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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 08:04 
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arnab wrote:
Just to make it absolutely clear, Karnad is faulting the govt for not using its prerogative to select the next chief, rather than leaving it to the former COAS. So what do you think BRF's reaction would have been if the govt had interfered with the advice of professional chiefs?


Well the traditional thing to do would be to declare that Bharat Karnad hhas gone soft in the head. First peace with Pakistan. Then this.


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 08:07 
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amit wrote:
viv wrote:
You and many are keen on this point but ignore the un-ethical push to make him accept this DoB. btw, as per the report in Indian express Justice Lodha noted that he raised it in 1985. Do also note that all promotions until Lt. General ( the highest rank other than COAS) were under 1951. So please read the reports.


Sigh! Viv, please at least read the parts of my post you quote.

amit wrote:
I don't want to go into the ethical issue of accepting 1950 in order to get the promotion, even if it was under duress and then not accepting it when it pertained to his retirement.


aiyyo! then why mention it? Maybe I read it wrong but it sounded like 'Brutus is an honourable man ..' . :D


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 08:33 
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I
Surya wrote:
Quote:
so as long as India is a democracy, even if that means a less competent man gets the top post. It's useful to remember that it's but a small step away from having a situation where by an Army Chief gives himself extensions or decides how long he would remain - just look at Pakistan



Oh sure - yes yes we all agreee

and while we on that note lets remember this


http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... Namka.html


As the brutal rock shatters the placid glass
into a thousand irreparable fragment
A bitter grief is hurled at normalcy and peace.
Never will they be quite complete again
The crack of pain and death will always show
The weeping of wives bereft, of the anguished old
Will echo down the years of history
The wasted unspent lives, the loss of years
Too many to be counted
Too precious to be valued
A generation unborn, man's immortality...
there is the bitterness
So violent that the heart revolts and weeps
unceasing, arid, unshed tears
The sense of shame, of betrayal unforgivable
Never to be redeemed
Of sacrifice avoidable, insensate
that is the guilt we share
The valley is silent shrouded in death's immobility final and absolute.
But the soundless cry from the mountains beats upon our ears
Pitiless and Undeniable
We died, unsecured, helpless
We were your soldiers, men of bravery and pride
Yet we died like animals, trapped in a cage with no escape
Massacred at will, denied the dignity of battle
With the cold burning flame of anger and resolution
With the courage both of the living and the dead.
Avenge our un-played lives
Redeem the unredeemable sacrifice
In freedom and integrity
Let this be your inheritance
and our unwritten epitaph.



Oh you tortured souls - too bad you died like dogs - but you see our govt wants to make sure you understand they have the right to select whosoever they want - incompetent or otherwise


Harji Malik's poem was read out in Parliament. The account of the battle and the poem were documented in my father's book - The Rivers of Silence - and we made it a point to list the names of all those who died on the fatefull day.

You will be glad to know though that at Lumla a beautiful hut of rememberance has been constructed. The inverted .303 with a helmet is silhoutted against the Thagla Ridge and the Namgyan Chu Valley where 2 Rajput stood and fought. All our 282 KIA are also engraved in granite now at Tawang.

Posting pictures on this forum is a pain, otherwise I'd put them out. I published the rifle photo on the title page of my Siachen book though. My dear friend Kapil still hasn't posted the pictures of Lt Navdeep Singh's ambush spot which I sent him now twenty days ago! I also have with me a PLA film of the battle.

Anyway, this is also the battalion into which VKS was commissioned, and later commanded. If only we as a nation honoured our dead, we wouldn't be in such a sordid mess.

a


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 08:42 
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Kunal

the pictures delay is not kaps fault.

Will chase it with jagman

it is indeed ironic about the 2nd Rajput connection

thanks


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 08:55 
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Surya wrote:
Kunal

the pictures delay is not kaps fault.

Will chase it with jagman

it is indeed ironic about the 2nd Rajput connection

thanks


Thanks for telling me that. I was getting real mad with Kapil.

BTW, and I feel even VKS has goofed up here, there are no three 'Acceptance Letters'. The Chief was probably hoping this would get clarified when the matter came up in the SC. As far as the spin doctors are concerned, keep harping on the letters of Acceptance and they become a reality! Look at how incensed people on this forum have been on this one point.

Just think about it guys - it's not in character with the man. Have faith gentlemen, the truth will prevail.


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 09:05 
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Also, read the SC's Order. There is nothing about a) threhold documents b) letters of Acceptance c) the legalty of there being two dates of births. The press has kept a running commentary going on the arguements, one sided as they were and quoted liberally from that. When the Order was posted day before, not one newspaper or TV channel commented on it. I think MG Devashayam is coming out with a detailed article. As soon as he sends me the link I'll post it.


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 09:16 
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Kunal: I've posted MG D's other article a couple of times but opinions are pre-formed and not all read it. It also listed the DoB's as per MS being 1951 even for Lt. Gen position yet folks, even on this forum, keep stating 'last 3 promotions'.


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 09:17 
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kunal

posted the images (links) on CI thread


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 09:19 
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Just for sake of completion of Kunal Verma's post, the SC order dated 10 Feb....
Quote:
IN THE SUPREME COURT OF INDIA
CIVIL ORIGINAL JURISDICTION
WRIT PETITION (CIVIL) NO(s). 26 OF 2012
VIJAY KUMAR SINGH Petitioner(s)
VERSUS
UNION OF INDIA Respondent(s)
O R D E R
Interlocutory Application for impleadment is rejected.

2. General Vijay Kumar Singh, Chief of the Army - the petitioner - has approached this Court under Article 32 of the Constitution of India challenging order dated December 30, 2011, Office Memorandum dated July 21, 2011 and order dated July 22, 2011. By these orders/office memorandum, the petitioner's date of birth in the service record has been recognised as May 10, 1950. The petitioner maintains that his date of birth is, in fact, May 10, 1951 and must be treated as such for all purposes in the service record.

3. A caveat has been filed on behalf of the respondent- Union of India. The matter initially came up before us on February 3, 2012. In the course of hearing on that date, certain issues cropped up particularly in relation to the decision making process leading to the order dated December 30, 2011. At the request of the learned Attorney General, the matter was adjourned for today.

4. As soon as the hearing commenced today, Mr. Goolam E. Vahanvati, learned Attorney General, handed over to us a short affidavit of K.L. Nandwani, Deputy Secretary, Ministry of Defence, on behalf of the respondent. The affidavit is taken on record. It is stated in the affidavit that the order dated December 30, 2011 may be treated as confined to the order holding that statutory complaint filed by the petitioner was not maintainable. The second part of the order dated December 30, 2011 which deals with the merits on the diverse contentions raised in the complaint has been sought to be withdrawn.

5. We grant permission to the respondent to withdraw the order dated December 30, 2011 to the extent noted above. In view thereof, the petitioner's grievance with regard to the part of the order dated December 30, 2011 which deals with the merits of the controversy does not survive.

6. The principal controversy, accordingly, now remains to the challenge to the Office Memorandum dated July 21, 2011 and the order dated July 22, 2011. By the Office Memorandum dated July 21, 2011, the respondent has annulled the order issued by the ADGMP dated February 25, 2011 and has reiterated that the petitioner's official date of birth will continue to be maintained as May 10, 1950.

7. By order dated July 22, 2011 that followed Office Memorandum dated July 21, 2011, while maintaining that the petitioner's date of birth in the service record continues to be maintained as May 10, 1950, it has been held that there is no reason for it to consider effecting any change in the date of birth of the petitioner as recorded.

8. We have heard Mr. U.U. Lalit, learned senior counsel for the petitioner, and Mr. Goolam E. Vahanvati, learned Attorney General, and Mr. Rohinton F. Nariman, learned Solicitor General, for the respondent-Union of India, at quite some length.

9. In the course of hearing, Mr. Goolam E. Vahanvati, learned Attorney General, stated that the respondent-Union of India had not questioned the integrity or bonafide of the petitioner. He also stated that the contest by the respondent-Union of India to the writ Petition was on a matter of principle and it did not reflect any lack of faith or confidence in the petitioner's ability to lead the Army.

10. As a matter of fact, the question before us in the Writ Petition is not about the determination of actual date of birth of the petitioner, but it concerns the recognition of a particular date of birth of the petitioner by the respondent in the official service record.

11. In view of the statement made by Mr. Goolam E. Vahanvati, learned Attorney General, and the limited controversy in the Writ Petition as indicated above, learned senior counsel for the petitioner does not wish to press the matter further and he seeks withdrawal of the Writ Petition.

12. Writ Petition is disposed of as withdrawn.
.......................J.
(R.M. LODHA)

NEW DELHI; .......................J.
FEBRUARY 10, 2012. (H.L. GOKHALE)


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 10:34 
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why limit daksh to only anti-insurgency. I see a wider role, for even an advanced version of it, with chained up command to a battalion. leads a battalion with a bunch of daksh, and forward movements are seen in advanced, and perhaps cleansed off minor hickups.


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 13:24 
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The General Deserves Justice
Quote:
Never mind the orchestrated media blitz, don't be swayed by the wind: just read the Supreme Court order. The date of birth issue is far from being closed. The ball is in the government's court.

After the disposal of the writ petition of General V.K. Singh by Supreme Court as withdrawn on 10 February 2012, the media went ballistic and the government ecstatic. “General Loses Fight’, “VK Singh Back to the Wall” roared headlines. A cartoon on Facebook read “V.K. Singh is Dead”. Media reports were categorical in quoting the Supreme Court in saying, “in the case of Service Record of Gen VK Singh, the Date of Birth will continue to be maintained as 10 May 1950”, “the General has been told by the Supreme Court to Learn to Blow With The Wind”, “the General Has Been Advised Not to Wash Dirty Linen in Public”, “Base Documents of UPSC, NDA, IMA Give Date of Birth as 10 May 1950, Why Did General V.K. Singh Not Take Action to Change Them?” so on and so forth. With the Supreme Court ruling now out on the internet (see the 12 operative paragraphs of the Order linked at the bottom of this page), the above exceedingly well orchestrated media blitz of host of lies has come down like a pack of cards.

The Supreme Court order is very clear, in that:
The Order does NOT state that in the case of Service Record of Gen V.K. Singh, the date of birth will continue to be maintained as 10 May 1950. Wherever, the reference has been made to 10 May 1950, the Order is merely referring to what the Respondent (GoI) is saying.
The order does NOT tell the General to learn to blow with the wind.
The order does NOT tell the General not to wash dirty linen in public.
The Order does NOT refer to base / threshold documents as those of UPSC, NDA, IMA giving date of birth as 10 May 1950. NOR DOES it ask Gen VK Singh as too why dates in these were not corrected.
The Order effectively quashes the government letter rejecting the statutory complaint of General V.K. Singh.
Paragraphs 9, 10 and 11 of the Order fairly and squarely leaves the decision of the Date of Birth to the GoI.

So intense was the campaign against General V.K. Singh that even a former Judge Advocate General of the Army was brought on TV to say that Adjutant General’s Branch is NOT the authority for service record of officers in the Army— a statement in complete defiance of rules within the Army and watched in amazement by a dumbfounded military fraternity— both serving and veterans. It is a different issue that a few years’ back the same media had reported his faking attendance at a Law College and that he was operating a blog while in service against military regulations —and that a former Army Chief did not get the matter investigated for reasons best known to him.

Then of course was the disclosure by a seasoned former diplomat on a prominent national TV channel on 3rd February that the Prime Minister himself had “authorized” the series of trashy articles (with half baked assertions) against General V.K. Singh in a prominent newspaper published ex Chandigarh. The disclosure left the citizenry amazed including the realization that the PMO was doing this even while the matter was sub judice.

The overall malicious campaign was obviously aimed at forcing General V.K. Singh to throw in the towel in disgust, something that the veteran community too has been vigorously calling for on the web on grounds as to why should General V.K. Singh continue serving under a government that is hell bent on denigrating the office of the Chief of The Army Staff.

Even if General V.K. Singh had resigned in disgust —though it is his personal decision and he still may —the coast could have still been clear to implement the ‘Line of Succession’ so methodically worked out and put on course since 2006. The Vice Chief of Army Staff would possibly have been made to officiate. The two intervening senior incumbents hindering the ‘Line of Succession’ would possibly have been offered lucrative ambassadorships / governorships (as was apparently being offered to General V.K. Singh repeatedly by a senior union minister) hoping they would take the bait.

Four years back Mr Narsimhan as Director IB was asked to step down before his service was completed to accommodate someone else on promise of a governorship which the government kept. More recently, Mr K.C. Verma was asked to step down as R&AW Chief before completing his service on promise of being posted as DG NTRO but the post has been given to someone else.

For those who scoff at the ‘Line of Succession’, the following merits attention:
Why did the Military Secretary in 2006 make an illegal issue of the UPSC application when the UPSC had already accepted the Date of Birth of General V.K. Singh as 10 May 1951 decades back?
What further proof of malafide intentions of two former Army Chiefs is required when they deliberately ignore their respective Adjutant General’s records and ask Gen VK Singh to render certificates in “organizational interest’, which in any case have no legal standing for date of birth and would be questioned and inquired into by any court of law?
Why would the Ministry of Defence ignore all correspondence from the Adjutant General’s Branch, which is the authority for service record of officers?
Why did the Attorney General talk of the ‘Line of Succession’?
Why does the Defence Minister say that he has full sympathy with General V.K. Singh but that “his hands are tied”? If he is convinced that General V.K. Singh has been trying to change his date of birth to gain 10 more months in office (an obvious mischief, should that actually be the case) then why does he have “full sympathy” with General V.K. Singh? Who can tie the hands of the Defence Minister of India— orchestrators of the ‘Line of Succession’?
Why does a Prime Minister authorize derogatory media articles against his own Army Chief?

To those who think that General V.K. Singh raked up the issue once he became Army Chief to gain 10 more months of service, it should be pointed out that he became aware of the mischief only in 2006 and has been representing ever since. More importantly, how many officers will say no to a minimum five year ambassadorship / governorship being offered by no less than a union minister in exchange for 10 month tenure as Army Chief? He did not go to court for merely his date of birth but to ensure that this type of mischief is not repeated and to bring in accountability in the Army, Ministry of Defence and to expose the conspirators and co-conspirators.

The Defence Minister has recently stated that the date of birth issue of General V.K. Singh is closed. Far from it, the issue is very much open. The Supreme Court Order actually is in favour of General V.K. Singh, with the GoI letter rejecting his complaint as withdrawn and putting the ball fairly and squarely with the GoI. As of today, the Statutory Complaint of General V.K. Singh has not been disposed off by the GoI. Logically, GoI cannot issue retirement orders of General V.K. Singh without replying to his statutory complaint, albeit anything can be expected from this government.

GoI must reply immediately to the statutory Complaint of General V.K. Singh which is now with them for over last six months — their 30 December 2011 rejection letter having been withdrawn. This must be done straightaway. Adopting the ostrich-like approach of continue to sit on it, hoping the media will let it remain dormant and no one will RTI a response, would be naïve.

With reference to the diatribes against General V.K. Singh being engineered in the media, the powers that be would do well to note that in November last year a Supreme Court Bench declined to stay the Bombay High Court's interim direction of September 28 to a television channel to deposit with the High Court registry Rs.20 crore (in six weeks) and furnish a bank guarantee of a nationalised bank for Rs.80 crore (in 10 weeks) in connection with a defamation case of justice P.B Sawant.

Personally, I have met General V.K.Singh not more than five to six times in my entire service and that too not in an individual capacity. Last I met him was during the Army Day Parade on 15 January 2010 and I am not in communication with him. What agitates the vast majority of serving and veteran fraternity, including me, is the manner in which the office of the Army Chief is being dealt with to facilitate the ‘Line of Succession’ worked out and played on since 2006 — a concept applicable to an oligarchy or dictatorship but dangerous for democracy.

It is time the President of India — Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces — stepped in to ensure what is prescribed in the Constitution of India, thus providing justice to General V.K. Singh. There is still time!

Lt Gen Prakash C. Katoch, PVSM, UYSM, AVSM, SC is a Special Forces veteran of the Indian army

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?279923


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 21:40 
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Thanks VikramD


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 21:46 
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Delhi Police releases its careful analysis of the bomb used on the Israeli embassy vehicle, without having to resort to calling the Army Bomb Squad...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... ttarget=no

Quote:
NEW DELHI: On Tuesday, police commissioner B K Gupta told reporters he had spent hours researching sticky bombs. Officers then distributed printouts which ostensibly explained what a sticky bomb is.

The printout stated, "Sticky bombs are a type of explosives crafted from one Bomb and 5 Gel. At point blank range, it can cause a total of 100 damage to mobs and 200 to the player". It also listed 'Statistics' as: Damage 100, Max Stack 50, Shoot Speed 5, Use Time 24, Sell 1.

These seem unusual ingredients for making a bomb. A net search showed the matter seemed to have been downloaded from Terraria Wiki, used by gamers who play online game Terraria.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

And this is real...


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 21:53 
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^^^^ Vikramd post

Quote:
The Defence Minister has recently stated that the date of birth issue of General V.K. Singh is closed. Far from it, the issue is very much open. The Supreme Court Order actually is in favour of General V.K. Singh, with the GoI letter rejecting his complaint as withdrawn and putting the ball fairly and squarely with the GoI. As of today, the Statutory Complaint of General V.K. Singh has not been disposed off by the GoI. Logically, GoI cannot issue retirement orders of General V.K. Singh without replying to his statutory complaint, albeit anything can be expected from this government.

GoI must reply immediately to the statutory Complaint of General V.K. Singh which is now with them for over last six months — their 30 December 2011 rejection letter having been withdrawn. This must be done straightaway. Adopting the ostrich-like approach of continue to sit on it, hoping the media will let it remain dormant and no one will RTI a response, would be naïve.


Now what will happen, in case VKS completes his tenure as per 1950 DOB. can GOI terminate his services considering the above article and force his retirement.


As I stated earlier in this post
Quote:
VKS could have chosen the easier route of getting some GOI posts and enjoy his retirement days with lots of fame/money etc.
But he chose differently according to his convictions and his sense of fairplay.
whatever may be the end result, he will have tough time later. GOI might create some difficulties for him post retirement. he will be a commoner, will have trouble.
Considering his fight against the mandarins it is truly a david vs goliath fight.
If he wins, nothing much except his name sullied by @#$%^ you know them.
If he loses much worse.


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 22:26 
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anything can happen

as the GOIs supporters have made it clear - its the government's perogative and if they have to hammer down and show who's boss- they should

else we will be pakiland!!!


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 22:31 
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Army chief happy over resolution of age issue

Video http://www.timesnow.tv/videoshow/4395982.cms

Quote:
A week after he lost his battle in the Supreme Court on the age issue, Army Chief Gen V K Singh today (February 16) said the controversy was "behind" everyone and he was happy over its resolution.

"I think there was no controversy. They are all behind us. I have already said this. We are happy at the way things have been dealt with," he said when asked whether the controversy over his age back in India was over or not.

"I followed a particular path for a particular aim and that was achieved. So there is no controversy if you are meaning or implying a particular controversy," he told Times Now.


Last edited by Austin on 16 Feb 2012 22:36, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 22:33 
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See even the Army Chief is happy with the outcome , he certainly seem to have been won over by SC orders.


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 22:38 
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Surya wrote:
anything can happen

as the GOIs supporters have made it clear - its the government's perogative and if they have to hammer down and show who's boss- they should

else we will be pakiland!!!


Which means psychologically, mentally, culturally, basic value wise an Indian soldier is exactly the same as a Paki soldier.


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 22:47 
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some scenarios-
1) VKS resigns -
a) what will be the dob of VKS then, will the GOI say it is 1950 despite evidence to the contrary.
b) GOI says it is 1951since he has resigned.
More likely it will be 1950 only.

2) VKS is awaiting GOI retirement orders. Logically the GOI has to reply to his complaint. what will it say- -> dob is 1950 and issues orders.

VKS is losing both ways.
Must have been a tough in fighting the GOI. :(

Sad that his dob which is no controversy and not his fault should have shameless jackass*s hounding him.


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 22:49 
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Austin wrote:
See even the Army Chief is happy with the outcome , he certainly seem to have been won over by SC orders.


The channel in question which broke this story needs to have it's head examined. It seems they jumped him at his hotel in the UK and his non-commital answers are being touted as 'first comments of the Chief post the Hearing. This sort of journalism needs to be condemed in the strongest terms.


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 07:13 
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And one can only imagine the repercussions of a serving Chief questioning or criticizing the SC or the GoI while on an official visit to a foreign country.


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 14:12 
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Anoop wrote:
And one can only imagine the repercussions of a serving Chief questioning or criticizing the SC or the GoI while on an official visit to a foreign country.


Which is exactly why he was asked the question there.


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 18:57 
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Anyone seen what the Generals daughter has told outlook?
She is reported to have blamed JJSingh.


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 19:08 
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Aah, here it is. the General opening another front?

http://www.firstpost.com/india/age-row- ... 17210.html


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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2012 12:47 
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From Orbat.Com (http://orbat.com/)

Quote:
India doubling forces in remote corner of China front Our trusty South Asian Editor predicted this a while ago, but now its really happening. The Indian government is requisitioning several thousand acres of land in the state of Uttrakhand, which used to be Western Uttar Pradesh till it was split off because the residents of ten mountain districts (a district is equivalent to a US county) wanted their own state and Uttar Pradesh was simply too big to administer properly.

·To the right of Uttrakhand is Nepal, and to the left is the Indian state of Himachal Pradesh. So since the post-1962 sino-Indian War buildup, the garrison in this area has consisted of an independent mountain brigade (based in Joshimath)and a mountain division (6 Mountain Division-HQ in Bareilly) that has also served as an Army HQ reserve. Everytime there is a mobilization emergency, the division leaves the area, because really nothing is happening opposite. China looks to have a border regiment and that’s it. Yawn City and all that. Zzzzzzz.

·Well, no longer. India previously announced it was raising a new mountain brigade, based almost smack on the China border(Chinese raised the bogey of border dispute first in this area in 1956 related to Barahoti Pass in this area. The two (I) Mountain brigades will cover this axis. So, IA has defensive as well as offensive capability). Now steps are being taken to raise a new division (This has not been announced in national media, IMO), so that in a few years there will be eight brigades and not four (2 x (I) Mountain Brigades+2 x Mountain Divisions@3 bdes each), and because India is also raising fresh mountain divisions for other sectors, the existing division is less likely to be called away on mobilization.

·Given China’s hubris, we doubt very much Beijing devoted any thought to its provocations along the Tibet border for years and years, after India thought it had a peace deal that would lead to demilitarization of the border. But now there is stark proof that for no reason at all, gaining nothing, the Chinese have created for themselves a major headache in a sector most people didn’t know existed. Aside from the plan to get to 8 brigades, India is to construct 13 new forward helipads, and is pushing roads through everywhere. Slowly, yes, but they’re being built. A new corps HQ will inevitably follow, so in a few years there will be 55,000 Indian troops in this region alone. And that’s not counting the very many border forces battalions, which are also being increased.

· That this division is to be raised makes it almost certain that the division the Indian Army has asked for Himachal Pradesh will also be raised.(This will be for the Sugar Sector in HP and NH-22 ends short of LAC - further ahead lies the Shipki-La pass on the LAC - withus but claimed by Chinese[url]: http://www.mapsofindia.com/driving-dire ... s/NH22.gif[/url]) Right now there’s the equivalent of an understrength infantry brigade, deployed more as a show of sovereignty than with any intent of fighting. Himachal used to have a division (4th Mountain Division - converted into Infantry Division and now, a RAPID with 1 Corps), positioned after the 1962 War, but it left the area over forty years ago for the plains and never returned because the China threat was supposed to have receded. So here there will be a tripling of forces. Two new divisions for the Northeast are in place, two more have been approved, and two for the Northwest are also in the works.

· China doesn’t take India with any degree of seriousness and believes India will never start anything because it lacks the political will. China might like to remember 1986-87, when it was forced to send no less than eight divisions and several independent regiments to reinforce opposite Northeast India, in the dead of winter, because it looked like not only was India going to jump Chinese positions in a village which India claimed, it might just extend its offensive and push for Gyantase and Shigatse, if not Lhasa. Sooner or later PLA GHQ or its equivalent is going to turn around to the government and say: “Dude, there’s 200,000 more troops on our Tibet border, adding to the 250,000 plus that were already deployed or in hand in theatre. That makes 450,000 troops, and isn’t it time we stopped brushing off the lack of intent, and look at the capability?”. For many, many years China has garrisoned Tibet with just two regular brigades. Can Beijing really take the chance that one day India might just start getting ideas?

·By the way, here’s something that Editor has never bothered mentioning because he thought it was so obvious it didn’t need mention till he had a conversation with a visitor from the Indian Army. Suddenly Editor realized that even the Army, by and large, doesn’t understand that the Indian Army can and will deploy its regular infantry divisions against China if needed. It isn’t going to be a question of just 15-16 mountain divisions that China will have to face. The number of divisional HQs that will shift will be limited to perhaps 2-3. But there will be any number of brigades that will arrive to reinforce the mountain divisions.


· Very smart, China. Great diplomacy, creating a major threat where none existed before because you can’t control your bloated ego and have to push everyone around.

· As a historical note: in 1962, China has 2 1/3rd divisions available for operations opposite Towang, which was held by a single brigade. Now India has nine brigades available for the same sector – before reinforcements arrive( 4 Corps AOR). India had a single brigade in the Walong sector. Now there are three divisions for operations in this sector e( 3 Corps AOR).– again, before reinforcements arrive. In Ladakh India had a single brigade. It now has seven, again, before reinforcements arrive. China in 1962 had nine divisions – albeit smaller than Indian divisions – in Tibet. Now it has two brigades.


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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2012 15:43 
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Remember the Campa Orange jingle:
We're all in it together, for the fun of it......

Letter written by Subramaniam Swamy to the CBI a couple of months ago!

Mr.A.P.Singh
Director, CBI, CGO Complex
New Delhi 110013.

Dec 7, 2011


Dear Mr. Singh:

Please refer to the Written Complaint that I had submitted on November 28, 2011 to CBI through you, and on behalf the Action Committee Against Corruption in India (ACACI).


This letter is by way of additional information relating to the disclosure of offences committed under the Prevention of Corruption Act (PCA).


First, is the information from an article published inSchweitzer Illustrate in its November 1991 issue, which magazine is a highly respected and widely circulated magazine in German language, and published in Switzerland. This information discloses that the former Prime Minister, Mr.Rajiv Gandhi (now deceased), had about $2 billion in secret bank accounts in Switzerland, which is clearly disproportionate to his known sources of income as per his affidavit filed with his nomination papers upon becoming a candidate for Lok Sabha elections in 1991. This attracts section 13(1)(d) of the PCA. Although the information is two decades old, but you are aware that there is no time limitation for corruption cases under the PCA. Also even if Rajiv Gandhi is now deceased, his likely beneficiaries are his wife, Sonia, and two children, two of whom are public servants.


The second information is from Dr.Yevgenia Albats, a Russian scholar, holding a Harvard Ph.D and who was a member of the Inquiry Commission into KGB Activitieswhich Commission was appointed by President Yeltsin of Russia. She subsequently authored a book titled: A State Within a State: KGB in Soviet Union.In that book, she disclosed the File Numbers contain evidence of the KGB payments to the then Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi and his family members. This disclosure was confirmed by the spokesperson of the FIS, the KGB's successor spy agency (equivalent of our IB and RAW combined) in a Press Conference in 1992, and reported by The Hindu, Times of India, and UNI. In 2002, the then External Affairs Minister Mr.Jaswant Singh had taken this matter up with the Russians and was informed by the Russian authorities that the GOI may send a senior representative of the RAW to Moscow to obtain authenticated records of KGB payments to Rajiv Gandhi and family.


Third, I have information that Mr.Rahul Gandhi was detained in Boston's Logan Airport by US law enforcement authorities sometime in the later half of September 2001.He was in possession of $160,000 in cash which he did not declare upon arrival. US Customs require all amounts above $10,000 in cash to be declared, and if not every $10,000 instalment carries a 8 year imprisonment, if convicted. This means Rahul Gandhi was indictable for a prison term of 144 years. However, the then Principal Secretary to the PM, Mr.Brijesh Mishra, to my knowledge, had intervened with US Secretary of State, and arrangements were made get to Mr.Gandhi released.


In his deposition to the US authorities before returning to London Mr.Gandhi had declared that the money was his, and he had drawn it out of his secret account in Pictet Bank, head quartered in Zurich, Switzerland. I may mention here later that while studying in Rollins College, Winter Park, Florida, USA, Mr.Gandhi paid his Tuition and other fees to the College from his secret accounts.


Hence, if you record these informations as part of the FIR, then after doing the preliminary inquiries that the CBI is entitled to Letters Rogatory may be obtained. The ACACI then would be pleased to assist the CBI in its investigation abroad armed with these LRs.

Yours sincerely,

(SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY)


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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2012 16:01 
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nelson wrote:
Aah, here it is. the General opening another front?

http://www.firstpost.com/india/age-row- ... 17210.html


The above version is truncated from the Outlook story. The actual article is at
http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?279938

May be a case of shutting the door after the horse has bolted, for most will probably see it as a foot note to the entire event. It certainly squares up the previous two Chiefs.


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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2012 18:11 
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Army to issue retirement note to Gen VK Singh‎

Guess the gubermand isnt going to wait till the statutory complaint is re-disposed.


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PostPosted: 18 Feb 2012 19:10 
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Location: Frontier India : Nemo me impune lacessit
SaiK wrote:
why limit daksh to only anti-insurgency. I see a wider role, for even an advanced version of it, with chained up command to a battalion. leads a battalion with a bunch of daksh, and forward movements are seen in advanced, and perhaps cleansed off minor hickups.


It can be. One thing at a time. Let them see what is immediate need. it seems to be recon/ bomb diffusion/ limiting insurgency causality etc.

Daksh is a general plat form. if you see the article Daksh AMPMP to get LMG, Grenade and night vision to fight terror, it has few points

1) equipping lmg/grenade thrower etc: a replacement of Daksh ROV functions
2) Better engine and battery
3) Target Tracking System / (expected to) handle even the fast moving targets : very critical. This will set the tone for all future infantry variants. This happens to be the reason why GMR will take two more years to fructify.
4) Tyres for cross country

If the four parameters are achieved, then GMR can get more heavier and armour reinforced to suite a battle field.


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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012 19:36 
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Just to keep the ball in view, because it is not dead as yet.

http://thestatesman.net/index.php?optio ... 7&catid=38

The author takes all names at appropriate places without any refrain.


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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012 19:50 
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nelson wrote:
Just to keep the ball in view, because it is not dead as yet.

http://thestatesman.net/index.php?optio ... 7&catid=38

The author takes all names at appropriate places without any refrain.


Some excerpts-
Quote:
The ball is now in the court of defence minister Antony who had ordered a junior-level officer in his ministry to write to the Adjutant General to change the date of birth of General Singh to 10 May 1950, when the matter was sub judice. The letter had to be withdrawn on order of the Supreme Court. The Military Secretary, Lt.-Gen. GM Nair, in his letter A/4501/01(GEN/MS(1) dated 01 July 2011, to the defence minister, marked ‘confidential,’ wrote: On scrutiny of past records pertaining to Selection Boards, it has been observed that the MDSs pertaining to Gen. VK Singh which were drawn up at the time of his consideration for promotion to select ranks reflect the date of birth of the General Officer as 10 May 1951.” The letter goes on to give his promotion as Major-General on 25 October 2001, Lieutenant-General on 18/19 September 2003, and as Army Commander on 30 September 2005, all based on his actual date of birth. The letter said that copies of the relevant MDS sheets are available with the ministry of defence for verification, and added for good measure that “this has been brought to the notice of the defence minister.” This document, a photocopy of which is available with The Statesman, makes it clear that till Manmohan Singh became Prime Minister, there was no dichotomy between the records maintained by the Military Secretary branch and the Adjutant General branch pertaining to the date of birth of VK Singh.
The plot began to thicken when Gen. Joginder Jaswant Singh of Maratha Light Infantry took over as Chief of the Army Staff on 1 February 2005. He was the first-ever Sikh to rise to the top in the Indian Army. In the preceding months, as Gen. NC Vij’s tenure was coming to an end, there was speculation that JJ Singh would be superseded by Lt.-Gen. Shammi Mehta, an Armoured Corps officer. The Shiromani Gurdwara Prabanthak Committee issued a strongly worded statement favouring JJ Singh which was prominently featured in The Tribune and a few other newspapers. The Tribune was used again, this time to pillory Gen. VK Singh.
For the first time in the history of the Indian Army, the communal card came into play, though the SGPC statement might not have had any bearing on the Appointments Committee headed by Manmohan Singh clearing JJ Singh’s elevation to the top slot. Within months of taking over, he plotted a succession plan. That Deepak Kapoor would take over from JJ Singh was well known by then. After Kapoor who would depend on the Selection Board which was to meet towards the end of 2005 to decide on which officers were to be promoted to the Lieutenant-General’s rank.
[u]After working out various permutations and combinations, JJ Singh discovered that VK Singh, who was a Corps Commander by then, would be the obvious choice to succeed Kapoor, but if his tenure could be curtailed to two years, the way could be cleared for Bikram Singh, the present chief of the Eastern Command, to take over in May 2012. At that time, Bikram Singh was not a
front- runner as there were other officers with better credentials ahead of him in the succession pyramid. But they could be sidelined with a bit of deft tweaking. Those to be neutralised included Brigadiers Padam Budhwar and MM Chaudhary, and Majors-General Shujan Chatterjee, AK Singh and Ravi Arora, a gold medalist from the same batch as Bikram Singh. Raising VK Singh’s age issue before his Lieutenant-General Board would have eliminated him from the race and in the process, Bikram Singh too would have been knocked out. For JJ Singh’s succession plan to succeed, VK Singh had to remain in office till 31 May. On 3 May 2006, the Military Secretary branch was asked to rake up VK Singh’s date of birth issue based on an error in his application form at the time of joining the NDA as a teenager, and asked to accept, in writing, that he was born in 1950, with the promise of an inquiry which was never held.
Antony, who is fully aware of all the machinations in the ‘fixing’ of VK Singh’s age, like Pontius Pilate, washed his hands of, pleading helplessness. The only option the army chief is left with is to approach the Supreme Commander, the President of India, for justice. According to Article 143 of the Constitution, the President may seek the advice of the Supreme Court on any issue of public importance. National security demands that the Chief of the Army Staff, who served the nation with utmost honesty and dedication, is not denied justice at the fag end of his distinguished career.


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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012 22:10 
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Sikh general,
It's communal, what happened during the 1971 war. Anybody remember subeg Singh.


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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012 22:31 
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^^
Quote:
After working out various permutations and combinations, JJ Singh discovered that VK Singh, who was a Corps Commander by then, would be the obvious choice to succeed Kapoor, but if his tenure could be curtailed to two years, the way could be cleared for Bikram Singh, the present chief of the Eastern Command, to take over in May 2012. At that time, Bikram Singh was not a
front- runner as there were other officers with better credentials ahead of him in the succession pyramid. But they could be sidelined with a bit of deft tweaking. Those to be neutralised included Brigadiers Padam Budhwar and MM Chaudhary, and Majors-General Shujan Chatterjee, AK Singh and Ravi Arora, a gold medalist from the same batch as Bikram Singh. Raising VK Singh’s age issue before his Lieutenant-General Board would have eliminated him from the race and in the process, Bikram Singh too would have been knocked out. For JJ Singh’s succession plan to succeed, VK Singh had to remain in office till 31 May. On 3 May 2006, the Military Secretary branch was asked to rake up VK Singh’s date of birth issue based on an error in his application form at the time of joining the NDA as a teenager, and asked to accept, in writing, that he was born in 1950, with the promise of an inquiry which was never held.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 03:12 
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Quote:
Bharat Karnad's take on the 'succession plan':

Quote:
The government decides on the criterion to stress — merit or seniority — when filling high level posts. The norm is for the person to be first chosen and for the selection criterion to be trotted out later. Thus, Shyam Saran was elevated as foreign secretary, for instance, on the basis of merit, but his successor, Nirupama Rao, was favoured on the basis of seniority. To decide whom to appoint and why, is entirely the government’s outlook and prerogative. It is the uncertainty attending on the government’s decision that led Punjab politicians to canvas strongly with the government for Lieutenant General J J Singh’s promotion as COAS in 2005. It is, however, a dangerous precedent for the government to accede to an apparently motivated selection by a former COAS.




Both are wrong - SGPC interfering with Army chief's selection, and then the chief (JJ Singh) deliberately favouring someone way down the line.
Given that the SC has side-stepped, how is the error to be corrected? How is JJ Singh to be 'punished' if it is indeed his doing?


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 06:41 
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krisna wrote:
Some excerpts-
Quote:
The plot began to thicken when Gen. Joginder Jaswant Singh of Maratha Light Infantry took over as Chief of the Army Staff on 1 February 2005. [b]He was the first-ever Sikh to rise to the top in the Indian Army. In the preceding months, as Gen. NC Vij’s tenure was coming to an end, there was speculation that JJ Singh would be superseded by Lt.-Gen. Shammi Mehta, an Armoured Corps officer. The Shiromani Gurdwara Prabanthak Committee issued a strongly worded statement favouring JJ Singh which was prominently featured in The Tribune and a few other newspapers. The Tribune was used again, this time to pillory Gen. VK Singh.

For the first time in the history of the Indian Army, the communal card came into play, though the SGPC statement might not have had any bearing on the Appointments Committee headed by Manmohan Singh clearing JJ Singh’s elevation to the top slot. Within months of taking over, he plotted a succession plan. That Deepak Kapoor would take over from JJ Singh was well known by then. After Kapoor who would depend on the Selection Board which was to meet towards the end of 2005 to decide on which officers were to be promoted to the Lieutenant-General’s rank.
[u]After working out various permutations and combinations, JJ Singh discovered that VK Singh, who was a Corps Commander by then, would be the obvious choice to succeed Kapoor, but if his tenure could be curtailed to two years, the way could be cleared for Bikram Singh, the present chief of the Eastern Command, to take over in May 2012. At that time, Bikram Singh was not afront- runner as there were other officers with better credentials ahead of him in the succession pyramid. But they could be sidelined with a bit of deft tweaking. Those to be neutralised included Brigadiers Padam Budhwar and MM Chaudhary, and Majors-General Shujan Chatterjee, AK Singh and Ravi Arora, a gold medalist from the same batch as Bikram Singh. Raising VK Singh’s age issue before his Lieutenant-General Board would have eliminated him from the race and in the process, Bikram Singh too would have been knocked out. For JJ Singh’s succession plan to succeed, VK Singh had to remain in office till 31 May. On 3 May 2006, the Military Secretary branch was asked to rake up VK Singh’s date of birth issue based on an error in his application form at the time of joining the NDA as a teenager, and asked to accept, in writing, that he was born in 1950, with the promise of an inquiry which was never held.


If you ask me personally, the communal card is part and parcel of all human societies and armed forces are not immune no matter how much we like to think otherwise. And this won't be the first or last time it comes into play. The Brits, whose traditions were added to that of Indian soldiery used the communal card as it suited them. Given the Congress's role in the 1980s Punjab politics I would not expect the incumbent GoI to do anything different if given another chance. I did mention something in an earlier page but no one wanted to listen.

As a rhetorical question, would anyone be able to list out differences between Chanakya and Dharma?


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 11:47 
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krisna wrote:
Some excerpts-
Quote:

Gen. Joginder Jaswant Singh of Maratha Light Infantry took over as Chief of the Army Staff on 1 February 2005. [b]He was the first-ever Sikh to rise to the top in the Indian Army.



Isn't it surprising that the Indian army would have its first Sikh army chief 57 years after independence - given that the Sikhs make up 10–15% of all ranks in the Indian Army and 20% of its officers?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh

It may be interesting to examine the list of Indian army chiefs since independence and their ethnic backgrounds


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 12:01 
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After reading Mrinalini Singh's eloquent and moving tribute to her brave and honourable father, I can only wish
that all of us had been blessed with such wonderful offspring, as the good General has been.

It is surprising that other BR forum members have not written on this, though I am sure many will be sharing my thoughts.

The credit, of course, goes to General V. K. Singh, Mrs. Singh, and their entire family, for inculcating such fine values in
young Mrinalini.

More power to your pen and to your elbow, Mrinalini.

VKS - blue skies.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 12:19 
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rajrang wrote:
It may be interesting to examine the list of Indian army chiefs since independence and their ethnic backgrounds


That's not a good idea. There's no problem with having plenty of Sikh army chiefs, but when you start ruining careers of good men and dabbling in corrupt deals then it's a downward slope from there.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 13:03 
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Pranav : I fully agree with your viewpoint.

Rajrang : I hope you are not endorsing a "quota" system here. Or propagating some variant of the "martial race"
thesis. Both ideas would be an antithesis of the Republican principles and the ethos on which our armed forces function.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 13:09 
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rajrang wrote:
Isn't it surprising that the Indian army would have its first Sikh army chief 57 years after independence - given that the Sikhs make up 10–15% of all ranks in the Indian Army and 20% of its officers?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh

It may be interesting to examine the list of Indian army chiefs since independence and their ethnic backgrounds


Well when talking of ethnicities calling Gen JJ Singh the first ever Sikh General is painting too broad a brush. Gen Jaswant Joginder Singh Marwah, Lt Gen J S Arora, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh Kohli and CEO Prasar Bharti BS Lalli all belong to a microscopic community of urban trading caste Sikhs or "Bhapas". Traditionally aligned to powers in Delhi since the times of British they have a stellar track record of hard work and rising through the ranks.

Vast majority (more than 80% of the 10-15% of the ranks being talked about) of soldiery comes from rural Jat Sikhs or OBC Sikhs (Mazhabi, Ramgarhias and Kallals) but no army chief so far. They have a historic record of being hostile to Delhi in Mughal and British Times. These combined factoids cover a lot modern history of Indian NW and Indian Army.


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