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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2012 23:56 
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While the general mood is HAL bashing, this is something to maybe slightly change the mood :D
http://s1150.photobucket.com/albums/o603/raghuramkiran/?action=view&current=417092_10151246910875214_819820213_22938356_1954788685_n.jpg


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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2012 23:59 
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Rudra??? Isn't it the Dhruv-WSI's name???


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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2012 00:02 
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Yes it is, and raghuk should be reprimanded for logo-teasing. We might be SDRE but we like full frontals too.


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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2012 00:10 
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This is all i can manage for now, the full picture after the official declaration! :P


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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2012 00:11 
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Thank you :)


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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2012 00:13 
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Official Declaration??? Is it the name for the LCH???


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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2012 00:20 
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I meant official pictures, its a magnificent bird and looks absolutely stunning when fully loaded.


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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2012 10:09 
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Thanks a lot RaghuK.


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2012 03:34 
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Raghu,

Is the digital camouflage on the second prototype just a visual one or does the camouflage work in the infrared region as well? If it works in the infrared region, could you please explain how?

My only wild guess is that it is based on differential reflection coefficients of the different colours in the infrared region. The intensity of the reflected ray and hence the signature varies rapidly and hence the infrared sensors cannot lock on.


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2012 03:52 
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hmm.... One need to be cautious on the details being asked off a person with possible security clearances.....


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2012 04:27 
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this is how sensible knowledgable people are driven off - :(


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2012 04:31 
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hnair wrote:
hmm.... One need to be cautious on the details being asked off a person with possible security clearances.....


Yes, ofcourse! I forgot to add caveat: Raghu, please don't reply if it violates the security clearances in any form or manner.

There was some talk in public about the camouflage working in the infrared region, which I did not understand. Hence I asked.

Suryaji, sorry! Probably I would be more careful next time. If Raghu says that he can't answer the question, I will immediately delete the question myself.


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2012 04:54 
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Yogi,there was a report saying that the IN required more than 70+ helos from 8-12t,for ASW,ASuW,special forces,etc. and that the number would cross over a hundred.With such a large order,ther is bound to be some screwdriver tech incolced!


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2012 05:01 
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X-post

Rosoboronexport press-release suggests Ka-226 might be leading the Eurocopter in a tender to supply 197 reconnaissance and surveillance helicopters for the Indian air force and land force

Ka-226 battles through in India
Russia & India report - Victor Litovkin.

Quote:
Rosoboronexport, the sole Russian intermediary for exports and imports of weapons and military equipment, has issued a press release confirming that the Russian Ka-226T light helicopter will soon defeat its European counterpart the AS550 C3 Fennec, manufactured by Eurocopter, in the tendering process to supply 197 reconnaissance and surveillance helicopters for the air force and land forces of the Republic of India. “All the test phases have been completed, and the examination of bidders’ proposals is at the concluding stage,” the company’s press office reports.

The marked advantage of the Russian proposal is its “cumulative” effect: the excellent Ka-226T rotary-wing aircraft is offered as a package with an offset programme that is attractive for the Indian side, this document says. First, under the offset programme Rosoboronexport, together with companies of the Russian Helicopters holding, is proposing to set up joint production of sub-systems and components for the Ka-226T, and subsequently to set up assembly of these machines in the Republic of India. Second, it proposes joint development of new modifications of the Ka-226T. And third, this programme will enable the two countries – which are strategic partners – to move towards full-scale industrial cooperation in the field of helicopter building. Russia’s huge experience in this sphere and the successful implementation of joint programmes in the field of aircraft building (production under licence in India of the MiG-21, MiG-27 and Su-30MKI aeroplanes) are a good basis for fulfilling the most ambitious objectives.

Quote:
Incidentally,[b] the Ka-226T performed very well during the evaluation trials conducted earlier in India as part of the tendering process. These trials showed clearly that the Ka-226T embodies the best achievements of the Kamov school of design – modular construction, which makes the helicopter multifunctional, a simple piloting technique, a low level of vibration, a high degree of reliability and safety in flight, and easy maintenance.

The Kamov helicopter may also be helped to win in the Indian tendering process by the fact that the Ka-226T is also flying in the Russian Federal Security Service and the Ministry of Emergency Situations, and has been put into service by the Ministry of Defence. A batch of these “choppers” was recently delivered to the Military Helicopter Pilots’ Retraining Centre in Torzhok. Moreover, there is lively interest in this machine outside Russia. Jordan wants not just to buy this machine but also to assemble it on its own territory. So Delhi has a chance to overtake Amman, and even to leave it trailing.


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2012 13:37 
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Retired Indian Major General to Lead HAL and CAE Helicopter Joint Venture in India | Ottawa Citizen

Quote:
BENGALURU, INDIA--(Marketwire - Feb. 13, 2012) - The Helicopter Academy to Train by Simulation of Flying (HATSOFF), the joint venture owned equally by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and CAE, today announced the appointment of Major General (Ret'd) Ajit Hari as Chief Executive Officer of HATSOFF.

I am pleased to join an organization established by HAL and CAE, two of the world's leading and most reputable aerospace and defence companies," said Major General (Ret'd) Ajit Hari Gadre, now CEO of HATSOFF. "Since its opening in 2010, HATSOFF has set the standard in India for advanced helicopter simulator training, and I am convinced that simulation-based training will continue to grow and prove to be one of the best approaches for improving safety, operational efficiency and mission readiness."

General Gadre spent 37 years with Indian Army as a commissioned officer, retiring in June 2009 as the Additional Director General of Army Aviation. In this role, he managed the operations, training, maintenance and logistics of the entire Indian Army Aviation Corps. Prior to this assignment, General Gadre was Commandant of the National Cadet Corps Officers Training Academy. He is an accomplished helicopter pilot and a qualified flying instructor with over 5,000 hours of accident/incident free flying. During his career, he also oversaw training operations at the Indian Army Headquarters for the entire Army Aviation Corps.

Currently, HATSOFF is offering training on the Bell 412, Eurocopter Dauphin, and the civil/conventional variant of the HAL Dhruv helicopters. An additional cockpit for the Indian Army/Air Force glass cockpit variant of the HAL-built Dhruv is expected to be added to the HATSOFF training centre later in 2012. HATSOFF uses a CAE-built full-mission simulator "mothership" that features CAE's revolutionary roll-on/roll-off cockpit design, which enables cockpits representing various helicopter types to be used in the full-mission simulator. When a cockpit is not used in the full-mission simulator, it can be used as a fixed-based flight training device. The HATSOFF training centre, located near HAL's multiple complexes adjacent to HAL Airport, also features multimedia classrooms, computer-based training, brief/debrief facilities, a training management information system and crew accommodations.

About HAL

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is a premier aeronautical complex of SE Asia, with 19 production divisions and ten R&D centres. HAL's expertise encompasses design, production, repair, overhaul and upgrade of Aircraft, Helicopters, Aero-engines, Accessories, Avionics and Systems. HAL today provides one stop solutions for all the design needs of aircraft and helicopters in airframes, airframe systems, avionics, mission and combat systems using advanced design tools. The 19 manufacturing divisions of HAL are equipped with modern infrastructure with modern plant and machinery for production of fighter aircraft, trainer aircraft and helicopters. The current workforce is around 35,000 with over 50% having more than a decade of aircraft industry experience. It has also diversified into manufacture and repair/overhaul of Industrial and Marine Gas Turbine engines, and manufacture of structures for aerospace vehicles. http://www.hal-india.com

About CAE

CAE is a global leader in modeling, simulation and training for civil aviation and defence. The company employs more than 7,500 people at more than 100 sites and training locations in over 25 countries. Through CAE's global network of 34 civil aviation, military and helicopter training centres, the company trains more than 80,000 crewmembers yearly. CAE's business is diversified, ranging from the sale of simulation products to providing comprehensive services such as training and aviation services, professional services and in-service support. The company applies its simulation expertise and operational experience to help customers enhance safety, improve efficiency, maintain readiness and solve challenging problems. CAE is now leveraging its simulation capabilities in new markets such as healthcare and mining.


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2012 13:43 
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Eurocopter plans next-generation X4 helicopter


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2012 13:50 
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Sikorsky Tests Active Rotor With Flaps

Quote:
There, the system performed extremely well over a variety of forward flight conditions up to 140 knots, according to Sikorsky. Goals were met in reduction of noise (minus 6 dB) and vibration (minus 20 percent). Performance was improved, too, with higher maximum load and better efficiency. “Our active flap rotor is more effective on noise and vibration than on cruise efficiency,” explained Russ Gray, chief engineer for advanced programs.


Interesting and difficult concept. Is there any easier ways of achieving this?


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2012 14:40 
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raghuk wrote:
While the general mood is HAL bashing, this is something to maybe slightly change the mood :D
http://s1150.photobucket.com/albums/o603/raghuramkiran/?action=view&current=417092_10151246910875214_819820213_22938356_1954788685_n.jpg


[OT] Are you the Kiran of FP @ orkut? [/OT]

Cheers....


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2012 14:47 
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@neerajb
Yes very much the same guy
The active flap on the MRB is nothing new or unique, we have been doing(testing only though) it for quite sometime now


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2012 15:05 
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neerajb wrote:
raghuk wrote:
While the general mood is HAL bashing, this is something to maybe slightly change the mood :D
http://s1150.photobucket.com/albums/o603/raghuramkiran/?action=view&current=417092_10151246910875214_819820213_22938356_1954788685_n.jpg


[OT] Are you the Kiran of FP @ orkut? [/OT]

Cheers....
Orkutiya fraands :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2012 18:18 
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Apache ‘last man standing’ in India helicopter competition
Flight Global

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Mark Kronenberg, Boeing's vice-president for international development, said the Apache is the "last man standing" in India and Boeing is the sole bidder for the contract. Boeing is in final negotiations with India's ministry of defence, and hopes for a final decision by the end of the second quarter.


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2012 18:40 
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it is somewhat mystifying though what the IAF hopes to achieve with just 22. surely 4-6 will be needed as a training unit. that leaves 16-18. assuming a 80% uptime over a 2 week war period thats just like 12 airframes.

even a bottle-fed munna like UK that will never need to fight a land war on its own, has 60 longbows.

perhaps IAF wants to get the apache in and then launch a bulk follow on order, without the hassle of another retender and testing.


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2012 18:55 
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Quote:
even a bottle-fed munna like UK that will never need to fight a land war on its own, has 60 longbows.


Bottle fed Munna... :rotfl: :rotfl:


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2012 19:00 
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Singha wrote:
it is somewhat mystifying though what the IAF hopes to achieve with just 22. surely 4-6 will be needed as a training unit. that leaves 16-18. assuming a 80% uptime over a 2 week war period thats just like 12 airframes.

even a bottle-fed munna like UK that will never need to fight a land war on its own, has 60 longbows.

perhaps IAF wants to get the apache in and then launch a bulk follow on order, without the hassle of another retender and testing.


Or learn to operate it for a couple of years and then to build one on our own. An Indian version taking the best of RICE-28N / AH-64.


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2012 19:15 
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Singha wrote:
it is somewhat mystifying though what the IAF hopes to achieve with just 22. surely 4-6 will be needed as a training unit. that leaves 16-18. assuming a 80% uptime over a 2 week war period thats just like 12 airframes.

even a bottle-fed munna like UK that will never need to fight a land war on its own, has 60 longbows.

perhaps IAF wants to get the apache in and then launch a bulk follow on order, without the hassle of another retender and testing.



"With an option to acquire another 22." In 2020 Indian armed forces will hold about 222 attack choppers.


Attack Chopper holding in 2020:

IAF

Apache 44
LCH 65

Army

LCH 114


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2012 21:26 
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22 Apaches may not be enough for a full blown 2-front war but they should be more than enough to snuff out jehadi infiltration very quickly with minimum casualties.

Image

Not sure how effective attack choppers are in a MANPAD infested ground war, specially in open terrain. They seem more suited to hide-and-seek type combat in terrain which provides radar and visual cover--urban, forested or hilly/mountainous areas. Their USP is being able to see and engage from a distance without themselves being seen or heard.


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 10:51 
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raghuk,

Are you guys involved with NRUAV project for the navy as well? We haven;t heard anything on it for a while now.


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 13:16 
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Victor wrote:
22 Apaches may not be enough for a full blown 2-front war but they should be more than enough to snuff out jehadi infiltration very quickly with minimum casualties.

Image

Not sure how effective attack choppers are in a MANPAD infested ground war, specially in open terrain. They seem more suited to hide-and-seek type combat in terrain which provides radar and visual cover--urban, forested or hilly/mountainous areas. Their USP is being able to see and engage from a distance without themselves being seen or heard.

The apaches are experts in tank killing. The plains of Punjab, Rajastan can prove pretty messy for enemy Armored units in the presence of these.
The Attack Choppers usually travel in groups, so if a lone MANPADS team tries to engage them, irrespective of their missile's hit they will be toast by the reminder of the birds.
This is not the case when MANPADS engage strike Jets.
This puts in a lot of pressure on the sneaky MANPADS squad and practically can deter them from firing. The choppers like Apache are very good at counter measures against MANPADS and are more likely to survive then any other type of a chopper.

That said, even Super Cobras are very good.


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 14:08 
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Singha wrote:
it is somewhat mystifying though what the IAF hopes to achieve with just 22. surely 4-6 will be needed as a training unit. that leaves 16-18. assuming a 80% uptime over a 2 week war period thats just like 12 airframes.

even a bottle-fed munna like UK that will never need to fight a land war on its own, has 60 longbows.

perhaps IAF wants to get the apache in and then launch a bulk follow on order, without the hassle of another retender and testing.


Is it possible for the Apaches to be embedded in small flights of 4-6 bird elements in mixed combat aviation regiments - a mix of lower capability LCH along with Apaches acting as flight leaders.

Fuller picture of the Apache numbers will become clear once the IA/IAF squabble over army aviation brigades reaches a resolution.


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 14:38 
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koti wrote:
Victor wrote:
Not sure how effective attack choppers are in a MANPAD infested ground war, specially in open terrain. They seem more suited to hide-and-seek type combat in terrain which provides radar and visual cover--urban, forested or hilly/mountainous areas. Their USP is being able to see and engage from a distance without themselves being seen or heard.

The apaches are experts in tank killing. The plains of Punjab, Rajastan can prove pretty messy for enemy Armored units in the presence of these.
The Attack Choppers usually travel in groups, so if a lone MANPADS team tries to engage them, irrespective of their missile's hit they will be toast by the reminder of the birds.
This is not the case when MANPADS engage strike Jets.
This puts in a lot of pressure on the sneaky MANPADS squad and practically can deter them from firing. The choppers like Apache are very good at counter measures against MANPADS and are more likely to survive then any other type of a chopper.

That said, even Super Cobras are very good.

Ask the 11th Regiment, 3rd Infantry Division, US Army: 2003 Attack on Karbala, Iraq


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 16:14 
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self deleted


Last edited by raghuk on 16 Feb 2012 19:19, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 16:22 
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some useful details in that wiki article:

>> As they turned north toward Karbala, signals intelligence picked up over 50 Iraqi cell phone calls alerting the enemy's forward units of the Apaches.

I wish we had this ability . hopefully samyukta has a module for this, since the NTRC is always snooping around delhi for terrorists

>> The Apaches turned for home after a half-hour of combat. Most were without functioning navigation equipment or sights

indicates the super dooper nose mounted optronic pod and longbow radars are vulnerble to even small arms fire at 400m. a squad of people can simply spray the area ahead of a helicopter and hope to score hits to degrade or destroy these vital systems. ..the afghanis were taught that by the CIA....the iraqis learnt that on their own...without the optronic pod/radar these expensive puppies are nothing.

have to say large numbers of less complex and less hyped smaller and leaner SuperCobra / LCH types would likely get the job done better....the cobra's slim profile makes it very difficult to hit from the front and rear.


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 17:52 
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The more interesting part was
Quote:
Ground troops, having recovered from the suppression air strike, opened up with small arms and other weapons. Lieutenant Jason King, pilot of Apache "Palerider 16", was hit by AK-47 fire in the neck and suffered a severe hemorrage
So weren't attack helicopters supposed to be protected against ground fire? And the grossly inaccurate AK-47 cussed by everyone scores a hit :-)

Answer is here http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AS71H-Yoxy0/T ... t%253F.jpg Armour protection is limited to certain parts. And if enemy fire hits an unprotected part, then there will be damage.

Even a tank carries maximum protection on the glacis (front part) and turret. The sides are a little less armoured, and the back very less or not armoured at all. Including the TFTA Abrams. Otherwise a fully armoured tank will weigh 100 tons.

Moral of the story - no gizmo is invincible. Gizmos need to be deployed using smart tactics.


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 17:57 
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Raghu - a suggestion. Some Navy chaps got into trouble posting on Facebook. I hope you exercise sufficient discretion while posting on BR. Dont end up doing something in good faith that might lead to trouble.


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 18:51 
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tsarkar wrote:
Raghu - a suggestion. Some Navy chaps got into trouble posting on Facebook. I hope you exercise sufficient discretion while posting on BR. Dont end up doing something in good faith that might lead to trouble.



Thank you sarkar sahab!! I wanted to caution Raghu on the same !!!


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 19:09 
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Admins-> Can you delete the last post of RaghuK as it may cause unnecessary harm.


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 19:19 
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thanks marten sir, can you delete the quote which contains my post? thanks in advance


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 19:34 
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pls. use the "report the post" feature available to remove the post. already done for the above post


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PostPosted: 16 Feb 2012 21:07 
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Actually it was a general description of what an active flap does on the rotors and the allied challenges and had nothing specific on the program itself, in fact the specifics might be a bit too much for the DDMs to understand as it tends to get very technical and complicated, but anyway if someone is really interested, it is a very exciting topic to discuss, so next BR Bangalore meet perhaps :)


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PostPosted: 17 Feb 2012 00:49 
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I missed the whole discussion ??? :)

Oh well and yes, only looking for very generic information only.

Has any thoughts been put into the MRH specs ? The arididen engine has about 20-30% growth left in it. Any chance we would fund something like an uprated version of Arididen to power something like the MRH ? Perhaps it would be a 3 engine solution, but it would make maintenance so much easy for our heli line. It seems it would be quite easy to work a 10-12 ton solution from those engines.

Perhaps we could even convince the french to make the hot section here in India or part with tech to do that since the scale would be quite high.


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