Discussion on Indian Special Forces

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Aditya G
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Aditya G »

You are welcome, Surya. What struck me most about the article is the reference to 202 Squadron as a full fledged Army aviation unit, and not just collection of 'R&O Flights' dispersed across number of bases, like we have had till now.
Surya wrote:thanks Aditya
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rohitvats »

Aditya G wrote:You are welcome, Surya. What struck me most about the article is the reference to 202 Squadron as a full fledged Army aviation unit, and not just collection of 'R&O Flights' dispersed across number of bases, like we have had till now.
Surya wrote:thanks Aditya
AFAIK, we always had R&O Squadrons with each Corps having one squadron. Each Squadron is made of 3 R&O flights.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Dmurphy »

Desi Night Stalkers :D Nice!
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

hopefully the day will come when the unlucky (for SF) haphruda forests can be cleared without any casualties if any pigs get in.

Wonder if this was in all place before would Major mohit Sharmas SF team had better luck. :(
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Aditya G »

http://blogs.intoday.in/index.php?optio ... ml&blogs=2
The helicopter shuddered as a sudden gust of wind threatened to slam it against the sheer rock face. The pilots, both young officers of the Indian Air Force, were trying to land at a small helipad carved out of the jagged peaks at 13,000 feet in north Kashmir.

With the rotors still whirring, one of the pilots leaned back and opened the door signalling for us - my cameraman and I - to jump out and run straight towards the officers waiting for us. Do not run towards the rear - the tail rotor is almost invisible, he had cautioned earlier. We jumped out as a gust of icy wind almost took my breath away.

But this was an exclusive we were not going to miss. Access to the 'conflict zone', in north Kashmir. Intelligence agencies had warned about the 'mass infiltration'. Early warning posts were talking about the increased movement or hulchul in military parlance across the Line of Control. Sources were talking about terrorists having assembled across the Line of Control, north of Pir Panjal planning section and platoon level (groups between 10 and 30) infiltration.

And the second fortnight of March had been terrible. Two major infiltrations in Gurez and Drangyari Kupwara areas. What was worse, one officer Major Mohit Sharma and seven other ranks of the elite one Para special forces had been killed in the encounter with terrorists.

Not just any soldiers. These were special forces. And that too 1 Para. Considered the Army Commander's own. Our aim was to show to our viewers the area where the operations were taking place. Also to see, how the terrorists had infiltrated and that too in such large numbers - 120 in all. The army, however, says only 31 were combatants, the rest porters and guides.

On the army's grid map Sadhna pass did not look all that menacing nor did the entire Shamsabari range. But on ground this was as bad if not worse than Kargil, where I had covered the conflict in 1999.

Now the army is well-deployed here in north Kashmir. But like in Kargil, it were the nullahs and passes where ambushes were laid, traditional infiltration routes guarded and patrolled. The terrorists used the treacherous high altitude avalanche prone mountains to infiltrate.

Caught off guard again? Initially yes! 120 men cannot sneak across the Line of Control undetected. Somewhere the systems failed completely. Foot patrolling, anti-infiltration obstacle system (the 12-feet high fence was completely buried in snow), sensors, helicopter reconnaissance all failed. But sources say there was intelligence available and ambushes were laid. So what happened?

Apparently, the Lashkar-e-Taiba guide sent by Abu Saad, the Rajwar Lashkar commander to get the new group and reinforcements lost his way. This was a blessing in disguise for the terrorists. They evaded the army's elaborate trap. But the army tracked them. At Drangyari 'contact' happened just before dawn. The army 'let them have it'. But under the cover of darkness, the group split and melted. This was on March 20. The same night, special force commandoes including the team led by Major Mohit Sharma of the 1 Para SF was helidropped 'behind enemy lines'.

But unknown to the army, the terrorists were watching the entire helidrop operations. The brave major and his team were hunting the terrorists. The terrorists had the advantage of height. They were well hidden behind rocks. Suddenly the hunter was the hunted. The brave major and his team are learnt to have put up a fierce firefight. But the terrorists had the advantage of height, element of surprise and cover.


The next morning over a dozen army teams fanned out. They hunted the terrorists, killing 25 in all, over the next 10 days. Six terrorists were killed in an avalanche but so were eight soldiers.

The recoveries were huge - 13,000 rounds of AK ammunition, one RPG, 25 AK-47 rifles, hundreds of grenades, 32 kgs of explosives. The terrorists were extremely 'well-kitted' and trained to fight and survive in high altitudes. Multi-layered high altitude clothing, snow boots, detailed six grid maps, GPS, satellite phones, radio sets...the works. All pointing towards the direct involvement of the Pakistani security forces.

But there are very important lessons here for the army. While it is good, troops are now helidropped to deal with terrorists at high altitudes (imagine climbing for 9 hours at 12,000 feet and then fighting) it has to be back to the basics. High altitude jungle warfare training, tracking and evasive tactics - the basics need to be second nature. We cannot afford to lose even a single soldier in this war against terror. We cannot afford to be trapped in terror's Chakra Vyuh.

The army also needs to ensure better back up. Heliborne fire power is a must. It is nobody's point that the army is not looking after its soldiers. But the army needs to do much more. The Generals are Generals because they are now meant to fight battles in South Block and ensure the fighting force gets the best back up money can buy.

It is a war out there. It will only get worse as the snow melts. For the army it is hunting season. But the hunter must not become the hunted. EVER!

May 13, 2009 Posted by Gaurav C. Sawant
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rohitvats »

^^^Thanks.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

^^The true account of what happened during Major Sharma and his team's encounter with the terrorists (actually SSG in mufti) never came out in the public. Were there any survivors from his team?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rohitvats »

^^^Is the SSG part a lungar gup or based on some concrete assumptions?Thanks.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Aditya G »

Dear Rohit, Surya

What is an Assault Team in our Para SF setup? eg: Maj Mohit Sharma was part of the "B Assault Team" that day.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Rahul M »

approx section strength IIRC. correct me if I'm wrong, gents.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by sum »

The next morning over a dozen army teams fanned out. They hunted the terrorists, killing 25 in all, over the next 10 days. Six terrorists were killed in an avalanche but so were eight soldiers.
So we lost a total of 16 SF folks, 8 ( of Major Sharma+ his team) and another 8 SF in avalanche?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

no

we lost the 8 sF soldiers
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by KrishnaK »

<quote>While it is good, troops are now helidropped to deal with terrorists at high altitudes (imagine climbing for 9 hours at 12,000 feet and then fighting) it has to be back to the basics. High altitude jungle warfare training, tracking and evasive tactics - the basics need to be second nature.</q>

I can't help thinking that that statement implies tactics used could've been better ? Can the gurus explain ?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

unless Gaurav meant in some general sense or it got warped in some editorial pressure - it defintely does not mean Major mohit sharma and his men lacked something other than luck.

my friend had been his senior and though shaken said his boys did him proud, fighting hard against odds with the terrain against them.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Singha »

a russian spetsnaz unit also got destroyed in chechnya once. I think they lost 30 people in that one ambush.

perhaps instead of small sections using dhruv, we need Mi17V to insert 30 people in one shot when strong enemy forces is suspected. overkill is good.

and having some WSI Dhruv/armed drones would be nice for such fights.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Pranav »

How accurate are the coordinates that can be acquired by UAVs? Good enough to feed into precision guided artillery?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

small units are always at risk if something goes wrong

Hezbollah trapped a Israeli naval SF team and shot it to pieces.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Pranav »

The fundamental issue is that of determining locations of targets in real time, and rapidly delivering ordinance accurately to those locations.

What is needed is UAVs fitted with SARs, thermal imaging cameras etc which can accurately acquire targets within an accuracy of a couple of meters say, and the ability to send PGMs there.

Any ideas on what is possible in principle, and what DRDO might be able to deliver.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by ArmenT »

^^^^
While GPS can be accurate to < 1 meter resolution, that capability is only available to the US military. Everyone else has to make do with a degraded signal which is accurate to around 20 meters resolution or so. The only way to get around this is to create your own GPS system, which some countries are attempting to do, such as the EU's Galileo system and India's IRNSS program. However, these systems are still under development and until they are brought online, everyone has to rely on the GPS system from the US.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Pranav »

ArmenT wrote:^^^^
While GPS can be accurate to < 1 meter resolution, that capability is only available to the US military. Everyone else has to make do with a degraded signal which is accurate to around 20 meters resolution or so. The only way to get around this is to create your own GPS system, which some countries are attempting to do, such as the EU's Galileo system and India's IRNSS program. However, these systems are still under development and until they are brought online, everyone has to rely on the GPS system from the US.
Right ... but IMHO the harder issue is coordinates acquisition. You can put a gimballed camera on a UAV. You know the location of the UAV with GPS, and you can get roll and pitch values with level sensors. Using a series of GPS measurements can give you the approx bearing, but then if there is a wind, the UAV may not be pointing in the direction of travel. A compass would also give approx data.

Perhaps better to use 2 UAVs and get the target coordinates by triangulation. First get approx location using one UAV, then get both UAVs to take simultaneous snaps of the site. Then a human operator takes the two images and manually locates the target on each. You have the GPS readings of each UAV at the instant of the snaps. You would also have a non-real time satellite image of the area, with coordinates grid.

Of course one or both UAVs can be replaced by a soldier on the ground, but you may often not have somebody on the ground when a target is first spotted in a remote area.

The question is what accuracy you can get by using all this data.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Singha »

> What is needed is UAVs fitted with SARs, thermal imaging cameras etc

the Rustom-1 UAV is planned to use such payloads, perhaps what we do not have will be israeli.

the larger Israeli UAV like Heron and Eitan are already operating with such payloads...

but ofcourse issue is having the network that can pipe their feed with or without processing directly into laptops and handhelds carried by SF units as the american special forces have such eqpt. these units can either attack themselves or call in helicopter gunships into the role.....in theory
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by KrishnaK »

Surya et al, thanks
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

Surya wrote:small units are always at risk if something goes wrong

Hezbollah trapped a Israeli naval SF team and shot it to pieces.
That was the 1997 raid in Lebanon near Sidon. The claim was it was Amal not Hezb who ambushed and wiped out the S-13 team. BTW unlike Maj Sharma's team which fought it out alone from a disadvantageous position, in case of the S-13 team they had plenty of support from air and naval guns after the initial ambush. Sometimes we forget just how overwhelming the odds are against our men during these operations - most western forces never even come close to such situations.

rohitvats, I would say mainly lungar gup becoz I don't know of any OR who was told explicitly it was SSG. The conclusions were mainly derived from the tactics and equipment employed - a common opinion was that the training and tactics displayed by the intruders was way higher than most conventional troops whether Paki or otherwise.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rohitvats »

^^^Thanks. That is what I had thought.Based on 'interactions' with these piglets, the troops have over the years managed to understand the pschye of these scums and are understand fairly well what is to be expected. Deviations in tactics and CQB skills, like the group in Mumbai or when Afgans first made to Valley, is an indicator of better training/more hardened cadres or worse still, PA/SSG in mufti. Quite possible.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

^^^One cheeky comment from an ex-CIJWS chap was that if the US SF could fight like these terrorists, the Khans would have won in Afghanistan :lol:
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by darshhan »

rohitvats wrote:^^^Thanks. That is what I had thought.Based on 'interactions' with these piglets, the troops have over the years managed to understand the pschye of these scums and are understand fairly well what is to be expected. Deviations in tactics and CQB skills, like the group in Mumbai or when Afgans first made to Valley, is an indicator of better training/more hardened cadres or worse still, PA/SSG in mufti. Quite possible.
One of the things I have noted is how the Indian Army(both SF and non SF) have adapted so well to Counter Insurgency and Counter Terrorism and it is now the Insurgents/Terrorists who are on the defensive.And that too without alienating native population(to a large extent) and without using heavy firepower.It is nothing short of Amazing.Future curriculums of counter insurgency will be incomplete if they do not include successful turning of the tide by Indian Army against Paki Terrorists.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by vdutta »

Image

Image
A National Security Guards (NSG) soldier participates in a drill during the inauguration of an NSG Hub in Kolkata, India, Saturday, Feb. 18, 2012. The Indian government has taken initiative to set up regional hubs for Indian National Security Guards, the elite commando force, at Mumbai, Hyderabad, Chennai and Kolkata after the terrorist attack on Mumbai in 2008.
source: daylife.com
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by vdutta »

Image

Image
A National Security Guards (NSG) soldier participates in a drill during the inauguration of an NSG Hub in Kolkata, India, Saturday, Feb. 18, 2012. The Indian government has taken initiative to set up regional hubs for Indian National Security Guards, the elite commando force, at Mumbai, Hyderabad, Chennai and Kolkata after the terrorist attack on Mumbai in 2008.
source: daylife.com
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Aditya G »

Raja Bose wrote:Sometimes we forget just how overwhelming the odds are against our men during these operations - most western forces never even come close to such situations..
.. and how frequent and 'day to day' it seems. I don't think the general populace realizes that we are fighting a war on daily basis .... even though in last 2 years the casualty figures on both sides has gone down considerably compared to the high in 2001
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

The claim was it was Amal not Hezb who ambushed and wiped out the S-13 team. BTW unlike Maj Sharma's team which fought it out alone from a disadvantageous position,
Amal only provided the outer cover\backup - their job was to fire a bit and melt away. It was hezbollah all the way



Yes the Israelis threatened massive retaliation elsewhere if the extraction team was going to be fired upon through Syrian sources else there would have been more losses
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

^^Oh the extraction team got fired upon too and the evacuation chopper got hit badly. There was a grisly picture afterwards of the fighters parading remains of S-13 commandos from the incident. :(
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

Raja

they could have completely prevented the extraction. The israelis were getting desperate and threatened retaliation via Syrain channels

The guy whose remains were paraded was the sapper who was carrying all the explosive and had the misfortune to have a round detonate against him. Sergeant Ila - i think

The rest of the bodies (or most - i need to double check) were extracted minus some body parts which the hezb made full use of in propaganda - including the rescue medic who caught a mortar blast
(Ila was returned with 5 limbs - and the IDF did not mention it till a subsequent video caused an uproar and the body had tobe exhumed0
check Warriors of God - they have even mentioned the part time Amal characters who were in the outer ring
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

^^IDF used to have a webpage which described the incident in detail - cant find it any more.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by sum »

From Tarmak:
Bangalore: The Special Forces (SF) commandos in Bangalore are left in the lurch. They don't have a place for parachute refresher training – a must-do-dare-devil-exercise – also known as para-jumps. The Indian Army says they have identified an area at Hoskote Kera on the outskirts of Bangalore and written to Karnataka government (read as several times) seeking their permission to notify the 505 acres of land for their special training. The Army feels that the area provides an ideal ground for safe landing, with the soil being smooth and absorbing the impact.
The exercise (either a jump or drop) is performed from a chopper, AN-32 or IL-76. In a free fall jump, a paratrooper comes down at great speeds with severe g-force with the the chute opening at one particular height. In the second option, the chute opens the moment a paratrooper is dropped.
The 2 Para Regiment (Special Forces) was allotted to Bangalore post 26/11, while Chennai and Kolkota got the National Security Guard (NSG) hub. Bangalore also houses the Indian Army's Parachute Regimental Training Centre. In 2010, the 2 Para SF set up their base in Hebbal, with little details known about their operations.
Documents with Express show that the Army first wrote to the Karnataka government in May 2010, requesting permission for utilising the land at Hokote Kera for four weeks in a year (one week in a quarter). The Army also gave an undertaking in writing that no permanent assets would be built on the land. “In the same letter, the Army wanted the area notified to avoid high-rise buildings and towers coming up in the vicinity, which might endanger the lives of paratroopers,” sources said.
Sources say that the bureaucratic wrangles in the state government shook the Army a bit considering the premier force had to wait a for a long time for an exercise meant to equip its men in the wake of a terrorists' strike. The paratroopers finally were given the nod to performs their jumps between October 27-29 in 2010 with the Bangalore Rural District collector granting permission in a letter dated 20.10.2010.
In 2011, the Army again wrote to the state government for a repeat exercise, but this time (so far) no permission came forth. This forced the paratroopers to be airlifted to Agra so that they didn't miss their schedules. Now, an irked Army is planning to take up the matter with the state government one more time, wanting a permanent solution to their demand.

Let the Army not lose heart: Karnataka Govt
The Karnataka government is in no mood to drag their feet into yet another controversy with a battalion of woes already chasing them. When Express sought the state's version to Army's plea for a safe drop zone (DZ) for its paratroopers in Hoskote Kere, a senior government official wanted the Army not to lose heart. He also felt that had the Army put a well-oiled follow-up mechanism in place, a different story could have unfolded.
“We have never backed out of our responsibilities in supporting our Armed Forces. We keep getting request from the IAF, CRPF, Navy and many more from time to time. We recently allotted land to CRPF in Belgaum. We are ready to help and take decisions above the board when in comes to our defence forces,” the official said.
When brought to the notice that the Army officials were made to run from pillar to post, the official said: “Let them not lose heart and be patient. The said land in Hoskote is a dried tank bed and there are court rulings in notifying them. I am sure that the local people in the area would benefit if an Army unit comes up there. The economy of the region would also improve.”
With none from local Army units wanting to comment, sources in the Army HQ directly dealing with the 2 Para (SF) told Express that the matter has already reached them. “To a paratrooper every jump matters and it is evaluated by instructors. The availability of air support and safe ground areas are two key things. With the unit moving to Bangalore, it was essential that such facility was available to the paratroopers near the base. When the permission was getting delayed in Bangalore, we directed the local units (Bangalore) to do a recce of an area in Thoranagallu (Bellary). But, they found the land not suitable for jump with rough pebbles all over. We don't want our soldiers to bleed during training, but sweat hard,” the official said.
He said para jumps at Hoskote Kere would be a tremendous motivating factor for the local youth and would also project the role of Indian Army in Karnataka. “It would act as deterrence to any evil designs, in addition to reducing the burden on the exchequer in moving the personnel from Bangalore to Agra and back,” the official told Express.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Shameek »

Raja Bose wrote:^^IDF used to have a webpage which described the incident in detail - cant find it any more.
I found a of news article. Don't know how accurate it is.
The Independent
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Singha »

I like the idea of interior ministry having its own air wing -- so long as its not comandeered by MPs/Gandhis/Gandhibandhus for electioneering and racketeering trips. there has to be a LAW enacted that such assets cannot be diverted or even leased out for these uses even if they sit idle.

BSF clearly is incapable of running its own airwing. better to have a centralized org that HAL and IAF can work properly with.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by merlin »

Singha wrote:I like the idea of interior ministry having its own air wing -- so long as its not comandeered by MPs/Gandhis/Gandhibandhus for electioneering and racketeering trips. there has to be a LAW enacted that such assets cannot be diverted or even leased out for these uses even if they sit idle.

BSF clearly is incapable of running its own airwing. better to have a centralized org that HAL and IAF can work properly with.
And you think a law will stop them?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Singha »

but enlarging the VVIP sqdn run by BSF with say 12 EMB145 for such national missions might feed the beast enough to keep it away from the real meat :mrgreen:
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by vaibhav.n »

Aditya G wrote:Dear Rohit, Surya

What is an Assault Team in our Para SF setup? eg: Maj Mohit Sharma was part of the "B Assault Team" that day.
An assault team is usually but not always the smallest in a given AOR. They consist of a certain number of squads headed by NCO's (Hav). In this case being Bravo Assault Team. They operate for a given sector and are tasked as such. Lets not discuss strength.
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