Bharat Rakshak

For those who were claiming conspiracy at Gen Bikram Singh's appointment. PMO asked Raw to investigate the in-law. Raw didnt find anything. AKA asked IB to conduct an investigation as well now.

And this information is not public!

Modernization of the armed forces and being a martial are totally two separate things. Gen K. Sundarji was a great general who understood that modernizing the armed forces is the basic key to survival. Just like Ranjit singh (who got French Tactics and guns against British) and Babar who used modern artillery to win India and Ghori who used fast moving cavalry against slow moving elephants. They were great generals (some were defenders others were foreigners trying to loot India).

Now Raja Dahir (Brahmin too) was a good king of Sindh but he neither kept his armed forces to be modern nor he actively led the armed forces into battle (always defensive)




Again!! see the general comment above!!! Generals are only as good as its soldiers, their shrewness and their intellect!!



Off course He is the Martialist of them all!! He fulfilled his Karma and his Dharma protecting his land!! That is what decide who is Martial and who not!!



You are reading too much into British theory of Martial races. In my opinion only people who got benifit from this theory were Pakjabis (good for nothing people who lost all the wars they fought and were declared MARTIAL by British probably to setup Pakistan later!! just like USA is playing India against China and Pakistan at this very moment)

Once again!! Declaring people "MARTIAL" is a mindset!! A prize! A Medal!! A proud epithet!! and nothing else!!

SDRE or TFTA in the modern world anybody who is fit enough (mentally and physically) to fight is a good soldier! and declaring his/her people as "MARTIAL" will only help!! All you need is mental ability to

1. Be a Leader to have a vision for strategic goals (at all levels starting from Havaldar to COAS)
2. Be a soldier to follow the orders for tactical strikes for the above strategic goals. (All Soldiers)
3. Have a physical ability to do the above. (All soldiers)

Bottom line for soldiers is the Indic concept of KARMA and DHARAM!!!!!

For me Martial is my grandfather telling me when I was 15 years old that there are only TWO jobs worth a Man!

1. Be a Soldier.
2. Be a Farmer.

everything else is garbage!!

Well it is. IB report to clear decks for chief-in-waiting





-Ankit

err when RAW itself is politicised - what faith does one have in a politcally motivated check??

Ankit, Thanks for the link. The RAW one probably cannot be public.

Why is RAW politicised? please explain!!!

What did you choose

Uttam Kheti, Madh Byopar
Nakhid kare Chakri
Sukhi rahe Sansar.

This was for old times when High tech/Industrialized societies did not exist.

Read the way the chiefs have been appointed

Since Sundarji was onlee a General

what happens when a so called martial race General is a flop??

I have just received the following mail from Lt General VK Tubby Nayar (2 Para), former Western Army Commander and also the Governor of Nagaland and Manipur:

Dear kunal,
I will be grateful if u can release the attached open letter to the Hon Prime Minister to the press and other media. These are my honest feelings and I do not wish to say any thing more to any one. Thanks
for the trouble.
Best Wishes.
Tubby Nayar.

Respected Prime Minister,
Most people, including myself, believe that old soldiers should just fade away. Ever since retiring from the Indian Army as the Western Army Commander and subsequently having served as the Governor of Manipur and Nagaland, I firmly held that we have had our innings and matters were best left to those who followed us. However, after giving it considerable thought, I take the liberty in all due respect of writing this 'open letter' to my Prime Minister for like hundreds and thousands of my brother officers - both retired and serving - I am deeply concerned about what today is talked about as the 'Age Controversy'!
In my book, leadership, be it in matters military or otherwise, is based on three simple principles - righteousness, decisiveness and fairness! All three of these seem to have been vitiated in this particular case. There is no doubt that all records, both in the MS and AGs branch, until 2006 clearly reflected 1951 as the Chiefs date of birth. Based on an erroneous entry in the Army List, after the officer had already been cleared for the rank of Lieutenant General, first the MS branch records and then the AGs records were tampered with. To my mind and understanding, this is the simple crux of the issue and I fail to understand what sort of message has been given to the rank and file of the Indian Army by your Government’s inability to resolve this issue.
To hide behind the legal system – the retraction of the Government’s rejection of the Statutory Complaint frankly left the Chief’s lawyers with no choice but to withdraw their petition – and for the media and your Government to project this as a defeat for General VK Singh is indulging in theatrical politics. Like many of my brother officers, after the media blitz that reported on the Supreme Court’s deliberations, I too felt that the Chief should immediately resign in protest. However, once the Order of the Honourable Court came out five days later – without any TV channel or newspaper reporting it – the shoe seems to be on the other foot. By not resigning and continuing with his job despite what was widely projected as a ‘public humiliation’, VK Singh has shown a degree of personal courage that makes me proud of the man and by extension, the Indian Army. Had he resigned, it would have been a petulant act. We must not forget that there is a lot more to the office of the COAS than just the age issue.
Today, Mr Prime Minister, many would like to burry this issue and may accuse me of flogging a dead horse. However, it is my duty as an elder who has served my country to the best of my ability, to point out to you that once the smoke settles, you will be asked why you let this happen. In a system that is reeling from endless corruption charges, where many have learnt to bend with the wind, one man stood up for what he considered wrong. The ‘system’ may have closed in around him and in the short term, defeated him by denying him justice. But you, Mr Prime Minister, are today being seen as the person who is not only shielding the perpetuators of this original crime, but also protecting the beneficiary of this blatant manipulation.
I have had the honour of interacting with you when you were the Finance Minister of our country. I have always found you to be a man who could quickly grasp the larger picture and resolutely follow your convictions. Since Independence, the civil-military equation in this country has evolved in its own unique way, perhaps creating certain imbalances which need to be looked at for like the ‘age issue’, these too cannot be wished away. In a fractured and fragmented country that came together in 1947 as the Union of India, I can say with great pride that the Indian Army managed to retain its secular and non-communal outlook. This has to be protected at all costs! In your watch, if all the lions were to get up and go, the wind will say, I told you so!
Lt General VK Nayar, PVSM,SM(retd)

First PC Katoch (1 Para) and now Tubby Nair (2 Para)....
Sure proves one thing, the Maroon Berets are certainly a Martial Race.

So what do they expect to find ? Even the post Gen BS is holding is a critical position and they did not find any thing serious in the Pakistani connection to hold his current post .....such vetting by IB/RAW are just routine affair for top post.

The IPKF was under strict orders to not harm civilians - which most Tamils in Sri Lanka were dressed up as. This limitation put on the IPKF was the reason why it sustained losses. A soldier cannot fight with one hand tied behind his back, so to speak. BTW - as any person with knowledge of English knows, calling a spade a spade means calling a fact a fact. Go Google it. I sincerely hope that this clears your confusion. We all learn something new everyday.

But then that applies to martial andnon martial

Shouldn't the martial races be able to fight with one hand tied behind and blindfolded!!!!

years of martial race evolution should allow for that!!!

else what difference for normal rice eating SDREs???

Tamils?? Did IPKF go there to fight tamils? They went there to protect the people and enforce peace between SL and LTTE ..spade a spade.

If you want a free hand to do whatever you want, you dont need trained soldiers. National Bird of the pure flying at 40Kfeet with sufficient droppings would do.

that reminds me

kunal

need to contact you.

let me know

regards

surya

Sachin, I am not suggesting disbanding any regiment or group at all - read my post again - carefully.
As for your comment about Madras Regt being the best troops goes, without any disrespect to anyone and keeping political correctness in mind, I would suggest that you take a look at the Battle honours and medals awarded to the various IA regiments - "martial" or otherwise.
BTW, BEG and Bengal Engineer Group is the same thing, located in Kirkee in Maharashtra. I spent a few years of my childhood there as my father was posted in Kirkee.
Just to clariify further, BEG, MEG and all armoured regiments (pre-independence such as 7th Cavalry, Skinnner's Horse, Central India Horse etc and many post independence newly raised ones) are "mixed race". So is the Artillery, ASC, Signals etc.

This "martial race" discussion seems to have really touched off a raw nerve among a large number of BR Fites. Do I sense a form of "resentment" against North Indians here as it seems to me that a large majority of people on this forum are South Indian? Correct me if I am wrong. I hope I am. Such sentiments, if true, do not bode well for India's secularism. India is a collection of many states, each with it's unique history, culture and traditions, which must be recognized and respected by all Indians. We all have our strengths, but not always in the same areas. India is a unique and only such country in the world. Even Belgium, a very small country in Europe, with EU headquarters in Brussels, wants to split along ethnic lines.

The IPKF was sent to Sri Lanka to enforce peace between SL and the LTTE, but ended up fighting against the LTTE! It was a politically disastrous adventure for India. Go read your history.

spade-o-spade - then what the fck was the comment about IPKF was sent to fight the tamils. to fight tamils, all you need is to go to Tamil Nadu (a state in Southern India). You dont know the difference between SL army, ltte and civilians? Spend some time educating yourself before sending out byproducts of beans.

Thanks for your "valuable" posts so far...you have completely messed up this forum and the core issue that was under debate General VK Singhs DOB issue.

WOW! Your emotions are really getting the better of you now!

Speak with respect and be civil - OK!
I know where Tamil Nadu is and that Tamils live there. I also know that Tamils in Northern SL wanted their own autonomous region and were suppressed by the SL (Sinhalese) govt. This gave birth to the LTTE (all Tamils) which took up an armed struggle to achieve what they had not been able to by peaceful means. If someone disagrees with you, then they mess up this forum? Other forum members can read our posts and decide who, if anyone, "messed up" this forum.

SinghSardar, what Pandyian is alluding too is your assumption all Tamils support LTTE, even within SL tamils, LTTE represented a minority and never the Kandy Tamils or the Colombo Tamils.

The Sinhalese Right wing did a lot of wrong and 1983 riots 3000 tamils were killed in rioting trigerring off the Ealam war.

Indian Tamils like 99% of Indian society are very sad 1650 soldiers died in SL and that Rajiv Ghandi for Political reasons spared the life of Prabhakaran who was with great difficulty captured twice by Indian soldiers.

Self - Deleted : This discussion is pointless.

Back in 1980s I tried and failed and opted out to be an engineer. Which is just a Chakri i.e. "working for somebody". I am a garbage is what my grandfather will say as I am neither soldier nor farmer.

Its actually sarcasm.

but probably got weeded out in the martial races!!!




Not me - i am bombayite only and my track record on IPKF is known -

Without delving in to the subject, certain facts only...

BEG & Centre Kirkee = Bombay Engineer Group & Centre Kirkee, Mah
Typically troops are Sikhs and others from Raj, Gujarat, Maharashtra, MP, N Karnataka

is not the same as

BEG & Centre Roorkee = Bengal Engineer Group & Centre Roorkee, Uttarakhand
Typically troops are Sikhs and others from Haryana, NCR, Garhwal, Kumaon, Raj, HP, MP, UP, Bihar, WB, Assam & other NE states.

The hinterlands are not watertight compartments and there are overlaps.

Why the takleef at a perfectly innocuous statement that some groups have military traditions.

Sure technology changes ... but it is some of those "achievements of history" that have saved the civilization in the past. And even today you need folks willing to go into harm's way.

Dear SinghSardar ji

You are getting into more hot water here and I am attributing this to inexperience.

In the end if you need to corrected with warnings then you will not last long here, and will come out 'You guys are biased against me' experience, but please keep some of your beans in the bag.

Again I am not saying out political correctness. You have some way to go. So keep thinking, but make a bundle of this martial race theory and thow it across to the neighbour in the west.

Have you actually asked some soldiers in firefights as to what they faced when their hands were not tied. Ability to fight has nothing to do with race or ethnicity. Looks like you have zero idea of Indian history. Recall that the martial races were the first to be overrun by the Mussalman. The South held out for the longest. Now which martial races do you find in Tamil Nadu and Andhra? You are basically bullshitting SinghSardar and I am calling you out on it.

Shut your racist gob right now.

You mean that you can talk bullshit but others should say things that you want to hear? Cut the crap. I doubt if you are a sardar. You may be a Paki for all we know - so who the hell do you think you are lecturing people about martial races, north and south India and secularism?

Was only pulling your leg SBajwa.
I got selected and still chose 'chakri', so in the same boat as probably are most on this forum .

Anytime! Kapil's given you my details I believe.

SinghSardar, can you please take this martial race crap to the Off topic thread? Or better still, anywhere besides BRF?

Not speaking for ParGha. My own takleef is when some imaginary exclusive achievements are used to make a case that they alone serve the nation and others primarily march at parades. If you just wanted to spend time alone with your achievements I suspect no one would mind.

There was a question asked earlier about just who was in the Bengal and Madras armies that defeated said "martial races". I guess it's not sunk in yet.

Lt Gen Nayar, Katoch, IAS MG Devasahayam, and many others have pointed out the deliberate mangling of records to get the chosen 'line of succession'. They have all pointed out to the letter from MS branch, available to public, stating that the DoB used for promotion of Gen VK Singh was 1951 until 2006, and this included the promotion to Lt Gen. But to what avail? The deliberate action is taking its course and Bikram Singh will be the next General it seems.
Martial race concepts of an upright soldier are all far away from the sordid episode.

Well, he was young enough not to be a General at the time, but he did fight 1965 and 1971 war. And then Sumdorong Chu in 1986 ( Wiki) so that statement of yours would be wrong , sir.

And When did Raa find anything useful that we know? They did not even know that Rabinder was about to jump.