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PostPosted: 23 Feb 2012 19:56 
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As I mentioned before the offset dilutions are beginning with the introduction of multipliers etc. Of note is also the fact that offset obligations are currently being met with low tech endeavors like shelters and air conditioners etc or non defense related investments.

What's also new is the proposed "offset credit" system, which will heavily favor already entrenched foreign vendors in future acquisitions.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2012/02/ ... ffset.html


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PostPosted: 25 Feb 2012 11:52 
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Rafale Selected… Now Consolidation
News Click

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It is however known that the MoD has shared the salient aspects with the two finalists to underline the fairness and transparency of the process, and so as to ward off precisely the kind of recrimination and charges of bias or worse that emanated from the losing parties at least in the immediate aftermath of the announcement.

It is believed that the IAF was given far more primacy in the decision-making process than in most earlier deals. The aircraft performance and how the user saw it fitting into not only its strategic and tactical plans but also its fleet operations and maintenance would therefore have had substantial weightage. It is believed that around 640 parameters were used in the comparative evaluation. Value for money would undoubtedly have been a major consideration. But it can only be part of the contemporary mythology of tendering that in the final round, both contenders were on equal footing as to performance and compatibility with IAF fleet requirements, with only price being thereafter the only determining factor.

Quote:
the Eurofighter is believed to be optimized for air superiority whereas the Rafale, with somewhat longer range and ability to carry more armaments (including, the French are believed to have stressed, nuclear weapons), is thought to have better fitted the IAF’s evolving requirements.

Quote:
Several commentators consider the Eurofighter to be among the best contemporary aerial combat aircraft, excluding the US F-22 Raptor which is a class apart but too advanced for foreseeable threats and far too expensive even for the US which has discontinued further procurement. On the other hand, India already has the Sukhoi SU-30 MkI whose performance in the Indradhanush exercises against all US and European fighters must surely put it there among the best. India has recently ordered a further 64 Su-30 MkIs over and above its earlier order of 140 aircraft most of which are to be made in India, so clearly that slot is taken. If India wanted more aerial fighters, it would make far greater sense to simply buy more Su-30s than to go in for new Eurofighters. Besides, the Rafale also has a ready carrier-based version.

Quote:
The Rafale with its longer range and modern technology provides excellent complementarity with the Mirage fleet, further augmented by the fact that both aircraft are from Dassault of France which is also executing the Mirage upgrade. On the other hand, the Eurofighter would have been a completely new type of aircraft for the IAF, requiring all-new support systems. There may also have been some questions about Its AESA radar which is still under development.

Quote:
France is also said to have offered, and guaranteed its government’s backing for, significant transfer of technology to India. This has two dimensions, both very important: first, extent of indigenization and control especially over vital technologies in times of conflict, and second cost. It is quite likely that the Rafale scored heavily over the Eurofighter on both counts.

Quote:
Today Russia and France are the two remaining non-US nationally-based military aviation industries covering design and manufacture of airframes, engines, armaments, avionics and systems integration, with Britain having increasingly turned towards the consortium approach. The British government was deeply hurt that the Eurofighter lost out but then the Eurofighter is not British.

Quote:
Yet, for all this deep partnership, the British have been prone to cause problems, withholding or delaying assistance for commercial or other reasons. It took considerable persuasion by India to resolve several difficulties with the Hawk Trainers especially as regards technology transfer for license manufacture in India. In terms of long-term defence collaboration, therefore, it seems the IAF has decided to throw in its lot other with France and Russia for mainline fighters while going with manufacturers from Britain and even the US for support and specialized-role aircraft required in smaller numbers.

Quote:
. The political leadership in India needs to ensure that these expensive and high technology acquisitions do not simply yield costly machines dependent on equally costly external support services but are converted into long-term investments in indigenous capability and industrial strength in advanced technology.


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PostPosted: 25 Feb 2012 13:52 
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shukla wrote:
Rafale Selected… Now Consolidation
News Click
Quote:
the Eurofighter is believed to be optimized for air superiority whereas the Rafale, with somewhat longer range and ability to carry more armaments (including, the French are believed to have stressed, nuclear weapons), is thought to have better fitted the IAF’s evolving requirements.

Quote:
Several commentators consider the Eurofighter to be among the best contemporary aerial combat aircraft, excluding the US F-22 Raptor which is a class apart but too advanced for foreseeable threats and far too expensive even for the US which has discontinued further procurement. On the other hand, India already has the Sukhoi SU-30 MkI whose performance in the Indradhanush exercises against all US and European fighters must surely put it there among the best. India has recently ordered a further 64 Su-30 MkIs over and above its earlier order of 140 aircraft most of which are to be made in India, so clearly that slot is taken. If India wanted more aerial fighters, it would make far greater sense to simply buy more Su-30s than to go in for new Eurofighters. Besides, the Rafale also has a ready carrier-based version.


Yes Rafael is a better omni-role fighter compared to EFT, which was primarily made for air-dominance role. But relying on only one fighter, i.e SU-30, for air-dominance is not wise. Especially when the same fighter is in service with PLAAF. By this time PLAAF would have a very good idea on what the air frame of SU-30 can do and its rough capabilities. The only saving grace is that Indian variant of SU-30 is powered by some very good western electronics unlike the PLAAF variant. We can take it to heart that PLAAF would have passed this info to Pakis too.

shukla wrote:
Quote:
The Rafale with its longer range and modern technology provides excellent complementarity with the Mirage fleet, further augmented by the fact that both aircraft are from Dassault of France which is also executing the Mirage upgrade. On the other hand, the Eurofighter would have been a completely new type of aircraft for the IAF, requiring all-new support systems. There may also have been some questions about Its AESA radar which is still under development.


I don't think that there is much of a commonality between Mirage and Raffy. The support structure of Raffy will have to be built. This is basically a red herring.

shukla wrote:
Quote:
France is also said to have offered, and guaranteed its government’s backing for, significant transfer of technology to India. This has two dimensions, both very important: first, extent of indigenization and control especially over vital technologies in times of conflict, and second cost. It is quite likely that the Rafale scored heavily over the Eurofighter on both counts.


Again heresy.


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PostPosted: 25 Feb 2012 16:58 
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IAF is depending on the big radars of the su30, its upgrade path and the PAKFA arriving @ IOC in say 2020....Rus is also said to be working on replacements for the r77 and r73 in parallel, plus a new LRAAM based on the AA9.


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PostPosted: 25 Feb 2012 19:53 
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Not to mention that the rafale and the eurofighter would fire the same missile in the form of meteor aam .


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PostPosted: 25 Feb 2012 20:23 
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khan was said to be working to base a unit of F22 in japan or guam and use their VLO to sneak in close for amraam shots while the bigger aperture F-15E apg63 aesa radars behind them did the active illumination. not sure if it was a needed soln or a soln searching for a problem.

there was a article on it.


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PostPosted: 25 Feb 2012 23:16 
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F-22 were in Guam for 4 months in 2009 and 3 months in 2010


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PostPosted: 26 Feb 2012 04:31 
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the irrefutable aspect of khans is that the minimum of the max is always exported, whereas with others that is converse. russia and france has always given their max to us... without tech loopholes, but have chewed our pockets largely because of bad planning expecting an upgrade path [e.g. mig29 not having an aesa, m2k upgrade itself, etc].

but if the khan land raytheon slowly comes out to port their systems on every aircraft IAF has, then we begin a new chapter. these project must be totally handled by drdo lab boys.

plausibility yes, possibility no from the khans, due to jackal and hyde seekers.


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PostPosted: 27 Feb 2012 08:02 
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Smaller French Firms Feel Offset Heat
http://www.defensenews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2012302190008

Quote:
Asked if India could build an active electronically scanned array radar, Thales chief technical officer Marko Erman said, "Not in the very near future, but who knows?"

Erman later added, "To our knowledge, only France and the United States have operational actively scanned radars, but studies are being done in India."


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PostPosted: 27 Feb 2012 08:05 
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How to Win Large Contracts in BRICS Nations: Follow the French
http://foreignpolicyblogs.com/2012/02/17/win-large-contracts-brics-nations-follow-french/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=win-large-contracts-brics-nations-follow-french


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PostPosted: 27 Feb 2012 08:07 
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the sea dragon on our bears is a downrated version of the novella suite of RuN bears. its not full spec.


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PostPosted: 27 Feb 2012 12:19 
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SaiK wrote:
the irrefutable aspect of khans is that the minimum of the max is always exported, whereas with others that is converse. russia and france has always given their max to us... without tech loopholes.

That's not true. France, Russia, Israel et al don't export their "max" either. The question shouldn't be who is exporting the best tech they have - but which is the best tech available to us.

The issue with US is less pure tech levels supplied; they are usually willing to supply higher grade of tech than available from Russia, France, Israel etc. It is the other costs of doing business with them - the implicit subversion of strategic independence through free mix of politics and arms sales, intrusive business protection rules etc that make them a bad seller.


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PostPosted: 27 Feb 2012 15:17 
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IAF officer faces court martial for demanding bribe
TOI

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They said the CoI had found Thakur prima facie involved in demanding bribe from French company Dassault Aviation for allotting a 'more advantageous position' for its Rafale aircraft in the 'static' aircraft display section at the biennial airshow. One of the officials of Dassault Aviation, who had filed the complaint against the officer, is also there to appear as a witness in the General Court Martial (GCM) headed by a Group Captain-rank officer, the sources said.


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PostPosted: 27 Feb 2012 17:18 
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Rakesh wrote:
Smaller French Firms Feel Offset Heat
http://www.defensenews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2012302190008

Quote:
dominate the French land arms industry, but about 4,000 small and medium-sized companies depend on them for work.


Interesting...wouldnt this be true for companies from other countries as well? There are only few big dogs in the game...niche component suppliers are usually small/well-fed companies. May be they should view India as a partner in developing solutions at a lower cost (on top of a huge market). Atleast they got a strong lifeline now with the Indian selection.


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PostPosted: 27 Feb 2012 17:37 
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Sorry if it was posted earliar, thought interesting....
The Making of Rafale
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=douzAeXkjo4&feature=related

worth watching this one too..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWeiG52Q88w&feature=related


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2012 23:46 
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Rafale F3 qualified by AdlA for war against Alien Tripod

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRAbpjbvrlY&feature=relmfu

And this is something the Typhoon is not able to do. :twisted:


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PostPosted: 29 Feb 2012 03:43 
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My Latest Photo:
More Rafale Girlie Action Image > http://j.mp/x1BQ8r


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PostPosted: 29 Feb 2012 06:27 
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^^ VJ - beautiful pictures as usual.
P.S - could you please tone down on the captions/comments? Great pictures speak by themselves...no need to put unwanted captions


Last edited by pandyan on 29 Feb 2012 07:42, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 29 Feb 2012 07:37 
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India's Rafale: 'The mother of all deals'
http://www.france24.com/en/20120228-ind ... investment

Good 10 minute video report including a short interview with Tarmak AK.


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PostPosted: 29 Feb 2012 09:18 
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Rafale Revolution in Indian Airspace
Forbes India

Image

The Rafale deal has the potential to either make or break the country’s future in aerospace manufacturing


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PostPosted: 29 Feb 2012 18:47 
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Ghaziabad firm Samtel Display Systemsset to fly with Rafael


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PostPosted: 29 Feb 2012 22:01 
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India's Rafale: 'The mother of all deals' - posted by pandyan.

http://www.france24.com/en/20120228-ind ... investment

This is interesting, except the appalling quality of the English anchor woman.

She mispronounces Dassault as "Dassawlt", sounding both "l" and "t" as the Angrez gaonwallahs do, when they try to speak
civilised languages like Hindi, Sanskrit and French. To compound her crime, she calls the aircraft "Rafaley".

This female is also most condescending about India, as her loaded questions showed.

Surely, France24 should be more choosy with their English employees. If the French want to retain Indian goodwill, this anchor should be shown the door.

Conspiracy buffs, of course, may rightly prefer to treat this as an attempt by the perfidious English to stab the French in the back. :)


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PostPosted: 01 Mar 2012 01:27 
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shukla wrote:
http://forbesindia.com/article/special/rafale-revolution-in-indian-airspace/32340/1
The Rafale deal has the potential to either make or break the country’s future in aerospace manufacturing


I don't understand why this negative and pessimistic comment on Raffy's selection. It is not going to break the country's future by any means. The selection is made by a highly efficient team from IAF considering all the parameters.


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PostPosted: 01 Mar 2012 03:40 
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skganji wrote:
shukla wrote:
http://forbesindia.com/article/special/rafale-revolution-in-indian-airspace/32340/1
The Rafale deal has the potential to either make or break the country’s future in aerospace manufacturing


I don't understand why this negative and pessimistic comment on Raffy's selection. It is not going to break the country's future by any means. The selection is made by a highly efficient team from IAF considering all the parameters.


'Make or break' is used as an idiom here meaning 'either succed or fail' to bring capabilities to enhance our aerospace growth. If you read the article you would realise that its not meant in the literal sense..


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PostPosted: 02 Mar 2012 17:03 
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Selection of Rafale for mega defence contract final: Pallam Raju
Economic Times


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PostPosted: 02 Mar 2012 17:49 
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Jaybhatt wrote:
........ To compound her crime, she calls the aircraft "Rafaley".

This female is also most condescending about India, as her loaded questions showed.
..........

didn't see any condescension from the anchorwoman. the desi correspondent vikram singh was however a regular gungadin.
rafaley was funny though.


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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2012 07:55 
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Rakesh wrote:


"it and has produced a great deal of licensed French technology to be sold abroad, especially to China. China currently does not have Dassault fighters, but does produce variants of the French Dauphin helicopter; one that has also been purchased by the US navy, as well as one of China’s most numerous Anti-aircraft systems, the HQ-7 Crotale. "

The french also sold submarines to Pakistan..right? Did they not setup a submarine building operation in Pakistan so they can target India?


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PostPosted: 03 Mar 2012 10:42 
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Yes France sold Agosta submarines.The first two ere made originally for South Africa in France but delivered to France.4 more were sold to Pakistan with two of them being made in Pakistan with french assistance.These later 4 subs were modified to give lower acoustic signature, lower diving depth, improved battery range,performance and greater degree of automation to reduce crew needed and called Khalid Class submarines.


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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2012 19:12 
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IN FOCUS: India advances air force modernisation


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2012 01:52 
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MoD raises objections over Rafale’s lifecycle cost

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/232395/mod-raises-objections-over-rafales.html


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2012 01:54 
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So it begins!


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2012 02:21 
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rehashed old news.


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2012 17:52 
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It raises the question of 'can we pay for Rafale and in the same time pay for jaguar engines, trainers, M2000, and so on'.
It's a major concern ! And this alone could put down MMRCA...
So MoD is like Switzerland : chose an aircraft first and then wonder if the money will be available.


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2012 19:57 
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Is this the reaction to MMRCA selection in India

Russia Close to Sign Su-35 Fighter Deal With China


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2012 21:44 
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Rafale: French conquest


Quote:


FRANCE seems to be on the verge of walking away with one of the biggest defence deals in recent times. In early February, the Indian government announced that it had chosen the French firm Dassault Aviation as the sole bidder to supply 126 Rafale jet fighters for the Indian Air Force (IAF). Among the bidders, Dassault had quoted the lowest prices and had also agreed to provide technology of the Rafale to India. No details have emerged about the exact price tag, but reports suggest that the Rafale would cost around $5 million per unit.

The final cost will be announced only after the two sides complete the negotiations, taking into account the weapons and avionics that will be fitted in the planes. Many military experts say that the contract will be worth more than $20 billion.

The Defence Minister, A.K. Antony, announced on February 17 that the final series of negotiations with Dassault had begun. He said that the Contract Negotiations Committee (CNC) had started its work for the procurement of the multi-role combat aircraft. The Minister reiterated that complete transparency would be maintained during the negotiations, which would continue through the year. He said that the government would closely monitor all stages of the negotiations and “ensure that nobody corrupts the Indian system”. Dassault's rivals, while faulting the Indian government's choice of aircraft, have all said that the bidding process was transparent. Previous aviation deals have been clouded in controversy, with allegations of kickbacks being bandied about.

The IAF already flies around 50 French Mirages. The Indian government had signed a $2.5 billion deal with Dassault last year to upgrade the IAF's Mirage fleet. The only serious competition was from the Eurofighter Typhoon, manufactured by a consortium of German, British, Italian and Spanish companies, led by the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS). The British and German governments have already conveyed their unhappiness with the Indian government's decision to opt for the French plane. British Prime Minister David Cameron, while expressing surprise at the decision of the Indian government to opt for the Rafale, said that the Eurofighter was a “superior” plane. British and German officials were evidently under the impression that the Eurofighter was the clear front runner. EADS officials have sought an explanation on the criteria and cost estimation applied by Indian officials while deciding to choose the French planes.

The Europeans had sweetened their bid by offering India the status of the fifth partner in the prestigious EADS consortium. In a recent letter to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, German Chancellor Angela Merkel wrote that India would become the “fifth partner country” along with Germany, Britain, Spain and Italy. EADS had also offered India the opportunity to develop the aircraft jointly and make the country one of its production hubs for the sale of aircraft to third countries. Dassault, too, has offered similar terms. France has told the Indian government that if it wins the contract, the first 18 fighter jets will be delivered within 36 months and the remaining 108 will be assembled in India.

Other competitors for the contract were eliminated from the original shortlist last year, as the IAF concluded that they did not meet the technical requirements. The fighter planes in question were the American F-16 and F A-18, the Swedish Grippen and the Russian Mig-35. The United States attaches strings to the sale of high-tech weaponry. Countries like Iran and Venezuela, which have chosen to espouse an independent foreign policy, have been denied the much-needed spares for their U.S.-manufactured planes. After India tested nuclear weapons in 1998, Washington imposed sanctions on it. These sanctions, including on the sale of high-tech weapons, were lifted only after the two countries signed a military agreement in 2006.

Although the U.S. has lost out on the latest defence deal, India has gone in for defence purchases from the U.S. in a big way. The recent contract to buy 22 Apache Attack helicopters, overlooking a competitive Russian bid, is an illustration. India had earlier acquired a refurbished U.S. troop ship with logistics-support helicopters, C-130J Hercules heavy lift transport planes, advanced long-range naval reconnaissance aircraft, and weaponry worth several billions of dollars. Many other deals with the U.S. worth billions are in the pipeline. Russia may still be the single biggest arms supplier to India, but the Western powers, together with their ally Israel, provide most of the imported weaponry. This has led to a feeling of discrimination in Moscow.

For the past one year, EADS and Dassault were locked in a fierce competition to clinch the deal. For Dassault, it was virtually a make-or-break situation. France, despite hectic lobbying by President Nicolas Sarkozy, had failed to sell a single Rafale jet abroad. Among the countries that rejected the Rafale were the Netherlands, Singapore, South Korea, Switzerland and Morocco. The late Libyan leader Muammar Qaddafi was given an “exclusive offer” on Rafales after being wined and dined at the Elysee Palace by Sarkozy during his visit to Paris in 2007. But on his return, the Libyan leader decided that his country could do without the expensive French jets. It is another story that Libya was used as a testing ground for Rafales and Typhoons following the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO)-led invasion of the country last year. Both Dassault and EADS regularly put out bulletins detailing the prowess their planes displayed over Libya.

As recently as 2009, the Rafale and the Eurofighter were prominently displayed at an arms fair in Libya. After the regime change in Libya, there are reports that France is on the verge of clinching a deal with the interim government there for the sale of 14 to18 Rafale jets. Last year, the French had also failed to clinch a deal for the sale of 60 Rafale jets to the United Arab Emirates after negotiations had reached an advanced stage. The UAE government changed its mind at the eleventh hour and is now on the verge of inking a deal for the purchase of the Eurofighter. The Eurofighter, according to most aviation experts, is the superior air-to-air interceptor. Dassault was in deep financial trouble because of the huge costs incurred in the production of the Rafale. In December last year, French Defence Minister Gerard Longet warned that production of the jets would have to be stopped if foreign orders failed to materialise in the near future.

After the Indian government announced its decision, an elated Sarkozy said that “we were waiting for this day for 30 years”. It was good news for the French President, who is facing a difficult re-election later this year. The President said that the Indian government's decision should also be seen as “a signal of confidence in the French economy”. Sarkozy had earlier tried to convince the Brazilian government to go in for Rafale jets. In 2008, Sarkozy and President Luis Inacio Lula da Silva had announced that both countries had reached an agreement for the sale of 36 Rafales. But the Brazilian Defence Ministry was quick to issue a statement clarifying that no final decision had been taken. Now with a new President, Dina Roussef, in office, the Brazilian choice has narrowed down to the U.S. F/A 18 Super Hornet fighters and the Swedish Grippen.

India, in recent years, has emerged as the biggest buyer in the international arms bazaar, outspending even the petro-dollar-soaked monarchies of the Gulf. The Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) has said that India accounted for 9 per cent of all the world's weapons imports in 2010. In early February, the Indian Navy took charge of a Russian-made nuclear submarine, INS Chakra-11. It will be on lease for 10 years at a cost of $1 billion. The much-delayed aircraft carrier, Admiral Gorshkov, is expected to join the Indian Navy by the end of this year. That deal was worth $2.33 billion. India has also signed a $30 billion deal with Russia for the purchase of 250-300 Sukhumi T-50 Stealth fighters. They are expected to be inducted into the IAF by 2018.

Many defence analysts interpret the defence acquisition spree by India as an attempt to match China's growing military strength. Washington is encouraging New Delhi to accelerate its costly defence procurement drive by playing up the so-called threat from China. James Clapper, the U.S. Director of National Intelligence, told the American Congress that the Indian military “is strengthening its forces in preparation to fight a limited conflict along the disputed border, and is working to balance Chinese power projection in the Indian Ocean”. However, the Indian Defence Minister has clarified that India's modernisation of its defence forces is not aimed at China but only to protect the territorial integrity of the country.




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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2012 21:46 
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karan_mc wrote:
Is this the reaction to MMRCA selection in India

Russia Close to Sign Su-35 Fighter Deal With China

Nah...if they want to "react" to MMRCA by buying foreign they could have bought alot more than just 48 fighters. Afterall, the Chinese have alot more money compared to India. $ 3.181 trillions compared to $ 296 billions in foreign exchange reserves.


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2012 21:55 
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Don wrote:
karan_mc wrote:
Is this the reaction to MMRCA selection in India

Russia Close to Sign Su-35 Fighter Deal With China

Nah...if they want to "react" to MMRCA by buying foreign they could have bought alot more than just 48 fighters. Afterall, the Chinese have alot more money compared to India. $ 3.181 trillions compared to $ 296 billions in foreign exchange reserves.


nahh...this is just to perfect j-11bs. they want to have a look at su-35 and its modern avionics and tvc and other stuff like ols irst and irbis. they are expert in reverse engineering.


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2012 22:22 
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Russian this time have asked return Guarantee that it won't be copied or used to upgrade their other J-11 fleets


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2012 22:27 
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Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
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Location: Col of the regiment, ORR JTF unit
and we all know what such guarantees are worth :mrgreen:
Rus is probably raising funds for PAKDA their next bomber project by selling IP of the Su35BM - an excellent plane but one they cannot buy in large nos at present.


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2012 22:34 
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BRFite

Joined: 30 Aug 2007 20:35
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Location: USA
    [b]karan_mc Post subject: Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!Posted: 06 Mar 2012 19:57


    BRFite

    Joined: 02 Dec 2006 20:53
    Posts: 545 Is this the reaction to MMRCA selection in India

    Russia Close to Sign Su-35 Fighter Deal With China



[/b]If china put these bird against us.do you think we shuold complain to russia.Why we did't buy these SU 35(it was offered).It will be cheaper to operate compare to Refel.Because parts and service will be close to SU 30 mki.


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