India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

amit · Post by **amit** » 10 Mar 2012 10:15

Now the question which every "expert" here runs away from is this:
Japan closing all reactors. GOOD
Germany closing all reactors. GOOD

Then shouldn't India also close all its reactors?

Oh no I forgot the "expert" has certified that Indian PHWRs ate immune to earthquakes, tsumanis etc.

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 10 Mar 2012 10:40

amit wrote: Japan closing all reactors. GOOD
Germany closing all reactors. GOOD
Then shouldn't India also close all its reactors?

If all others seems to be eating shit, so shall we ?

Japan and Germany have capacity to generate power using other means.
India don't have it, rather we have very acute power shortage.

Our priority is to overcome power shortage,
The economic tsunami will cost much much more.

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 10 Mar 2012 10:54

Need some uplifting news under this topic- something new commissioned or developed i.e an accelerator, cyclotron, tokamak, radioisotope facility, laser, even computer or telescope!

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 10 Mar 2012 11:03

catholics, protestants spar over nuke power,

this is a news item on page eight of the TOI today.

The church of south India has openly contradicted the tamil nadu bishop council that centre was targeting christians for backing villagers opposed to the Kundankulam nuke power.

Couldn't find a link yet. Could some kind soul help out??

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 10 Mar 2012 11:23

^
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 203039.cms

Sanatanan · Post by **Sanatanan** » 10 Mar 2012 11:26

chetak wrote:catholics, protestants spar over nuke power,

this is a news item on page eight of the TOI today.

The church of south India has openly contradicted the tamil nadu bishop council that centre was targeting christians for backing villagers opposed to the Kundankulam nuke power.

Couldn't find a link yet. Could some kind soul help out??

May be you are referring to this article:
Church divided on govt action against N-stir

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 10 Mar 2012 11:29

Sanatanan wrote:
chetak wrote:catholics, protestants spar over nuke power,

this is a news item on page eight of the TOI today.

The church of south India has openly contradicted the tamil nadu bishop council that centre was targeting christians for backing villagers opposed to the Kundankulam nuke power.

Couldn't find a link yet. Could some kind soul help out??
May be you are referring to this article:
Church divided on govt action against N-stir

Thanks, Sirjee. Right on.

My version has a different heading heading.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Mar 2012 13:57

The CSI (Protestant conglomeration of churches) does not take its orders from foreign entities like the Catholics (Vatican) .On a visit to the area some time ago.this assertion-regarding source of foreign funds, was given to me by locals,that the Cathos recd. much more than the Proddies.Secondly,it is far easier for Catholic churches to conjure up crowds,as in the CSI,the crowds appear usually to protest against church irregularities being committed by the bishops,some of these I've posted earlier!

The accusation that the GOI is now against minorities (read Christians) is a diabolic lie.It completely exposes the true loyalties of the bishops engaged in the KKM protests and guiding hand of their foreign masters.Time to expose and deal with the nation's traitors.

PS:SOme detail;es of the foreign fundingof the CSI.Enter the Koreans!

Exit the Europeans, Enter the Koreans

The details of foreign contributions received by the CSI Synod during 2010 and 2011 published in the latest CSI Treasurer’s Report reveal some interesting trends. The Europeans, who have historically been major funders, have significantly cut down their assistance. The problem of rampant corruption among CSI leaders has become a key topic for discussion particularly among German donors (the CCC can claim some credit for this development). But the Koreans, who like most Asians take a more benign view of corruption, have more than compensated for this by stepping up their aid sharply. The table below summarises recent foreign flows to the Synod.

Major Donor 2010 2011

(Rs in Lakhs)

Assn of Churches & Missions in S.W. Germany 106.55 9.42

Presbyterian Church, South Korea 58.54 170.04

KORIND Coordination, South Korea 38.98 86.81

Mission Partners India, USA 36.31 36.38

USPG, UK 34.71 3.19

CWM, UK 13.17 11.35

Others 60.28 54.16

--------- ----------

Total 348.54 371.35

It is important to remember that the Rs 3.71 crore of foreign assistance that came in through the Synod in 2011 represents only some 10% of annual foreign financial assistance being received the by the CSI. Much of the balance comes directly to the dioceses with most dioceses receiving anywhere between Rs 1 crore to Rs 4 crore annually. Given the low standards of financial accountability within the CSI, this money tends to be a bonanza for corrupt bishops and their supporters.

The big shocker is the South Kerala Diocese which during 2010-11 received Rs 10 crore in foreign aid (see http://mha.nic.in/fcraweb/fc3_verify.as ... =2010-2011 ), with one donor Caruna Bal Vikas (the Indian arm of the American child-sponsorship based charity Compassion International) contributing nearly Rs 7 crore. The CCC showed the FCRA data of CBV’s funding of South Kerala Diocese to a former CEO of a child sponsorship charity in India and he agreed the pattern of disbursement raised suspicion about the real source and intent of these huge sums. The Ministry of Home Affairs would do well to investigate this and Compassion International’s Rs 100 crore annual fund deployment in India.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 10 Mar 2012 16:47

Amber G. wrote:
yes , that means abt 70% is unclean energy.
No, that is not what I meant.

Sure, but it means that only.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 10 Mar 2012 21:59

Amit,

Steven Chu is a smart man. No one called him an idiot except you. But he is being economical with the truth.

Lets keep in mind this is the same administration that did the following.

- Permanently shut down Yucca mountain.
- Put Jazcko in charge of the NRC.
- Shut down essentially all breeder technology research.
- Started all of 1 nuclear project in 4 years with debt subsidy of $8 Billion because the market won't touch the sector.

Keep in mind essentially all commercial American Nuclear reactors will be shut down by 2050 or so. All of 104 reactors. Or about 1 every 4 months. towards the end about 1 every month. Plants should be build at that pace to replace the fleet. Just replace mind you.

Chu knows all this. He also knows replacing the reactors+decommissioning will cost ~ $2 Trillion. Most of which the government will have to supply. This too is an impossibility. Even Forbes magazine has told him to get realistic. There was a poll recently that asked Americans if they would actively protest a Nuclear plant 50 mile from their house. 65% said they would actively campaign against it. How in heavens name is this going to be pulled off. IMO it comes from Obama who is chums with the Illinois nuclear industry. They have backed him to the hilt and it is now paying off. What can one say when Chu still advocates a truly unrealistic path. A true head scratcher. Or political gamesmanship.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 11 Mar 2012 17:36

Safety is at the core of Kudankulam nuclear reactors

amit · Post by **amit** » 12 Mar 2012 16:28

Theo_Fidel wrote:... A true head scratcher. Or political gamesmanship.

Theo,

I'm not too sure why you find comments like this one:

If we want to make a serious dent in carbon dioxide emissions -- not to mention having cleaner air and cleaner water -- then nuclear power has to be on the table.

A head scratcher.

I don't follow US nuclear politics too closely and frankly I'm not interested. But you should realise Steve Chu writing something in his own name, is very different from you or me writing on a forum using pseudo-names. He is staking his reputation with what he's writing so he has to have facts that back him up. And I think you'll also agree that he's quite well qualified to comment on the subject and that's not just because he's the energy sec.

There's nothing political in the above comment. Neither is there any in the follow two:

Also remember that wind and solar are intermittent energy sources. The sun isn't always shining, and the wind isn't always blowing. Without technological breakthroughs in efficient, large scale energy storage, it will be difficult to rely on intermittent renewables for much more than 20-30 percent of our electricity.

And:

But nuclear power can provide large amounts of carbon-free power that is always available.

Sorry all the venting here (not by you Theo, let hasten to add) cannot hide the simple logic of what Steve Chu is saying.

amit · Post by **amit** » 12 Mar 2012 16:48

sameer_shelavale wrote: If all others seems to be eating shit, so shall we ?

Japan and Germany have capacity to generate power using other means.
India don't have it, rather we have very acute power shortage.

Our priority is to overcome power shortage,
The economic tsunami will cost much much more.

Sameer,

Maybe you didn't notice but my comment was sarcastic in nature.

Even in the case of Japan and Germany, the leadership is wavering. Japan's PM is embarking on a public relations effort to get folks to agree to reopen the nuclear plants. I can well imagine the trauma of the Japanese after the tsunami. However, given the pragmatic nature of the people, I'll wager a 2 rupee bet that the closure of plants will be short-lived. The Japanese simply cannot afford to live with less energy or costiler energy. You have to understand that they have no coal or oil of their own.

Regarding Germany, there has already been a report, linked earlier on this thread, where they had to reopen one of the nuclear power plants during winter due to energy shortage. Germany has a stable economy and Eastern Europe and Russia at the moment are willing to supply cheap gas. However, this is not likely to last - in fact with Putin back I'd wager the Bear is going to make its move fast. I'd like to see if the Germans can live with less power during the winter months when it is cloudy with snow - a weather pattern not exactly conducive for solar power generation.

Coming to India, as you mentioned we have a massive power shortage. Let's hypothetically say Indian planners need to build a 1000 MW plant running at an average PLF of 80 per cent with minimum downtime to provide urgently needed power to TN and Kerala 24x7. Now would the planners look at solar or wind? I think not, because the technology is simply not there. Oh sure you'd probably be able to build a solar farm - the size of a small city (nevermind the cost) - or a string of smaller farms, to theoretically produce 1000 MW of power on sunny days. However, what about overnight electricity or during rainy days? Is the storage tech there yet to store such quantity of electricity? Nope, sorry you can't do it yet. You'll see in my previous post that even a Nobel Prize winning physicist also feels the same!

Of all renewable sources only hydel would probably be able to produce 1000 MW with the level of reliability required. But unless you plan to build a hydel project, in say the North-east and cart all the electricity to TN and Kerala (think transmission losses and cost) you can't think hydel.

So you are left with coal, gas and nuclear for the 1000 MW plant. Now which one are you going to choose - especially if you want to do something about the environment as well? Please discount the 0.00001% impact on emissions comment(s) that are going to follow my post, they add nothing to the discussion save for noise.

JMT

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Mar 2012 18:04

america has many options like coal and hydro. with their shrill posturing on "hypersafety first" even in simple stuff like toddlers diapers their society has been conditioned to protest about everything. getting clearances for a new runway takes 10+ yrs while interminable 'hearings' are held.

being a poor power deficit country where perhaps only lutyens delhi enjoys 365 days UPS, our people will take power and convenience over environmental green brownie points anyday.

amit · Post by **amit** » 12 Mar 2012 19:07

Singha,

Why do think it's an either/or situation?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 12 Mar 2012 20:19

Singha wrote: being a poor power deficit country where perhaps only lutyens delhi enjoys 365 days UPS, our people will take power and convenience over environmental green brownie points anyday.

No longer true Singha. People wont.

Its a different matter they probably wont have to make the choice if GoI does not push imported LWRs down their throat.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 12 Mar 2012 20:26

amit wrote: Sorry all the venting here (not by you Theo, let hasten to add) cannot hide the simple logic of what Steve Chu is saying.

Venting eh, the only thing that really vented was the reactor at Fuk-D

BTW for those setting up Chu as the next descent from Sinai whose word must be taken as gospel without application of self mind and common sense (not you Amit, I am talking of others, perhaps not even on the board) --

The issue is not Chu's credentials, it is that a political post holder makes a political speech should be looked politically first and then from other perspectives -- that said -- the Great US post holders (like Mullen, yada yada) have all been making a bunch of speeches going on the "credibility of the post" -- we all know how it turns out.

So yeah, just because US Energy Sec made a statement I wont fall all over myself going gaga -- particularly seeing how his statements are not borne out by the acts of his own government.

A post dated cheque on a failing bank anyone?

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 12 Mar 2012 23:20

America does not have any Hydro remaining other than pumped storage of which about 120,000 MW of capacity is in various stages of planning. 31,000 MW is in the construction process.

WRT America, people focus on the strength of the environmental opposition without having an equal focus on the overwhelming power of the development groups. If there was money to be made in Nuclear power the plants would get built. There is an entire eco-system of developers that devote their entire lives to overcoming this very sort of problem. The real problem with Nuclear esp. ‘New Nuclear’ is that it is simply cost uncompetitive. In America the real low cost producer is onshore Wind Energy. During this unrealistic Natural gas over production Gas is getting close to Wind energy. There was a chart in my local paper that 60% of all new electricity is coming from wind. And it is extraordinarily cheap long term stable price power.

There is another question WRT New Nuclear plants. Buildability. The French have run into real engineering challenges in both their Finland and Flamenville plants. It appears the most ‘Safe’ plants have some serious design challenges. Esp. WRT to ‘New Nuclear’ design quality and margins of error. One of the ways in which the safety margins have been improved is by dramatically increasing the mandatory construction tolerances and material quality required. I have been reading through some of my colleague’s construction notes from Areva and it makes for interesting reading. In particular the welding standards required have proven impossible to achieve. The solution apparently was to lower standards and compensate by increasing margins elsewhere. This not necessarily bad but gives one some insight into what is going on. And this is just the easily inspected items.

In India of course even the construction quality is a state secret. The only time we hear of problems is when things like the Kaiga dome collapses. And then the entire thing is brushed under the carpet.

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 13 Mar 2012 03:15

Theo,

Maybe we should ask you a straight question: do you believe we should stop our nuclear weapons program/ subject it to NGO/environmentalist scrutiny ? That too at a time when our strategic adversaries are ramping up nuke arsenals ?

Maybe you will say that we should get used to the fact that conventional weapons should be our only weapons of defense...The real agenda of the anti-nuclear group will be clear only when they are forced to answer this question.

amit · Post by **amit** » 13 Mar 2012 13:56

Sanku wrote:The issue is not Chu's credentials, it is that a political post holder makes a political speech should be looked politically first and then from other perspectives -- that said -- the Great US post holders (like Mullen, yada yada) have all been making a bunch of speeches going on the "credibility of the post" -- we all know how it turns out.

So yeah, just because US Energy Sec made a statement I wont fall all over myself going gaga -- particularly seeing how his statements are not borne out by the acts of his own government.

Nice contradiction.

First Chu's comments are branded as a political speech - despite the fact that he himself is not a politician but a technocrat. Then it is claimed that his own government is not following the steps he outlined. If the govt does not believe and follow what it's own Energy Sec is saying, then how can Chu's statement be "political in nature"? **

Is it being implied that he has his own "political agenda"?

** As far as I know the legal definition of "political speech" is something like this: Expressions which comment on government action rather than the private conduct of an individual.

amit · Post by **amit** » 13 Mar 2012 14:04

ramdas wrote:Theo,

Maybe we should ask you a straight question: do you believe we should stop our nuclear weapons program/ subject it to NGO/environmentalist scrutiny ? That too at a time when our strategic adversaries are ramping up nuke arsenals ?

Maybe you will say that we should get used to the fact that conventional weapons should be our only weapons of defense...The real agenda of the anti-nuclear group will be clear only when they are forced to answer this question.

Ramdas,

If you recall - I think you participated in that debate - this same question was asked to several BRFites during one of the debates we had before. I remember some folks did outline a vision which actually scared me more than the normal venting from the anti nuclear crowd.

They wanted India's nuclear program to be a mirror image of what Pakistan and North Korea have today. That is a bombs driven nuclear program with a few reactors thrown in as adjuncts to produce maal for the bombs. Apart from the absurdity of imagining such a downsizing scenario, particularly given the wealth of experience and expertise gained over the past 60 years, what scared me was that these good fellas were perfectly happy to have India descend to the level of Pakistan in the nuclear field and in effect give China an open field in terms of nuclear commerce and knowhow.

Truly boggles the mind.

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 13 Mar 2012 14:28

Amit,

I agree with your point. But there is another point I want to make.

Most of those who recommend that the program be scaled down to a solely military program with a couple of civilian reactors thrown in are not aware that they are "playing with fire". Once you give Udayakumar and his rent boys legitimacy on the issue of civilian nuclear power, they will attack the military program as well.

It appears that the fear of nuclear power is like fear of the ghost: those who cling to these fears cling to them no matter what. Further, those who insist on stoking these fears often have a vested interest in doing so. Very few of these elements are likely to be amenable to reasoning in terms of national interest.

The way forward is to push ahead with all aspects, civilian as well as military of our nuclear program. If paid protestors attempt physical obstruction of these programs, the state must take appropriate countermeasures. Firmness in dealing with this issue is the need of the hour.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 13 Mar 2012 14:29

amit wrote: Nice contradiction.

No contradiction what so ever, here let me help you understand

First Chu's comments are branded as a political speech - despite the fact that he himself is not a politician but a technocrat.

Not branded a political speech, it is a political speech, a technocract in service of a govt outlining policy makes a statement that is primarily political.

That is how things are. He is not teaching a class room in Nalanda. He is talking on behalf of Obama admin.

Then it is claimed that his own government is not following the step he outlined. If the govt does not believe and follow what it's own Energy Sec is saying, then how can Chu's statement be "political in nature"? **

No buddy, fundamental mistake to assume that a political speech would mean that actions and statements are in alignment, he is not Dharmraja Yuduisthir we are talking of, this is a functionary of duplee-city (refer BRF dic) .

In fact because WE KNOW that the actions and statements are 180* aligned.

that his speech his political rhetoric.

Is it being implied that he has his own "political agenda"?

No yaar, he is implementing Obama's agenda. Om baba has always been big on statements saying one thing while doing something else (or better still not doing anything at all)

Come to think of it, a lot like Man mohan really.

** As far as I know the legal definition of "political speech" is something like this: Expressions which comment on government action rather than the private conduct of an individual.

Legal definition eh, are you planning to sue me? Why not use a common sense definition eh? Here you go:

"A statement about ostensible conduct of a govt while the govt in reality does something else?"

amit · Post by **amit** » 13 Mar 2012 14:31

One thing I find interesting is that the nuclear debate has been deftly turned into a nuclear vs solar and other renewables. I firmly believe that's bumpkin. Solar, wind and other renewables (with the exception of hydel) are still years - if not decades - away from being in the same league as nuclear in terms of cost, generation capacity and availability with high PLF.

IMO opinion I think a better comparison is between nuclear and coal + gas. Or maybe nuclear + renewables vs coal + gas + efficient coal (using tech like carbon capture).

Regarding coal I know that we have a dangerous dependency on it and that dependency is going to stay for quite a while longer. But at the same time, despite having one of the world largest coal deposits, coal supply is not a piece of cake.

Today's IE has a very interesting report:

Power crisis: 60,000-MW plans run on empty

At least five states have declared power holidays and another eight have load-shedding plans lined up. An all-pervasive fuel shortage threatens to derail upcoming projects and has already spooked private sector project developers and investors.

An estimated 12,000 MW of existing capacity and 48,000 MW (fresh capacity) face the prospect of running on empty.

Each ended with broadly the same conclusion — that while a long-term solution to the power sector mess needs to be found, the villain of the piece for now is Coal India. The state-owned miner has been singled out for some harsh treatment, primarily on the charge that the virtually stagnant coal output over the last couple of years has precipitated the impending fuel crisis.

The biggest worry is fuel shortage that’s worsening by the day and threatens to derail the new-found enthusiasm among private developers to set up generation projects. The key reason is that Coal India Ltd (CIL) has simply not been digging fast enough to meet burgeoning demand. Result: over the last three years, an estimated 12,000 MW of coal-fired capacity, most of it in the state and private sectors, has come up without bankable fuel supply assurances. And another 48,000 MW of fresh capacity slated to come up over the next three years (till March 2015) faces an uncertain future in the wake of shaky coal supplies.

The move, according to the PMO, would provide fuel supply certainty to projects totalling 50,000 MW in cumulative thermal capacity. But power companies say that they are not getting their quota of supplies and even that which comes is of indifferent quality. {Remember Indian coal has a very high ash content, which is why Indonesian and Australian coal is always preferred}

At last count, as of March 5, 10 of the country’s key power stations running on domestic coal were grappling to maintain normal operations with a day’s coal or less, and over a third of the 89 major coal-fired stations were straddled with critical fuel stocks of less than a week. And it’s not even summer yet.

Analysts believe that even if pushed to the limit, CIL will not be able to meet fresh supply commitments. A former Union power secretary, who is now working with the industry, said that to meet future demand, CIL will have to ramp up output by at least 6 per cent annually over the next five to seven years, up from the current 3 per cent growth — which is “next to impossible”.

There's another point to consider, pity the article did not dwell on that. Even supposing that CIL were to somehow meet the targets and bring out more coal from the ground. Now the question to ask is, does the Indian Railways have the capacity, in terms of rakes and traffic routing, to deliver the coal?

While domestic coal production is undoubtedly in a mess, the issue of running power plants on imported coal, the only fallback option, is proving to be an entirely different challenge altogether, as is being experienced by two of the country’s largest projects coming up in the country’s western outpost, Mundra in Gujarat’s Kutch region.

This is the first part of the article. It would be interesting to read the subsequent parts.

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 13 Mar 2012 14:32

I would also like to raise another point: those who are pushing for replacing nuclear energy by renewables are also pushing the commercial interests of countries like Germany that have invested a lot into research in these areas.

India is on the verge of getting a technological lead in areas related to nuclear energy. The overall worldwide growth of the (civilian) nuclear industry will eventually provide a huge monetary opportunity for India. NGOs must not be allowed to scuttle these national opportunities....

amit · Post by **amit** » 13 Mar 2012 14:42

Sanku wrote:Legal definition eh, are you planning to sue me? Why not use a common sense definition eh? Here you go:

"A statement about ostensible conduct of a govt while the govt in reality does something else?"

Sanku,

I have far better things to do than waste my time to take legal action against you.

BTW the definition which I gave can be found here, it wasn't something that I conjured out of my musharaff on the spur of the moment.

You should understand, what may seem common sense to you could mean something totally different in real life.

At the end of the day any speech becomes "political" if it explains the govts intention or plans. So if you call Chu's comments (which I personally think were made more from a scientific perspective than anything else) "political" then it must either reflect the intentions or plans of the govt he represents.

In that case how can you say that the govt is not following what Chu is saying in his "political speech"? If the govt is not following the contours of his speech, the Chu's speech can be many things, but "political speech" it is not.

As I said in that case the only explanation could be that he himself has a "political agenda" which is different from the govt's intentions and plans.

Are you saying that? (You could call him a marketeer for the nasty US nooklear industry, you know. Then guys like me and few others here would be august company!)

amit · Post by **amit** » 13 Mar 2012 14:44

ramdas wrote:Amit,

I agree with your point. But there is another point I want to make.

Most of those who recommend that the program be scaled down to a solely military program with a couple of civilian reactors thrown in are not aware that they are "playing with fire". Once you give Udayakumar and his rent boys legitimacy on the issue of civilian nuclear power, they will attack the military program as well.

It appears that the fear of nuclear power is like fear of the ghost: those who cling to these fears cling to them no matter what. Further, those who insist on stoking these fears often have a vested interest in doing so. Very few of these elements are likely to be amenable to reasoning in terms of national interest.

The way forward is to push ahead with all aspects, civilian as well as military of our nuclear program. If paid protestors attempt physical obstruction of these programs, the state must take appropriate countermeasures. Firmness in dealing with this issue is the need of the hour.

Agree with you on this (and your second post) 100 per cent.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 13 Mar 2012 17:02

ramdas wrote: Once you give Udayakumar and his rent boys legitimacy on the issue of civilian nuclear power, they will attack the military program as well.

It appears that the fear of nuclear power is like fear of the ghost:

On the contrary, given the "idhar udhar girna" by Man mohan and his cohorts, the people who are really afraid are those who were pushing imports under the guise of "good for people".

Apparently "people" have other ideas than those speaking on their behalf. Wonder wonder.

Two innocent people protesting peacefully have already been killed in Jaitapur by those working hard to make their lives better.

War is peace, Slavery is freedom etc etc.

======================

Anyway the issues against Nuclear power has gained traction ONLY after 123 and the related damage to Indian nuclear establishment.

It must be remembered, till all the reactors were in strategic space, and it primarily was run as GoI function for public good no one was protesting.

No it appears like GoI running a commercial operation on behalf of external agencies at the cost of Indian public, sorry boss, "cholbe na". It didnt work for Maya in UP wont work for Man mohan in rest of the country.

Once the blatantly commerical motives come in, it is difficult to tell any one that "it is for greater good"

Greater good sure, but whose greater good? Areva's? Westinghouse? Man mohan's pals in the US embassy who are shown chest full of notes before voting in parliament?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 13 Mar 2012 17:13

amit wrote:
Sanku wrote:Legal definition eh, are you planning to sue me? Why not use a common sense definition eh? Here you go:

"A statement about ostensible conduct of a govt while the govt in reality does something else?"

Sanku,

I have far better things to do than waste my time to take legal action against you.

Hmm, you are right you will be wasting your time. But then you appear to have a lot of it to waste. Anyway I assume you are done with legal definitions then?

You should understand, what may seem common sense to you could mean something totally different in real life.

I am aware that not all people are able to understand reality, so yes, my common sense is indeed quite uncommon for others, true.

At the end of the day any speech becomes "political" if it explains the govts intention or plans.

A projection on US energy mix by Energy Sec was Chu's household plan was it?

So if you call Chu's comments (which I personally think were made more from a scientific perspective than anything else) "political" then it must either reflect the intentions or plans of the govt he represents.

So you finally agree that Chu was talking about energy mix with absolutely no correlation with US govt policies and that why its not political? And for something to be political it has to be 100% reflection of Govts actions?

By any chance would in your world the definition of "scientific" be
"pulling something out of your Musharraf and claiming that claiming its true"

Something like the "SCIENTISTS" who proclaimed that Fuk-D situation was trivial when the core had already melted down?

That approach to science seems to be quite popular these days. I personally call it politics.

Different world different choices.

In that case how can you say that the govt is not following what Chu is saying in his "political speech"? If the govt is not following the contours of his speech, the Chu's speech can be many things, but "political speech" it is not.

Let me say it again and slowly

"IT IS A POLITICAL SPEECH BECAUSE IT ATTEMPTS TO CREATE A PERCEPTION WITHOUT CHANGING REALITY"

If you think that all that the Politicos say is true, please give me your account number to deposit 100,000 $ in.

As I said in that case the only explanation could be that he himself has a "political agenda" which is different from the govt's intentions and plans.

No Obama is using an appartichk to fool people and clearly succeeding with many

Are you saying that? (You could call him a marketeer for the nasty US nooklear industry, you know. Then guys like me and few others here would be august company!)

A refreshing honesty for a change.

amit · Post by **amit** » 13 Mar 2012 17:36

But then you appear to have a lot of it to waste.

Sanku,

Nice try again at personal insults in order to get me to retaliate so as to get moderator intervention.

As regards to who has more time, the left-hand column says it all. You joined as full member on Aug 23, 2007 and I joined on Aug 30, 2007. Your post count is 8110 and mine is 3193.

Thank God you don't have as much time to waste as me! Phew!

amit · Post by **amit** » 13 Mar 2012 17:43

Sanku wrote:Apparently "people" have other ideas than those speaking on their behalf. Wonder wonder.

Yes people like Udayakumar, Vandana Shiva, who also, like you has a special liking for Man Mohan. And we should not forget their many (closet) admirers on this board who never tire to project them as representatives of "people".

Two innocent people protesting peacefully have already been killed in Jaitapur by those working hard to make their lives better.

Two innocent people were killed because of Shiv Sena goonda giri. A far bigger and more organised protest at KNPP has been peaceful so far, every wondered why?

NEW DELHI: A man was killed in police firing in Jaitapur, as protests against the proposed nuclear plant turned violent with agitators setting ablaze a police station.

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Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 13 Mar 2012 20:01

amit wrote:
Sanku wrote:Apparently "people" have other ideas than those speaking on their behalf. Wonder wonder.
Yes people like Udayakumar, Vandana Shiva, who also, like you has a special liking for Man Mohan. And we should not forget their many (closet) admirers on this board who never tire to project them as representatives of "people".

Well Sir, according to you, some one who does not do a saashtanga pranam when Man mohan rolls by == vandana shiva. What can I say only expect that you may learn to distinguish fine grain differences in future.

It will help you, I promise.

In any case just another case of name calling, when shown that "facts" are either wrong or laughable or both.

Two innocent people protesting peacefully have already been killed in Jaitapur by those working hard to make their lives better.
Two innocent people were killed because of Shiv Sena goonda giri. A far bigger and more organised protest at KNPP has been peaceful so far, every wondered why?

Because there is no congress govt in TN to beat up innocents and fire on them like in Delhi and Maharashtra?

Meanwhile calling names to people who get in your way (like calling protests by Shiv Sena as goonda gardi) -- is a very typical method followed by a set of power drunk people in Delhi. It is not a good idea to bring that method to BRF though.

I would advise a bit of restraint.

amit · Post by **amit** » 13 Mar 2012 20:18

Where is the Dhoti Quake icon when you need it the most?

But it's good to see that "innocent" protesters can set a police station on fire and still be admired ny some on BRF. Says a lot about their politics.

Any choro no more expenditure of bandwidth. Never really was good at mud wrestling.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 13 Mar 2012 20:30

amit wrote: But it's good to see that "innocent" protesters can set a police station on fire and still be admired ny some on BRF. Says a lot about their politics.

Well not everyone takes being fired on very sanguinely, you know. "Oh police fired on me for protesting, let me now write a thank you note to Congress"

Any choro no more expenditure of bandwidth. Never really was good at mud wrestling.

Sniping away at others wont change the fundamentals -- that 90% of so called data points are mud. If you bring mud to a discussion, what can anyone do but wrestle in it.

Wake me up after we have meaningful data.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 13 Mar 2012 21:46

http://www.hindu.com/2011/04/19/stories ... 620100.htm

"Two separate incidents happened during the day,” Mr. Gaikwad said. “In the morning, more than 200 protesters under the leadership of Mr. Rajan Salvi created disturbance at the site of the project. They threw stones and set the grass there on fire.”

He said the Shiv Sena had launched a campaign to stop the construction work. “They tried to create a volatile situation in the morning. The police resorted to lathi-charge after some policemen were injured. The Deputy Superintendent of Police suffered a severe head injury. He had to undergo 23 stitches. A few protesters were also injured in the lathi-charge.”

He said there was another protest 10 km away from the project site in the afternoon, when around 700 to 800 local fishermen marched to the Nate police station and pelted it with stones for nearly two hours.

“They burnt materials and destroyed the property of the station,” Mr. Gaikwad said. “The police resorted to lathi-charge. When they did not disperse, they used plastic bullets. When the crowd did not budge, police opened fire. One protester, who was injured in the firing, died. Fifty policemen were injured in the stone-pelting. The situation is now peaceful and under control.”

The Assembly was adjourned for the day after the Opposition insisted that Home Minister R.R. Patil make a detailed statement.

Mr. Patil confirmed that one person, Tabrez Sayekar, was killed in the firing against a mob of 600 which attacked the police station.

A report on the Jaitapur protests.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 13 Mar 2012 22:04

Kudankulam: Agents of hostile foreign interests –

March 12, 2012 by IS
“The French behind the Kudankulam agitation had harnessed other European interests determined to keep India in a low-energy trap in their plan of sabotaging the commissioning of the completed Kudankulam reactor. Now that China had become such a headache to the European Union by competing with the alliance across a range of manufactures, the intention was to hobble India, so that the other billion-people country in Asia did not emerge as a serious challenger to the EU, especially in the matter of services.” – Prof. M.D. Nalapat
On November 6, 2011, Delhi’s “Sunday Guardian” had carried a column about the way work on the Kudankulam nuclear plant in Tamil Nadu was being sabotaged by clusters of foreigners acting through their Indian dupes. Huge amounts of cash were getting funneled into the locations where the manufactured protests were taking place, all with the intention of seeing that Russia was not given a contract for the setting up of two more reactors at the site. Both French as well as US commercial interests were united in wanting to keep Russia away from the lucrative Indian market for nuclear reactors. They were apprehensive that if a further $9 billion were committed towards purchase of two new reactors at Kudankulam (Stage III and Stage IV), there would be no money left to buy (more expensive) French or US equipment. Besides, both countries were holding back on expanding nuclear cooperation with India, intending to use the developing country’s need for nuclear energy as a lever to force it to abandon its indigenous nuclear program. In particular, the Obama administration has been relentless in its view that advanced nuclear technology belongs only to “civilised” countries, and that India ought to desist from seeking self-sufficiency in the same. As for Nicholas Sarkozy, he has adopted the policy of Tony Blair, abandoning the independent foreign policy of Charles De Gaulle and Jacques Chirac in favour of being a poodle of the US administration. These days, Paris follows the cues tossed to it by Washington, including in the matter of nuclear commerce with India.

The French behind the Kudankulam agitation had harnessed other European interests determined to keep India in a low-energy trap in their plan of sabotaging the commissioning of the completed Kudankulam reactor. Now that China had become such a headache to the European Union by competing with the alliance across a range of manufactures, the intention was to hobble India, so that the other billion-people country in Asia did not emerge as a serious challenger to the EU, especially in the matter of services. Contacts in institutions such as the Reserve Bank, the Home Ministry and the Finance Ministry were used to plant the seeds of policies designed to slow down economic growth. The RBI began a suicidal policy of rate increases in 2006,exactly when Indian corporates were scaring their European competitors by buying up huge entities such as Corus Steel, Arcelor and Land Rover. The Home Ministry began raising objections to capital flow from East Asia and West Asia, thereby blocking those in either location who wanted to shift their investments away from Europe into India. Because of the Home Ministry policies, funds that ought to have come to India either stayed within Europe or left for China. Brazil and other markets. The Finance Ministry put out a welcome mat for exactly the same US and EU financial conglomerates that were responsible for the theft of $4 trillion of investor funds during 2007-09. It helped that several of these entities made sure to employ the relatives of key policymakers in India, giving them huge salaries for little work besides whispering in the ears of their policymaker relatives ways in which policies could get tweaked to favour the financial depredators and speculators who have collectively ruined the international economy.

Even a brief visit to Kudankulam three months ago – or six months after the agitation began that shut down the plant and caused losses of more than $2 million a day in lost power and interest cost – would have been enough to reveal the numerous foreigners who were wandering amongst the agitators, encouraging them with money and advice. However, the Intelligence Bureau was asleep, not because its field operatives were unaware of the situation, but because several of the NGOs involved are reported to have contacts with the higher levels of the Congress Party. It is a known fact that Congress President Sonia Gandhi and her son and political heir Rahul have dealt with those involved in several NGOs, including many from abroad, in the process giving them access to agencies of the central government, which of course the Sonia branch of the Nehru family controls. Such privileged access by certain NGOs has led to their being very influential in policy, especially with ministers eager to be close to Rahul Gandhi. Another fact is the way in which these foreign vested interests have persuaded elements of the Christian church to support them. France and Germany being countries with strong Catholic traditions, and the Northern European countries having powerful Protestant links (especially in Denmark), it was easy for nationals of these countries to persuade innocent church groups in the vicinity of the Kudankulam nuclear project to join them in blocking off access to the plant.

However, so powerful were the NGOs involved that nothing was done against them till last week, when Prime Minister Manmohan Singh publicly pointed to them as being responsible for the stoppage of India’s largest nuclear power project. By his open admission, the PM has shown great courage, for he must be well aware of the links between the NGOs and the higher levels of his own Congress Party, links that are ensuring that other ministers – such as Home Minister P Chidambaram, HRD Minister Kapil Sibal and Environment Minister J Natarajan keep silent on the issue, although the first and third are from Tamil Nadu, the state where Kudankulam is located. The powerful linkages of the NGOs will ensure that the guilty escape, as the Home Ministry will not have the courage to prosecute foreigners close to influential politicians. These days, the Home Ministry functions more as an instrument for the protection of the ruling party and its top leadership than it does in its legal role of defender of law and order and national security, so much has it been compromised by politics The NGOs involved in the Kudankulam agitation are joined by others active across India in shutting down projects. A country that has one of the largest deposits of coal in the world is forced to import huge amounts each year, because agitators have blocked output at coalsites. Of course, conveniently for them, coal is a nationalized resource in India, which makes it easy for NGOs with political backing to force the shutdown of state-owned collieries. A similar situation prevails with regard to uranium. Mining has slowed to a trickle because of (well-funded) agitations that have blocked access to uranium mines. The Manmohan Singh government is as helpless to prevent this as it is to stop a handful of NGOs from blocking the flow of power to Tamil Nadu, a state with a growing energy deficit. Apart from a few token actions, the government has done nothing to restart work at Kudankulam or any of the other sites where internationally-inspired protests have led to stoppages. Even in the case of Kudankulam, the NGOs concerned are so influential that media coverage has been overwhelmingly hostile to the government and friendly to the protestors. Television channels in particular have been very critical of the PM, where they ought to congratulate Manmohan Singh on speaking the truth after so long

The use of NGOs to create problems in developing countries is not unique to India. In Egypt, authorities there are under strong pressure from the US and the EU to let go certain NGOs who have been fomenting trouble in that country. Since 9/11 provided a convenient excuse for entering into military and intelligence operations across the globe (99% of which have nothing to do with Al Qaeda), NATO has in effect enforced a policy of Zero Accountability for itself. Citizens of NATO countries regard themselves as immune to local laws, as can be seen by the efforts of the Italian authorities to free two NATO navy personnel who are reported to have shot dead two Indian fishermen a couple of weeks ago. Whether in Afghanistan or in Libya or in Iraq, the tens of thousands killed by NATO military action go unmourned, and the military personnel responsible remain unpunished. The UN Human Rights chief, Navi Pillay, has been perfectly house-trained by NATO. She obligingly ignores the many deaths caused by NATO and concentrates only on targets suggested to her by the alliance. Indeed, the entire UN “human rights” and “international crimes” setup has been perfectly house-trained by NATO, ignoring the numerous human rights violations by the alliance, thereby reducing it to a farce.

Every human being is the equal of any other. This is the command of Almighty. Hence an international system that gives immunity to a particular set of people to do what they like against others (of course, for the noblest stated motives) is wrong. India has a right to high technology, and those countries that seek to sabotage this quest are wrong. Those entities that stop projects from going forward that can reduce the abject poverty of hundreds of millions in the country are wrong. Unfortunately, those that seek to ensure that India will never replicate the Chinese example of being an economic challenger to the NATO powers are so powerful that Kudankulam and dozens of other big projects continue to be stalled, despite the Prime Minister’s warning to the nation about the vested interests behind such sabotage. – Pakistan Observer, Islamabad,

» Prof. Nalapat is Vice-Chair, Manipal Advanced Research Group, UNESCO Peace Chair & Professor of Geopolitics, Manipal University, Haryana State, India.

nawabs · Post by **nawabs** » 13 Mar 2012 22:43

Commission Kudankulam project: Karunanidhi

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/che ... 985413.ece

Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam president M. Karunanidhi on Sunday urged the Central and State governments to make efforts for immediate commissioning of the Kudankulam Nuclear Power Plants (KKNPP).

Pointing to reports in certain sections of the media that the failure to inaugurate the plant had caused Rs 900-crore loss to the government in the last six months, the DMK leader, in a statement, said that though the AIADMK secured votes by promising uninterrupted power supply to domestic consumption and industrial and agricultural purposes, it had done nothing to ensure the early commissioning of the KKNPP.

Instead, it had shifted the blame on the Centre and shirked its responsibility by writing letters to Prime Minister.

Mr Karunanidhi said Chief Minister Jayalalithaa, while in the Opposition, was highly critical of the DMK government and she used very strong words when there was a power cut.

“But, now, the State has plunged into darkness and people have realised that all sections have been affected by power crisis,” he said.

Pointing out that the State government had not explained its position on the project and the protests against it, Mr Karunanidhi said the Chief Minister, on the one hand, had held talks with the protesters and, on the other, there was no word on the experts' committee report that had been submitted to her.

nawabs · Post by **nawabs** » 13 Mar 2012 23:24

Indian law on foreign funds to NGOs worries UN body

http://www.firstpost.com/india/indian-l ... 42888.html

In what is perhaps the first international reaction to the Indian government’s heightened scrutiny of NGOs receiving foreign funds, the United Nations Special Rapporteur Margaret Sekaggya has in a report presented at the ongoing session of the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva expressed concern about the new regime introduced by Foreign Contribution Regulation Act (FCRA), 2010.

The more stringent FCRA, 2010, which replaced the FCRA of 1976, came into force on 1 May 2011.

In her report (presented on 5 March) on the situation of human rights defenders in India, Sekaggya has observed that some of the provisions of the new Act “may lead to abuse by the authorities when reviewing applications of organisations which were critical of authorities”.The statement by the Special Rapporteur gains significance, coming at a time when the Home Ministry has been turning up the heat on foreign-funded NGOs and the Prime Minister himself only a few weeks ago pointed fingers at US-based NGOs for fuelling the anti-nuclear protests at Kudankulam in Tamil Nadu.

Incidentally, among those who spoke at the session after the Special Rapporteur presented her report, was Henri Tiphagne, executive director of People’s Watch, a Madurai-based human rights organisation, which was sent a notice by the FCRA wing of the Home Ministry in early February.

In his oral statement at the UN, Tiphagne raised the issue of government action on NGOs in Tamil Nadu.

“In recent weeks, NGOs in Tamil Nadu have been targeted on allegations of opposing the Kudankulam nuclear power plant, presenting an example of abuse of this law with any due process adhered to.” Read full statement here.

Tiphagne, just back from Geneva and on a short visit to Delhi, spoke to Firstpost about the significance of the UN Special Rapporteur’s statement.

“The effort here is to see that procedures that are put in place for the scrutiny of NGOs are transparent and accountable. It is not to say that government should not use FCRA. After all, when we are asking for accountability from the government, from the corporates, accountability of NGOs is also welcome.

“But take the example of the recent notices from the Home Ministry to NGOs in Tamil Nadu. They make no mention of Kudankulam, of diverting funds, of fuelling protests. By simply citing ‘prejudicially affecting public interest’, you are stopping funding. This amounts to gagging. The government has to show cause that the NGO is diverting funds or that answers provided by the NGOs are not satisfactory.”

Tiphagne, an advocate, says that the FCRA has in the past been an Act that has not been properly implemented.

“That is the government’s own fault. Now, this legislation which is supposed to improve standards of accounting is being used to clamp down on NGOs that are expressing dissent. And the government is trying to link that dissent with organisations that are receiving foreign funds. You are doing complete injustice to the poor with this of justification. To thwart dissent by saying it is being fuelled by another country is the wrong approach.”

The government in its response to the Special Rapporteur’s report, while conceding that some of the provisions of the public security laws and the FCR Act “may be abused by authorities involved, in the execution of such laws”, has given assurance that “we are conscious of the need to ensure accountability of the law enforcement officials and have taken due note of her concerns”.

The Special Rapporteur visited India in January last year, during which she met over 350 human rights groups, top bureaucrats and police officers, members of the human rights commissions, judges from the Delhi High Court, members of the diplomatic community and members of the UN agencies in Delhi, Bhubaneshwar, Kolkata, Guwahati, Ahmedabad, Delhi, Jammu and Srinagar.

amit · Post by **amit** » 14 Mar 2012 09:20

svenkat wrote:http://www.hindu.com/2011/04/19/stories ... 620100.htm

"Two separate incidents happened during the day,” Mr. Gaikwad said. “In the morning, more than 200 protesters under the leadership of Mr. Rajan Salvi created disturbance at the site of the project. They threw stones and set the grass there on fire.”

He said the Shiv Sena had launched a campaign to stop the construction work. “They tried to create a volatile situation in the morning. The police resorted to lathi-charge after some policemen were injured. The Deputy Superintendent of Police suffered a severe head injury. He had to undergo 23 stitches. A few protesters were also injured in the lathi-charge.”

He said there was another protest 10 km away from the project site in the afternoon, when around 700 to 800 local fishermen marched to the Nate police station and pelted it with stones for nearly two hours.

“They burnt materials and destroyed the property of the station,” Mr. Gaikwad said. “The police resorted to lathi-charge. When they did not disperse, they used plastic bullets. When the crowd did not budge, police opened fire. One protester, who was injured in the firing, died. Fifty policemen were injured in the stone-pelting. The situation is now peaceful and under control.”

The Assembly was adjourned for the day after the Opposition insisted that Home Minister R.R. Patil make a detailed statement.

Mr. Patil confirmed that one person, Tabrez Sayekar, was killed in the firing against a mob of 600 which attacked the police station.

A report on the Jaitapur protests.

Boss thanks for posting this. A nice reminder of the definition of a "peaceful protest". I hope the Deputy Superintendent of Police who suffered 23 stitches on his head was made to apologies to the lumpen err I mean "peaceful protestors".

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 14 Mar 2012 09:27

The person killed was a certain tabrez ,nothing to do with shiv shena protests.