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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2012 09:43 
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Deccan Mujahideen ID cards? RSS ID cards. You guys are behind times. Nowadays it is UID Adhaar biometric identity cards faked so that the actual fingerprints and iris image is of Yuvaraj (not Singh)

But I digress.

I am no arms expert. Only an armchair martial artist. But it occurs to me that if you give any man a firearm everyone around who cannot take cover behind bulletproof shelter (tree/wall) is in some danger depending on the weapon the man has and the amount of ammunition he is carrying.

If he has a pistol, anyone beyond 50 meters relatively safe although one could die even 100 meters away. But at 200 meters the danger is small. With a submachine gun, the danger radius is within about 200 meters. For a Kalashnikov/INSAS - I guess it is about 500 meters. For a Ishapore/FN or 303 the danger zone would be 800 plus meters.

Most urban environments offer walls and protection within 50 meters, and that protection works for terrorist and policeman so the actual weapon range is less significant. But weapon accuracy and the ability to fire it/hold it in a confined space becomes important for anyone who wants to get close and closer to a hiding terrorist and the cover available is smaller and smaller.

However when one works in a team, you equip 25 men with INSAS/Kalashnikov and keep them at vantage points 200-300 meters away taking cover and providing continuous fire to make the terrorist keep his head down (assuming you know where he is) while other commandos move closer with smaller and more compact weapons till they too can take him out with a grenade.

Once again I recall a question asked on BRF a decade ago by someone who mockingly asked why 50 army men were involved in a hunt that took out 2 terrorists. I recall having been greatly upset by the sheer stupidity of the question. A 500 meter radius around one Kalashnikov armed terrorist translates to a 3 km circle where anyone can get killed. But a 3 km circle with men 100 meters apart still requires 31 men with INSAS/ Kalashnikov. And 3 teams of 3 men moving forward on a hideout shows why you need lot of men to take out just one man with a Kalashnikov. In a forest you can't use mortar. But RPG may be OK in line of sight. In the city - RPG into a window may be OK. Most good dead Pakis that i see in photos have burn/singe marks and the hideout houses are invariably demolished, but surrounding houses intact.


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2012 09:53 
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a long time ago(decade+), one of my friends who worked in pioneer or asian age then actually took out a driving license in delhi with his own name but the passport photo of the then vice President of India. the article was published in his paper and the owner gave him a cash award. I am sure things have improved since then but one never knows.
http://articles.latimes.com/1995-06-12/ ... d-document
India, after all, is where Somnath Batabyal, an undercover reporter for the Pioneer newspaper, was able to get a driver's license last month in the name of the country's vice president, Kocheril Raman Narayanan, complete with his official residential address, by paying $55 to an agent who knew crooked functionaries at the State Transport Authority.

To pass the driving test, all the journalist had to do was sit in a car while an inspector drove it a few inches.


I am sure SF units can handle any weapon appropriately, but its also true that its the local cops in urban megacities who make 1st contact in any incident and likely to sustain the initial heavy casualties trying to run the hit team to ground or save people. granted you cannot train the local cops to the time x expense of a SF unit/NSG but if we give them a suitable weapon thats easier to handle in the confined spaces of indic cities and their vehicles it might be better than this:
http://blogs.reuters.com/india/files/2008/11/terror.jpg

that gun is powerful enough to probably kill 4 people in a row if fired at close range. and too long to manouver in cqb inside a house for instance.

these people risk their lives routinely in odd places. giving them right tools in my mind is as important as the next super GMTI/SAR soln for rafale target picking.


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2012 10:39 
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Whats the drum fed LMG b/w 3:00 to 4:00?

sum wrote:
X-post :
Nick_S wrote:
Marcos video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Euv8VNN ... r_embedded

The video is titled incorrectly on youtube.

Lots of amazing footage of the MARCOs and its training.

Marcos East in the vid = Vizag unit?


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2012 10:52 
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marcos east could be in port blair or elsewhere in A&N..thats their playground

the LMG looks like M249 SAW used in khan forces.


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2012 11:43 
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The gun is probably a IMI Negev. I remember seeing a pic of an Indian soldier (don't remember if he was from MARCOS or PARAs) firing a negev long time back. I'm unable to locate that pic anywhere now.


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2012 11:55 
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nachiket wrote:
The gun is probably a IMI Negev. I remember seeing a pic of an Indian soldier (don't remember if he was from MARCOS or PARAs) firing a negev long time back. I'm unable to locate that pic anywhere now.

Image


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2012 17:44 
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Singha wrote:
marcos east could be in port blair or elsewhere in A&N..thats their playground

the LMG looks like M249 SAW used in khan forces.


It.s a collection of various assorted MARCO video's stitched together from various training exercises over a period of time, mostly off the east coast. I won't say where.


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2012 20:27 
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With a Spotter and much better maintained unlike the second one below.
Image


Fairly worn out
Image


But what version is this. Much shorter barrel? Also what org does this guy could be from?
Image


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2012 20:41 
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The last Dragunov looks like the SVDS version.


Last edited by aniket on 08 Mar 2012 20:43, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2012 20:43 
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iirc that people climbing gateway of india were marcos.


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2012 20:54 
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I remember seeing these pics in BR but could not locate them.

Re. last pic
The version I am not sure on. But in an urban setting at height I would expect the use of a longer barrel perhaps even a different weapon altogether. But this guy has apparently a new weapon. I guess the specialists job be best left to specialists.

Also what concerned me was the worn out weapon in the second pic (lost his cheekrest). Either the Designated Marksman is very very comfortable with his own weapon or could it be something else.


Also @Aniket, they are all various druganovs with various scopes. Unfortunately I am only a mango man on such matters. At first look the stock looked like a folding one to me. Also the shorter barrel made me think if its some Para SF version. I just needed some tips.
In time perhaps.


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2012 21:03 
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I'm no better.I just saw some pics and i guessed which one i thought resembled it the most


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2012 23:18 
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ravi_g wrote:
Also what concerned me was the worn out weapon in the second pic (lost his cheekrest). Either the Designated Marksman is very very comfortable with his own weapon or could it be something else.


The bold isn't necessarily true. The portion where the cheekrest should be is obscured by the barrel tip of the soldier beyond the frame on the left side.


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2012 23:27 
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The Dragunov with wooden butt stock is the original model SVD. The folding butt stock model is the SVD-S meant for airborne infantry. The barrel is shorter but heavier.

IIRC the marcos cleared out by noon on 27th itself once NSG took over. I'm not sure that the guys atop of Gateway of India stayed put. They might as well be the Ghatak battalion that setup the perimeter around the Taj, willing to be corrected though.


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2012 23:40 
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Marut you are right about the third soldier outside the frame but as I see it. The Cheekrest is actually there (compare the positioning of cheekrest in the 3 pics). I suggested the loss of cheekrest because of the string like thing that holds the cheekrest where it is. Probably a jugaad.

The barrel if shorter but heavier for airborne infantry, could also be using a different ammo. Just guessing here.


Also, while reading, what I noticed was the effective range that Indians give for this weapon which is invariably stated to be around 30% less than the stated effective for like chinese copies of SVDs. But something I found suggests the H&D by chinese manufacturers. Indians it seems are putting the effective range at what they think they can achieve at their reasonable best.


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PostPosted: 08 Mar 2012 23:48 
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^^^Marut, there is nothing like a Ghatak batallion....it is a platoon within an infantry unit. Those pics are infact of men from MARCOS. There was a detailed discussion on these pics and Dargunov version on BRF.


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2012 00:01 
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rohit, it was after reading some part of these discussions that I began reading about SVDs. I have a lot of respect for this weapon now and for the way it is deployed presently.

For future though it seems IA could get even better results by having a bigger program for Snipers.


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2012 00:04 
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Dragunov is a not a sniper rifle in classical sense. But does the job in our case.


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2012 00:14 
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Agree there.

Dragunov SVD was the 'best for us' and in most cases is likely to remain so.

What I was thinking of was M82/M107 class weapon used in all sort of settings. A .50 BMG cal weapon firing twice the distance of an SVD, could be a great force multiplier. I dont know what is used by IA for roles suitable for such bigger calibres.


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2012 00:43 
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@ ^^
Vidhwansak is used by BSF, I don't know if the Army uses them too.
Added later: Just learnt that the Gepard GM6 Lynx is used by IA. Pics here
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... 010/page10


Rohitvats, can you point towards the discussion of those pics of MARCOS and their Dragunovs?

Thanks


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2012 09:51 
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rohitvats wrote:
^^^Marut, there is nothing like a Ghatak batallion....it is a platoon within an infantry unit. Those pics are infact of men from MARCOS. There was a detailed discussion on these pics and Dargunov version on BRF.


Thanks for the correction Rohit. I did mean the Ghatak platoon. I remember the pics and discussion from that thread, but find it odd that of all the marcos these are the ones without any face mask! hence my doubts whether they really are marcos


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2012 10:30 
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atreya wrote:
<SNIP>Rohitvats, can you point towards the discussion of those pics of MARCOS and their Dragunovs?
Thanks


Please look for discussion thread on 26/11.


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2012 10:33 
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Gepard, Vidhwanshak (aka Denel NTW) are heavy caliber rifles primarily categorized as anti-material rifles. They are usually 12.7mm or 14.5mm in caliber which gives them much higher range than a regular 7.62mm rounds.

The primary use for these rifles is against light skinned vehicles & helos (shooting out the engine/rotors), battlefield C&C centers & command post, targets through sangars & fortifications etc. Their use against plain human targets is incidental and mostly due to the long range of engagements that were encountered in the Afghan and Iraq theaters by US. Even the IA & BSF employ these rifles for their primary roles.

In our context, the usual range of engagement in COIN ops is usually less than 500m for a sniper, hence the Dragunov & more recently the Galil 7.62 - which are essentially a designated marksman rifle - are found to be adequate for the job by RR & most SF. The NSG uses PSG-1 & MSG90 for their sniping operations. The PSG-1 considered to be one of the finest (& most expensive-USD8000 per unit) rifles has a range of 700-800m only and primarily used by law enforcement agencies abroad. The MSG90 is the militarized version of the PSG but is still labelled as designated marksman rifle.

The proper sniper rifles used by IA are the Mauser SP66 and SP86 as per pics & info in public domain. But there is no public info about any sniper training program like the ones you find in US military, etc. If any such info is available in public domain then jingos may please share and enlighten all of us.


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2012 10:40 
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i think we managed to buy 900 of NTW rifles before Denel got banned, hope the service contract was not banned and these remain fully operational.


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2012 11:51 
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ravi_g wrote:
Agree there.

Dragunov SVD was the 'best for us' and in most cases is likely to remain so.

What I was thinking of was M82/M107 class weapon used in all sort of settings. A .50 BMG cal weapon firing twice the distance of an SVD, could be a great force multiplier. I dont know what is used by IA for roles suitable for such bigger calibres.



In Kargil type areas where the mountains don't have too much vegetation, such snipers would be useful in shooting Pakis in Sangers and Bunkers with Machine guns. I think in operation Parakram and thereafter anti-material rifles procured from Denel had a huge impact on Paki Morale. Alas, UPA 1 and Renuka Choudary put paid to procurement of more of these.


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2012 12:10 
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but there are other vendors like barrett and more if we need 0.50cal and bigger rifles. its not a unique product.
barret is used by a huge list of countries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M82_Barrett_rifle

the pakis btw use a turkish bora-12 MKEK rifle as their main sniper rifle now per a tender.

there are even 20mm rifles...almost like a portable cannon from fighters. FBI has purchased some of these
some fascinating pix here
http://www.anzioironworks.com/MAG-FED-20MM-RIFLE.htm

maybe the FBI needs such overwatch snipers to disable criminal vehicles attempting to flee...or maybe they are just nuts for big guns and are pissed the army didnt give them a bushmaster cannon.


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2012 12:34 
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^ Denel NTW has a 20mm caliber as well. It's interchangable with the 14.5 so a 2-man team can carry the complete system and snipe as needed by the situation. We predominantly use the 14.5mm.

The development of the 0.5BMG and higher calibers were driven by the need to disable fleeing vehicles in urban settings and to strike at targets in vehicles, helos, bunkers/sangars etc. in military use. The range for the purposes is mostly around 1200-1500m. But it was also found that these bullets could be 'accurate' upto 2000+m against human targets due to their bullet weight and energy. This led to them being used in Afg & Iraq by the coalition forces to eliminate threats at standoff ranges. Even we can use them in these roles apart from sangar busting. Nothing says we aren't doing so :)


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2012 13:46 
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Singha wrote:
but there are other vendors like barrett and more if we need 0.50cal and bigger rifles. its not a unique product.
barret is used by a huge list of countries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M82_Barrett_rifle


Looks like India is one of the users of this Barrett.


- India: The M107 is used by Mumbai Police Force One Commandos.


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PostPosted: 09 Mar 2012 13:50 
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^Let's me rephrase the above statement.

India (Mumbai Police Force One) has the M107 Barret rifle.


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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2012 08:43 
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their small arms looks like a good mix of colt M4, ak56 and H&K.

what sniper rifle is used here in the chennai test match
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... tacks.html

to me it looks like a heavy barrel FN-FAL with bipod and scope. is that unit chennai police ATS ?


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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2012 09:59 
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TFTA SAS+SBS combo fail in their hostage rescue mission:
Briton, Italian killed in failed rescue bid

Quote:
A British-Nigerian operation, using helicopters and hundreds of troops including the elite SAS, to rescue two abducted foreigners went awry on Friday with the militant group Boko Haram killing the captives.

The special troops failed in their daring bid after waging a gun battle lasting over seven hours, with the Briton, Chris McManus, and his Italian co-worker, Franco Lamolinara, killed in the operation.

Italy seethed with anger for being kept in the dark about the deadly raid in the northwestern Nigerian city of Sokoto. At least two of the captors were also killed in the raid.

In the strongest condemnation, Italian President Giorgio Napolitano told reporters in Rome: “The behaviour of the British government in not informing Italy is inexplicable.”
“A political and diplomatic clarification is necessary.”

While Nigerian President Jonathan Goodluck blamed Boko Haram for the death of the hostages and said the killers had been arrested, British Prime Minister David Cameron took responsibility for authorising the botched operation.

Cameron said he had given the go-ahead for the rescue mission after the UK received “credible information” about the location of the two hostages.


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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2012 10:49 
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Is that a Chankian use of hyphenation to distribute the blame? :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2012 11:34 
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Singha wrote:
their small arms looks like a good mix of colt M4, ak56 and H&K.

what sniper rifle is used here in the chennai test match
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... tacks.html

to me it looks like a heavy barrel FN-FAL with bipod and scope. is that unit chennai police ATS ?


That sir.. is good old PSG-1, in use with NSG and other services since 80s.


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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2012 16:47 
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Raja Bose wrote:
Is that a Chankian use of hyphenation to distribute the blame? :mrgreen:

some parts of the british media will definitely blame the nigerians for this - incompetent dark colonial underlings blah blah
but so far they've held back. junior ministers have been on tv to say that the italians were in the loop, plus suggestions that italians are more amenable to buying their way out of these situations rather than no negotiation stance of uk gov. i expect there to be a huge italian public outcry over this death, which the italian gov is preempting by saying they werent informed

more seriously, i think boko haram are far more organised, disciplined and dangerous than the usual bunch of yahoos operating in the hinterland. almost certainly the displaced organisers from the mid east have made their way over here. and there will eventually be a pak connection somewhere


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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2012 16:53 
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Sid wrote:
Singha wrote:
their small arms looks like a good mix of colt M4, ak56 and H&K.

what sniper rifle is used here in the chennai test match
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... tacks.html

to me it looks like a heavy barrel FN-FAL with bipod and scope. is that unit chennai police ATS ?


That sir.. is good old PSG-1, in use with NSG and other services since 80s.


MSG-90


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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2012 17:43 
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the pakis should gell just fine with this lot, per wiki description:

Boko Haram is an indigenous Salafist group which only turned itself into a Salafist Jihadist group in 2009.[5] It propagates that not only interaction with the Western World is forbidden, but it is also against the Muslim establishment and the government of Nigeria.[17] The group publicly extols its ideology despite the fact that its founder and former leader Muhammad Yusuf was himself a highly educated man who lived a lavish life and drove a Mercedes Benz.[12]
The members of the group do not interact with the local Muslim population[18] and have carried out assassinations in the past of any one who criticises it, including Muslim clerics.[16]
In a 2009 BBC interview, Muhammad Yusuf, then leader of the group, rejected scientific explanation for natural phenomena, such as the sun evaporating water being the cause of rain, Darwinian evolution, and the Earth being a sphere "[i]f it runs contrary to the teachings of Allah".[12] Before his death, Yusuf reiterated the group's objective of changing the current education system and rejecting democracy.[19]
In the wake of the 2009 crackdown on its members and its subsequent reemergence, the growing frequency and geographical range of attacks attributed to Boko Haram have led some political and religious leaders in the north to the conclusion that the group has now expanded beyond its original religious composition to include not only Islamic militants, but criminal elements and disgruntled politicians as well.

and as predicted, Pakis are already active there :mrgreen:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1662359.stm

Six Pakistani Muslim preachers have been arrested in south-west Nigeria for allegedly inciting religious violence, press reports say.
According to independent Lagos daily newspaper The Guardian, the six men and their Nigerian host were picked up after residents in Sagamu, a suburb of the city of Lagos, tipped off a traditional ruler.

Residents said the preachers had used a public address system to propagate messages which they considered strange and capable of causing violence.


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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2012 23:47 
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nigeria is no stranger to religious rioting and pogroms featuring the ROP'ers


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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012 07:40 
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India’s secret army of Tibetans without parachutes; kickbacks suspected

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=17356

Saikat Datta / DNA

March 9, 10:30 IST

Quote:
New Delhi: India’s secret force of Tibetans, the SFF (Special Frontier Force), raised after the 1962 border conflict with China, has been without parachutes for nearly two years on the suspicion that senior officers tried to take kickbacks.

The SFF, sometimes also referred to as Establishment-22, has been a part of India’s external intelligence agency, R&AW, and was originally raised to play a role behind enemy lines in China in the event of a war.

Raised with the help of the CIA post-1962, it is a Special Forces unit almost the size of an army division and headed by a Major General on deputation. At the time of the procurement it was headed by Major General Dalbir Singh who has subsequently moved on to the North-East on promotion to command an army Corps. Parachutes are essential equipment for the SFF and are critical to the constant training and operations that the SFF undertakes on a regular basis.

Last year the SFF began the process to procure new parachutes since the ones in stock had either been used for the mandated 100 jumps or had lived their shelf life of 15 years. By May 2011 the tenders were sent out using the usual procedure that R&AW uses to mask its purchases, by using the front of a public sector undertaking that is under a different Union ministry.

The SFF put in a major criterion to select the parachutes. Any company that was bidding for the tender should have supplied parachutes to its armed forces. They also added another clause mandating that the parachutes must have been used by the military for at least five years to establish a proven track record. The SFF also ensured that the parachutes had to match the aircraft from which they would be deployed. So for any parachutes that were to be used for the Russian IL-76 aircraft, the parachutes had to be from an erstwhile “Warsaw Pact” country.

This ensured that two companies from Ukraine emerged as the front-runners for a supply of 150 parachutes for one batch, while a Spanish company emerged as the front-runner for a western aircraft that is currently used by the SFFF. Both put together, the initial purchase was to be of 300 parachutes followed by larger orders to equip the whole force. Each parachute costs about Rs1.25 lakh.

However, once the user trials began, senior officers noticed a major anomaly in the samples sent across by the two Ukranian companies. The samples, sources told DNA, were matching sequentially. “We noticed that if the serial number was 514 in one parachute, the other sample was 515. How was that possible if two separate manufacturers had sent us separate random samples? Even the lettering was the same which meant they were sent from the same manufacturer,” a senior officer from R&AW, familiar with the case, told DNA.


Any chance of them being absorbed in the Mountain Strike Corps?


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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012 07:47 
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RAW comes under home ministry and not the army right? imo its high time this force be absorbed into the army and infact form the core of one of the new mountain strike divisions, with every member being uniquely para certified. kind of like the 1st airborne division concept adapted to the mountains.

that would be far better use than sitting under RAW.


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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012 08:00 
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It is cabinet secretariat, but rather more directly to PMO. Caution on what we wish. We should not treat the Tibetan friends as our Foreign Legion.


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