Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Mar 2012 08:10

2nd M2K crash in 10 days. this time a 2 seater after takeoff from gwalior. both pilots ejected safely. no casualties on ground.

a villager with a mobile camera apparently captured the last few mins.

srai · Post by **srai** » 06 Mar 2012 12:00

^^^

IAF will need to acquire at least 10 second-hand Mirage-2000s to keeps its 3 squadrons up to full strength for the next 20 years.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 06 Mar 2012 16:59

President presents Standard Presentation to 24 Squadron And 111 Helicopter Unit

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 07 Mar 2012 23:25

India makes payments to French firm to upgrade Mirage fleet

NEW DELHI: India has started making payments to French defence major Dassault Aviation for upgrading its fleet of Mirage 2000 aircraft under a deal worth $2.4 billion.

The Indian government has started making payments for the deal to upgrade the Mirage aircraft, sources said.

As a result of the payments released for the deal by India, the price of dollar was impacted upon in the exchange today.

As per the proposal, French firms Dassault and Thales will upgrade the aircraft, which will add 20-25 years to the life of the Mirages, inducted by the IAF in the mid-80s.

Two different proposals, one for the upgrade of systems of the aircraft and the other for over 400 MICA missiles for the upgraded fleet, were placed before the CCS.

Under the deal, the French firms will help in upgrading the avionics, navigation systems, mission computers, electronic warfare systems and radars bringing the aircraft to the Mirage-2000-5 standards.

The French companies will have to invest over $900 million into the Indian defence sector as defence offsets.

As per the Indian defence offsets policy, foreign vendors bagging deals worth over Rs 300 crore have to invest at least 30% of the worth of the deal back into the Indian defence, civilian aerospace and homeland security sectors.

As per the agreement, India has sent two of its aircraft to France for upgrades and thereafter the rest would be upgraded at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited facilities.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Mar 2012 08:18

imo it is radar urgent we get ourself a basic GMTI capability by mounting the Elta ELM2055M radar and our command consoles into the EMB145 airframe
http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/FILES/5/36835.pdf

sure it wont match the E8s range and power, but being in a undie is better than pura nanga.

in all weather it will lift the fog of war upto 100s of km behind the front and permit efficient A2G sortie planning.

we likely have this payload on some searcher but lack of onboard power and antenna size likely makes it a tactical platform only now.

in parallel with AEW embraer can be asked to mod a EMB145 with underbelly radar housing and deliver.

EMB145 GMTI and Rafale + SDB2 combo would be a good mix.

member_20617 · Post by **member_20617** » 08 Mar 2012 16:10

Craig Alpert wrote:India makes payments to French firm to upgrade Mirage fleet

From Wiki:
‘In March 2010, India and France finalized the long delayed deal to upgrade all of India's Mirage-2000H to Mirage-2000-5 Mk 2 variant with new radar systems, a new weapon suite, missiles, electronic warfare system etc, at the cost of 43.9 million dollars per plane.[30] The first four to six Mirages will be upgraded in France, with the rest 50 or so being upgraded in India by Hindustan Aeronautics under transfer of technology. Under the upgrade, the entire airframe will be stripped down to be re-wired and re-equipped with new avionics, mission computers, glass cockpits, helmet-mounted displays, electronic warfare suites and of course weapon systems to extend and enhance the operational life of the multi-role fighters by around 20 years.[31] In July 2011, India approved an upgrade to the avionics and other systems on its Mirage 2000s.[20]’

I know the deal has been done but isn’t the cost of $43.9 million per plane rather expensive considering that these are old planes bought by India in 1980s?

I am not a military expert but we could have used this money to pay for more Rafale fighter planes or some other suitable new fighter planes.

We get 20 more years extension for each Mirage but a new plane would definitely last longer than 20 years (may be 40 years)

May be the price includes MICA missiles? The Armée de l'Air received its first MICA batch in the 1990s with its 37 Mirage 2000-5. So why are we arming our fighter Mirage planes (+Rafale once acquired) with MICA missiles which is a 15-20 years old technology. Shouldn’t we equip our planes with latest missiles?

Gurus, what I am trying to find out is that is this a good deal in long term? Thanks.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 08 Mar 2012 16:36

shankaraa - nowadays the cost of an aviation weapons platform is about 60-70% electronics and the rest on metal. given the clue above that this is a full strip down and rewiring - that means databus, power, mission computers, nav systems, radar, ew, other ancilliary systems, plus comms, network centric warfare capabilities - both in the air and on teh ground, test equipment, labs, simulators, etc., etc. - this sort of upgrade is bound to cost a huge amount. there will be significant commonality with rafale systems as well. the raw cost number may not be everything it appears to be

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 09 Mar 2012 14:28

The Indian Air Force in Wars - Air Commodore Jasjit Singh, Indian Air force [IAF]

This article is a review of the part played by the Indian Air Force (IAF) in, and the background to, conflicts across the sub-continent (mainly post-independence). It is written from an Indian viewpoint. The early history of the IAF started with its formation in 1932 and continued through to its contribution to the Second World War supporting Slim's 14th Army. On Indian independence the Air Force was restructured and supported land operations in the aftermath. Lack of an accurate intelligence picture preceding the Sino-Indian War 1962 led to significant logistics problems for the Indian Army and subsequently to a large proportion of IAF effort being directed to air transport at the cost of the deployment of combat air power. The War for Kashmir 1965 saw the use of Mystere and Vampire aircraft in anti-armour and infantry sorties, with air superiority being sought by dominating the skies rather than attacking airfields. India and Pakistan again went to war in 1971 with India initially operating to limited objectives set prior to the opening of hostilities. The IAF flew more combat sorties compared to their opponents but both air forces lost similar numbers of aircraft. In 1999, in Kashmir, the IAF provided high-altitude helicopter and tactical airlift logistics and communication support, with Canberra, Mig and Mirage providing recce and close air support. The IAF is modernising with 40% of its combat force being 4th generation aircraft and has set its sights on becoming a strategic force.

Read the full post »»

Jagan Sir's book has been used as a source by the Commodore for this write-up

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 09 Mar 2012 14:40

It has been close to a year after the crash of the sitara. No news floating around wondering whats up with the sitara

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Mar 2012 21:25

as per official plan, 2 sqdns of mki in each of tezpur and chabua.
the 1st sqdn in tezpur would be nearing up to full strength by now or already there.
in 2009, someone analyzed imagery and showed where the runway got extended, the intial troop of MKI and even a heron uav
http://osgeoint.blogspot.in/2012/01/ind ... ezpur.html

recently ajai shukha showed a couple of MOD handout pix of Ex Pralay featuring 3 MKI and around 12 pilots/wso . its probably chabua where su30 ops was inducted in 3/2011 with 2 MKI being stationed. that sqdn must still be enroute to full strength and maybe it has around 6-10ish planes now
pix here http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2012/03/r ... n-air.html

this years production should complete the sqdn at chabua and start off the 2nd sqdn in tezpur from HAL. I am not sure if any IAPO planes off the new lot of 42 will come this yr.

srai · Post by **srai** » 10 Mar 2012 23:53

^^^

The 42 MKI order is being handled by HAL between 2015-2018 and not by IAPO. The total assembled at HAL is 222 (140 + 40 + 42). These are being built in 3 phases: (1) completely from SDK, (2) partial SDK and partial local manufacture, and (3) mostly local manufacture. Since 2010/11, HAL has achieved the phase 3 production capability. AFAIK, around 120+ units still remain to be produced.

To meet its 2018 deadline, HAL would need to be averaging production at around 20 MKI/year for the next 6 years. So this means one full MKI squadron a year will be inducted into the IAF for the next 6 years. Total MKI squadrons will be 15. There maybe an additional order (beyond the 50+222) to replace aircrafts lost and add to reserves.

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 11 Mar 2012 01:12

"IAF has till now received close to 190 fighters out of a total order of 272"

- Air Marshal (Retd) V.K. Bhatia in SP's Aviation, Jan 2012.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 11 Mar 2012 10:18

srai wrote:^^^

The 42 MKI order is being handled by HAL between 2015-2018 and not by IAPO. The total assembled at HAL is 222 (140 + 40 + 42). These are being built in 3 phases: (1) completely from SDK, (2) partial SDK and partial local manufacture, and (3) mostly local manufacture. Since 2010/11, HAL has achieved the phase 3 production capability. AFAIK, around 120+ units still remain to be produced.

To meet its 2018 deadline, HAL would need to be averaging production at around 20 MKI/year for the next 6 years. So this means one full MKI squadron a year will be inducted into the IAF for the next 6 years. Total MKI squadrons will be 15. There maybe an additional order (beyond the 50+222) to replace aircrafts lost and add to reserves.

I am not sure that 222 number is accurate Srai. First 50 were from Russia, HAL was originally supposed to build 140 from 2004-2017 (now changed to 2014). In addition to these 140, it will build the latest order of 42 from 2014-2017. Total of ~ 182. Otoh, the fast track purchase of 40 a/c ordered in 2007 came directly from Irkut, iirc there are some images of Su-30MKIs leaving the factory at Irkut around 2009. That order should now be finished. They will start working on upgrades perhaps.

So, the breakdown seems to be 182 from HAL, and 90 from Russia. As of now HAL should have built around 100 birds starting 2004 @ 8 p.a. slowly upping the pace to 14 p.a. And about 90 should have been received from Roos. Altogether, the number should be upwards of 170. The 190 figure in Sneh's post above might not be too far off imho.

CM

srai · Post by **srai** » 11 Mar 2012 12:06

^^^

You are most likely correct.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Mar 2012 13:35

so does 170 mean we have 10 squadrons now?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 11 Mar 2012 14:06

Well, they were organized in 7 sqds that we know of:

Lohegaon: No2, No20, No30, No31
Tezpur: No8
Chabua: No102
Bareilly: No24

Expect some more pretty soon so around 10 by year end should be v.doable.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Mar 2012 16:16

IIRC, 31 will move or has moved to Jodhpur.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Mar 2012 18:37

not sure what became of this plan in 2008

TOI
INDIA
IAF's first Sukhoi squadron in Punjab by 2011
November 16, 2008 | PTI
NEW DELHI: In a move to provide teeth to its Air Force fleet along the Indo-Pak border, India will deploy two of its air superiority Sukhoi fighter squadrons in Halwara air base in Punjab by 2011. The Indian Air Force's (IAF) sword-arm Western Air Command (WAC) has drawn up a two-year plan and is preparing to host the Sukhoi squadrons at the Halwara fighter base near Ludhiana. "We will get the first of the Su-30 squadrons to be based under the WAC by 2011 at the Halwara air base," WAC chief Air Marshal Pranab Kumar Barbora said.

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 11 Mar 2012 21:37

Does anybody else also feel like the SU-30MKI is like the MIG-21.I mean it is a wonderful plane in it's time,we produce it under license like the MIG-21.I really hope it's hope it's fate is better than the MIG-21 in the future,it's not labelled a flying coffin and not given the respect that it deserves.One of many similarities also include that it is an integral part of our fleet.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 12 Mar 2012 05:44

rohitvats wrote:IIRC, 31 will move or has moved to Jodhpur.

Jodhpur was identified as one of the first bases for the MRCA as well. It's already overflowing with fighter and helo squadrons. 31 may have been the one moved to Halwara like the article posted by GD says.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 12 Mar 2012 05:46

Cain Marko wrote:Well, they were organized in 7 sqds that we know of:

Lohegaon: No2, No20, No30, No31
Tezpur: No8
Chabua: No102
Bareilly: No24

Expect some more pretty soon so around 10 by year end should be v.doable.

I think 8 and 24 are in Bareilly. No. 2 is in Tezpur.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 12 Mar 2012 09:53

^ So if 31, and 2 are not in Pune, I wouldn't be surprised if there are a couple of sqds worth of MKIs right now at Lohegaon waiting to be assigned.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Mar 2012 14:54

methinks we need a good base to cover ladakh,POK,Sinkiang region as well - how about 1 sqdn of su30 and 1 sqdn of MRCA in Leh itself alongside 2 sqdn of upg-Mig29?
(the base will need expansion no doubt)...and another unit of Mig29 in thoise.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 12 Mar 2012 15:02

Singhaji,
As it is, we have just 3 squadrons of MiG29's with us. To concentrate them in Ladakh region would be a bad idea, IMO. Wouldn't it be better to base a couple of squadrons of LCA Mk-1/2 at Leh and Thoise and keep a detachment of MiG 29's at each of the locations for CAP and escort duties.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Mar 2012 15:25

whatever works. we are a bit thin on the ground up north for sure.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 12 Mar 2012 22:55

Is Leh AFS large enough to base an entire squadron? Google maps shows these shelters off the main runway (Link), but I can't see a single IAF aircraft anywhere. The Mig-29 detachment from 28sq was either recalled back to Jamnagar or is hidden in those shelters. Anyways the facilities might need some serious expansion to support an entire squadron.

Secondly, we don't know if the Rambha might face takeoff issues from Leh. The only two aircraft that we know can takeoff from there with a useful payload for sure are the Mig-29 (since the IAF based a few there) and LCA(since it was extensively tested there). Rambha is a big plane doesn't share the Mig-29's awesome T/W ratio.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 12 Mar 2012 23:06

aniket wrote:Does anybody else also feel like the SU-30MKI is like the MIG-21.I mean it is a wonderful plane in it's time,we produce it under license like the MIG-21.I really hope it's hope it's fate is better than the MIG-21 in the future,it's not labelled a flying coffin and not given the respect that it deserves.One of many similarities also include that it is an integral part of our fleet.

And you wrote this because you had a sudden urge to write...anything..

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 12 Mar 2012 23:24

Singha wrote:whatever works. we are a bit thin on the ground up north for sure.

Yeah I've thought so too. Have they built up any infrastructure for that base? Also, it is so close to Chipak that there would be v.little time for intercepts. Perhaps an Aerostat might be of great use as well. IIRC, they were supposed to thoroughly fixup Nyoma as well. Ideally we should have at Nyomi and Leh:

1 sqd MKI (CAP + Deep Strike)
1 sqd QRA + strike (either Rafale or Mig-29)
1-2 Battery AKASH
Aerostat coverage for EW.- what happened to the ARDE aerostat? AFAIK it was ready for induction circa 2010.

Don't think single engined birds such as LCA will do too well this high up. At best, it'll be a one trick pony - point defence, perhaps CAP as well. Natchiket, Rambha was tested from Leh, iirc No24 was stationed there for some time. Those are some interesting looking shelters - I reckon they are at least 200 feet long and about 50 feet wide, enough to hold more than a couple of Ramhbas at a time? There are about 14 structures. So, at least one sqd can be based there imho. A Rafale/fulcrum would be ideal considering its smaller footprint. But they will have to expand if more are to be sheltered there. At the very least 1 sqd @ Leh and another at Nyoma.

CM

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 12 Mar 2012 23:33

i have a different view - the forward areas should be heavy in sams and aaa guarding radars - with specific zones and coridoors
plaaf attacks are going to come, and they will have their air dominance assets up as well, but they will probably strike with missiles first

our air should be dispersed in depth in the northern plains and deploy against the 'gaps in the sam zones' and as a rear wall
strike packages should operate from the rear too - due to payload reasons.

however, armed helos should be deployed as far forward (and high) as feasible to deal with CAS

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 13 Mar 2012 10:56

Third batch of IAF An-32 RE aircraft leaves for India

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 13 Mar 2012 12:22

IAF to convert Kargil Airport into full-fledged air base

Jammu, Mar 12 (PTI) The Jammu and Kashmir government today said the IAF is planning to convert Kargil airport into a full-fledged air force base in the state. "Indian Air Force is planning to convert Kargil airport into a full-fledged air force base in Jammu and Kashmir," state Finance Minister Abdul Rahim Rather told the legislative Assembly in reply to a query of PDP member Peerzada Mansoor Hussain. Rather, who presented the budget in the Assembly today, said, "Kargil airport is to be extended by 1,500 feet. The work is being assigned to the Defence Ministry." The development work of the Kargil Air Force base will commence once the land issuance is settled, he said, adding that a high-level team from the central government is expected to visit Kargil shortly to draw a road map for resolution of all connected issues.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Mar 2012 12:26

in A2A config would it be fair to say the Mig29 has the best T:w and highest climb rate of any IAF fighter now?

makes them a natural fit for hot n high ops in ladakh and HP. plus the upg units will have multirole strike ability

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 13 Mar 2012 21:53

Let us do a quick comparison:

Mig-29/Su-30MKI/Rafale

4 MRAAM + 2 SRAAM + 50% internal fuel

MiG: 1000kg + 11500kg + 2250kg fuel = 15000kg/16600kgf via 2 RD33.3, TWR = 1.10
MKI: 1000kg + 18400kg + 5000kg fuel = 24500kg/25000kgf via 2 AL-31FP, TWR = 1.02
Rafale: 800kg + 10000kg + 2400kg fuel = 13200kg/15000kgf via 2 M88. TWR = 1.13
LCA: 6500kg + 1000kg + 1250kg guel = 8750kg/8500kgf via 1 GE f404-in20 = 0.97
M2K: 800kg + 7600kg + 1750kg fuel = 10150kg/10000kgf via M53.p2 = 0.98

Yes, as of now the and in the near future the fulcrum is king, and I have been a bit conservative when it comes to empty weight, which should be less than that 11500kg figure. But still, the MKI ain't that bad either. Let us see what happens during the Super 30 upgrade. Rafale, despite people cribbing about its TWR is pretty hot.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 13 Mar 2012 21:57

Singha wrote:in A2A config would it be fair to say the Mig29 has the best T:w and highest climb rate of any IAF fighter now?

makes them a natural fit for hot n high ops in ladakh and HP. plus the upg units will have multirole strike ability

Well as per wiki it's initial climb rate (65,000 ft/min) is higher than even the EF and Rafale. It'll probably be lower than the EF at higher altitudes though. And the upgraded 29s will be heavier thanks to the dorsal fuel tank + new radar and avionics.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 13 Mar 2012 22:02

CM, in your calculations one thing to note is that at 50% fuel and similar payload the MKI will have a greater range than any of the others. The others will need at least 1 drop tank for a comparable range. Won't matter in combat since it'll be dropped but will matter during takeoff at high altitudes.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Mar 2012 07:55

our Mig29 operate with a single dorsal conformal tank. so it looks like basing the Mig29 in Ladakh and avantipur as a frontal aviation asset is a good idea. Leh needs to be expanded into a huge base housing considerable strike assets, or else build some other bases in the north punjab and Hp foothills area to permit strike a/c to take off with fuller payloads.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 14 Mar 2012 12:52

Landed at about 12pm at the Jodhpur airport....which is part of the IAF base here.....as the ATR was moving down the runway, saw the beautiful sight of three SU-30 lined up on the taxiway waiting for our a/c to clear...and by the time our a/c reached the civilian terminal, saw the awesome sight of three MKIs taking off one after the another.....and the sound..sorry, make that ROAR of those engines......simply awesome.....eye watering momemt for a jingo!!!!!

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 14 Mar 2012 14:56

many years ago at jodhpur, i saw a brace of mig21's take off whilst we were in the circuit. dirty grey metal and part camo finish, looked like mean and hungry wolves, and the dirty finish immediately made them blend into the surrounds as they roared off at low level

i salute your rambha darshan!

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 14 Mar 2012 15:14

many moons ago, I had the good fortune of viewing four rambhas take off from lohegaon and do a some low level passes whilst maintaining the diamond formation. Absolute treat to the eyes and the soul wounded in kaarporate battles! That happy feeling & warmth spreading through the body is something to experienced can't be explained.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 14 Mar 2012 16:58

Lucky you Rohit miyan... Here in Bangalore we satisfy ourselves with the Jaguars, Texas and the occasional Rambha or Vajra..