Bharat Rakshak

BSF will operate in Civilian areas which/when are facing Terrorist threats or armed insurgencies, which are "military" in nature and 9mm SMG weapons are inadequate for the purpose. It is well recoganised that (apart from very limited situations) 9mm SMG are for self protection or emergency use. If you look at USA it uses 9mm SMG for very limited role like giving it to pilots

Victor ji , are you saying that submachine guns are for use only in well subdued areas ?

BSF has also inducted it for limited use only.30,000 SMGs corresponds to less than 10% of the force deployed being issued one.There is a definite requirement for SMGs for BSF and indeed most of the other security forces.There are many situations where SMGs can be used , including on border.

However I have a serious disagreement with the vendor selection.Beretta is no longer a company known for quality.Quality in the context of firearms is mostly about reliability.

Darshan ji, from what I have read SMG was designed to be a short range “trench sweeper” for combat troops in WW2 to complement bolt action rifles and LMGs. It is still very good at that role no doubt. However, that is not the role of the BSF but of the army and the job is now taken over by more powerful assault rifles. Its current role is strictly covert action, self protection and deterrence more in keeping with police duties. If the BSF needed to operate in hostile environments where the bad guys had Aks say, it would be unacceptable foolishness to rely on 9mm SMGs. Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that we probably have a very specific need for the Beretta and it is likely not within our borders.

The info on this particular model of Beretta is that it is hardly an assault rifle. It is the military version of a civilian weapon CX 4 "pistol caliber carbine aimed at the sporting, personal defense and law enforcement markets." (Wiki)

A related news item is
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap ... 10308.aspx

Was this really selected after a months if not years long testing process like an Indian weapon would have faced, if not why? Why has the order not been canceled? (it would have been, if it were an Indian weapon or at the very least put on hold). I remember how some in the BSF were eager to criticize and malign the ALH Dhruv when some problems came around (which i believe were due to lack of proper servicing), why are these voices silent when a FOREIGN company has supplied faulty guns. Where is the demand for a redesign? Are Indian weapons producers every going to be treated with the same consideration and tolerance that these people show to foreigners?

Arun ji , It is media which is responsible.Maybe some BSF officers were actually criticizing or want to criticize Beretta but media chooses to ignore it.Whereas in the case of ALH it was too ready to show some BSF officer's reactions.After all BSF did come out with the report of how the weapons performed in the tests.Dunno how rigorous the process was.For a company like Beretta the process should be doubly rigorous.

One more point though.Rigor should be measured in the no. of rounds fired during testing in varied conditions and not in years.If you start talking of stretching the firearms testing for years , then guess who is the loser. It is the trooper on duty.

You are right. Even if there are some characters like the DGMF (Arjun saga) ready to shoot their mouth off dissing local gems, there has to be a slavish and traitorous media ready lap it up like lick-spittles. Its high time we had at least one nationalistic news channel.

<Nitpick>It was designed for WW-I, not WW-II.</Nitpick> First practical submachine gun in military use was the MP-18 used by the Germans in 1918. Incidentally, the term "submachine gun" was used originally as a marketing term for the legendary thompson a.k.a. tommy gun. Click here for some details about the development of the tommy gun.

From the LA times:
Gun culture spreads in India

1:1 equal equal - lose one gun but gain another

Hain ? What is the relation between the two ? Btw Vasectomy does not adversely affect the level of testosterone in the body; or does it ?

arey you all missed this

But removes the ability to shoot important components in the liquid ammunition of one gun.

From what I remember, the vasectomy-gun licence scheme was introduced 3-4 years ago in rural Western UP which has a thriving gun culture. As an innovative way to curb population growth, the Govt offered to give gun licences to men who underwent vasectomies. Guns are the pride of men in those areas, so the Govt came up with that scheme. A later report mentioned that these men were now protesting, because the Govt reneged their promise afterwards and did not give them gun licences.

Hopefully the licenses come with rigorous training, otherwise they're adding a hazard!

It was not western UP but Chambal valley.I doubt if population growth is very high in western UP except for muslim population there.And guns are definitely not a pride of men residing in Western UP although a huge percentage is armed.Most of the arms bearing public goes for concealed carry handguns.It is a different matter altogether that they do not care much for the licenses and that is the way it should be.We are citizens and not subjects.

In chambal however guns are definitely a matter of pride.You can actually see a lot of people carrying their long arms with them.

By the way Chambal valley encompasses parts of Rajasthan,MP and UP.

You are right, it did cross my mind when I was typing it. It is Chambal, not Western UP. Sorry for the mistake!

( we should all be aware of these aspects)

India has a history of gun producing in the crucibles of hindi heartland- nowadays of UP and surrounding areas. IIRC India never had a ban on gun holdings. It was banned after 1857 war of independence against briturds. They banned gun holdings amongst Indians. They literally shit in their pants.
This has been continued to this day.
Even today many are locally made guns made of local stuff. This has been curtailed since briturds but never completely destroyed.


other amazing things are -
1) despite a low police population ratio, India has one of the lowest(if not lowest crime rates) in the world. westerners are found of saying not many report it as is their wont.
2) lowest ratio of criminals to population in prisons,
3) More respectful society which make criminals live and do well in the society. despite the contrary projected in movies and by westerners.
4) ditto with crimes against women.

Numbers will always be stacked against us due to huge populations but ratio shows it all.

people may believe it or not it all boils down to the culture- live and let live as living beings which is prevalent in our culture.

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/7144/pdsr556kalantak07foldab.jpg

Link
Can anyone verify the veracity of this?

^^^^
Interesting... The description sounds somewhat similar to a gas-delayed blowback action, except that they're not using it to delay the opening of the breech. Remember though, a lot of the flash is caused by the unburnt particles of propellant igniting outside the barrel, not just due to hot exhaust gases. That's why short barreled firearms exhibit flashes more because the propellant doesn't have a chance to completely burn inside the barrel.

Yes.
But the significant advantage of PDC IMO is its cooling functionality. It can increase the rate of fire and the barrel change problem.
I wonder if this mechanism is being considered for Insas LMG and other LMG/MMG's in operation. Could save a lot of time be delaying the mandatory barrel changes in firefight.

Can anyone tell us how to verify the existing patents over the web.

considering each round of a UBGL needs to be hand fed ... it is of any use in a fast moving mobile battle situation?

I can understand its utility in a sentry post situation if a mortar or CGustaf type weapon is lacking, in throwing out some area damage.

^^ Indian Patent Office
http://ipindia.nic.in/ipirs1/patentsearch.htm

European Patent Office
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/?locale=en_EP

Sentry posts would normally never have mortars or Rocket Launchers, a sentry post is not a defensible position and its primary function is act as a lookout. Plus a UBGL doesn't have the range of a mortar or the fire power of a Carl Gustav. UBGL is as the name suggests a "grenade launcher" to launch grenades, you can't take out an APC or shoot down a helicopter with it. It's range is limited to about 100 yards or so.

Combat shotgun....awesome!
http://www.gizmag.com/aa-12-combat-shot ... tic/11393/

Sentry posts would normally never have mortars or Rocket Launchers, a sentry post is not a defensible position and its primary function is act as a lookout

^^^ I meant the kind of post in afghanistan US firebases that are located atop hills and protected by sandbags. the talibs sometimes try to creep up in the night and launch cQB.

I saw a combat shotgun in use in "The Expendables" movie....awe inspiring amt of damage. our police CT units and COIN units could use it in built up areas.

If you look at it as an infantry range suppressive weapon, it is quite useful. It might also be the only organic tool of a squad that can threaten targets in defilades.

Can someone identify this gun.This picture is from the recent Indo-Indonesian exercises.To me it looks like a black colored INSAS

to me it looks like a normal Insas with camo cover on plastic parts

Thanks and its looking good.

Interesting gun

Israel Weapon Industries to display semi automatic 7.62mm Caliber Light Machine Gun at DefExpo India

Machine Gun is Semi Automatic? 1 shot every time you pull the trigger, doesn't that defeat its very purpose?

ok it has option of being used in semi-automatic mode.

I think it is more suited for providing mobile firepower for a squad.it's like the M249.

What does the blacklisting of IMI mean for Tavor Series of small arms in India ?

I obtained a bigger image: IWI NEGEV NG7 7.62mm Semi Automatic LMG

Tavor is from IWI.


CJ saab, is this different from the 5.56 one IA have?

Added Later... It is.

I think the buttstock, grip are covered with camouflage cloth. Why IA is not planing to upgrading these parts with polymer.

Just as a side note: IMI blacklisting will effect only the Nalanda OFB factory producing BMCS