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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 14:26 
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I believe we are talking about Sikh Indian Army COAS's here (By the way, Lalli is Jatt surname), and not Sikhs in prominent positions. At one time ,after independence, Sikhs made up around 30% of the Indian army, which number was deliberately reduced by the Indian Govt. after Operation Bluestar in 1984. Yes, it is a good question why it took any Sikh (Jatt or otherwise) to be appointed COAS after 57 years of independence. Sikhs were against Delhi during Mughal rule - of course they would be - the Mughals were Muslim invaders of India. Again, the Sikh empire under Maharaja Ranjit Singh was the last to fall under British rule, and the Sikhs were against Delhi under the British, who were foreigners ruling India. There are many Sikh Jatt Generals in the Indian Army today, as in the past, and in my opinion, they do not make it to COAS because they are not easily pliable by the Govt of India and the Indian Govt is wary of a Jatt Sikh's independent fighting spirit and who may not always agree with it. The other likely reason is that Jatt Sikhs are good at what they know best, farming and fighting. Politics is not their forte. "Bhapa" Sikhs, on the other hand, are shopkeepers and tradespeople and very deft at commerce and politics. COAS Gen, J.J. Singh was rewarded with the Governorship of Arunachal Pradesh for his subservience - just like many other COAS' have been in the past. I do not know if Gen. Bikram Singh, the next likely COAS is a Jatt Sikh as his surname is not known to me. If someone knows it, they can use Google to find out.

this type of stereotyping is not acceptable on BR. consider this an informal warning.
Rahul.


Last edited by Rahul M on 21 Feb 2012 08:35, edited 1 time in total.
added comment.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 14:49 
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What is common knowledge, among the people in uniform, is being spoken a bit louder.

http://mrinalsuman.blogspot.in/2012/02/ ... t-its.html


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 14:53 
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Drastic situations demand drastic counter measures. A quote from the above article by Maj Gen Mrinal Suman.

Quote:
The Way Forward

The situation can still be redeemed by two immediate steps. One, the concept of dob-based ‘line of succession’ should be discarded and replaced by merit-based selection by impartial boards for higher ranks in the services. Two, the protégé should voluntarily opt out of the race to the top. It will prove to the environment that he was never a party to the unholy transgression and earn him the respect of troops.

Further, to prevent recurrence of such malafide actions, an impartial enquiry should be conducted of the whole episode. Guilty top brass and the conniving staff officers should be exposed for their unbecoming conduct.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 15:11 
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munna wrote:
Well when talking of ethnicities calling Gen JJ Singh the first ever Sikh General is painting too broad a brush. Gen Jaswant Joginder Singh Marwah, Lt Gen J S Arora, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh Kohli and CEO Prasar Bharti BS Lalli all belong to a microscopic community of urban trading caste Sikhs or "Bhapas". Traditionally aligned to powers in Delhi since the times of British they have a stellar track record of hard work and rising through the ranks.

Vast majority (more than 80% of the 10-15% of the ranks being talked about) of soldiery comes from rural Jat Sikhs or OBC Sikhs (Mazhabi, Ramgarhias and Kallals) but no army chief so far. They have a historic record of being hostile to Delhi in Mughal and British Times. These combined factoids cover a lot modern history of Indian NW and Indian Army.


Wow, my mom's side of the family is all Sikhs and till now I never knew this.

I've just made a few calls and surprise, surprise, the third cog is also a 'Bhapa'.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 15:25 
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SinghSardar wrote:
I believe we are talking about Sikh Indian Army COAS's here (By the way, Lalli is Jatt surname), and not Sikhs in prominent positions. At one time ,after independence, Sikhs made up around 30% of the Indian army, which number was deliberately reduced by the Indian Govt. after Operation Bluestar in 1984. Yes, it is a good question why it took any Sikh (Jatt or otherwise) to be appointed COAS after 57 years of independence. Sikhs were against Delhi during Mughal rule - of course they would be - the Mughals were Muslim invaders of India. Again, the Sikh empire under Maharaja Ranjit Singh was the last to fall under British rule, and the Sikhs were against Delhi under the British, who were foreigners ruling India. There are many Sikh Jatt Generals in the Indian Army today, as in the past, and in my opinion, they do not make it to COAS because they are not easily pliable by the Govt of India and the Indian Govt is wary of a Jatt Sikh's independent fighting spirit and who may not always agree with it. The other likely reason is that Jatt Sikhs are good at what they know best, farming and fighting. Politics is not their forte. "Bhapa" Sikhs, on the other hand, are shopkeepers and tradespeople and very deft at commerce and politics. COAS Gen, J.J. Singh was rewarded with the Governorship of Arunachal Pradesh for his subservience - just like many other COAS' have been in the past. I do not know if Gen. Bikram Singh, the next likely COAS is a Jatt Sikh as his surname is not known to me. If someone knows it, they can use Google to find out.


Cut the crap about Sikh Officers/=pliant and hence, no Sikh COAS. As is quite evident in VKS case, the DOB/Merit/Seniority are the criterion for becoming the COAS. Till date, except for two cases - Lt. General PS Bhagat and Lt. General Sinha - the COAS has been the seniormost army commander. So, there is no conspiracy theory here. Coming to GOI reducing the number of Sikhs in the IA, well, please go back and check your facts. the Sikh Regiment and Sikh LI - the largest employer of Sikhs in IA - are there in all their glory. Except two battalions of Sikh Regiment which were disbanded due to mutiny, the number has remained intact. As for the officer cadre, there is no limit in terms of ethnicity/regiona/religion.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 15:29 
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^^^I don't agree that CAOS should be picked up on merit and we should do away with appointing the seniormost Army Commander as COAS. Any such move will open a can of worms and give immense leverage to the babus and politicians to play favorite. The foundation of such a selection process relies on complete honesty and transparency in decision making - something which is in short supply in MOD and GOI. Just imagine, if with the present structure someone could play favorites, what will happen if GOI/MOD was to get discretionary powers? The filters till the rise to the position of Army Commander should be strong enough to ensure meritorious candidates get through.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 15:40 
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I agree with rohitvats in the above post; in the pool of top 4-5 candidates for the Chiefs position, the institution must strive to ensure that any and all meet the competence requirements for the post.

I would like to think that from a competence perspective that is already the case -- by and large, barring a few nasty episodes.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 15:56 
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What is with the govt, Army and dragging to Supreme Court?

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20120220/nation.htm#6


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 16:11 
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The letter below was written by General K. Sundarji in 1986. How true it sounds...no wonder, he was such a intellectual giant.

Quote:
General K Sundarji, PVSM, ADC

Army Headquarters, New Delhi-110 001

1 Feb 86

Dear Brother Officer,

1. It is imperative that we have a totally combat effective Army to support the revitalised India of tomorrow in her rightful place in the world. This involves getting the ‘man-machine mix’ just right, improving the quality of both and placing them in a structure which will be effective in the battlefield milieu of the Nineties and the early decades of 2000. It is an exercise as exciting as it is challenging and I am fully confident that we will succeed.

2. Briefly mentioning the ‘machine’, we have thus far modernised only by discrete changes of weapons systems and equipment. We were also dependent mostly on imported equipment, which apart from not being designed to suit our exact requirements, were also not ‘state of the art’ and at least a generation behind those used by more modern armies. Much of this has changed and is fast changing. Our R & D has come of age and having had a close look at the scene for some years, I can assure you that we are on the verge of take-off. There are still some problems of translation of R & D into production, but these are also being solved fast. Therefore, the time has now come for us to take a total look at technology, threats, tactics and organisations in order to restructure our Army and develop doctrine for the future. This is in hand, and want each one of you to be involved in the process.

3. However, no amount of modernisation of arms, equipment, tactics and organisations can produce results unless we have the right kind of man in the right state of mind, manning the system. And that is what this letter of mine is about.

4. The fact that the Army is one of the national institutions which has, comparatively speaking, weathered the post-independence years and yet remains effective, should not make us complacent. Field Marshal Cariappa used to say, "Good officers - good Army; bad officers - bad Army". This is as true today as it was then. We should, therefore look at ourselves first and be not only frank but hypercritical. As a whole, the Corps of Officers has lost much of its self esteem, pride and elan; it is becoming increasingly careerist, opportunist and sycophantic; standards of integrity have fallen and honour and patriotism are becoming unfashionable. Paradoxically, all this is happening, while in the narrow sense, professional competence has been going up at all levels since 1947. Broad-based though our intake has become, our young officers have proved in every action which they have fought, that they are brave and lead from the front - our officer casualty ratio in every action testifies to this. Where then, are we going wrong?

5. First, let us look at ourselves -- the senior officers; most of us are senior to some of the others and so this includes almost all of us. We have obviously NOT set the right example. Many of us have not professionally kept ourselves uptodate, doctrinally or technologically; we have felt that that we have ‘got it made’, and rested on our oars; we do not read enough; we do not think enough, and some of course, have been promoted well beyond their capability! In the practise of our profession, we have not insisted on standards being maintained and turn our eyes away from irregularities (living in a glass house?); we have not been tolerant of dissent during discussion and encourage sycophancy (a result of our having ‘switched off’ professionally?) we have not been accepting any mistakes (due to hankering after personal advancement?), thus encouraging our juniors to either do nothing worthwhile or to oversupervise their juniors, who in turn are not allowed to develop professionally or mature as men. This leads to frustration. Finally, some have perhaps unthinkingly developed a yen for 5-star culture and ostentation which flows from new-rich values in our society, where money is the prime indicator of success and social position. This adoption of mercenary values in an organisation like the Army which depends for its elan on values like honour, duty and country above self, is disastrous for its elan and for the self-esteem of the individual in it. And once we start thinking of ourselves as third class citizens, it is not long before our civilian brethren take us at our own valuation, and some of them perhaps not without a touch of glee!

6. I am not suggesting that woefully inadequate pay and poor compensation packages for hard and turbulent service conditions, and being forced to live slummily with a poor quality of life do not prevent the development of elan and self-esteem. They do. It is also a fact that the overall compensation package of the servicemen is poor and has deteriorated rapidly over the years. So is it a fact that the present dispensation is inequitable as far as the armed forces are concerned as compared to their peers in other government services. These facts have been brought forcefully to the notice of the Pay Commission and the Government and I will continue to press hard for a fair and equitable deal. I would also like to add that all my contacts with the authorities so far, have convinced me that they are sympathetically aware of our problems. The Prime Minister himself is aware of the psychological problems caused by the unwarranted and continued degradation of service officers in the Warrant of Precedence. He has ordered that this problem be analysed and put up to him. But to tell you all this is not the purpose of this letter; I want to dwell on what we can do, in-house, to increase the elan and self-esteem of the Officer Corps.

7. The bed-rock of elan is the professional competence of individuals and leaders, and the faith, confidence and pride in the effectiveness of the group - the section upwards, to the Army as a whole. In developing professional competence, I would like to emphasise developing an active technological curiosity without which one cannot cope with the battlefield of tomorrow. I want that we read more and seriously, think more and seriously, discuss more and seriously and write more and seriously about professional matters. This last, has been inhibited by our exaggerated and self-defeating system of security classifications and centralised clearance requirements. I intend putting this right speedily. As regards developing group effectiveness, we have to do much more towards making our training mission-oriented, interesting, competitive and effective inspite of the various constraints of which we are well aware. We should certainly avoid training for training’s sake which not only gets to be boring but moves further and further away from the realities of battle conditions. Let us not get to the mentality of the British Colonel of the regular army who is said to have remarked on 11 Nov 1918, "Thank God the war is over; now we can get back to some serious soldiering"!

8. All of us talk about ‘Officer Like Qualities’ and about being officers and gentlemen. I am not sure whether to many of us these terms means the same thing. Being a gentlemen does not mean Westernisation and becoming a poor imitation of a ‘White Sahib’; it does not mean a tie and a jacket or the ability to handle a knife and fork just so! It refers to the ‘Sharafat’ that is ingrained in the best of Indian culture; of honour and integrity; of putting the interests of the county, the Army, the unit and one’s subordinates before one’s own; of doggedness in defeat; of magnanimity in victory; of sympathy for the underdog; of a certain standard of behaviour and personal conduct in all circumstances; of behaving correctly towards one’s seniors, juniors and equals. I am very concerned about the increasing sycophancy towards seniors which unless checked will corrode the entire system. Much of this, I realise, is due to the pernicious system of recompense and financial advancement being totally linked to higher ranks. These are of necessity limited due to functional compulsions, and which notwithstanding cadre reviews, are microscopic compared to prospects of our peers in other Government services. And finally, prospects of promotion in rank, being totally dependent on the reports of the seniors. I am hopeful that the introduction of the ‘Running Pay Band’, which would offer equitable prospects without being fully tied to ranks, would break this vicious circle and help us to develop strong back-bones and guts. I would like to make a point regarding those officers who are unfortunate not to be cleared for promotion to various selection ranks. Barring a very small minority, the bulk of them have not been cleared, not because they are not good, but because the system functionally cannot absorb them in a higher rank, and generally it is a difficult choice. In any of the civil services, these officers would have passed through their respective selection grades with ease. The fact that they are retained in the Service upto the ages of 50, 52, 54 or 56 depending upon their rank, is not an act of philanthropy, but because the Army needs them for a vital function. They are not discards or deadwood; they are the salt of the earth and are required to lead companies, squadrons and batteries in war and it is at this level that actions are won or lost and fill equally vital positions in the various higher ranks at which they have got blocked. A running pay band will recompense them for the job they continue to do well and also restore their self-esteem.

9. On the symbolic and psychological plane, I would like to see much less of obsequious and compulsive ‘sirring’. A ‘Sir’ on the first meeting for the day ought to be adequate, followed up in later conversation by ‘Major’ or ‘Colonel’ or ‘General’ as the case may be. I am not suggesting familiarity or impertinence - seniors ought to be treated with due respect and courtesy but cringing must be avoided.

10. On the part of the seniors, there is an unfortunate tendency today of more or less sticking to one’s own rank level even in social intercourse and not mixing adequately with junior officers. This must be put right. We cannot afford to have a caste-system within the Officer Corps. In dealings with peers and juniors also, courtesy, consideration and good manners are equally essential. There is none so disgusting as a person who boot-licks the senior, boots the junior and cuts the throats of his peers. I also notice that of late there has been a regrettable communication gap developing between officers and men. I attribute this primarily to selfishness on the part of the officers and not caring enough about the men. This must be corrected. At all levels, we must insist that we live up to the Chetwodeian motto.

11. There is a lot that we can do to improve our quality of life. The standards of officers’ messes in all areas have deteriorated badly. Dust, dirt and grime, sloppily turned out mess staff, chipped and cracked crockery, unpolished furniture and silver etc, are more and more in evidence. A pseudo-plush decor is attempted, with expensive and garish curtains and upholstery, wall to wall carpeting and so on; these cannot compensate for lack of care, attention to detail and maintenance of standards; nor can aerosol room fresheners substitute for fresh air and cleanliness. Messes are generally run down and seedy on a daily basis and though special efforts are made to spruce them up for special occasions (generally following the aerosol route) the lack of standards still comes through. This must be put right by the painstaking method of insisting on standards. We must keep the messes traditional without opting for a 5-star decor. The standard of food is generally poor and lacking in variety, not because the ingredients are not available but because of lack of attention to organisation and poor training of cooks. With free rations, there is no reason as to why we cannot spend a little on training our cooks and modernising our kitchens. While on the quality of life, I must mention that by custom and usage of service, some privileges do go with added responsibility and senior rank, and I am sure that none would grudge these if used sensibly. However, in some cases senior officers tend to get delusions of grandeur and overdo their privileges on a Moghul style. This is bad and must stop. Otherwise privileges themselves might be withdrawn.

12. We must encourage our officers to make full use of the opportunities that the Service provides of developing a wide range of interests. We serve in all parts of the country, including inaccessible areas, to get where civilians have to invest in money and effort. We have the advantage of infrastructure available country-wide. Apart from opportunities for all kinds of adventure activities, interests in astronomy, photography, fishing, wild life, bird-watching, conservation and so on can be cultivated with little expense. There is a lot going for life in the Service and we must make the most of it.

13. Let us all resolve that we will :-

(a) Shed the dead weight of mediocrity and strive for excellence, each one in his own sphere.

(b) Hold fast to all that is best in our traditions and the finest in values, while doing away with the useless and meaningless.

(c) Avoid ostentation.

(d) Not sell our souls for a good ACR and promotion.

(e) Constantly enhance and update our professional competence.

(f) Sensibly decentralise authority and responsibility.

(g) Permit maximum initiative to our subordinates, and accept a fair quota of honest mistakes as necessary payment for their professional growth and maturity.

(h) Encourage dissent and new ideas at the policy formulation and discussion stage and insist on implicit obedience in the right spirit, post-decision, at the execution stage.

(j) Cultivate a justifiable pride in ourselves, our units, formations, the Army and the Country.

(k) And finally, live up to the motto:

"The safety, honour and welfare of your Country come first, always and everytime. The honour, welfare and comfort of the men you command come next. Your own ease, comfort and safety come last always and everytime".

14. Before I close, a word to our professional cynics! I can almost hear some say, "Well, we have known all this for quite a while but what’s been done? I’ll believe that something is going to be done when I see something happening on the ground"! As a people, thus far, we have generally been waiting for initiatives from on top; for neatly gift-wrapped solutions from ‘authority’; we have waited for the ‘Sarkar’ or ‘Bhup Singh’ or whoever, to do it. I put it to you, that YOU have to do something about it too. We have everything -- the brains, the bravery, the technology, the skills, the ability -- all we have to do is to get YOU moving and ‘Get our Act together’ and there is no stopping us!

God Speed!

Yours sincerely,

General K Sundarji


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 16:21 
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nelson wrote:
What is with the govt, Army and dragging to Supreme Court?

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20120220/nation.htm#6


Just when you think GoI can't go any lower, they surprise us again! Pathetic. They worry less the zillions stashed up in swizz banks, but care so much about 5% more given to 2000 ex service men with disability. These are people who went out of their free will and patriotism to do the sacrifice they did.. but no.. 5% matters more for the govt.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 18:10 
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Indian Army helps Kashmiri disabled to get back on their feet


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 23:48 
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Jaybhatt wrote:
Pranav : I fully agree with your viewpoint.

Rajrang : I hope you are not endorsing a "quota" system here. Or propagating some variant of the "martial race"
thesis. Both ideas would be an antithesis of the Republican principles and the ethos on which our armed forces function.



No I am not endorsing a quota system.

Please keep in mind that the primary force that protects India, its culture, its very existence is the IA. So we have to take a dispassionate view of how it is run. Keep also in mind that foreigners have ruled India for much of the last several centuries. Often this was possible because of military defeats suffered by defending "Indian" armies. With this historical background, it is prudent and critical that we "reward" demonstrated track record of fighting abilities of certain groups in the Indian population. That is the bottom line! Some of the so called "martial races" have a demonstrated track record that others have not yet established to a similar magnitude. Given a few more centuries maybe others also will, but that will have to be a gradual process. By "similar magnitude" I mean that certain groups have demonstrated in the hundreds and thousands repeatedly for centuries their willingness and ability to fight (eg: Rajputs). We should be grateful to them. India would not be in its present cultural form but for them. Therefore people from these backgrounds need to play a key role and the IA is largely following this outlook. As a patriotic Indian, you would agree that the survival of India is more important than the "principles" that you are referring to. India lives in a bad neighborhood!


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 00:01 
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rohitvats wrote:
SinghSardar wrote:
I believe we are talking about Sikh Indian Army COAS's here (By the way, Lalli is Jatt surname), and not Sikhs in prominent positions. At one time ,after independence, Sikhs made up around 30% of the Indian army, which number was deliberately reduced by the Indian Govt. after Operation Bluestar in 1984. Yes, it is a good question why it took any Sikh (Jatt or otherwise) to be appointed COAS after 57 years of independence. Sikhs were against Delhi during Mughal rule - of course they would be - the Mughals were Muslim invaders of India. Again, the Sikh empire under Maharaja Ranjit Singh was the last to fall under British rule, and the Sikhs were against Delhi under the British, who were foreigners ruling India. There are many Sikh Jatt Generals in the Indian Army today, as in the past, and in my opinion, they do not make it to COAS because they are not easily pliable by the Govt of India and the Indian Govt is wary of a Jatt Sikh's independent fighting spirit and who may not always agree with it. The other likely reason is that Jatt Sikhs are good at what they know best, farming and fighting. Politics is not their forte. "Bhapa" Sikhs, on the other hand, are shopkeepers and tradespeople and very deft at commerce and politics. COAS Gen, J.J. Singh was rewarded with the Governorship of Arunachal Pradesh for his subservience - just like many other COAS' have been in the past. I do not know if Gen. Bikram Singh, the next likely COAS is a Jatt Sikh as his surname is not known to me. If someone knows it, they can use Google to find out.


Cut the crap about Sikh Officers/=pliant and hence, no Sikh COAS. As is quite evident in VKS case, the DOB/Merit/Seniority are the criterion for becoming the COAS. Till date, except for two cases - Lt. General PS Bhagat and Lt. General Sinha - the COAS has been the seniormost army commander. So, there is no conspiracy theory here. Coming to GOI reducing the number of Sikhs in the IA, well, please go back and check your facts. the Sikh Regiment and Sikh LI - the largest employer of Sikhs in IA - are there in all their glory. Except two battalions of Sikh Regiment which were disbanded due to mutiny, the number has remained intact. As for the officer cadre, there is no limit in terms of ethnicity/regiona/religion.



In the "Merit" portion is there a potential for partiality/favoritism?

Sikh regiments and numbers may be fine, however with the expansion of the Indian army, it seems like the percent of Sikhs has fallen. In the late 1960s IA numbered about 828,000 for a while, now it is 1.1 million and growing. I thought that during the 1950s, Sikhs constituted 50% of (a much smaller) IA. Am I correct?


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 00:03 
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rajrang wrote:
Some of the so called "martial races" have a demonstrated track record that others have not yet established to a similar magnitude.


What total unadulterated crap.

This is racism, bigotry and divide and conquer strategy of pisko games of British variety on Indian minds.

Take this horse manure elsewhere boy, this snake oil does not sell in India any more.


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 00:04 
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SinghSardar wrote:
Yes, it is a good question why it took any Sikh (Jatt or otherwise) to be appointed COAS after 57 years of independence.


I still argue that this is a fair question that the BR experts should take the lead to ponder.


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 00:05 
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Sanku wrote:
rajrang wrote:
Some of the so called "martial races" have a demonstrated track record that others have not yet established to a similar magnitude.


What total unadulterated crap.

This is racism, bigotry and divide and conquer strategy of pisko games of British variety on Indian minds.

Take this horse manure elsewhere boy, this snake oil does not sell in India any more.



My apologies I offended you. My apologies also to the others on this forum if I have offended them. But then I honestly thought that for the safety and security of India this question needs to be addressed.


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 00:17 
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Rajrang: It was 100 percent men in the armed forces and now with the opportunity opened up to women the percentage has fallen below that. gasp...it is a conspiracy!!!


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 00:18 
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rajrang wrote:
Sanku wrote:
"rajrang">>Some of the so called "martial races" have a demonstrated track record that others have not yet established to a similar magnitude.

What total unadulterated crap.

This is racism, bigotry and divide and conquer strategy of pisko games of British variety on Indian minds.

Take this horse manure elsewhere boy, this snake oil does not sell in India any more.



My apologies I offended you. My apologies also to the others on this forum if I have offended them. But then I honestly thought that for the safety and security of India this question needs to be addressed.


The safety and security of India lies in putting such racist anti-India British propaganda to rest and tell the purveyors of this exactly the same on their face.

Cheerio, toot toot.

And of course no offense is meant to you either, clearly you have the "best" interests of India at heart.


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 00:20 
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viv wrote:
Rajrang: It was 100 percent men in the armed forces and now with the opportunity opened up to women the percentage has fallen below that. gasp...it is a conspiracy!!!


Not to mention that far from being martial, women are actually a inferior humans too.

How disgusting.

(In case some one does not get it, it is sarcasm)


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 00:40 
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Rajrang, Maybe you want to discuss the ideas with this BSF lady?

viewtopic.php?p=1244413#p1244413


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 02:03 
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Quote:
I thought that during the 1950s, Sikhs constituted 50% of (a much smaller) IA. Am I correct?



Do you have any sources to back this up??

if you start with myths then we will not get anywhere??


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 02:08 
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From personal experiences and some speculation:

1) Till 80's, there was a trend in Punjab (mainly Jatt Sikh families) to have 3 or more sons. So, there were no reservations about sending one (generally eldest ?) into Army. Infact it was a good way to earn more income and also get out of the village as there weren't many other avenues of employment. Plus, Forces commanded a lot of respect from common people in Punjab.

2) 84 and the subsequent militancy changed the mindset (or at least cast a doubt) of many for a considerable period of time.

3) 70's and beyond GOI showed lot of suspicion towards Sikh community. With many thinking them to be suitable only for farming or being a common soldier. Well sikhs being stupid is the basis of all sardar jokes that everyone likes to crack.

4) So in 80's and early 90's there would have been seen with a sense of betrayal.

5) Many sikhs that left India during that period to settle in Canada/USA, must have mentioned about their better standard of living to their kin in India. Seeing those come back all rich and flamboyant made that a good alternative for many just about when many did not want to join the army. Also, by this time the land had been divided so much that maintaining the same standard of living on agriculture became impossible. So Canada it was for many.

6) By late 90's another issue started propping up in Jatt sikh community: rampant drinking and drug abuse. This has resulted in degraded mental and physical health of the youth.

7) With increased globalization and associated job opportunities, those who are somewhat sincere in studying go for those jobs.

So, now many cannot join army because of their lack of sincerity/sobriety. Of those who can, a vast majority get jobs in other places.

P.S. A long time back some one told me that there is a maximum limit on the percentage of sikhs in the forces (supposedly introduced by Indira Gandhi). Sounds BS. Would be nice if someone can clarify.


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 02:15 
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ramana wrote:
Rajrang, Maybe you want to discuss the ideas with this BSF lady?

viewtopic.php?p=1244413#p1244413


Excellent point - but then the percent of brave women who are willing to fight is still a small percent of all women. That is the key - it has to do with the percentages.


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 02:17 
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Surya wrote:
Quote:
I thought that during the 1950s, Sikhs constituted 50% of (a much smaller) IA. Am I correct?



Do you have any sources to back this up??

if you start with myths then we will not get anywhere??



Sorry I do not - but I will search. I recall reading somewhere years back - maybe just a press item.


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 02:20 
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The two Top Jutt Sikh leaders of Indian defense Forces

Lt Gen. Harbaksh Singh (retired in 1969)
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... Singh.html

Air Marshall Arjan Singh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arjan_Singh


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 02:21 
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My personal opinion is that if more people are recruited from Punjab, Haryana, Rajasthan, Jammu the better they will be when time comes to fight against naPakis.


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 02:28 
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SBajwa wrote:
My personal opinion is that if more people are recruited from Punjab, Haryana, Rajasthan, Jammu the better they will be when time comes to fight against naPakis.


I agree with this as good people of these areas have both national and personal interest in making Poaq scream "cream" in their dream/nightmare. It dont mean other Indians wont but there is something special which Poaqers will eternally feel before they are freed for mortal bondages.


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 02:30 
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SBajwa wrote:
My personal opinion is that if more people are recruited from Punjab, Haryana, Rajasthan, Jammu the better they will be when time comes to fight against naPakis.


What about uttaranchal, maharashtra, sikkim, nepal .... ?

Also not just against TSP but also PRC.


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 03:08 
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Ok for once and all - there recruitment limits are by state to keep the state representation proportional not by any other rumoured limit. India Today had an article on the changing face of the Army (back when the magazine counted for something)


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 03:41 
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Surya wrote:
Ok for once and all - there recruitment limits are by state to keep the state representation proportional not by any other rumoured limit. India Today had an article on the changing face of the Army (back when the magazine counted for something)



That sounds like quota - do you agree?


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 04:32 
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wow, as if that useless debate in Naval thread wasn't enough, now we are debating the 'merit' of the British sponsored martial race theory! fascinating! as for why there was such a huge number of Sikhs and Punjabis in IA, that will take us into BIA territory. especially, the divide-and-rule politics of the British with respect to the various territories of Bharat. it might not be politically correct but the relatively high proportion of Jatts/Sikhs has a lot to do with the *preferential* treatment of British since the experience of 1857. I'm really hesitant to open this can of worms, but if claims are made that people of certain region are "better equipped" to deal with Pakis based on prevalent/existing number in the IA, then a proper historical debate of why certain regions have high numbers is inevitable!


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 04:41 
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better to end the discussion here before some people get halal-ed.


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 05:33 
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SBajwa wrote:


nitpick - but Arjan Singh is now higher than Air Marshal and is Marshal of the Air Force which is like Field Marshal.


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 05:36 
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Quote:
That sounds like quota - do you agree?



If you think no. of seats from states to the lok Sabha is a quota then this is a quota. i think its proportional representation and from a national perspective is a better option then skewing to so called martial communities

and most importanly its not by community

you could be a Tamilian born in UP or a sikh born in TN and apply from that state.

(does not apply to Officers of course)


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 06:17 
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Martial race theory is just sunshine that the british East India company blew up some of our idiot ancestor's asses. These bygone idiots had a warm, fuzzy feeling in their anuses, while they killed fellow Indians, Africans and Asians. All under the "righteous seal of approval by gora". As long as they felt warm and fuzzy, they didn't even bother to revolt consistently or at least be decent humans towards fellow humans.

From a purely european POV, all those who held arms from these "martial races", were nothing but third-rate mercenaries who are there to serve them. But that brings out uneasiness all around (as witnessed in that silly Naval thread exchanges).

Now why the hell are people bringing this sort of crap again and again? I mean, remembering and honoring a fighting heritage is one thing. Being a dick about it due to personal inadequacies is another thing. Aren't the "brave pakis" providing us enough lessons on becoming a joke already?


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 07:06 
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Quote:
wow, as if that useless debate in Naval thread wasn't enough, now we are debating the 'merit' of the British sponsored martial race theory!


Well in that case let's have a War against Pakistan to see who is martial and who is not!! The sooner the better!! The rest of the world thinks that Indians don't have will to fight!! and us "MARTIAL RACES" can't digest THAT!!!

MARTIAL race is just a mindset!! it does not mean anything whatsoever!! but a MINDSET TO WIN AT ALL COST!!! (sports or battle).

and let's start declaring people "martial" or "not martial" so that there is some healthy competition !! otherwise all will become NON-MARTIAL!

and statement that "British declared that Rajputs, Sikhs, Jats, Dogra's, Garhwalis, Gurkhas" as martial has no substance and will actually produce Nothing (because these people are martial due to their thousands of years of hunting habits) and probably convert all the Rajputs, Sikhs, Jats, Dogra's, Garhwalis, Gurkha's visiting this thread to be NON-MARTIAL as well compelling them to forget about their ancestors who protected or tried to protect their land (from all beasts)

It is easy to be NON-Martial than having a burden to protect your boundaries, ethos, material and women!! Do you want us all to be NON-MARTIAL? It is piece of cake to be a non-martial!!! all you have to do is sit on your butt and wait to get converted to Islam or to Communism!!


Let's Declare that Indian Army believes in Ahimsa and is non-martial!!! and see how we wither!!!


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 07:22 
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Quote:
by Shiv ji
nitpick - but Arjan Singh is now higher than Air Marshal and is Marshal of the Air Force which is like Field Marshal.


thanks for correcting!!! Air Chief Marshall Arjan Singh and Baba Mehar Singh are the beacon of light that created Indian Air Force!!
We should all be proud of them!!!


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 08:02 
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SBajwa wrote:
Quote:
wow, as if that useless debate in Naval thread wasn't enough, now we are debating the 'merit' of the British sponsored martial race theory!


Well in that case let's have a War against Pakistan to see who is martial and who is not!! The sooner the better!! The rest of the world thinks that Indians don't have will to fight!! and us "MARTIAL RACES" can't digest THAT!!!

MARTIAL race is just a mindset!! it does not mean anything whatsoever!! but a MINDSET TO WIN AT ALL COST!!! (sports or battle).

and let's start declaring people "martial" or "not martial" so that there is some healthy competition !! otherwise all will become NON-MARTIAL!

and statement that "British declared that Rajputs, Sikhs, Jats, Dogra's, Garhwalis, Gurkhas" as martial has no substance and will actually produce Nothing (because these people are martial due to their thousands of years of hunting habits) and probably convert all the Rajputs, Sikhs, Jats, Dogra's, Garhwalis, Gurkha's visiting this thread to be NON-MARTIAL as well compelling them to forget about their ancestors who protected or tried to protect their land (from all beasts)

It is easy to be NON-Martial than having a burden to protect your boundaries, ethos, material and women!! Do you want us all to be NON-MARTIAL? It is piece of cake to be a non-martial!!! all you have to do is sit on your butt and wait to get converted to Islam or to Communism!!


Let's Declare that Indian Army believes in Ahimsa and is non-martial!!! and see how we wither!!!


So I take it you believe in the martial race theory.....else the vehement response to the hnair's post was your beand of sarcasm....

and if you actually believe that martian races bull**** then I would like get an idea of who you consider 'non-martial'......


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 08:20 
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Why is so difficult for some people to call a spade a spade? The above mentioned "Martial Races" are what they are today largely due to the region of India where they come from. They have been in the way of invaders coming to Delhi to conquer India, or have have seen many many wars. It has become part of their culture and psyche. The British were not stupid - they recognized good warriors when they had to face them. The Sikhs were the only Indian force to almost defeat the British in the first Anglo-Sikh war (even the British historians admit this). It took one more war to defeat the Sikhs. The Marathas had an empire up to Delhi. The Gurkhas had their own kingdom. Why do Gurkhas still serve in the British army? Why did the British govt, only a few years ago consider raising a Sikh regiment from Sikhs living in the UK? (this idea was dropped after the "politically correct" in UK called it racist).
Every Indian contributes to our country. There are many many South Indians in the Indian IT and defence Industry (DRDO, HAL ..) and are contributing with their strengths.
Just look into which units of the Indian army get sent to the front in time of war (good old Google) and which units usually make up the marching contingent of the IA on Republic day. Why does the Indian govt. do this? The British did not create these "martial races" - they just gave them a name. These races and their fighting spirit was there long before the British even got there!
As someone suggested earlier , in the next war, India should hold back these "martial races" and send the other regiments to the front. There is only one way to prove or disprove this!


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 08:23 
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I think this discussion is going off the rails. Martial races were propogated after the Sikh Wars for reasons that suited the colonial system. Since WWII, Indian troops of various castes and creeds have proved they are as good as any.
That the Sikhs are top notch troops is beyond debate. Baba Mehar Singh, Brig Pritam Singh (Poonch), Arjan Singh, Harbaksh (1948 and '65), RS Dayal (Hajipir) et all have helped shape our country's destiny. Their names, and their contribution should never be forgotten.
But let's just remember where this discussion is coming from - we have been talking of a carefully orchestrated plot initiated in 2006 to set in place a line of succession. Frankly, until yesterday, despite half my family fitting into that description, it hadn't occurred to me that almost all the key names being talked of in the 'conspiracy' theory fitted into the 'Bhapa' Sikh tag.
I know General JJ well, having flown around Arunachal with him after he requested Dipti and me to prepare a presentation on the state for Nat Geo at their HQ in Georgetown, Washington DC. I have also played a bit of golf with him and know him to be an extremely articulate person.
The former DG Assam Rifles, Karan Yadava once told me that he never passed judgement on any decision taken by any of his predecessors for whatever be the facts, one never knew the circumstances that led to the decision being taken. In this very forum I had advocated that the press simply ask His Excellency why he had initiated the VKS age issue despite all previous recordsn be they in the MS Branch or with the AG, showed 1951. Today we aren't in the times of Verrier Elvin where the media has to swim across the Brahmaputra and hack its way through jungles to get to the man. The former chief's own sense of honour, his loyalty to the Army should encourage him to set the record straight.
Until then, theories involving castism, groupism and communalism will continue to do the rounds, especially when all the key players in the line of succession conspiracy are 'Bhapa Sikhs'. To make matters worse, the overall impression that one has is of the MOD, GOI and now even the SC doing its bit to avoid asking this one crucial question.

BTW, SinghSardar my friend, I have flown, sailed and operated with officers and men from all corners of this country. My father is from the Rajput Regiment and we are very proud of our traditions. But let me tell you, there is no difference... Madras regiment troops have been as good as any in Siachen, or for that matter Sikh troops in Sri Lanka. I suggest you read 'the Best Black troops in the World' by a Sri Lankan author. It'll interest you. Regards.


Last edited by kunalverma on 21 Feb 2012 08:35, edited 1 time in total.

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