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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2012 16:26 
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sombhat wrote:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ycFOO1IGef4/TzuDdXexURI/AAAAAAAAIuA/OOah43LdHz0/s1600/ICGS_Rajshree1.JPG

Is that INS Kamorta (P28) in the background? Looks like a lot of work still left, no radar/weapons installed yet?

Source: Chhindits blog.

Edit: Main gun has been installed.


Photo on clicking the link says ICGS Rajshree1

Edited Later: do you mean the IN ship behind it under construction


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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2012 16:35 
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Aditya_V wrote:
sombhat wrote:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ycFOO1IGef4/TzuDdXexURI/AAAAAAAAIuA/OOah43LdHz0/s1600/ICGS_Rajshree1.JPG

Is that INS Kamorta (P28) in the background? Looks like a lot of work still left, no radar/weapons installed yet?

Source: Chhindits blog.

Edit: Main gun has been installed.


Photo on clicking the link says ICGS Rajshree1

Edited Later: do you mean the IN ship behind it under construction


Yes sir, that's why the word "background".


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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2012 17:02 
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Raytheon delivers APY-10 surveillance radar for Indian Naval P-81 aircraft


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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2012 17:24 
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The Kamorta lookls great! Tx for pic.

The Scorpene sized subs,including German U-boats are just too small for integrating BMos.Despite size,pl. remember that subsonic anti-ship missiles are passe.Both Europe and the US are now frantically trying to develop their own supersonic anti-ship missiles,includng sub-launched versions.Therefore why should India which has a head start over these other nations dump its advantage? Even OZ has realised that a large conventional sub,larger than the Collins class, with AIP is required for its purposes.

Secondly,just examine the cost of an N-sub as against a conventional sub.The USN after exercising for over a year with a Swedish sub,has realised its virtues.It is only because US subs have a global operational area,that nuclear power is an absolute requirement,though it my reconsider its policy and build conventional subs as well if need be.

Furthermore,you can't have just one type of sub expecting it to be a "jack of all trades" it will become a "master of none".Examine the IAF which has opted for a high,med. and low mix of fighters and multi-role aircraft.Our surface warships too come in dfif. sizes,displacements and capabilities too.Smaller,stealthier subs are better for the littorals,but come with reduced firepower.There is absolutekly nothing wrong in having different designs for subs too,based upon their operational role,though one must concede that the IN requires a sizeable number of SSGNs for its gobal operations,apart from escorting/protecting its SSBNs if need be.A cost-effective balance of types of subs required must be worked out.


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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2012 19:05 
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Austin wrote:
SNaik wrote:
This article (in Russian, unfortunately) published in 2006, was prepared by Rubin design bureau and St.Peterburg Institute of Technology. It describes the concept and technicalities of the onboard reforming of diesel fuel into hydrogen for further in fuel cells of AIP. The drawings and graphs are quite self-explanatory.

http://isjaee.hydrogen.ru/pdf/11_06_Chentsov.pdf


Thanks for the link , Translating using google for any technical jargon in russian is a lost cause.

But the concept is very sound and with a single stone it kills two bird , Hydrogen-Oxygen Fuel cell is the most effecient form of AIP till date so it takes care of the efficiency part without compromising with stuff like MESMA AIP which are safe but not so efficient and in conventional submarine every watt of power counts , secondly it makes the processes safe by generating using same fuel as diesel and by not storing hydrogen separately which is not exactly you might want to carry in a sub and the expensive shore based infra to keep it 99 % purity level.

Any update on the Tea Kettle reactor that they were testing ? Thats one good area to invest for much better submerged endurance for conventional subs.


How is it different form MESMA ?


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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2012 19:16 
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The way the situation is around us, the 30(24 conv+ the nukes) planned subs are just not going to be enough(though goodness knows when we will see that no in service with the IN). The IN needs a mix of at least 50 subs to take care of all the threats around us.


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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2012 19:44 
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50 subs or even 25 in a reasonable timeframe means we need 3 production lines whether in india or abroad in parallel. subs are very long lead items. perhaps once we decide on what we want, can setup 2 lines in india and ask the foreign builder to run his own line also.


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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2012 21:52 
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Snehashis wrote:
It has unique anchor placement.
Most ships have two anchors - one on either side. This design saves weight. Good design choice.


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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2012 21:59 
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Kersi D wrote:
How is it different form MESMA ?


Ethanol and Oxygen , reportedly good on Safety and Power ,low on Efficiency and Discretion compared to all the other AIP available.

I read some years back IN did its own study on AIP and recommended Fuel Cell using Hydrogen/Oxygen as its preferred AIP


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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2012 22:30 
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Is there no one working on 100KW to 1MW nuclear battery designs out there ?

They would make so much more sense than any AIP system.


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 23:10 
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Snehashis wrote:
Thats Kamorta. It has unique anchor placement.


There are TWO anchors on the Kamorta Class ASW Corvettes. It's not just one in the top of the bow and there is another one the other side of the ship. Why this unconventional design...that I donno.


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 04:31 
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George J wrote:
Snehashis wrote:
Thats Kamorta. It has unique anchor placement.


There are TWO anchors on the Kamorta Class ASW Corvettes. It's not just one in the top of the bow and there is another one the other side of the ship. Why this unconventional design...that I donno.



http://idp.justthe80.com/naval-projects ... orta02.jpg


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 07:37 
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UAV crashes at Visakhapatnam
Quote:
NEW DELHI: A naval spy drone, a Searcher-II of Israeli-origin, crashed into a hill while returning from a surveillance sortie during an exercise at Visakhapatnam on Thursday afternoon. "There were no casualties or damage on the ground. A Board of Inquiry has been ordered to ascertain the exact reason behind the crash,'' said an officer.

With UAVs emerging as a modern force-multiplier in modern-day warfare, Indian armed forces have inducted well over 100 drones, both for their snooping as well as targeting capabilities, since the 1999 Kargil conflict.

Compared to the many more inductions in the Army and the IAF, the Navy currently has eight Searcher-II and four Herons, which are being used for maritime surveillance up to 200 nautical miles, with another two Herons being ordered from Israel. The armed forces have also inducted some Israeli Harpy and Harop `killer' UAVs, which are capable of loitering over targets before they explode into them.


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 14:20 
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From Rediff:
Navy Ensign
by Desi Bhai (View MyPage) on Feb 09, 2012 11:36 PM | Hide replies

Why does the naval ensign of India seem to depict itself as a subjugate of the British Raj?

I have also the same question. Why do we have a white flag with two red lines - one horizontal and one vertical. I know the top left square shows the Indian flag.

I am sure that a white flag with two red lines - one horizontal and one vertical has something to do with either British or some European country.

I thought we achieved independence from Britain in 1947!

IMO its a shame that we continue with this naval ensign. We must have our own naval ensign.

I suggest we have a sky blue flag with a gold Surya in the middle.


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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2012 02:17 
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^^ I missed the other anchor positioned offset.

Positioning the anchor in the bow instead of the side has least chances of anchor/chain contact with the hull. Most probably lesson learnt from the following incident http://www.indianexpress.com/news/warsh ... st/13545/0
Quote:
In May this year, stealth frigate INS Talwar accidentally dropped its anchor on its own anti-submarine sonardome and had to be rushed for repairs to revive its anti-sub capabilities.


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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2012 02:27 
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Shankaraa wrote:
From Rediff: Navy Ensign by Desi Bhai (View MyPage) on Feb 09, 2012 11:36 PM | Hide replies
Why does the naval ensign of India seem to depict itself as a subjugate of the British Raj? I have also the same question. Why do we have a white flag with two red lines - one horizontal and one vertical. I know the top left square shows the Indian flag. I am sure that a white flag with two red lines - one horizontal and one vertical has something to do with either British or some European country. I thought we achieved independence from Britain in 1947! IMO its a shame that we continue with this naval ensign. We must have our own naval ensign. I suggest we have a sky blue flag with a gold Surya in the middle.
Is this your view or someone else's view?

It is not something anyone who hasn't served under that ensign would understand, despite that I will an attempt to explain.

The red cross is Saint George's cross. And this ensign is continuing the cherished legacy of Indian Navy for 500 years of gallant actions across Middle East to China.

Among many things, it represents discipline and professionalism. Especially important since all indigenous naval or military efforts before this service was established lacked discipline and professionalism, that contributed greatly to their losing. Especially since self discipline is so lacking in public and private life today.

The Indian Navy descended from a professional service and not some Maharaja's or nawab's service.

The Indian Navy would rather honour its heritage than spare the scantest thought or slightest regard for your opinion (or someone else's opinion that you are posting).

You love mythology and a oversized smiley with eyes and mustache representing a hydrogen ball. The Indian Navy loves its history.

Also note Indian and Pakistani civil ensign follows the traditional pattern. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_ensign

Since everyone can express opinions, here is mine. IMO, the suggested flag is more appropriate for people whose personality make it impossible for them to ever have wives/husbands/partners, and hold anti Valentine's day protests flying that flag with mustache.


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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2012 05:09 
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I have a simple pooch..

Can the life of the Viraat be extended beyond 2018, and can it embark the new Mig29s?

It used to have a steam catapult, arrester cables, and handled planes comparable in height, weight and wingspan - to the Mig 29 in its original Avatar as the Centaur..


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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2012 10:51 
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Tsarkar,also remember the disastrous attempt to change the ensigna few years ago,when a new flag of red and blue was substituted.The IN immediately found out that the white,,on the old ensign served a very useful purpose,easy identification of an IN warship,which was found difficult with the new design.It therefore sensibly went back to the old ensign,which as you have also pointed out is an historic one,which we used after Independence to good measure in '71 tanning the backsides of the Pakis!.


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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2012 11:26 
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tsarkar wrote:
Shankaraa wrote:
From Rediff: Navy Ensign by Desi Bhai (View MyPage) on Feb 09, 2012 11:36 PM | Hide replies
Why does the naval ensign of India seem to depict itself as a subjugate of the British Raj? I have also the same question. Why do we have a white flag with two red lines - one horizontal and one vertical. I know the top left square shows the Indian flag. I am sure that a white flag with two red lines - one horizontal and one vertical has something to do with either British or some European country. I thought we achieved independence from Britain in 1947! IMO its a shame that we continue with this naval ensign. We must have our own naval ensign. I suggest we have a sky blue flag with a gold Surya in the middle.
Is this your view or someone else's view?

It is not something anyone who hasn't served under that ensign would understand, despite that I will an attempt to explain.

The red cross is Saint George's cross. And this ensign is continuing the cherished legacy of Indian Navy for 500 years of gallant actions across Middle East to China.

Among many things, it represents discipline and professionalism. Especially important since all indigenous naval or military efforts before this service was established lacked discipline and professionalism, that contributed greatly to their losing. Especially since self discipline is so lacking in public and private life today.

The Indian Navy descended from a professional service and not some Maharaja's or nawab's service.

The Indian Navy would rather honour its heritage than spare the scantest thought or slightest regard for your opinion (or someone else's opinion that you are posting).

You love mythology and a oversized smiley with eyes and mustache representing a hydrogen ball. The Indian Navy loves its history.

Also note Indian and Pakistani civil ensign follows the traditional pattern. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_ensign

Since everyone can express opinions, here is mine. IMO, the suggested flag is more appropriate for people whose personality make it impossible for them to ever have wives/husbands/partners, and hold anti Valentine's day protests flying that flag with mustache.



Not able to understand if you are being sarcastic or being straight-forward. Dont have that much pisko ability. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2012 15:19 
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Another contender coming. Meet U-216.
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... iew&id=264


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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2012 15:42 
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^^^ Looks like one big conventional sub with an endurance of 80 days @ 4000T but hopefully IN is not the first to try it and take care of debugging the problem , better done by host navy or some other navy.


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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2012 16:27 
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its likely this design is in response to a quiet expression of interest from india and australia who are both looking for the next gen SSK.


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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2012 17:05 
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Yes, Philip, the ensign was redesigned to a blue field by MoD under BJP led NDA in 2001 as described here http://indiannavy.nic.in/flag.htm

In less than 3 years, it was repealed because the blue field was not distinguishable at sea. Plus IN officers and men wanted their tradition back
http://www.financialexpress.com/news/in ... nt/101914/
http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/apr/23navy.htm

Here is INS Rana charging to battle at 30 knots flying the white ensign as its battle ensign. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... bar_07.jpg

Admiral Jayant Nadkarni on tradition http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/aug/08nad.htm
Quote:
At the Battle of Crete when the British Army ashore was being evacuated, Admiral Cunningham's fleet was losing many ships due to German air attacks. When one of his staff officers timidly suggested withdrawing from the scene, the admiral fixed him with a cold look. 'It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition. Navy must not let the Army down.'

A few pages back in this thread, the story of INS Kukhri, Captain Mulla and Lt V K Jain is described. Their tradition will be remembered for 300 years

Hyprocrite politicians like Uddhav & Raj Thackeray talk about Marathi Asmita but send their children to "English Medium" Bombay Scottish School, that has not only retained Bombay in its name, but also honours a Scottish affiliation. Shouldn't Uddhav & Raj Thackeray send their children to "Marathi Medium" municipality schools? Such rascals with double standards mislead people and are the worst enemy of the Marathi speaking people and the Indian nation.

SNaik wrote:
Meet U-216.
Just what we needed


Last edited by tsarkar on 18 Feb 2012 17:55, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2012 17:33 
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some details from secretprojects.co.uk forum: apparently already proposed to australia.

Typ 216 class
89, 00 meters long
Speed: >20kn
8, 10 meters in diameter
3.000t Deplacement
2 Decks, 10 cabins with up to 6 bunks
80 days at sea
Extra space for Special Forces, divers, teaching staff, Engineers
Crew: 33
The submarine has a “Vertical Multi-Purpose Lock” for UUV’s. mines, cruise missiles, navy divers and Special forces or as extra space for cargo or fuel. The type U216 can also be fitted with the IDAS system and the TRIPLE-M/MURAENA system.
Source: German military & defense magazine "Strategie und Technik", November 2011


Edit:
Quote
According to the Russian military-industrial complex site on November 1 report, recently published “Jane’s Navy World” published an article, Horvath, Germany – German Shipbuilding Co., Ltd. (HDW) is developing a new generation of 216 conventional submarines. Information about the new submarine is the first time in September of this year out of the disclosure.experts say, HDW 216 submarine’s development objective is to participate in the Australian Department of Defense under the SEA 1000 program activities at the target. According to the Australian government’s plan, as in 2025 the Navy purchased its 12 large conventional submarines, of which six will be used to replace the existing fleet of old-fashioned ‘Collins’ submarines. Australian Navy’s new submarine made a very high performance requirements, with special emphasis on the new boat should have the waters away from the base of the ability to perform combat missions. Analysts pointed out that the Australian military requirements implies a new submarine base should be able to travel to China from Australian waters operational requirements. Jane’s experts pointed out that 216-type submarines, including a key component of the joint, including methanol fuel cell power plant. Only depend on the fuel cell, the new submarines will be able to continue sailing four weeks underwater with four speed or road 2400 sea miles. In diesel engines, the submarine will be able to continue sailing speed of 10 knots 10,400 sea miles. 216 submarine holding force up to 80 days. The lithium-ion polymer battery can further enhance the submarine’s speed and endurance. In order to lithium batteries, the German side may use a new type of high-power diesel generators. The U216 conventional submarines using double-shell design, full load displacement of about 4,000 tons, the hull length 89 m, maximum diameter of 8.1 meters. Members of the rated load of the boat 33, in addition, the boat also set aside space for the special unit. Taking into account may be used to perform other transport tasks, 216 submarines also made available a special compartment for the storage of materials and equipment.
216 submarine of the main weapons, including six 533 mm torpedo tubes (equipped with 18 fast loading of the torpedoes, can be used to launch anti-ship missiles or laying mines) and a diameter of 2.5 m multi-purpose vertical launch system (capable of firing cruise missiles). In addition, the rear of the boat can also carry a miniature underwater SDV conveyor.

and use Chrome to view the translation in MarineForum the german navy magazine which has the full article and drawings. looks like space for atleast 10 SLCM/ASM

http://www.marineforum.info/html/u216.html


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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2012 17:49 
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the vertical chamber behind the sail is multipurpose and can be used to hold marcos gear, mine launcher and probably 5-6 Harpoon sized ASM though longer but slim weapons like nirbhay should also work. it does not look sized for brahmos type huge missiles.

other than that this thing ticks all the checkboxes we have been discussing ... incl the siemens li-ion fuel cells, sophisticated optronic masts, all manner of silencing, crew comforts, small crew of 33 + marcos on a 3-watch system ....


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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2012 19:56 
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Just the type of long range ocean going sub with VL capability, that the IN needs :)


Last edited by Will on 18 Feb 2012 21:37, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2012 20:40 
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whatever suits Aus will suit us just fine. HDW played a good hand here attempting to kill 2 birds with one stone.

Rus has no design in this category unless Rubin is about to unveil one worked on in secret

Navantia/DCN S80 is a lot smaller....if they are not working on a S90 proposal they are behind.


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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2012 20:45 
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the gym and cinema hall, plus 2 level bunking instead of 3 level, spacious wardrooms is definitely SSBN style - designed for long missions of 80-90 days.

Ohio SSBN have a nice gym with treadmills isolated from floor using hydraulic jacks per a natgeo/disc pgm they showed. probably special quiet motors to drive the belt as well.

a 6-pack of VL SM-40 Exocet with 200km range or 6xNirbhay SLCM is just what the doc ordered for this puppy.


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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2012 22:20 
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tsarkar wrote:
The red cross is Saint George's cross. And this ensign is continuing the cherished legacy of Indian Navy for 500 years of gallant actions across Middle East to China.

Sir you mean to say the Indian Navy had the Saint George's cross on it's flag even before the British arrived ?


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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012 00:27 
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negi wrote:
tsarkar wrote:
The red cross is Saint George's cross. And this ensign is continuing the cherished legacy of Indian Navy for 500 years of gallant actions across Middle East to China.
Sir you mean to say the Indian Navy had the Saint George's cross on it's flag even before the British arrived ?
Correction. 400 years.

The original was the Honourable East India Company's Marine formed 1612. The manpower consisted of British officered European mercenaries, Marathas, Kolis, Sidis, and others drawn from local seafaring communities. It operated locally built Ghurabs. From its inception, it protected Indian rivers carrying manufactured goods (rivers were the expressways of that era), coastal commerce, and EIC factories. It was tasked to patrol the ME within a few years of its inception.

You may refer to many published histories, for details on operations in those days and later across ME and East Asia. Wadia built teak ships fought in Arctic waters.

At one point, it was known as Bombay Marine. Curiously, the descendent of Bombay Marine is the Mumbai police. Its uniform was Navy Blue until few decades back (you may see it in old movies). The cap is still navy blue despite the rest of the uniform being Khaki.

The George Cross does not represent any affiliation or servitude to British or Europeans. It represents affiliation to a certain methodology, professionalism and qualities like discipline, order, etc.

Just like all parents even 60+ years after independence like to send their children to “English Medium” school rather than “Marathi/Kannada/Bengali/Hindi” medium schools. Do they send their children to become slaves of Englishmen at “English Medium” schools? No. Do the children become slaves? No. The aspiration/affiliation for “English Medium” comes from the education methodology, professionalism and quality.

The entire swadeshi brigade sends their children to “English Medium” schools. Before anyone preaches changing the Indian Navy affiliation, I would ask them to send their children to a Gurukul/Madrassa where shlokas/couplets are chanted and not much maths and science is taught. They very well know their children’s careers and hence rest of the life would be bleak if all they learnt was chanting.

Similarly, in the Ancient Battles thread, you’ll find examples of indiscipline, feudalism, religious fracture plaguing local forces.

Indian forces won at Arabia, Persia, ME all the way to China. The discipline led to increased self confidence. The George Cross represents the Indian Navy’s affiliation to those values.

Just like students studying at Bombay Scottish school don’t become Scottish slaves. The “Scottish” represents affiliation to certain educational values.


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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012 04:03 
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TSarkar you seem to have gone on complete defensive :)

I simply asked a question . You seem to have taken the point about IN using a British (ok technically a foreign) ensign personally.

Btw Indians send their kids to English medium schools out of NECESSITY for that is the language most of the civilized world communicates in and hence it is an automatic choice.

For IN to use ensign similar to RN's one (obviously replacing the union jack on top right with Indian flag) is not something which is born out of necessity (in the sense it does not in anyway affect/hamper it's mandate or operations) now whether it should be changed or not is another topic which I do not wish to get into . Btw even the British national flag or the union jack is essentially a combination of St. George's cross and St. Andrew's cross (that is how you get the blue and white background). Your argument that St. George's cross has this 400+ years long history associated with it is well taken and may will have a sentimental value for those who served with the RIN but whether it should continue after independence is imho debatable ; otherwise one can claim using similar logic that why have a 'Tiranga; might as well use the Union Jack (which is nothing but St. George's cross + St. Andrew's Cross) as our national flag for that too has several hundred years of cherished history ?

Btw as far as IN and it's cherished history is concerned does it only go back to 1612 ?


Last edited by negi on 19 Feb 2012 04:15, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012 04:13 
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tsarkar wrote:
Indian forces won at Arabia, Persia, ME all the way to China. The discipline led to increased self confidence. The George Cross represents the Indian Navy’s affiliation to those values.


Did the British allow Indians to reach the highest levels in the Navy? Does the George Cross also represent those values?


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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012 06:36 
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tsarkar wrote:
The George Cross does not represent any affiliation or servitude to British or Europeans. It represents affiliation to a certain methodology, professionalism and qualities like discipline, order, etc.

So what? And it seems you have such faith in the professionalism of George cross over Dharma chakra, which is surprising. And Having an Indian symbol remove those qualities or is it going to enforce the Indian qualities? I do feel that the symbol represents servitude even though no Indian solider want to be one.
tsarkar wrote:
Just like all parents even 60+ years after independence like to send their children to “English Medium” school rather than “Marathi/Kannada/Bengali/Hindi” medium schools. Do they send their children to become slaves of Englishmen at “English Medium” schools? No. Do the children become slaves? No. The aspiration/affiliation for “English Medium” comes from the education methodology, professionalism and quality.

Your comparison is totally akward. English Medium is a way to learn English. The schools of tomorrow will provide students with the option to study any foreign language they may like along with their mothertongue. That never means we are becoming slaves. But Indian children will learn languages from Arabic to Zulu along with science and maths after starting the morning with Vande Mataram and saluting the Indian flag.
tsarkar wrote:
The entire swadeshi brigade sends their children to “English Medium” schools. Before anyone preaches changing the Indian Navy affiliation, I would ask them to send their children to a Gurukul/Madrassa where shlokas/couplets are chanted and not much maths and science is taught. They very well know their children’s careers and hence rest of the life would be bleak if all they learnt was chanting.

Don't compare Madrass with Gurukul. They are not the same. And by the way i forget to remember that Aryabhatta went to an English school. Also the Japanese and others attend English schools and their technological superiority and discipline come from that. :rotfl:
tsarkar wrote:
Similarly, in the Ancient Battles thread, you’ll find examples of indiscipline, feudalism, religious fracture plaguing local forces. Indian forces won at Arabia, Persia, ME all the way to China. The discipline led to increased self confidence. The George Cross represents the Indian Navy’s affiliation to those values.

Those kinds of things do happen due to lack of Dharma within the leaders at that time. Now brutality can win you wars. But where is your Britain today? :twisted:
tsarkar wrote:
Just like students studying at Bombay Scottish school don’t become Scottish slaves. The “Scottish” represents affiliation to certain educational values.

What are those educational values? Values meant to view India and anything Indian as bad? I do feel Mumbai Indian School name with better teaching will be fear superior in all ways.


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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012 06:41 
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Indian Express dated September 2006 wrote:
............In May this year, stealth frigate INS Talwar accidentally dropped its anchor on its own anti-submarine sonardome and had to be rushed for repairs to revive its anti-sub capabilities.


If Talwar dropped anchor in May, then its May 2006.

According to the Project 28 page on BR/Navy. Plate cutting on the lead ship of the Kamorta class began in August 2005.

So either the Indian Navy has a time machine and/or it changes designs on the fly or ...........


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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012 10:59 
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George J wrote:
According to the Project 28 page on BR/Navy. Plate cutting on the lead ship of the Kamorta class began in August 2005.
How can you possibly conclude that this design feature was add-on and not a part of the original design? FWIW, P28 has a bulbous bow http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Imag ... ect28b.jpg and the anchor position could possibly have been originally designed at the bow.

George J wrote:
So either the Indian Navy has a time machine
Not that I am aware of. If you have any additional information on this, do illuminate us.

George J wrote:
it changes designs on the fly
Yes, it does, if the project timeline isn’t impacted and the cost of change in terms of money and material isn’t significant. Or if the change is vital enough to implement irrespective of the time, material or cost impact.

No two ships, even from the same class, are identical. It is just that the differences aren't perceptible.

For example, Brahmaputra was launched with RAWS-3 radar in 2000 while the Beas was launched with Elta 2238. The below above and below deck equipment for both systems was different, and the original structural design to accommodate the former was revised for the latter. The revisions were later carried out for the earlier ships. Similarly, newer EW equipment also led to changes for EMC/EMI compatibility.


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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012 11:21 
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chackojoseph wrote:


Does both Indian and US versions rely on conventional radars as opposed to AESA?


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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012 11:29 
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afaik there is no sea search airborne aesa radar that the moment.
maybe it doesnt matter much for sea search because ships move very slow relative to aircraft targets. aesa is always on expensive side.


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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012 12:15 
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negi wrote:
TSarkar you seem to have gone on complete defensive :)
Yes, for something dear to the heart :) Naam, Namak and Nishan

negi wrote:
Btw Indians send their kids to English medium schools out of NECESSITY for that is the language most of the civilized world communicates in and hence it is an automatic choice.
Exactly, just like the English Education Methodology empowers Indian kids to better face the world and go about their “business & operations”, similarly Royal Navy Professionalism, Values, Qualities, etc, if I may call it Military Organization Methodology similarly empowered Indian Navy to better face the world and go about their “business & operations”.

Again, its respect & honour for the “methodology” and values, not for the geography, ethnicity or religion.

negi wrote:
Btw as far as IN and it's cherished history is concerned does it only go back to 1612 ?
Yes my friend, since there was sore lack of ethos before that. Let me explain by the following example.

Kanhoji Angre built a strong Navy, but passed the leadership to his sons. They fought for power. The loser son sought Peshwa’s help who sought British help and, as a consequence, Kanhoji Angre’s Navy was shattered in a few years.So Kanhoji Angre’s Navy, despite its other sterling qualities, for the flaw of nepotism, cannot be the guiding light for the Indian Navy.

Royal Navy association, after 1612, introduced the concept of meritocracy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_tact ... ge_of_Sail
Quote:
The Royal Navy by contrast was well served by many distinguished commanders of middle-class origin, such as Horatio Nelson (son of a parson), Jervis (son of a solicitor) or Collingwood (son of a butcher) as well as by aristocrats who proved themselves at sea such as Thomas Cochrane and even members of the working-class, such as John Benbow.


So, 1612 and White Ensign respects and honours, among another qualities, meritocracy. Show me, forum members, examples of any Indian military leader who promoted meritocracy over nepotism.

Did Guru Drona promote meritocracy by respecting Eklavya’s capabilities over the royal progeny? Did Shri Krishna promote meritocracy by respecting Karna’s capabilities over the rest of the Pandavas? I would rather respect and honour the White Ensign for establishing meritocracy in the Indian military organization than Guru Drona or even Shri Krishna.


abhishek_sharma wrote:
Did the British allow Indians to reach the highest levels in the Navy?
Yes, my friend, they did allow military leadership to Indians. While standard military leadership might have been denied earlier for political reasons, the British established a parallel leadership structure via Non Commissioned Officers, who provided equal leadership to the military organization. Every Ship or Division/Brigade/Battalion/Company commander respects NCOs who equally led men to battle. Senior NCO’s were also paid well.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... ilots.html
Quote:
IAF Squadron Commander's conference in 1944. Standing (L to R): Flt. Lt. Kipps, Wg. Cdr. Fish, Sqn. Ldr. Arjan Singh, Sqn. Ldr. Upton, Sqn. Ldr. Haider, Gp. Capt. HJC Proud, Sqn. Ldr. Prithpal Singh, Wg. Cdr. Subroto Mukherjee, Sqn. Ldr. Majithia, Sqn. Ldr. Niranjan Prasad and Wg. Cdr. Coot Robinson. Sitting (L to R): 'Jumbo' Majumdar, Mehar Singh and Hem Chaudhuri.
I dont find any of these honourable warriors and commanders complaining about racial discrimination.

Now tell me, Abhishek, which Maharaja/Sultan allowed non family/royalty members to reach the highest levels in the Navy?

uddu wrote:
So what? And it seems you have such faith in the professionalism of George cross over Dharma chakra, which is surprising.
Yes, my friend, the Dharma Chakra or any similar symbol does not adequately represent the transformation in the military organization from 1612. 1612 was a turning point in the military organization.

uddu wrote:
I do feel that the symbol represents servitude even though no Indian solider want to be one.
Those who serve under the ensign do not share your feelings.

uddu wrote:
Your comparison is totally akward. English Medium is a way to learn English.
I am sorry, you are grossly mistaken, English can be taught as a subject in a Madrassa. Parents can teach children English using Rapidex English Speaking Course. English Medium is an education system wherein diverse subjects, including science, mathematics, social sciences, and language is taught.

uddu wrote:
Don't compare Madrass with Gurukul. They are not the same.
How is the learning methodology of a Hindu Gurukul different than that of a Christian Monastery, Buddhist Vihara or Islamic Madrassa?

The “English Medium” learning methodology is ethnicity or religion agnostic. Schools are warmly adopted by all Indians instead of Gurukul, Monastery, Vihara or Madrassa because of the methodology, and not ethnicity or religiosity. All humans naturally adopt best practices very quickly. Unlike those who think polio drops is a conspiracy to steal virility :)

uddu wrote:
And by the way i forget to remember that Aryabhatta went to an English school.
The science of statistics will tell you that Aryabhatta was an “outlier”. In simple terms, one or even ten Aryabhatta’s don’t reflect the general level of knowledge or education of the entire population. What did Aryabhatta do to widely disseminate his knowledge? Not much, even if he wished to. Even today, those parts of India without access to modern education methodology are woefully uneducated and illiterate.

Education & Knowledge was used for power and denied to the masses across the world. The Renaissance changed that by empowering masses with Education and Knowledge. Technological advances like printing press further helped. Let us not discredit the benefit of European Renaissance to mankind just because it was European, despite the same Europeans propagating very evil colonialism.

uddu wrote:
Also the Japanese and others attend English schools and their technological superiority and discipline come from that.
Yes, the samurais were killing each other like Indian feudal lords until the Meiji_Restoration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... estoration
Quote:
The Tokugawa system was abolished, the military was modernized, and numerous Western institutions were adopted–including a Western legal system and quasi-parliamentary constitutional government as outlined in the Meiji Constitution. This constitution was modeled on the constitution of the German Empire.


Last edited by tsarkar on 19 Feb 2012 23:07, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012 13:11 
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The English are beginning to debate if their "education methodology" is "alienating" children. Do they deserve kudos for being the first to point out in the Queen's English that their methodology is flawed?


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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012 16:41 
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The acquisition of the Akula has started a debate in Pak on its "options" available to counter the IN.Nothing less than nuclear powered subs are the answer according to some "think tanks"!

Enjoy this great piece of revisionist history in full,where Pak maintains the edge in the Arabian Sea and INS Vikrant was a liability to the IN in '65 and '71! The ambitions of the TSP however must be factored in by our defence planners as from Pak's track record of "eating grass " if need be to acquire nuclear weapons,we may see the PRC come to the rescue of the PN yet again if only to maintain the PN's "advantage" in the Arabian Sea!

http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=140804

Xcpt:
Quote:
The major shift has come in her naval fleet where it has acquired nuclear submarines to extend its reach and dominance not only over the region but to some extent in the global context. India is joining the Pacific Club of the US, UK, Australia and other NATO members to contain China. Only the time would tell weather India remains a committed member of the pacific club or not but certainly through this club it will acquire what it needs to dominate the region and work on its expansionist agenda – Hindutwa Manifesto. The power dominating the Indian Ocean would dominate the world is an established fact, under this doctrine, over the past some years, Indian navy is in the process of modernization and expansion to dominate Indian Ocean. To this end, its acquisition of aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines from Russia has given her a quantum leap. Now it’s a threat to the countries of the region; immediate threat is posed to Pakistan the only country that can stand up to Indian challenges. In the 60s, India had only one aircraft carrier, Vikrant that was an old vintage that could not pose any threat to Pakistan both in 1965 and 1971 wars; instead it was a liability for the Indian navy to hide and protect it from a smaller but far more aggressive Pakistan navy. In these wars, Pakistan Navy was the only navy in the region that had submarine punch. Now with the new developments, Pakistan Navy is fighting within her resources to maintain her edge in the Arabian Sea which she has maintained for decades. After the collapse of Soviet Union, India acquired INS Vikramaditya that is expected to join sometimes this year. Indian navy is set to decommission INS Viraat after the induction of the first domestically built Vikrant class aircraft carrier. Besides acquisition of the aircraft carriers, Indian navy has also acquired nuclear powered submarines; the first of Akula II Class has already been handed over to the Indian Navy to augment its fleet of 14 diesel electric powered submarines (4 Shishumar and 10 Sindhugosh class submarines) besides a dozen midgets known as chariots.


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