF are interested in isreali one. Is it the outcome of there experience with MKI performance?
Israeli systems in the new Indian fighter aircraft


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 13:52 
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well the french will have to play ball this time. the architecture and fittings will be frozen in next couple months and litening4 >> damocles is surely in it.


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 13:57 
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Germany has shut down its nuclear power plants and is buying power from neighbouring Czech Republic's existing nuclear power plants (where operations costs are lower than Germany) and also new nuclear power plants are coming up in Czech Republic (some even with German knowhow) !

That shows German double standards !!


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 14:07 
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That shows German western double standards !!

they are all like that when it suits them.


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 14:11 
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Rakman, I didn't get any mithai. :evil:


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 16:03 
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The MKIized rafale will also include our indigenous communication eqpt, IFF and if the future maybe our own MC, VOR/ILS, DME etc very much like the MKI as the IAF seems particular about stuff like comms etc


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 16:30 
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When we say a Rafa costs a 100 Million dollars, What will it cost the HAL to manufacture it?
Who pays the worker and raw material price? Dassault?


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 16:39 
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The IDRW article seems to indicate that while India wants to use Israeli systems, France / Dassault will not allow it. Unless we have more hard information that India will get its way on this, expecting an MKI'sation of Rafale seems unrealistic. We also have M2K upgrade deal, where we ended up with Dassault even though the Israeli option would have been cheaper. Does anyone have more information on this issue?


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 17:01 
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Whatever be the OEM's stand, we cannot have multiple communication eqpts and having different systems in turn increases the cost and adds to the maintenance headaches. The french are desperate and the INCOM does not need any extensive mods on the aircraft, its just a different LRU requiring a slight modification to the MC and as far as i know, even the M2k has a lot of HAL(hyd) eqpt and by the way in most cases(contrary to popular belief) our systems are better than firang stuff and better suited to our conditions(More importantly)


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 18:15 
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Quote:
it is known that India is primarily interested in Rafael’s Litening pod, which is intended for navigation and locating ground targets.


Rafael’s Litening pod seems to be favored one, since it has been used with MKi and Tejas , but French Rafale use Thales Damocles targeting pod ,article basically talks only about Litening pod no indication of MKi zing Rafale . and by the way same Thales made Damocles targeting pod is used in Malaysian Su-30MKM

Israeli systems in the new Indian fighter aircraft?


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 18:56 
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Just saw Headlines Today, Rafale deal in Turbulence as 2 members of MoD questioned the process of arriving at L1. It seems they are members of contract negotiating committee.


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 19:07 
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rahuls wrote:
Just saw Headlines Today, Rafale deal in Turbulence as 2 members of MoD questioned the process of arriving at L1. It seems they are members of contract negotiating committee.


hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.........interesting...here we go again..

and meanwhile Antony boasts about the uncorruptable transparent process...

India says it is negotiating contract with Dassault
Indian Express

Quote:
“Already the Contract Negotiations Committee (CNC) has started for the procurement of Rafale,” Defence Minister A K Antony said.

Quote:
Antony warned the officials and vendors involved in the process against indulging in any wrongdoing saying “everybody should be careful.... Nobody can corrupt India system. We will not tolerate this”. He said the contract negotiations take place for over six months and after that the deal will have to pass through eight stages.

“It will have to pass through scrutiny in eight stages. After CNC, it will come to Defence Ministry. In ministry also, there will be minimum four stages of scrutiny by Defence Finance. Then it will go to independent monitors appointed by the CVC and then go to the National Security Council Secretariat and Finance Ministry,” Antony said.

The Defence Minister made it clear that Indian foreign policy and relations with any country have no connection with procurement of weapon systems. “Our foreign policy and relations are one thing but our procurements are not based on political considerations. Procurement is based on trials by services and lowest price. There will be no other consideration,” Antony said. At every stage before reaching the Cabinet Committee on Security, the minister said there will be “scrupulous scrutiny” and “total transparency” would be maintained.


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