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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 00:20 
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tsarkar wrote:
Try shouting Jai Shri Ram or Jai Mata Di at an Exocet Armed Mirage or Harpoon Armed Agosta instead of fighting professionally. You'll realize Shri Ram too doesnt suffer nincompoops and fools.


Ah, I see, so I think you have a fundamental disconnect with your fellow officers in Olive green as well, when they cry "Raja Ram chandra ki jai" as they fit bayonets (being all out of bullets) and charge at machine gun posts.

Perhaps they did not get the signal that they should be "professional" and there was no need to consider soldiering to be a "calling" instead of a "job which paid money for services rendered".

Foolishly they made India their cause, and thought it mattered, not something which just happened to be the case.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 00:28 
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abhishek_sharma wrote:
Quote:
But they also did some things right, like an impartial judicial system,
sahi hai...can you tell us what punishment General Dyer got? Please also explain how it was fair and impartial.
Quote:
A Committee of Inquiry, chaired by Lord William Hunter, was established to investigate the massacre. The committee reported
lack of notice to disperse from the Bagh in the beginning was an error
length of firing showed a grave error
Dyer's motive of producing a sufficient moral effect was to be condemned
lack of attention to the wounded was not acceptable
He was met by Lieutenant-General Sir Havelock Hudson, who told him that he was relieved of his command. He was told later by the Commander-in-Chief in India, General Sir Charles Monro, to resign his post and that he would not be reemployed.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 00:29 
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Is that sufficient for killing hundreds of people? Why didn't he go to jail?

The Indians were killed for disobeying an order. And the British general was fired for killing hundreds of people. Impartial indeed.


Last edited by abhishek_sharma on 20 Feb 2012 00:31, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 00:30 
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^^^ Sterling justice.

I am impressed.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 00:30 
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tsarkar wrote:

FWIW, you haven't given a single example of a non clan non royalty person achieving leadership of the military organization through his merit in Ancient India.


can you give a single example of a non clan non royalty person achieving leadership of the military organization through his merit in Roman Empire? in Britain 1000 years ago? in Britain 100 years ago?

and why talk of ancient India? an example from 500 years ago should be sufficient. have you looked into Vijayanagara history? especially about the transition period from the first dynasty to the second dynasty? namely from the Sangama line to the Saluva line? you will know that the person who established the Saluva line was actually a soldier in the Vijayanagara army but was not related to any of the established elites. you will also know that this "stranger to power" (I am paraphrasing the comment made by one of the European or Persian historians of the time) rose from the lower ranks of soldiery to a top ranking general through sheer merit and conquered large portions of AP coast and eventually established his line on the throne.

before you start talking about "Ancient" India, you should perhaps read up on the last 1000 years of Indic imperial projects!!


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 00:33 
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devesh wrote:
tsarkar,

have you read up on Chola history? perhaps you should inform the rest of us how the Cholas went on to conquer vast portions of SE Asia and colonize them not just with war but also establishing Sanatana Dharma in that portion, without meritocracy, "ethos", "discipline" and all the other buzzwords that you are using.

you should also go ahead and explain to us dimwitted jingoes how Arab penetration of SE Asia was delayed by more than a century by the Cholas, without "discipline"/"ethos"/"meritocracy", etc.....at the height of its power, the Cholas were the most powerful naval force in the world. neither in the Mediterranean (Italians, Normans, Byzantium, Almoravids, Almohads, Salahaddin) nor in the IOR was there a challenger to Chola naval power at its height. the above mentioned are the other powerful naval traditions of the time and none of them could even remotely match the sophistication or the overall might of the naval power of the Cholas.

a little history should do you some good. it might expand your horizons a bit!



still eagerly waiting for a response on this!


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 00:34 
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abhishek_sharma wrote:
Is that sufficient for killing hundreds of people?


They were only unprofessional indians who were standing up for non professional activities like patriotism and nationalism.

As you can see those shouting hordes of barbaric morons did not stand a chance against the professionalism of the soldiers of the BIA.

In that Tsarkar indeed calls upon a long legacy of professionalism of some Indians going back many hundred years.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 00:37 
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Last edited by abhishek_sharma on 20 Feb 2012 00:39, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 00:38 
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Sanku wrote:
tsarkar wrote:
Try shouting Jai Shri Ram or Jai Mata Di at an Exocet Armed Mirage or Harpoon Armed Agosta instead of fighting professionally. You'll realize Shri Ram too doesnt suffer nincompoops and fools.
Ah, I see, so I think you have a fundamental disconnect with your fellow officers in Olive green as well, when they cry "Raja Ram chandra ki jai" as they fit bayonets (being all out of bullets) and charge at machine gun posts.
No Sanku, there is no disconnect. The infantry battle cry is made only during charges, that are far inbetween, and because of heritage rather than religiousity. No one yells and screams during general advances. It is only in dire circumstances that bullets run out and bayonets are used. A well run professional army - like IA in 1971 - typically does not subject its soldiers to such circumstances. Kargil was an example where we, as an organization, unprofessionally let our guard down, and subjected our soldiers to extreme circumstances.

Sanku wrote:
Perhaps they did not get the signal that they should be "professional" and there was no need to consider soldiering to be a "calling" instead of a "job which paid money for services rendered".
This is your speculation and your personal colouring.

Your personal falsifications will not affect the ethos of the Army or Navy in any manner.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 00:44 
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tsarkar wrote:
No Sanku, there is no disconnect. The infantry battle cry is made only during charges, that are far inbetween, and because of heritage rather than religiousity.


Some heritage in display

Image

Quote:
Your personal falsifications will not affect the ethos of the Army or Navy in any manner.


No; but your distasteful statements which are both bigoted and ignorant will.

And will also impact India.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 00:48 
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devesh wrote:
have you read up on Chola history?
Yes.
devesh wrote:
none of them could even remotely match the sophistication or the overall might of the naval power of the Cholas.
Does anyone have a description of the Chola naval organization? No. Does anyone remotely know what a Chola ship looked like? No. Have any Chola shipwreck been found like Viking ships? No. Does any shipbuilding industry or ocean going shipbuilding knowledge exist in TN today? No. Are there any Chola literature that describes shipbuilding? No. Why did this wonderful navy vanish without a trace? No clue. One cannot base an ethos in the complete absence of facts.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 00:52 
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tsarkar wrote:
Sanku wrote:
Perhaps they did not get the signal that they should be "professional" and there was no need to consider soldiering to be a "calling" instead of a "job which paid money for services rendered".
This is your speculation and your personal colouring.


What is my speculation and personal coloring pray?

The definition of professionalism? The M-W dictionary of the Great Brittianina the sterling example of truth and justice says that.

The definition of soldiering as per IA? That it is a calling and not merely a profession !! Now now, do you want me to spoon feed statements by IA officers for that as well? (What part of Naam, Namak aur Nishan is "professionalism"? btw)

So what exactly is the issue.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 00:53 
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tsarkar wrote:
devesh wrote:
have you read up on Chola history?
Yes.
devesh wrote:
none of them could even remotely match the sophistication or the overall might of the naval power of the Cholas.
Does anyone have a description of the Chola naval organization? No. Does anyone remotely know what a Chola ship looked like? No. Have any Chola shipwreck been found like Viking ships? No. Does any shipbuilding industry or ocean going shipbuilding knowledge exist in TN today? No. Are there any Chola literature that describes shipbuilding? No. Why did this wonderful navy vanish without a trace? No clue. One cannot base an ethos in the complete absence of facts.


Whose NO? Kindly do not make your personal ignorance a global issue.

You have made many ignorant statements already.

Try and use the web, you will be surprised at what it throws up.

Edit, since I some how dont expect that you will make the effort:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chola_Navy

Can you please at least start here?


Last edited by Sanku on 20 Feb 2012 00:56, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 00:56 
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Sanku wrote:
Some heritage in display Image
Sanku, most human pray, but that is NOT evidence of a professional organization being influenced by religiousity in its decisions and actions. This is another example of your misrepresentation.

Sanku wrote:
No; but your distasteful statements which are both bigoted and ignorant will.And will also impact India.
[/quote]A statement coming from a dishonest person does not carry any weight. A person who would be screened out and never even invited for appearing in an SSB. Because of his limited intellect, the person would only watch this prestigious organization from afar, unlike us who proudly served.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 00:59 
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My feeling is some of the above posts can be discussed more under burkha threads rather than here. :((


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 01:02 
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tsarkar wrote:
Sanku, most human pray, but that is NOT evidence of a professional organization being influenced by religiousity in its decisions and actions. This is another example of your misrepresentation.


That was a picture of PVC Captain Vikram Batra praying to their unit Kul Devi for blessing; seeking her blessing before the battle for Point 4875.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikram_Batra

Quote:
His last words were, "Jai Mata Di." (which means in Punjabi 'Hail the Divine Mother')


I think you have exposed yourself thoroughly by now.

Quote:
A statement coming from a dishonest person does not carry any weight. A person who would be screened out and never even invited for appearing in an SSB. Because of his limited intellect, the person would only watch this prestigious organization from afar, unlike us who proudly served.

[/quote]

A personal attack does not take away from the fact that you have indeed been shown to be a bigot and a ignoramus. Unaware of the basics but pompous and full of himself.

Sad. Would have expected better from a officer.


Last edited by Sanku on 20 Feb 2012 01:05, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 01:04 
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The hall mark of true bravery is accepting that you are wrong when showed so by evidence.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 01:07 
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krisna wrote:
My feeling is some of the above posts can be discussed more under burkha threads rather than here. :((


I did offer, but Tsarkar wanted to persist in mocking India and praising the British. I am not sure if we want such a legacy of British influence on Indian armed forces to continue.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 01:08 
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Sanku wrote:
Whose NO? Kindly do not make your personal ignorance a global issue. You have made many ignorant statements already. Try and use the web, you will be surprised at what it throws up. Edit, since I some how dont expect that you will make the effort: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chola_Navy Can you please at least start here?


Quote:
A fully equipped Chola Thalam is said to have been able to withstand an attack by more than twice its size. This is attributed to the superior range of missile weapons in Chola Inventory.
What are these missile weapons? Why doesnt any description of this wonderful weapon survive? Most importantly, why did such a powerful navy with such powerful weapons suddenly collapse?Djinn technology at work.

FYI, the ASI reconstruction is that of a coastal boat, and not an ocean going ship.

There is no denying Cholas and others spread our culture far and wide. However, because of the passage of time, no records remain that can be used to base an ethos on.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 01:17 
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Sanku wrote:
That was a picture of PVC Captain Vikram Batra praying to their unit Kul Devi for blessing; seeking her blessing before the battle for Point 4875.
Your ignorance is revealed. That is 2 Raj Rif praying at Tololing. Vikram Batra is nowhere in the picture, Vijayant Thapar is in the background. Vikram Batra was from a different unit.

Sanku wrote:
You have indeed been shown to be a bigot and a ignoramus. Unaware of the basics but pompous and full of himself. Sad. Would have expected better from a officer.
You may rave and rant, Sanku, and make false accusations that I am promoting the British. I am not, I am promoting enthicity-and-religion-agnostic-values. Because of your dishonesty, I am sure your real life too is pathetic, and doesnt extend beyond jingogiri.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 01:17 
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Quote:
ethos of the Army or Navy

Ethos of Army or Navy must represent the ethos of the Nation, its ideology, its people. It cannot be rooted on an some external entity.
For most Indians, Britishers represent slavery, colonolialism, indentured laborers, exploitation, religious conversions, plundering of Indian revenue, over taxation, killing of millions of Indians (famine and otherwise), Divide and rule, Macaulization of Indians, Shipment of Indian laborers (read slaves) to plantation form through out the world and countless other attrocities.

The leftover British symbol of "st. Georges Cross" represent all of these attrocities to a lot of Indians. Some people inside and outside Navy may arbitrarily attribute the symbol to professionalism and having a tight as.s. But for a lot of Indians, it is a symbol of all attrocities of Britishers and it must be condemned and thrown away into the dustbin.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 01:23 
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tsarkar wrote:
Sanku wrote:
Whose NO? Kindly do not make your personal ignorance a global issue. You have made many ignorant statements already. Try and use the web, you will be surprised at what it throws up. Edit, since I some how dont expect that you will make the effort: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chola_Navy Can you please at least start here?


Quote:
A fully equipped Chola Thalam is said to have been able to withstand an attack by more than twice its size. This is attributed to the superior range of missile weapons in Chola Inventory.
What are these missile weapons? Why doesnt any description of this wonderful weapon survive? Most importantly, why did such a powerful navy with such powerful weapons suddenly collapse?Djinn technology at work.

FYI, the ASI reconstruction is that of a coastal boat, and not an ocean going ship.

There is no denying Cholas and others spread our culture far and wide. However, because of the passage of time, no records remain that can be used to base an ethos on.


Dear Tsarkar, that was a small pointer, search and you will find more.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 01:25 
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Srini, the white ensign does not represent affiliation to the evils of British Colonialism, but affiliation to a seafaring and naval tradition. What next? Wear dhotis to war instead of trousers, since trousers are a western invention? Change ranks structure?

General Dyer also wore trousers, going by Sanku's logic, wearing trousers is praising General Dyer's behavior.

Why dont the hypocrite posters screaming Jai Mata Di stop wearing trousers, because they are not Indian. FWIW, I wear a dhoti in my village.


Last edited by tsarkar on 20 Feb 2012 01:27, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 01:26 
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tsarkar wrote:
Sanku wrote:
That was a picture of PVC Captain Vikram Batra praying to their unit Kul Devi for blessing; seeking her blessing before the battle for Point 4875.
Your ignorance is revealed. That is 2 Raj Rif praying at Tololing. Vikram Batra is nowhere in the picture, Vijayant Thapar is in the background. Vikram Batra was from a different unit.


Ah fair enough, I may have gotten the wrong picture, but hey that does not change the point does it?

Meanwhile, there is also a picture of Captain Batra praying. But hey, how does the change the thrust of the argument pray?


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 01:28 
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tsarkar wrote:
Srini, the white ensign does not represent affiliation to the evils of British Colonialism, but affiliation to a seafaring and naval tradition. What next? Wear dhotis to war instead of trousers, since trousers are a western invention? Change ranks structure?


Let me repost to nail this piece of misinformation once again, first posted on last page.

viewtopic.php?p=1245337#p1245337

Since we can effortlessly claim that the St George's cross stands for this and that, I wonder why the whole world is not aware of its legacy? Wiki certainly does not know, in fact it says a lot of interesting things which have nothing to do with issues like competence and professionalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_George's_Cross

Quote:
Genoa's patron saint was St. George, and its vast trading fleet carried the association between the flag and the Saint across the ports of Europe and the Mediterranean Sea. The flag was adopted by England and the City of London in 1190 for their ships entering the Mediterranean and in part on the Black Sea, to benefit from the protection of the Genoese fleet. The English Monarch paid an annual tribute to the Doge of Genoa for this privilege.

Some French knights carried on using the red cross however, and as English knights wore this pattern as well, the red cross on white became the typical crusader symbol regardless of nationality.

Churches belonging to the Church of England (unless for special reasons another flag is flown by custom) may fly the St George's Cross. The correct way (since an order from the Earl Marshal in 1938) is for the church to fly the St George's cross, with the arms of the diocese in the left-hand upper corner of the flag.[3]


Lot of secular, professional standards around the symbol of St George's cross, as opposed to those yahoo barbarian Indian symbols which people did not know how to wipe their arse with paper before the Great Britain took some of them and taught them their professional ways and made them special.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 01:29 
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Sanku wrote:
Meanwhile, there is also a picture of Captain Batra praying. But hey, how does the change the thrust of the argument pray?
tsarkar wrote:
Sanku, most human pray, but that is NOT evidence of a professional organization being influenced by religiousity in its decisions and actions.
Stop this needless jingo-giri, this is the start of Taliban irrationality. Dont become one of them.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 02:02 
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tsarkar wrote:
Sanku wrote:
Meanwhile, there is also a picture of Captain Batra praying. But hey, how does the change the thrust of the argument pray?
tsarkar wrote:
Sanku, most human pray, but that is NOT evidence of a professional organization being influenced by religiousity in its decisions and actions.
Stop this needless jingo-giri, this is the start of Taliban irrationality. Dont become one of them.


Kindly do not resort to rhetoric when you run out of facts.

You have been SIMPLY WRONG in many of the statements you have made, in addition you have run down India and built up the English, that too on the horribly wrong data points.

I have a suggestion, accept that you were wrong and withdraw gracefully rather than digging a bigger hole for yourself with each post. There is no merit in supporting a flawed position.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 02:06 
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tsarkar wrote:
Srini, the white ensign does not represent affiliation to the evils of British Colonialism, but affiliation to a seafaring and naval tradition. What next? Wear dhotis to war instead of trousers, since trousers are a western invention? Change ranks structure?


Actually a lot of changes were indeed done post independence, in terms of removing British colonial ensigns at a number of places. Unfortunately that task was not fully followed through.

So we still have a "district collector" when even the concept of usurious revenue collection from farmers has ceased to exist.

Surely it is no ones case that a blind following of all that was handed from British time must continue?

Indian Navy Ensign change is sorely needed.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 02:12 
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And I unconditionally apologize for any and all hard words and thoughts that I had posted during this discussion.

There was no intent on my side to cause offense, I also unconditionally state that I have taken no personal umbrage (no need for me to take any) and thus am calling for an end to any hostility that I may have accidentally been at the root of.

I will however continue the debate, in a much more level headed manner. If others do so. (continue the debate)


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 02:52 
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tsarkar: This is an honest question. How many British military leaders do you know of that weren't nobility ? Compare that to the count of those that were and come up with a rough ratio. British and other european forces were mostly feudal, just as in India. The whole point of Europeans having created a scientific approach to war comes out of the fact that they managed to conquer the problem of political stability. A stable political dispensation and the idea of loyalty to the nation gave rise to everything that you talk about. A sense of espirit-de-corps, pride in professionalism and discipline can most certainly be cultivated with a brand new flag or ensign. Wanting to shed ourselves of any vestiges of colonial colours need not mean that person is religious nutcase. It doesn't have to be one way or another.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 03:13 
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waah....this is a new record for anyone on BRF. seriously, tsarkar, your response to my two posts consisted of completely ignoring one post and then replying to another post with what is a complete denial of history. since the Indians never had a any "ethos" and "discipline" I won't quote any Indian records for you. I will simply tell you to look for what your dearly beloved European historians say about Chola navy. even the most revisionist of European historians AGREE that the Chola Navy was the most powerful of the time and that if not for them Islamic colonization of SE Asia would have been more widespread and entrenched.

I am still waiting for you to put your spin on the other post about the meritocratic rise from lower ranks of soldiery to kingship in the Vijayanagara times. I suggest that you find some other spin for this than the "where is the proof" b/c fortunately the history of this empire is pretty well documented. just a friendly suggestion!


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 03:35 
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I am surprised that a moderator has not stepped in. The oversized smiley reference was perhaps just in bad taste but surely denigrating official IA regimental battlecries like "Raja Ram chandra ki jai" must cross some line?


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 04:06 
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tsarkar & Sanku: Please cease & desist before the admins do it for you. Thanks.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 05:25 
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this line of discussion ends here. continue in mil misc or off topic thread if you want.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 05:51 
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<del>

This is an old report (apologies if posted earlier)
,worth chewing upon,as we need to stress the acquisition of a series of dedicated mil-sats for the IN asap.This will give us the ability to engage in NCW across a wider footprint of the IOR and Indo-China Sea,at the moment lacking enough surveillance capabilities due to the limited number of LRMPs.

Vision-2020 – The Next Step for India’s Military Space Programs
http://defense-update.com/20111220_visi ... grams.html

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... ganization

Quote:
Military satellite delayed again by a year
Rajat Pandit, TNN Oct 13, 2011,
(Indian armed forces are still to get their own dedicated surveillance and communication satellites despite several years of promises and plans.)

NEW DELHI: PM Manmohan Singh may wax eloquent that the military will be equipped with "all necessary means to meet all threats", including those "which go beyond conventional warfare", but no sense of urgency is being shown in the space arena.

Indian armed forces are still to get their own dedicated surveillance and communication satellites despite several years of promises and plans, leave alone offensive space capabilities like ASAT (anti-satellite) weapons or advanced directed-energy laser weapons.

Moreover, the government continues to keep the desperately-needed tri-Service Aerospace Command in cold storage, even though China has taken to the military exploitation of space, which includes ASAT capabilities, in a major way.

Top defence officials admit the much-awaited launch of the naval communication and surveillance satellite, "Rohini", has been once again delayed by a year or so. Satellites for Army-IAF will only follow thereafter.

Incidentally, during the naval commanders' conference in 2009, defence minister A K Antony had declared that the satellite to boost connectivity over sea would be launched in early-2010.

Subsequently, Indian Space Research Organization ( ISRO) had revised the satellite's "launch window" to December 2010-March 2011. But to no avail.

"There has been another big delay now...it won't be possible before end-2012 at the earliest," said an official, even as all top military commanders are currently in New Delhi for their annual brain-storming sessions.

"The problem is the repeated failures of GSLV (geosynchronous satellite launch vehicle) and indigenous cryogenic engines (ISRO is now left with only one of the cryogenic engines imported from Russia)," he added.

With no early launch in sight, talk is gaining ground that India should contemplate a foreign launcher for its GSAT-7 series of military satellites.

The 2,330-kg naval satellite is supposed to have an around 1,000 nautical mile footprint over Indian Ocean, stretching from Red Sea to Malacca Strait, to ensure "network-centric operations" and "maritime domain awareness". The IAF-Army one, in turn, will have a similar footprint over land.

The Defence Space Vision-2020 identified only intelligence, reconnaissance, surveillance, communication and navigation as the thrust areas in Phase-I till 2012. But even such capabilities, which include the critical necessity to keep 24x7 tabs on enemy troop movements, warships, airbases and missile silos as well as bolster surveillance over Indian airspace, will remain limited in the absence of dedicated military satellites.

Interestingly, while India is publicly opposed to "militarization of space", the defence ministry last year had come out with a "Technology Perspective and Capability Roadmap" till 2025 which identified space warfare as a priority area, as was first reported by TOI.


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