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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2012 22:39 
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Singha wrote:
and we all know what such guarantees are worth :mrgreen:
Rus is probably raising funds for PAKDA their next bomber project by selling IP of the Su35BM - an excellent plane but one they cannot buy in large nos at present.


They want money to Run production for Su35 its self , since they are inducting but the pace is slow


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2012 23:05 
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Quote:
India, Dassault enter final MMRCA negotiations 
PrintBy: Greg Waldron Singapore 1 hours ago Source:
India has confirmed that final negotiations with Dassault for 126 Rafale fighters have commenced, and that the Indian air force plans to phase out its Mikoyan MiG-21 aircraft from 2014.

The defence ministry says final talks are now under way with Dassault, which in early February secured so-called "L1 vendor" status, denoting that it was the lowest-price-compliant bidder for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition.

A defence ministry official also dismissed as false a report in an Indian publication that quoted unnamed sources as saying it had raised concerns about calculations pertaining to the Rafale's life-cycle costs.


Achieving L1 status allows Dassault to conduct final negotiations for the deal with India's Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC). A CNC is comprised of a defence programme's key stakeholders, and in the case of MMRCA is likely to include organisations such as the air force and Hindustan Aeronautics, which will build 108 of the aircraft domestically.

Once launched, negotiations between the CNC and Dassault could take between six months and one year to complete, according to an industry source.

Analysts have estimated the value of the MMRCA contest as ranging between $10 billion and $20 billion. The Rafale's original rivals for the requirement were the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper, RSK MiG-35 and Saab Gripen NG. All but the Rafale and Typhoon were eliminated in April 2011.

The defence ministry source says India will begin phasing out its MiG-21s from 2014. While popular among experienced pilots, the MiG-21s in air force service have suffered from obsolescence problems as well as a number of fatal accidents in recent years.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ns-369150/


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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2012 01:56 
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^^ They had the highest costs in the Libyan operations.


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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2012 06:01 
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^^ because they flew more missions, dropped more droppings?


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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2012 06:12 
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Image

http://defense-update.com/20120305_elbi ... ology.html

Quote:
The Boeing Company has selected Elbit Systems to provide advanced avionics systems for its fighter aircraft, including the upgraded versions of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and F-15SE Silent Eagle.Large Area Display Technology
The system employs 11-inch by 19-inch (27.9 x 48.2 cm) Large Area Display (LAD) integrating tactical data, mission planning and flight information into a complete situational picture responding to specific mission phase and pilot controls. LAD is designed to operate in synch with the Boeing JHMCS II helmet mounted display,


maybe we can integrate these elbit large area displays into rafale, super-30 mki or amca or probably fgfa . i think we should seriously consider super hornet for n-mmrca for navy. i wanted rafale to win in mmrca,but still my heart says that there should be one yanky fighter in our armed forces be it navy or air force


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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2012 08:01 
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wow 11x19 is seriously good. I like I like.

Rus due to its funding issues is in a bind. modern projects are very costly. it has to feed the wolf some pieces of its own flesh to keep the rest of body healthy and alive.


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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2012 10:39 
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Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31
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Su-30MKI versus Rafale

http://www.aviatia.net/versus/rafale-vs-su-30mki/


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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2012 10:44 
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^^
Rafale vs su30mki. This line alone shows the quality of the data :-)
Fuel Economy Rafale: 0.27 km/l – 0.63 NM/gallon
Su30: 0.58 km/l – 1.36 NM/gallon


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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2012 15:19 
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Joined: 09 Mar 2010 06:40
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Location: Parashurama Shristi
self delete.


Last edited by Ganesh_S on 07 Mar 2012 16:20, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2012 15:24 
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Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28
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Location: In between wars in our time
expect to hear a report soon on how the typhoon's life cycle costs are lower...


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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2012 15:31 
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Joined: 26 Nov 2011 13:22
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Why this sudden brouhaha ?

Is it the Anglo - German EF lobby working overtime to sabotage the Rafale deal or is it the usual gang of grubby-fingered
babus trying to extract some juice for themselves and their political masters ?

Or a combination of both these forces ?

Any guesses from fellow BR members ?


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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2012 15:37 
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un named sources can say anything to anyone
why only yesterday un named sources said that shiv was dating aishwarya
meanhile confirmed unnamed sources are saying that I was seen in a Bips/Sush sandwich


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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2012 15:51 
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Joined: 05 May 2007 01:20
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mmrca deal has become a hot topic in b-school interview processes. in group discussions and interviews of premier b schools,questions regarding mmrca deal was asked. i got a call from imt ghaziabad, mdi gurgaon and iim-kashipur and in all of them something regarding mmrca was asked. in imt-ghaziabad,, a premier b school, the interviewer asked me whether it was wise to go for rafale when fifth generation f-35 was getting ready for induction, in iim gd the topic was whether mmrca selection fair given many jets were on offer. so it surprises me. mdi gurgaon had a case study on mmrca. i guess this is a hot topic.

Ganesh_S wrote:
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/232395/mod-raises-objections-over-rafales.html

Quote:
Top IAF sources said the two MoD members on the Contract Negotiations Committee (CNC) have questioned the low lifecycle cost that was earlier worked out in respect of the Rafale which was chosen over the Eurofighter Typhoon for the Air Force’s MMRCA programme that envisages supply from Dassault 126 aircraft for a massive $20 billion, the largest open tender military aviation deal in the world.

The sources said that the “differences” that have cropped up among the CNC members are centred around the Rafale’s lifecycle cost which the MoD representatives have declared to be far less than what it should be.

“There is no unanimity among the CNC members... and failing a unanimous decision, the Rafale acquisition could well get pushed back,” sources said. While the maintenance cost of a Saab-Gripen single engine aircraft is over $3,000 per hour, that of the far superior Rafale could be estimated to be much higher.

The MoD representatives’ assessment that a Rafale’s lifecycle cost should be higher appears to have stemmed from the defence establishment’s historical reliance on Russian aircraft
. According to sources, the MoD officials on the CNC are “not satisfied” with the lower assessment of the lifecycle cost.

The MoD’s disagreement with other CNC members comes at a time when the committee will also have to review other “items” involving the Rafale, including the cost of air frame, engine, avionics, weapons system and spare parts support among others. It is learnt that the MoD representatives raised their objections some time after the commercial bids were opened and continued to object to the low computation of a Rafale aircraft’s lifecycle cost in some recent meetings of the CNC.


old news already denied by MOD
SEE THIS.THIS SAYS IT ALL
arthuro wrote:
Quote:
India, Dassault enter final MMRCA negotiations 
PrintBy: Greg Waldron Singapore 1 hours ago Source:
India has confirmed that final negotiations with Dassault for 126 Rafale fighters have commenced, and that the Indian air force plans to phase out its Mikoyan MiG-21 aircraft from 2014.

The defence ministry says final talks are now under way with Dassault, which in early February secured so-called "L1 vendor" status, denoting that it was the lowest-price-compliant bidder for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition.

A defence ministry official also dismissed as false a report in an Indian publication that quoted unnamed sources as saying it had raised concerns about calculations pertaining to the Rafale's life-cycle costs.


Achieving L1 status allows Dassault to conduct final negotiations for the deal with India's Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC). A CNC is comprised of a defence programme's key stakeholders, and in the case of MMRCA is likely to include organisations such as the air force and Hindustan Aeronautics, which will build 108 of the aircraft domestically.

Once launched, negotiations between the CNC and Dassault could take between six months and one year to complete, according to an industry source.

Analysts have estimated the value of the MMRCA contest as ranging between $10 billion and $20 billion. The Rafale's original rivals for the requirement were the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper, RSK MiG-35 and Saab Gripen NG. All but the Rafale and Typhoon were eliminated in April 2011.

The defence ministry source says India will begin phasing out its MiG-21s from 2014. While popular among experienced pilots, the MiG-21s in air force service have suffered from obsolescence problems as well as a number of fatal accidents in recent years.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ns-369150/


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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2012 15:55 
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BRFite

Joined: 05 May 2007 01:20
Posts: 263
Location: ghaziabad
Singha wrote:
wow 11x19 is seriously good. I like I like.

Rus due to its funding issues is in a bind. modern projects are very costly. it has to feed the wolf some pieces of its own flesh to keep the rest of body healthy and alive.

I WISH IAF GETS these displays in most of its future fighters like lca mk2,amca ,fgfa and super-30.elbit avionics are already seen in lca,su-30,jaguar and dhruv. let us hope iaf gets these.

Lalmohan wrote:
un named sources can say anything to anyone
why only yesterday un named sources said that shiv was dating aishwarya
meanhile confirmed unnamed sources are saying that I was seen in a Bips/Sush sandwich


nope shiv ji is so into katrina.shiv ji adores her ornaments like rbe-2aa,meteor,spectra etc. ash bips sush are old stories :rotfl: :wink: lol


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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2012 16:16 
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saptarishi wrote:
old news already denied by MOD
SEE THIS.THIS SAYS IT ALL


Sorry, it just appeared to have been posted 6 hrs ago. you are right the article was written on 5th.


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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2012 18:00 
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saptarishi wrote:
Image

http://defense-update.com/20120305_elbi ... ology.html

Quote:
The Boeing Company has selected Elbit Systems to provide advanced avionics systems for its fighter aircraft, including the upgraded versions of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and F-15SE Silent Eagle.Large Area Display Technology
The system employs 11-inch by 19-inch (27.9 x 48.2 cm) Large Area Display (LAD) integrating tactical data, mission planning and flight information into a complete situational picture responding to specific mission phase and pilot controls. LAD is designed to operate in synch with the Boeing JHMCS II helmet mounted display,


maybe we can integrate these elbit large area displays into rafale, super-30 mki or amca or probably fgfa . i think we should seriously consider super hornet for n-mmrca for navy. i wanted rafale to win in mmrca,but still my heart says that there should be one yanky fighter in our armed forces be it navy or air force


I agree a full Spec SH Internatioanl with all the upgrades including new 20% extra thrust engines, CFTs, new MAWS, new cockpit, further reduced rcs, etc would have been the ideal aircraft. It would also have been cheaper by a long shot and with a more advanced weapons pack, the yankee piss poor deal making in this case was their undoing.

I guess a separate order of 100 SH would be ideal.

This type of single large display could make it into the PAKFA.

Super 30 will mostly have a su-35 style cockpit

http://www.google.be/imgres?q=su-35+coc ... 29,r:3,s:0


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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2012 19:06 
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Posts: 180
Austin wrote:


I am tempted to take it with a pinch of salt. I don't know how they calculated the probability of win and this is for the first time I have seen aircraft being compared in terms of fuel economy (like they are scooters)


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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2012 21:59 
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Image

Image

Image

this was an ideal mmrca,alas the controls and stupid pacts like cismoa etc. have ruined its chances. with the new cockpit from elbit,cft,apg-79, higher thrust gef414 EPE engines,internal IRST. JHMCS 2 HELMET and a far cheaper price, it was a better mmrca compared to rafale but what we wanted was complete tech transfer and handing over of source codes. rafale is ideal in that sense. but for N-MMRCA we should definitely give this a thought. for follow on order of 63 jets for IAF i think rafale is good because it has already been selected. spare a thought for the boeing guys and super hornet, they lost in japan and india,but this jet is really good no doubt


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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2012 22:11 
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^^ Well, they'd have stood a much better chance had they introduced it earlier and demoed a flying proto for tech evals instead of just a mockup at AI 11 - too little too late.


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PostPosted: 07 Mar 2012 22:45 
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Cain Marko wrote:
^^ Well, they'd have stood a much better chance had they introduced it earlier and demoed a flying proto for tech evals instead of just a mockup at AI 11 - too little too late.




super hornet international roadmap detailed.with n-mmrca they can make it. i think mig-29k with aesa,rafale ,f-35c and super hornet international roadmap will be the contenders. with 45 mig-29k already ordered for ins vikramaditya and ins vkrant,it is easy to guess that iac-2 will be having lca mk2 and n-mmrca. it will most probably be a 65000 tonne carrier.indian navy plans a fleet of 100-120 fighters. 45 mig-29k,40 lca mk2 and 40 n-mmrca just fits the bill,but that will be post 2015 so most probably rafale or f-35 will win the deal. naval fgfa or pak-fa can also be there.


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2012 00:11 
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Update on BAe digging dirt on dassault winning the MRCA: they have identified a consultant that may have been involved.


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2012 01:00 
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shyamd wrote:
Update on BAe digging dirt on dassault winning the MRCA: they have identified a consultant that may have been involved.

the mod and iaf should sign the contract without delay after concluding the negotiation . bae might resort to other dirty tricks.


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2012 03:23 
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shyamd wrote:
Update on BAe digging dirt on dassault winning the MRCA: they have identified a consultant that may have been involved.



A BRF member perhaps?


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2012 05:01 
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^^ Lets see. Why this kolaveri though? Is it the disbelief that there HAS to be some foul play to get the L1? Does that mean Rafale is really more expensive? I mean to dig dirt on Dassault - that would mean someone at the top is seriously pissed off - and obviously the french govt/Dassault will respond in kind if there are allegations made.

But at least we know that the ball is rolling and BAe is looking for some mud to throw.


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2012 05:11 
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shyamd wrote:
? I mean to dig dirt on Dassault

Why? Isn't that what BAe is doing?

Quote:
- that would mean someone at the top is seriously pissed off -

The only ones pissed off are members of the EF consortium. For losing the contract. Well tough luck. I hope the govt. asks them to pi$$ off if they start creating too much trouble.


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2012 06:52 
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Ban EF for 10 years!!!!!!!


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2012 07:01 
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BAE and HMG were involved in kickbacks for the saudi deals. they could rightly be banned here for 50 yrs for unethical and adharmic business practices. they better watch where they are treading.


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2012 10:05 
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Lalmohan wrote:
why only yesterday un named sources said that shiv was dating aishwarya
meanhile confirmed unnamed sources are saying that I was seen in a Bips/Sush sandwich


WOW BR is going places !!!!!!!


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2012 03:08 
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Bernard Baiocco, the former director of Thales International Asia who retired in 2006 and is now a consultant. Baiocco has been based in Singapore for many years but he is a specialist in South-East Asia rather than India. He is one person BAe are focusing on.


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2012 07:59 
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from 5th Feb 2012 - seems S Swamy is in the game.
http://janataparty.org/pdf/fighterjet.pdf
Although it is unclear whether any of these families have been involved in the fighter jet deal, industry
insiders claim that Bernard Baiocco, a veteran French consultant, took part in background negotiations.
Baiocco, a former employee of the Thales defence firm, allegedly met a senior and influential official in
the administration.
Last week Thales, which contributes radar and electronic systems to the Rafale, said Baiocco was not
working on its behalf. However, a Paris defence industry source said Baiocco was part of a team set up
by the consortium GIE Rafale, a group of 500 companies involved in making the plane.
In Delhi one prominent source suggested that Baiocco’s role was influential. “I was told that the
Eurofighter had won and then this changed,” said Subramanian Swamy, an Indian MP. “Baiocco was
here and he went around, and everything changed after that.”
Last week Baiocco could not be reached for comment and Dassault declined to answer questions about
his alleged meeting with the senior official. The French insist they have become the preferred bidder on
pure value for money
.....
Another Westminster source said that after allegations of corruption surrounding the huge Al-Yamamah
arms deal with Saudi Arabia, BAE had been at pains to play by the rules. “They are absolutely terrified
about doing anything that could even be construed as not cricket,” said the insider. “I’m not sure some of
their competitors play by the same rules.” :rotfl:


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2012 16:06 
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Dassault Says Indian Fighter Jet Deal Secure as Talks Intensify

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-09/dassault-says-indian-fighter-jet-deal-secure-as-talks-intensify.html

Quote:
For 15 years, we’ve been saying the Rafale costs less than the Eurofighter,” Edelstenne said. “Now it’s the Indians who are saying it.”

Dassault will prevail against the Eurofighter in India because in every competition where the two jets have been in direct competition, the French model gained higher rankings, even if it ultimately didn’t win the final deal, the CEO said.


Quote:
Little by little, the whole plane will come to be produced in India within 10 years,” he said. “We are open to all transfers of technology, I don’t fear competition.


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2012 19:35 
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Lalmohan wrote:
un named sources can say anything to anyone
why only yesterday un named sources said that shiv was dating aishwarya
meanhile confirmed unnamed sources are saying that I was seen in a Bips/Sush sandwich


You lucky $#$%^!#^$#


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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2012 19:52 
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Just great. This deal is sought to be pulled into corruption scandal, too. Please leave this deal alone. We need this fighter. And we need all of them, i.e. 128 units, yesterday.


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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2012 11:58 
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Antony tells MoD to probe Rafale deal

Tamasha start again. God save India


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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2012 11:59 
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Eurofighter 'stands ready' to renegotiate MMRCA bid with India

Looks like critical parts of CAPTOR sourced from the US company Micronetics


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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2012 12:04 
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At times I feel Antony is a blessing but thats just a minority. The good thing that seems to be coming out of this is that bofors from drawings is being made at OFB, whether it eventually turns out to be good we dont know. Also pray that we doint get into war while this turmoil is unfolding and see who is raising the complain mysoora reddy. he is a joke of a politician in AP

Added later well when r.chowdhary could do it why not m.reddy


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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2012 12:43 
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Mr Teddy must be a defence expert when claiming that EF was sent over Lybia to compensate for the "lack of precision" of Rafale. If he was really unpartial he would know that EF bombing was so inappropriate to this battlefield with 1000lbs bombs that the number of EF decreased from 10 to 4.
And his files must be quite old, because everyone knows that while UAE officially rejected Rafala in last November, discussions were never interrupted and newspapers say that a contract is nearly to be signed with Dassault.
And if he wants India to be "clean", the way towards EF is all but clean with allegations of corruption in Austria and moreover in Saudi Arabia.
I am confident that Rafale will remain L1 even after inquiry. And it'll at the end prevent any further allegation.


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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2012 12:57 
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if the EF consortium members had any brains, they would be pitching for full JV on AMCA instead of harping on about EF now


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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012 01:15 
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Cross post from Keypubs by Arthuro

Quote:
Who could work with Dassault ?
Air & Cosmos , march 9

To fulfill the conditions of the MoD in matter of offsets, Dassault Aviation will not only work with large state firms like HALand Bharat Electronics, the champion of Indian radars. The MoD wants also to promote the industrial private sector. Its agency for offsets, the Dofa, has referenced fifty players capable of producing equipment or systems for the Indian Rafale. These include Bharat Heavy Electricals, a diversified group which manufactures flight simulators and avionics, Larsen & Toubro (sensors, radars ...), Samtel (cockpit equipment, navigation), the latter being a partner of Thales for renovation of the Indian Mirage 2000 through a JV. There are also Alpha-ITL Electro Optics and Memory Electronics, which manufactures optronic equipment, or groups not necessarily specialists in matter of defense, like Reliance (who just signed an agreement with Dassault), Mahindra & Mahindra and Tata Power. The latter has created a division in combat systems and data link. Without forgetting ECIL, which manufactures joysticks and black boxes, or Precision Electronics, specialist in cabling.
In contrast, the Dofa list has few industrial specialized in aerostructures: there is Aurora Integrated Systems and Infra Polytec. Logically, this area is the prerogative of HAL.


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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012 13:08 
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AKA told IAF chief that MRCA will be scrapped if any foul play is found. Please pray for there to be no corruption.

SS doesn't realise that he is playing on national defence preparedness.


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