Managing Chinese Threat

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Christopher Sidor
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Christopher Sidor »

The State of the World: Assessing China's Strategy --- Stratfor dated 6-March-2012

This analysis, is interesting if we read between the lines. It does take a smug look at the chinese position militarily w.r.t America. There are some unique view points which are given in this article
Plans for industrial expansion are implemented with little thought to markets or margins; instead, maximum employment is the driving goal. Private savings are harnessed to finance the industrial effort, leaving little domestic capital to purchase the output. China must export accordingly.
....
China's industrial base by design produces more than its domestic economy can consume, so China must export goods to the rest of the world while importing raw materials.
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The very model of employment and market share over profitability misallocates scores of resources and breaks the normally self-regulating link between supply and demand. One of the more disruptive results is inflation, which alternatively raises the costs of subsidizing the interior while eroding China's competitiveness with other low-cost global exporters.
Till now some, including myself, were working under the impression that since margins are more in case of exports, China exports more to the world and does not consume so much. This is off course a very simplistic way of looking at things, because Chinese per-capita GDP is not that too high that they can consume so much. But this interplay, that fixed investment, drains so much from the Chinese savings that little is left for purchasing goods produced by china is interesting to say the least. Moreover it ignores the billions of FDI that flows into china.
The wealthier coast depends on trade that is now faltering, and the impoverished interior requires subsidies that are difficult to provide when economic growth is slowing substantially.

As far as the India-Tibet-China dynamic comes into play this is what is said in the article
For India, an independent Tibet without Chinese forces would be interesting, but a Tibet where the Indians would have to commit significant forces would not be. As much as the Tibetans represent a problem for China, the problem is manageable. Tibetan insurgents might receive some minimal encouragement and support from India, but not to a degree that would threaten Chinese control.
Again assumptions.


But this is not where the article goes off the rails and looses its objectivity. Rather it is something else
The configuration of the South China Sea and the East China Sea render China relatively easy to blockade. The East China Sea is enclosed on a line from Korea to Japan to Taiwan, with a string of islands between Japan and Taiwan. The South China Sea is even more enclosed on a line from Taiwan to the Philippines, and from Indonesia to Singapore. Beijing's single greatest strategic concern is that the United States would impose a blockade on China, not by positioning its 7th Fleet inside the two island barriers but outside them. From there, the United States could compel China to send its naval forces far away from the mainland to force an opening -- and encounter U.S. warships -- and still be able to close off China's exits.
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The People's Liberation Army (PLA) is primarily configured as a domestic security force -- a necessity because of China's history of internal tensions.
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Having been designed for internal security, the PLA is doctrinally and logistically disinclined toward offensive operations. Using a force trained for security as a force for offensive operations leads either to defeat or very painful stalemates.
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The PLA was built to control China, not to project power outward, and strategies built around the potential need for power projection are risky at best.
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there remain enormous limitations on China's ability to project military power on a scale sufficient to challenge the United States directly.
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China therefore faces a significant strategic problem. China must base its national security strategy on what the United States is capable of doing, not on what Beijing seems to want at the moment. China cannot counter the United States at sea, and its strategy of building ports in the Indian Ocean suffers from the fact that its costs are huge and the political conditions for access uncertain. The demands of creating a force capable of guaranteeing access runs counter to the security requirements inside China itself.
America has a military force, which is used primarily to project power outside its home base. Hence in its enemies or shall we use the diplomatically correct term "potential enemies", it tends to look at the ability to project power outside its shores. Stratfor falls victim to this fallacy or shall we say narcissism. China does not have to challenge US in open seas of Western Pacific or Indian Ocean. They do not have to keep the sea lanes open from Indian Ocean to Pacific. Rather just like the Britishers did to the Spaniards, they only have to defeat US at their own home ground. The defeat of the Spaniards signaled the end of the first empire, i.e Spanish, on which sun never set and birth of the 2nd empire, i.e. British, on which sun never set. America's biggest strength is not its power projection capabilities, it is the awe associated with it. If that edifice is challenged successfully in South China sea, it will collapse everywhere else.

The assumption that PLA is configured for internal security duties ignores the history of PLA in Korea, Tibet, against India and against Soviets.

Further read again the words quoted above which have been highlighted in bold. Now during the korean war, America sent with impunity its ships to the yellow sea. Later on during the reign of Mao it positioned its armada literally in the middle of the Taiwan straits, on the west coast of Taiwan.
By 1990s when China went berserk and fired missiles over Taiwan, America could no longer position its ships in the middle of Taiwan straits, but had to position its forces further away on the east coast of Taiwan.
More than a decade after that when North Korea sank a South Korea vessel, America decided to carry out naval exercises with South Korea. Even those naval exercises had to be shifted away from yellow sea so that they were not seen threatening to China.
If we trace a line from 1950, to present we observe that till 1980s US was in a position to do what is pleases inside Chinese EEZ and some would say even inside Chinese territorial waters. Since then American ability to act inside what are claimed by Chinese as their seas, has diminished. So much so that the now the safest thing for Americans to do would be to enforce a blockade from outside the island chains surrounding China. And going further in time, we can see this diminishing even more.

All the american CBGs have to come from west coast of america. All the chinese CBGs will have to come from Hainan or somewhere nearby. If an american ship is damaged it will have to limp back to american western shore or take refuge is some 3rd nation, which will be highly an unappealing scenario anyway one looks at it. In case of China this would not be the case. In other words China has a home advantage compared to America in the 2nd and 3rd island chain. China's Lines of communications are shorter. America's are massively long. PLAN will not need to have one-to-one parity with USN as far as number of ships and CBGs are concerned for a successful challenge. And when PLAN does achieve this one-to-one parity with USN, the battle would essentially be over for USN. We learned this in 1962.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by krisna »

great game in kashmir
India has a long history of ignoring Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir. With China entering the fray, can the country afford to follow this policy of indifference? Utpal Kumar talks to two well-known experts from Gilgit-Baltistan
What’s your take on the increased Chinese activities in Gilgit-Baltistan?

China has been involved with the region since the early 1950s and the 1960s. First, it occupied 5,180 sq km of Gilgit-Baltistan which Pakistan gifted it in the 1960s. And then in the 1970s, it started working on infrastructure, building roads through Gilgit-Baltistan into Pakistan’s Karakoram Highway. Since then, there have been trade activities and military movements between China and Pakistan through this region. There were also reports of Pakistani missiles being transported through this highway. So, it has been a strategic route used by Beijing for a long time.

In the past 10 years, however, China has realised the need to exploit the resources of West Asia as well as enhance its military/strategic relationship with the Muslim world. And it’s Gilgit-Baltistan that can provide it a short, safe and quick access to Iran, Afghanistan and Arab countries. No wonder, the Chinese are now talking about spending $16-18 billion on a rail line between Pakistan and China through Gilgit-Baltistan. They have built more than 20 tunnels to quicken the time needed to transport humans as well as goods — both civilian and military — between Pakistan and China. It is expected that when this whole road and rail transportation is completed, it will take less than three days to cover the distance between Beijing and the Persian Gulf, whereas right now it takes about two-three weeks. It will allow Beijing to build a strong economic and military/strategic alliance with the Arab world. Also, China is working on increasing the influence of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) and is offering membership to other countries. Maybe one day it will be extended to Arab countries.
There are reports in Pakistani newspapers that Islamabad has agreed to lease Gilgit-Baltistan to Beijing for 50 years. Is it true? How is it going to impact the region?

Like many others we too have read these reports. Incidentally, it hasn’t been denied by any side, Government or non-Government, military or civilian. This is strange as they could have just denied the report, especially as it has come from a leading American think tank. Also, Pakistan’s military chief Ashfaq Parvez Kayani has recently said that the two countries are starting a strategic programme — the Pakistan-China Strategic Programme for Gilgit-Baltistan — in June this year. Eventually it will enable China to have more military presence in the region.

China does understand that having control over Gilgit-Baltistan is important to safeguard its economic and military interests in east Turkistan and Tibet, besides having more access to the Persian Gulf and Afghanistan. And, of course, this will help tighten noose over India.
Has it something to do with growing rift between America and Pakistan?

Pakistan tries in its own way to play China against the US — and vice versa. But Beijing is pragmatic and believes in pursuing a long-term goal. There are reports that China eventually wants to transform the SCO into an Asian NATO. One also needs to understand that these are the issues of mutual interest for Iran, Pakistan and China. Iran is isolated and the way out of isolation is getting help from China. Beijing wants the Persian Gulf for its strategic and economic growth. As for Pakistan, it is playing the game to extract benefits from the US by using the China card and vice versa. So, Gilgit-Baltistan has today become the focal point of a new ‘Great Game’ being played in the region.
How are the people of POK reacting to the Chinese presence?

We should first understand the perspective of the people of the region, its history and the nature of Pakistan’s control and its use of this territory for terrorism against India. Before 2005, POK was a closed territory. During this time China wasn’t involved with it. But after 2007, Chinese role increased in the area, particularly after negotiations between India and Pakistan during the Musharraf era entered into a more serious phase. China was alarmed by these developments and didn’t want complete breakthrough on the issue. As a result, we witnessed a shift in the Chinese policy vis-à-vis Kashmir as it started issuing visa on a separate sheet of paper. Also, Beijing started calling POK an integral part of Pakistan.

In 2007-08, China jumped onto a reconstruction bandwagon in Gilgit-Baltistan and signed almost 72 projects with Pakistan. Such reconstruction activities, however, are just a Chinese excuse to control the region. China does understand the importance of POK in politico-strategic terms. Now, as the crises have deepened in Pakistan, whether political, economic or strategic, China is alarmed. Tomorrow Pakistan might disintegrate, and China could find India in control of POK, thanks to its historical, constitutional and cultural claims. So, in order to prevent such eventualities, China has registered its presence. If Islamabad disintegrates, Beijing is there to question Delhi’s claims.

There are two schools of opinion in POK: One is nationalist, and the other is pro-Pakistan. Of course, the latter will say what Islamabad will dictate, but the nationalists have a mind of their own. They have sent protest letters to China when it started giving stapled visas to those belonging to Jammu & Kashmir, saying it should do the same for POK. So, the nationalists are quite concerned with the increasing influence of China.
cross posted in Balwaristan and TSP and J&K thread threads
rajrang
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by rajrang »

krisna wrote:great game in kashmir
From this fascinating article it would seem that Gilgit Baltistan has far greater strategic significance than Arunachal Pradesh. Then, is PRC applying pressure on India along the Uttar Arunachal / Arunachal Pradesh border in order to keep India's attention (and military forces) far away from GB? Should India start a more aggressive re-armament in Ladakh/Uttaranchal as well?
svinayak
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by svinayak »

It is far easier to take over Gilgit Baltistan and POK than the eastern sector.

India has to plan for everything and also plan for denying access to PRC and other major pwoers in the area.

Denying access is the most important one
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by shyamd »

x posting satya ji's post:
satya wrote:Str8 from horse mouth :

Media very much under reporting what's actually happening in PRC. There's inner party struggle coupled with general discontent simmering in inner & CARs+ Russian border areas . Imminent war with PRC more than possible if situation doesn't come under control in next two or so months .Till september anything possible .So we(indian defense ) have 'activated' our defensive measures( what level no idea but plans put into motion no doubt about that ) based on this assumption= fact .PLA has deployed troops in Tibet in last week or so more than required for so called 'exercise' . Troop buildup with logistics exceed those required for exercise. Uncertainty on the outcome of such a war as too many variables for how far we are willing to go one of the factors . Also no matter whosoever is responsible for this mess in PRC its India that will face the consequences for reasons known here on forum that CCP will raise indian threat bogey & divert this anger into nationalism in nutshell .

For once TSP no longer an issue nor TSPA why i don't know but very assured on TSP front what's the deal no idea but there must be some ironclad guarantee face to face ( again Chiddu's groundbreaking visit comes to mind again a guess only ) As per DB's own words ' Pakistani na teen main na terah main iske alawa pindi ke jernail sacche desh bhakt hein hamein unki desh (bharat) bahkti per ungli nahin uthani chahiye aur unki budhimatta per hamein puran visvas hei.Jung ke maidaan main unki buddhi aur budhi ki karamat ke kisse jag jahir hei :rotfl: :mrgreen: , Chinni m******d k****e they won't agree that easy ( as if TSP has agreed forever ? guessing )

IA's next COAS worst in memory with exception of JLN's choices . He doesn't have 50% required caliber at this rank & responsibility .
This explains why PRC wants india to get HH DL to calm things down and the type of operations they have been conducting in Tibet, Xinjiang etc. Question is why has the west not given enough reporting on this - same goes for India and its media as well.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Prem »

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 426684.cms
Taking steps to address India's concerns on trade: China
BEIJING: China has said that it would take all possible steps to address India's concerns about the widening trade imbalance in its favour and assured a level playing field to Indian companies, including pharma and IT, wanting to exploit the Chinese market.
Noting that there is a huge scope to further scale up trade and investment, Deputy Director General of Commerce Ministry Liang Wentao said the bilateral trade volume, which hit a record $ 73.9 billion last year, was still relatively "small" compared to size of the economy of both countries.
Interacting with the visiting journalists here, Wentao - the point man for trade issues with India - listed steps to address the problem of trade surplus in China's favour. He said the Chinese government has already asked its banks and financial institutes to extend funds to Indian companies in China. "We have told our financial institutes to extend help to Indian companies without any limit," Wentao said, exuding confidence about meeting the annual bilateral trade target of $ 100 by 2015. Holding that the Chinese government never favoured any trade surplus in its favour "intentionally", he said the Chinese government has been initiating a number of steps to bridge the gap which include giving Indian companies access to exploit China's annual import market of $ 1.4 trillion. Indian has been expressing concerns over the ballooning trade surplus in China's favour, which piled up to $ 27.07 billion in 2011 even though Indian exports to the neighbouring country went up to $ 23.4 billion. India has long been pushing for market access to Indian pharmaceutical and IT companies.
Christopher Sidor
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Christopher Sidor »

Proof is pouring in that US will most probably have a lost decade as far as navy is concerned. This has implications for India.

[url=http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/03 ... avy-ships/]Shrinkage: Navy Won’t Build as Many Ships as It Planned -- Wired Dated 29-March-2012[\url]
According to the new shipbuilding plan (.pdf), released Wednesday by Deputy Defense Secretary Ashton Carter, the Navy won’t build any new ballistic missile submarines until 2021. It won’t build any big-deck amphibious assault ships, key for the Navy and the Marines to fight as a team, until 2017, when it will build… one more. After next year, the Navy won’t fund the construction of ships above replacement levels until 2018. All told, the Navy’s downgrading the total number of ships in 30 years it wants to maybe 300, a drop of at least 13 ships. And all this will occur as the Navy surges in the Persian Gulf and the Western Pacific.

“It makes little sense to be shrinking our Navy just months after the announcement of a strategy that would shift emphasis to Asia, the Pacific, and the Mideast — areas where a strong naval presence is an imperative,” Rep. Todd Akin, the chairman of the House subcommittee on seapower, said at a Thursday hearing.
What this basically means is that US will not build any new nuclear submarines for at least a decade. In the same decade China will increase and improve its nuclear submarine fleet. It is fair to assume that the existing Virginias and Seawolf class of submarine will get upgrades to keep them in the top of their league, but it does not eliminate the need for new submarines, especially when Los-Angles class are getting old.
While the SSBN is more of a strategic concern, the Amphibious assault ships cuts will directly impact the ability of US Marines and US Army to come to aid of Taiwan in case of an invasion.
Christopher Sidor
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Christopher Sidor »

I recently read an old thesis, from American Naval Post Graduate School, Monterey, California Dated March-2008 (approximately 4+ years old), titled Taiwan’s Dilemma: China, the United States, and Reunification by Eric von Kessler

It is basically a rehash of the old stuff, about how american ambiguity regarding Taiwan helps preserve peace, how China must soften itself to make it more attractive for Taiwanese, blah, blah, blah. If we omit these typical american thought process then we get the following points

This thesis claims in its own words
Page 43 of the thesis wrote: Taipei cannot eliminate the possibility of reunification and must be willing to expand talks between the two sides.
Page 44 of the thesis wrote: It(i.e. US) cannot allow Beijing to intimidate Taiwan or Taipei to provoke China.
Many Americans are not opposed to Taiwan becoming a Chinese province. They see Taiwan as a part of China, and historically for the past 300 years it has been part of China. What Americans want is the so called "peaceful reunification."

The thesis claims that PLA's modernization was a consequence of 1991 Gulf War. But in its own words
Page 48 of the thesis wrote: The 1995-96 Strait crisis transformed PLA thoughts on advanced reforms. The missile testing derived that the United States would respond should Beijing use force against Taiwan. Taipei’s arrogance was based on its reliance on the United States. PRC leadership determined that China’s military power needed to be perceived as credible to prevent further steps toward Taiwan independence and U.S. interference.
Page 50 of the thesis wrote: In August 1999, enlarged meeting of CCP's Political Bureau was held in Beidaihe. Originally designed to focus on the economy, the focus switched to military advancement and the Taiwan issue. The outcome was the “998 National Security System Project.” Its main points include
(1) to develop new strategic and tactical weapons;
(2) to develop ship and submarine launched missiles and cruise missiles;
(3) to equip the army, earlier than planned with electronic weapons, laser guns, and other directed energy weapons;
(4) to terminate consultation with the United States on proliferation of weapons;
(5) to partially revise the non-first-use nuclear policy; and
(6) to revise the outsated position of non-alliance and non-grouping.
If 1991 war was the sprut which caused the modernization of PLA then it is strange that it would take about 8 years to give direction regarding the same. I know bureaucracy can be lethargic to say the least, but this is well pushing it to the limit, especially in a country which is allegedly so efficient and which can take very quick decisions. They way I see it is that the 1995-96 Taiwan strait incident, caused the PRC and PLA to assess its capabilities w.r.t US. It was found deficient. Hence the spurt. It was not the gulf war of 1991.

And if you are wondering about the so called "998 National Security System Project", well the source of this info is a book China's dilemma: the Taiwan issue by Lijun Sheng

It was clear in 2008 that China is building an aircraft carrier, however there is still no clarity on the actual role of the ship, whether it will be used in case of Taiwan or is meant for South China Sea. After all if India can choke Chinese shipping going through the Malacca straits, then China can do the same for shipping meant for Japan, Korea, Taiwan and indirectly USA flowing through the south china sea.
Page number 55 of the thesis wrote: To counter Taiwan’s naval acquisitions and to deter the United States from entering into conflict on behalf of Taiwan, the PLA-N modernization program has focused on submarines, destroyers, and an aircraft carrier.
Page number 56 of the thesis wrote: Whether utilized for fighters or helicopters, its (i.e. Chinese aircraft carrier) mission revolves around the PLA-N’s submarine centric warfare.

About the state of balance between China and Taiwan, well things are not looking good
Cross-strait naval balance favors China. The PLA-N could easily ensure sea control around Taiwan. China claims a 14 to 1 advantage in submarines and 3 to 1 advantage in principal combatants;
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An estimated 99 per cent of Taiwan's international trade goes by sea (75 percent via the ports of Keelung and Kaohsiung), while 82 per cent of its GNP is derived from international trade. Moreover, 100 per cent of Taiwan's crude oil is imported; a supertanker docks in Kaohsiung every three days. Establishing a blockade of Taiwan essentially isolates the island from the international community. Port closures and the removal of foreign trade would devastate Taiwan’s economy forcing it to reconsider reunification.
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While a blockade is an act of war under international law, the great majority of nations do not disagree with China’s “one China” position and Beijing could claim that this was a “closure of ports,” within its sovereign rights.
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China’s large inventory of sea mines, and Taiwan’s poor MCM capabilities, a mine blockade is a potentially serious threat to Taiwan. With only 12 assets available for mine clearing operations, Taiwan must gain U.S. assistance. With only two Mine Countermeasure (MCM) ships based in Japan and the remaining located in Texas, Taiwan’s ports would be secured(by China) for a considerable time.
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Although Taiwan has acquired missile defense systems, the short time required for PLA missiles to reach the island allows for few missiles to be neutralized.
But why is America so interested in keeping the taiwan status-quo, however unsustainable it may be?
Page number 63 of the thesis wrote: The defeat of both the United States and Taiwan would be damaging for each. China emerges as the regional hegemon and a major actor in world affairs. Washington’s international reputation is dealt a tremendous blow. The United States would have no choice but to accept Taiwan’s reunification or as the beginning of another Cold War.
Page number 64 of the thesis wrote: Taiwan's proximity to China, the difficulty involved in interdicting Chinese attacks without directly striking the Chinese mainland, and the historical inclination of both sides to display resolve in a crisis through decisive -- and sometimes rapid - military action suggest that escalation might prove extremely difficult to control.
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Any hesitation or nonintervention by the United States would be viewed as Washington realizing the superior power of Chinese forces and tarnishing American clout in the international community.
So America may have to come to defense of Taiwan not out of love of Taiwan or some democratic-fraternity crap. It will have to come to defense of Taiwan out of its own reasons. Just as UK had to come to defense of Poland in 1939.

And what will happen once the Taiwan issue has been resolved to the satisfaction of PRC
Should a peaceful resolution occur, Beijing’s military focus may shift to its secondary concern – the protection of vital resources and sea lines of communication.
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The PLA is molding into a force capable of performing a variety of military functions not only against Taiwan, but in the Asia-Pacific region and beyond. Although China’s military modernization amplifies anxiety in its neighbors, it provides Beijing the option to utilize coercion to obtain an advantage in capital, natural resources, and resolving territorial disputes.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by harbans »

China has stopped issuing stapled visas to residents of Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir after India threatened to reciprocate with Tibet per HT.
Missed this piece of news..link please if you have. I think anyways India should either do away with Visas for Tibetans or give a special stapled one. Do it anyways now that China tried nonsense. Should remind them next step may be derecognition of Chinese claims on Kailash-Mansarover and Tibet next in order if it screws around more. Step by step we should make Tibet disputed.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by brihaspati »

Moved : partly OT.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Philip »

The speed with which the US and the Phillipines are discussing the return of US bases/facilities,some say that secret agreements already exist and that US forces have been using P territory,is a forerunner of ehat will happen if China pursues its aggro against the ASEAN bloc.Warning India about commercial oil exploration was a superb own goal by the PRC,as it has alarmed ASEAN nations even further,as they would want to exploit their own legitimate offshore rights .For China to arrogate to itself anything that it chooses to lust after has revealed to the world that the current leadership are the "Nazis of the 21st century",a bunch of parasitical sh*tworms ,preying upon the nations of Asia,with clear plans of acquisition by force or threat.China plans a$50B investment in Hanbamtota in Lanka.In India's own backyard.Where is India? Under the craven regime of snake-oil Singh,we behaved like the toilet roll holder for Uncle Sam at Geneva.What a disgrace!
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Prem »

'Time for closer ties' with India
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2012- ... 008954.htm
Emerging economies 'hold key' to global growth over next 20 years
A senior Indian planning official has called for closer economic cooperation between India and China for mutual benefit over the next 20 years. Montek Singh Ahluwalia, vice-chairman of India's planning commission, said emerging economies are now the world's engine. "Traditionally, probably both of us have seen industrialized countries as the world's growth pools and looked at how to deepen relations with the industrialized world," Ahluwalia told China Daily on the sidelines of the Boao Forum for Asia Annual Conference 2012. Over the next 20 years, industrialized nations "will be very important sources of technology" but GDP growth will almost certainly come from emerging markets like China and India, he said.
Amid global economic uncertainty, emerging countries have more growth capacity, he said.
Ahluwalia was the first director of the independent evaluation office at the International Monetary Fund. He also co-chaired the first India-China Strategic Economic Dialogue last year, a significant platform for bilateral ties as both countries previously only had such mechanisms with the United States. Zhang Ping, minister of the National Development and Reform Commission, led China's delegation. Given the world economic outlook for the next three to five years, it's not surprising that China and India will grow more slowly, Ahluwalia said. But the actual expansion rates don't matter so much as that both countries contribute to world growth. "China is ahead of India in many dimensions. We look at what's happening in China with interest because we have many similar problems," he said. The two countries' economies are also often complementary. India is undertaking a large expansion of its electricity generation sector and importing much equipment from China, he noted.
Suraj
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Suraj »

Philip wrote:Where is India?
Indian response to Chinese South China Sea warning:
"South China Sea is property of world": India
Chinese retort:
Describing South China Sea as a global property is a mistake:Chinese paper
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by shyamd »

India moots $50 bn fund for military to counter China, threats from Pakistan
India plans to spend about $50 billion to upgrade its military inorder to counter the rising might of China and threats from Pakistan, in deals that make India a lucrative market for firms such as Boeing and Dassault. Following are some of the programmes that have been announced or are planned by the government.

Estimated to have more nuclear weapons than India, Pakistan is rapidly developing and expanding its atomic arsenal, spending about $ 2.5 billion a year to develop such weapons, a report has said.

"Pakistan has been rapidly developing and expanding its nuclear arsenal, increasing its capacity to produce plutonium, and testing and deploying a diverse array of nuclear-capable ballistic and cruise missiles," said the report 'Assuring Destruction Forever: Nuclear Modernisation Around The World'.

"Pakistan is moving from an arsenal based wholly on HEU to greater reliance on lighter and more compact plutonium-based weapons, which is made possible by a rapid expansion in plutonium production capacity," said the 150-page report by Reaching Critical Will of the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom.

"Pakistan is also moving from aircraft-delivered nuclear bombs to nuclear-armed ballistic and cruise missiles and from liquid-fueled to solid-fueled medium-range missile. Pakistan also has a growing nuclear weapons research, development, and production infrastructure," it said.

According to the report Pakistan is estimated to have 90-110 nuclear weapons. "A long-term concern now driving Pakistan's nuclear programme is the US policy of countering the rise of China by cultivating a stronger strategic relationship with India. This may tie the future of Pakistan and India's nuclear weapons to the emerging contest between the United States and China," said the report.

Pakistan has a number of short-range, medium, and longer-range road-mobile ballistic surface-to-surface missiles in various stages of development.

"It has developed a second generation of ballistic missile systems over the past five years. It is estimated that Pakistan could have a stockpile of 2750 kg of weapon-grade HEU and may be producing about 150 kg of HEU per year," it said.

Estimates suggest Pakistan has produced a total of about 140 kg of plutonium, the report said.

While not much information is available on the funding of Pakistan's nuclear weapons project, the report said estimates indicate that Pakistan spends about $ 2.5 billion a year on nuclear weapons.

Despite extensive foreign military assistance, Pakistan's effort to sustain its conventional and nuclear military programmes has come at increasingly great cost to the effort to meet basic human needs and improve living standards, the report said.

India, the report, said is estimated to have 80-100 nuclear warheads. "It is also developing a range of delivery vehicles, including land- and sea-based missiles, bombers, and submarines," it said.

"While nuclear weapons used to be seen as a 'necessary evil', there is no more enthusiasm for India to become a bonafide nuclear weapon power that can exercise its military might in the region," it said.
Read more at:
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by brihaspati »

Interesting that we are talking now based on what WILPF conjectures and demands. From Wiki which quotes from the org's page:
The Women's International League for Peace and Freedom (WILPF) created the Reaching Critical Will project in 1999, in order to increase the quality and quantity of civil society at international disarmament fora, such as those that take place at the United Nations. We believe that nuclear disarmament will require coordinated and sustained effort on the part of governments, non-governmental organizations and the United Nations. Reaching Critical Will is WILPF's initiative to encourage people to act and contribute to a variety of international fora. For non-governmental organizations and concerned individuals to act, they need information, primary documents, and analysis. Reaching Critical Will collects, packages, and often translates disarmament related information into terms ordinary people can understand.

Reaching Critical Will has five aims:

Centralize and disseminate information about intergovernmental meetings that discuss nuclear weapons and their elimination;
Maintain a centralized electronic repository of information, and information services through our website http://www.reachingcriticalwill.org;
Increase the quality and quantity of NGO preparation and participation in these processes;
Increase the quality and quantity ofNGO interaction with governments and the United Nations and it's family of specialized agencies;
Provide logistical support in facilitating activities before and during these fora tailored for policy-makers and the public
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RajeshA »

Published on Apr 09, 2012
By Sofia Wu
Taiwan-India FTA in the offing: Focus Taiwan News Channel
President Ma Ying-jeou became the Republic of China's first incumbent president ever to set foot on Indian soil when his chartered plane landed at Chhatrapati Shivaji International Airport in Mumbai Sunday for refueling.

Ma, accompanied by a delegation of government officials, was on his way to the African continent for a three-nation state visit to the ROC's three diplomatic allies -- Burkina Faso, The Gambia and Swaziland.

The refueling stop was seen as a breakthrough in relations with India. As a matter of fact, Taiwan-India trade and economic ties have grown fast in recent years, despite the absence of formal diplomatic ties, according to local media reports.

In March 2011, the reports said, the Indian Ministry of Foreign Affairs took the initiative to negotiate a free trade agreement (FTA) with Taiwan. Both sides have commissioned think tanks to study the feasibility of striking such a deal. If all goes well, the reports said, the two countries are likely to start FTA talks this year.

The following are excerpts from a special report in the Monday edition of the Taipei-based China Times on latest developments in Taiwan-Indian trade ties:

James Tien, director-general of the Department of East Asian and Pacific Affairs under the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MOFA), said earlier this month that both Taiwan and India are interested in striking a free trade deal.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by rajrang »

China building observatory in Occupied Aksai Chin:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 678430.cms

India should lean on Japan and S Korea to back out as well as tell China not to complicate relationships between India and PRC by taking provocative steps on occupied Indian territory.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Bade »

Japan already has some investments at the Hanle site in Ladakh is what I had read earlier, so what inducements can PRC provide. Hanle site is difficult to get to by road.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Prem »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17724429
US and Philippines begin South China Sea drills
Joint military exercises between the US and the Philippines are getting under way in the South China Sea, even as Manila remained locked in a stand-off with Beijing over a disputed shoal.
The annual exercises, called Balikatan, are due to run until 27 April. This year they are taking place off Palawan, near parts of the South China Sea both Manila and Beijing claim. Meanwhile Philippine and Chinese vessels remain at the Scarborough Shoal, a week after the deadlock began. The Philippines said its warship found eight Chinese fishing vessels at the shoal - which both sides claim - when it was patrolling the area on 8 April.When navy personnel boarded the Chinese fishing vessels on Tuesday they found a large amount of illegally-caught fish and coral, it said. Two Chinese surveillance ships then arrived in the area, preventing the navy from making arrests.Incidents in the South China Sea involving fishing boats or energy survey vessels are becoming more frequent, demonstrating the lack of any common rules of the road to resolve competing territorial claims. China insists that its rights in areas like the disputed Spratly Islands are paramount, despite rival claims from the Philippines, Vietnam and other countries too. The government in Manila is taking steps to modernise its small naval and air forces. But it is looking to Washington to help balance China's growing power. Two decades after US forces were evicted from their biggest base in the Pacific, there has been talk of a renewed US military presence. The fact that the joint exercises are being held on the island of Palawan - the closest Philippines territory to the Spratlys - will doubtless irritate China. But the Philippines government must walk a tightrope here - China is its third largest trading partner. It wants to defend its corner but doesn't want to provoke a crisis with Beijing. Attempts to resolve the stand-off do not as yet appear to have been successfu[/b]
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Prem »

India climbdown may help China border dispute
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-17738147
Fifty years after India and China fought a month-long war over their disputed Himalayan territory, hopes of a solution to the boundary dispute seem to be emerging.India seems to be climbing down from a stiff position that not an inch of its land can be given away to China to resolve the border dispute that has dogged the two Asian giants since the 1950s."It is important to solve the India-China border dispute and for that some give and take is necessary," said retired General JJ Singh."India will have to move away from our position that our territory is non-negotiable," he said.Gen Singh did not specify the "give-and-take" he thought necessary, but specialists feel that he was hinting at India accepting some of the Chinese positions on the disputed Himalayan border and vice-versa.Gen Singh is now governor of the frontier state of Arunachal Pradesh, the whole of which is claimed by China as its own. Chinese maps mark the state as Southern Tibet and when the Chinese claim line was posted on Google earlier this year, it led to a furore in India.Giving the inaugural speech at a national seminar on Indo-China relations organised by the Indian Council of Social Science Research and Rajiv Gandhi University, Gen Singh made a strong plea for normalisation of Sino-Indian relations."The world has changed and we are a much more confident nation now. It is important to realise that we need a speedy resolution to the Indo-China boundary dispute and for that some give-and-take may be necessary."
However, he did not spell out where India might need to concede to Chinese positions and vice-versa."By and large, the McMahon Line will help resolve the boundary of the two countries but some incongruities apparent on the ground might have to be amicably resolved and there is no scope for conflict as we have agreed to resolve the issue peacefully," the Arunachal Pradesh governor said.Predictions of a looming Sino-Indian war were "utter nonsense", Gen Singh said.
"I must tell these futurologists and experts to stop this nonsense of predicting a Indo-China war, first in 2010, then in 2012 and now in 2020. They will be proved wrong as we will not fight. We are competitors, not rivals," he said."These experts have no ground knowledge, they don't know that Chinese and Indian soldiers actually play volleyball on the borders. "We have plans for extensive military-to-military interactions between the two countries," Gen Singh told the conference. "That includes joint military exercises."He said India will nevertheless not compromise on its military preparedness.But the governor said there was no scope for a purely militaristic approach and it was equally important to develop Arunachal Pradesh by utilising its considerable resources so that the "very patriotic Arunachalis" feel more and more strongly about defending their land against any possible aggression.Talking of Chinese territorial claims on the area, Gen Singh said: "Our Chinese friends should come here and find out for themselves what the Arunachalis feel about China and India. Nobody here wants to be part of China."
Swap offer
Many China specialists in India have welcomed Singh's statements."We need a pragmatic approach to resolve the border dispute, said CV Rangnathan, a former Indian ambassador to China who also attended the conference. "We can't keep the matter hanging and a give-and-take approach is the best way to do it."
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by shyamd »

US announced drills with Vietnam as well.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by ramana »

Thanks Jhujar.....
http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/ ... sile-test/

Indian Missile Test Ups The Pressure on A Jumpy Beijing
On Thursday, India tested a long-range, nuclear-capable missile with the ability to hit major Chinese cities such as Beijing and Shanghai. According to AJC the test was a success, and New Delhi is now planning to add more of these missiles to its regular arsenal over the next three years.This is a big step for India, and an even bigger step in the development of the Great Game in Asia. While India has always been one of the region’s strongest military powers, it has lagged far behind China, as its military outlook has been focused instead on dealing with a much weaker Pakistan. Pakistan’s continuing decline has changed that calculation; Pakistan is a great power in the realm of terror, but its conventional forces are not an offensive threat to India and strategically speaking, the greatest danger Pakistan poses to its neighbor is that its continuing disintegration will unleash forces of chaos and destruction.Meanwhile in Beijing, India’s missile test is just the latest in a long string of bad news. This is a grim spring for Beijing, even if most western commentary has been unable so far to connect the dots. Nothing is going China’s way. Domestically, life stinks. The economy is still showing signs of strain, sporadic rioting continues, and the Bo Xilai drama, which daily brings new and damaging revelations about the way China works is doing nothing to stabilize the country during a time of political transition.

And that’s just at home. Abroad, the consequences of the US repositioning continue to reverberate across the region. Small powers like the Philippines, reassured about American support, are challenging Chinese claims in the South China Sea. Japan is taking a more stridently anti-Chinese line. The defection of Burma from its Chinese connection gains momentum every day as Japan, India, Australia and the EU all join the US in welcoming the junta into the global economy. China’s one remaining ally, North Korea, remains a serious liability as its provocations and threats drive countries like South Korea and Japan closer to Washington.


The combination of internal and external pressure is severe and has the government in Beijing under more pressure than many observers grasp. Abandoning the policy of “peaceful rise” is looking more and more like a grave strategic error; much now depends on what lessons Beijing draws from a humiliating succession of high profile setbacks in Asia.
(lesson=Wise guy eat Crow)
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Suraj »

The Peaceful Rise doctrine of Hu's was a nonstarter. The very implication of that doctrine was 'everybody, stand aside peacefully while we rise'. For some reason they assumed that was a viable doctrine. Hu is facing the last few months of his reign with both his domestic (Harmonious Society) and external foreign policy (Peaceful Rise) doctrines in tatters.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by brihaspati »

Jhujar wrote
India climbdown may help China border dispute
Whoever suggests "give and take" in territory with China, is suggesting treason. At most one can suggest taking territory from China, but not giving it. A la Jahangir - "it is all right to take from them/but not giving to them".

There are three clear requirements from China : that it moves away from Indian territory it occupies, that it accepts Tibet as an independent nation, that it hands over its bases around India in IOR, to India.

If China finds any of these requirements impossible to fulfill, that is their problem. India as a nation is not defined by ex-army commanders or China experts of a certain historical period. Even if such characters suggest things in their good heartedness, a future India will be under no obligation to continue implementation of such suggestions.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RajeshA »

If GoI is floating these balloons then Indians need to come out strongly against it and start calling them traitors head on, publicly and forcefully, otherwise GoI would see the silence as acceptance by Indians.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by merlin »

RajeshA wrote:If GoI is floating these balloons then Indians need to come out strongly against it and start calling them traitors head on, publicly and forcefully, otherwise GoI would see the silence as acceptance by Indians.
You want the Indian sheeple to protest? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Prem »

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... _for_china
April Is the Cruelest Month … for ChinaBeijing's leaders are finding out the hard way that being a superpower isn't all it's cracked up to be.
For China's cautious leadership, no news is good news -- and this has been a bad month. Rising tensions with the Philippines in the South China Seas have reached a point that Beijing has deployed ships. The ceasefire in Syria seems to be fraying -- again. Sudan and South Sudan are again engaged in armed conflict. And the United States, whose decline the Chinese leadership continues to trumpet, continues to pivot closer to Asia and is on the brink of dispatching an ambassador to Burma. The only good news seems to be North Korea's failed rocket launch. ... What is most threatening to Chinese leaders, however, is the scandal of deposed Chongqing Party Secretary Bo Xilai, arguably the biggest domestic political crisis in China since 1989. The year 2012 appears unlikely to play out at home or abroad the way the Chinese leadership had hoped -- with a smooth political succession underscoring China's rise to a global power. The state media directives of the past week suggest the Communist Party is scrambling to impose a return to normalcy; it's likely that the government will be very risk-averse in the coming months as it tries to contain the fallout from Bo's ouster.
More diverse actors, too, are pressuring Beijing on human rights issues. Just in the past month, China has had to contend with pressure closer to home: In early April, Japanese Diet members adopted a highly unusual resolution on Tibet calling for the Chinese government to resume talks with the Dalai Lama. Beijing also found itself forced to respond to critical South Korean press reports that China had forcibly repatriated North Koreans; in response, Beijing allowed a handful of North Koreans sheltered in the South Korean consulates in China to depart for SeoulMany of the voices in China who could suggest an alternate course have been muzzled. It remains difficult for the Chinese media to press its government to act more responsibly internationally. According to the domestic press, the Philippines is the aggressor in the South China Seas skirmishes; China remains a "firm advocate of peace" in Syria and has "made unremitting efforts" to "resolve the current crisis," while the London Book Fair "opens a new chapter in nation's cultural exchange." There is precious little discussion of the occupation of the Quito Embassy or of the Japanese resolution on Tibet. Weibo and other online platforms provide an opportunity for some to debate these issues, suggesting healthy domestic interest in foreign policy. And even in state media, cracks are beginning to show: After an unprecedented evacuation of more than 35,000 Chinese people from Libya, critiques were published suggesting that the government had failed citizens overseas. But this remains a far cry from allowing -- or soliciting -- broad public input on policy.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by ramana »

I got this from Ram Narayanan's mailing list
Dear Ramana:

Mr. B Raman concludes his essay as follows:

"We must remember : If there is another limited border war with China imposed on us by Beijing, the US will have no role in helping us. We have to fight and win the war alone. Are we in a position to do so?"

A QUESTION: Is it really in America’s vital interest to do nothing if China attacks India?

Ram Narayanan
US-India Friendship
http://www.usindiafriendship.net/


http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers ... r5014.html

SOUTH ASIA ANALYSIS GROUP

Paper no 5014
21-April-2012

OUR CHINA-CENTRIC MILITARY CAPABILITY

By B.Raman

We don’t need Agni-V, the intermediate range ballistic missile that we successfully tested on April 19,2012, to give ourselves a deterrent capability against Pakistan. We need it only for a deterrent capability against China.

2. Agni-V is a Chinese-centric missile. The Chinese rightly know it and would be evaluating any changes required in their defence strategy vis-à-vis India in the light of India having at its disposal a missile capable of hitting targets in mainland China, including Beijing. The operational missiles that we have at our disposal now are in a position to successfully target Chinese-occupied Tibet and Western China such as Sichuan, which are not yet economically as developed as Eastern China. Once Agni V becomes operational, India should be in a position to target those parts of Eastern China on which its economic prosperity depends.

3. China’s plans to protect itself against a possible Indian missile strike have to cover the whole of China, instead of only Western China as it is till now. Our intelligence agencies have to be on the look-out for indications of Chinese thinking on this subject. :mrgreen:

4. While we are now in a strategically better position to protect ourselves against China by discouraging Chinese temptations to intimidate us with its missile capability, this does not mean that our capability to protect ourselves tactically against China will improve with the induction of Agni V into our arsenal. :((

5. Our ability to protect ourselves tactically will depend on our conventional capability to deter a surprise Chinese strike across the Himalayas to occupy areas---particularly in Arunachal Pradesh which it describes as southern Tibet--- that it claims as its territory.

6. During the last 10 years, the entire Chinese military planning vis-à-vis India has been focussed on giving itself such a surprise strike capability. Its improvement of its road and rail networks in Western China, particularly in Tibet, its attempts for road-rail connectivity with Nepal, Myanmar and Bangladesh, its improvement of its air bases in Chinese-occupied Tibet and live firing air exercises in Tibet are part of its plans to strengthen its surprise strike capability.

7. Our Army did badly in the 1962 Sino-Indian war not because it was a bad fighting force, but because our policy-makers had not given it the required capability to neutralise a Chinese surprise strike. If you do not give the Army the required capability, you cannot blame it for doing badly. :rotfl:

{1962 was a political failure on part of GOI. The Army did not fare badly. By the time of Battle of Chusul it was ready to give back what it got. The GOI developed cold feet and did not use all the resources at its disposal. IAF Hunters were flying sorties but never got the orders to engage! In three years the Indian armed forces gave a resolute repsone to TSP in 1965 war. A defeated army doesnt come back so quick. Look at US after Vietnam in 1975. It took them two decades to be able to take on Grenada!

Oh by the way Int Bureau failed miserably in 1962 and had to be split in 1968}


8.Have we now learnt the right lessons from history and given the Army the capability to blunt a surprise Chinese strike and throw them back after inflicting a prohibitive cost on them? Unless we confront the Chinese with the prospects of a prohibitive cost and outcome if they indulge in a surprise strike as they did in 1962, the temptation on their part to launch a surprise strike, if they lose patience with the border talks, will remain. :((

9. While we are steadily closing the gaps in our strategic military capabilities with China, the gaps in our tactical capabilities remain and need to be identified and redressed. In our euphoria over the successful Agni V test, we should not lose sight of the continuing gaps in tactical capabilities and the need to close them.

10. The tactical situation that we face today is less favourable than what the Chinese face. In 1962, China had no military relationship worth the name with Pakistan. Today, China has a multi-dimensional military relationship with Pakistan, much of it focussed around the Gilgit-Baltistan axis. In 1962, China had no military-related presence in our periphery. Today, it has in Myanmar, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. In 1962, we didn’t have to worry about the Chinese Air Force and Navy. Today, we have to.

11. In 1962, the war plans of the Chinese Air Force were largely focussed on Taiwan. Today, there are indications of a partial shifting of the thinking of their Air Force towards India. In 1962, they had no Navy worth the name. Today, they have a Navy increasingly capable of operations in the Indian Ocean.

12. It is my assessment that if the Chinese mount a surprise tactical strike across the Himalayas now, it will be a joint Army-Air force operation. It will be a lightning strike designed to satisfy their territorial objectives in the shortest possible time without running the risk of a prolonged war. :rotfl: The role of their Navy will be insignificant for some years to come. :rotfl:

13. We have to have a multi-pronged strategy designed to enable us to pre-empt a tactical Chinese strike with the co-operation of our Tibetan friends and to blunt their strike and throw them back if pre-emption fails. Such a strategy would call for better intelligence collection, better road-rail-air connectivity to the border areas, more well-equipped bases near the border from where our Army and Air Force can operate and a better logistics trail well-tested during peace time.

14. We have already taken steps towards giving shape to such a multi-pronged strategy in the Himalayan area, but the progress in implementation has been slow. Our policy-makers should pay urgent attention to this. Our strategic and tactical thinking continues to be largely Pakistan-centric.

15. Whatever Chinese-centric thinking there has been is largely in the context of our power projection with US blessing. We must remember : If there is another limited border war with China imposed on us by Beijing, the US will have no role in helping us. We have to fight and win the war alone. Are we in a position to do so?

( The writer is Additional Secretary (retd), Cabinet Secretariat, Govt. of India, New Delhi, and, presently, Director, Institute For Topical Studies, Chennai, and Associate of the Chennai Centre For China Studies. E-mail: [email protected] Twitter : @SORBONNE75)
A very scare mongering article after A5 success. The very reason for the A5 is to prevent such adventures as there is now escalation control with India. Earlier it was all one sided.

The US even in 1962 did not help India. On the contrary it advised grounding the IAF which was India's advantage for their own reasons. The IAF would have given a wallop to the PLA and enabled the IA to recover the territory and PRC would have been sulking like it is now after A5 test. And India was always on its own.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by svinayak »

But what Raman says is true. It will take some more deterrance and tactical strategy to keep the PRC under control
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Christopher Sidor »

ramana wrote:I got this from Ram Narayanan's mailing list
Dear Ramana:

Mr. B Raman concludes his essay as follows:

"We must remember : If there is another limited border war with China imposed on us by Beijing, the US will have no role in helping us. We have to fight and win the war alone. Are we in a position to do so?"

A QUESTION: Is it really in America’s vital interest to do nothing if China attacks India?

Ram Narayanan
US-India Friendship
http://www.usindiafriendship.net/


http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers ... r5014.html

SOUTH ASIA ANALYSIS GROUP

Paper no 5014
21-April-2012

OUR CHINA-CENTRIC MILITARY CAPABILITY

By B.Raman

....
....
....
( The writer is Additional Secretary (retd), Cabinet Secretariat, Govt. of India, New Delhi, and, presently, Director, Institute For Topical Studies, Chennai, and Associate of the Chennai Centre For China Studies. E-mail: [email protected] Twitter : @SORBONNE75)
A very scare mongering article after A5 success. The very reason for the A5 is to prevent such adventures as there is now escalation control with India. Earlier it was all one sided.

The US even in 1962 did not help India. On the contrary it advised grounding the IAF which was India's advantage for their own reasons. The IAF would have given a wallop to the PLA and enabled the IA to recover the territory and PRC would have been sulking like it is now after A5 test. And India was always on its own.
I agree with you completely. All US did in 1962 was offer no help materially. They did make some proper noises, but that was it. But the fact that Nehru had to write a letter to America, a country which was vilified by his government's envoys in practically every foreign fora, is in itself an eye opener.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RajeshA »

Published on Apr 21, 2012
Other nations must take stand on China: Philippines: AFP
The Philippine foreign secretary called on other nations to take a stand on China's new aggressiveness in a simmering territorial dispute over a shoal in the South China Sea.

Albert del Rosario on Sunday warned in a statement that other nations would be affected by China's claim over the mineral-rich area if they did not speak up now, like the Philippines is doing.

"Since the freedom of navigation and unimpeded commerce in the (South China Sea) are of great import to many nations, all should consider what China is endeavouring to do in the Scarborough Shoal," del Rosario said.

"All, not just the Philippines will be ultimately negatively affected if we do not take a stand," he said in an SMS message sent to reporters.

He added that China's efforts to claim the entire South China Sea as its territory was "clearly baseless."

The statement came amid increased tensions after China deployed ships near the Scarborough Shoal, an outcropping in the South China Sea just about 230 kilometres (140 miles) from the Philippines' main island of Luzon.

The nearest Chinese land mass from Scarborough Shoal is Hainan province, 1,200 kilometres, (750 miles) to the northwest, according to Philippine naval maps given to the media.

China claims all of the South China Sea as its own on historical grounds, even waters approaching the coasts of the Philippines and other Southeast Asian countries.

The rival claims have been a source of regional tensions for decades, and the Philippines as well as Vietnam have accused China over the past year of becoming increasingly aggressive in asserting its position.

The latest flare-up occurred on April 8 when the Philippines found the eight Chinese fishing boats at Scarborough Shoal, and sent its warship to arrest the crew.

China quickly deployed three civilian maritime vessels that took turns in blocking the warship.

In a bid to calm the situation, the Philippines pulled back its warship and replaced it with a coast guard vessel and the fishing vessels later sailed away.

However China has refused to withdraw its ships unless the Philippine coast guard vessel retreats first. Two Chinese fisheries ships are now in a standoff with a lone Philippine coast guard vessel at the shoal.

The Philippines has been actively urging its fellow members of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations to take a firmer stance on China's claim over the South China Sea.
It is time to create a more broader Asian "dialogue" grouping consisting of India, Japan, South Korea?, Vietnam and Philippines. Perhaps Japan would like to also invest in naval shipbuilding capacity in India.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Suraj »

The verbal prose doesn't describe just how patently absurd the Chinese claim lines in the South China Sea are:
Image
They basically claim everything upto everyone else's shores. Historical reasons, my a** . I think they're doing a very good job of making enemies. They have at best a partial claim on Parcels based on 200nm EEZ, and no claim on Scarborough Shoal or the Spratlys.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by svinayak »

The logic is that if they own the Spratlys islands then the shores and economic zone from the Islands are also claimed by PRC. So it is very important to show that these Islands are not owned by PRC but by the various ASEAN countries.
Physical control is very important.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by pankajs »

The absurdity of the Chinese claims in Indo-China sea is fundamentally good for us and the timing of the aggressive push is heaven sent. The concept of face in the Chinese culture will not allow them to back down from their declared position but it will continue to fuel distrust amongst its neighbors and make these small nations seek partners (Mainly US) outside the region.

If the region remains on boil at the right temperature, it will suck in considerable political, diplomatic, military and economic capital. This may help us, to the extent it will draw resources that may otherwise have been deployed against us. Perhaps China has reached the inflection point.

It will take us up to 20 years for to have at least 3 SSBN's packing 12+ 10k km A5/6/7/ SLBM's.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by shyamd »

Its important for them I think because of supply lines being easily choked off by a number of nations. I have a feeling that PRC will eventually seize some of the islands if these ASEAN countries are not careful and perhaps if there is internal problems in Philipines or Vietnam. So bringing in the US to have a base there is a good idea for them. India also getting basing right is a good idea, pretty soon we will see a naval base in the SE Asia over time. A&N command is already getting expeditionary capability (tanks troops front line aircraft submarine base amphibous capabilities) and is the first tri forces command.

India will be at the centre of a NATO type organisation there soon. ASEAN should join together to face the greater external threats if PRC continues. India should get diplomatically active and try and help some of the intergration, joint trianing between all the forces. Invite all of the ASEAN nations for military exercises in the NE, changing annually to each country. Start small and build a joint command force in Vietnam with ASEAN country troops stationed there - initially to send a message to PRC. Build it up if PRC continues to misbehave.

Plenty of options for the decision maker, but A&N Command gives us good capability to do a lot of things.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by pankajs »

shyamd wrote:Its important for them I think because of supply lines being easily choked off by a number of nations. I have a feeling that PRC will eventually seize some of the islands if these ASEAN countries are not careful and perhaps if there is internal problems in Philipines or Vietnam. So bringing in the US to have a base there is a good idea for them. India also getting basing right is a good idea, pretty soon we will see a naval base in the SE Asia over time. A&N command is already getting expeditionary capability (tanks troops front line aircraft submarine base amphibous capabilities) and is the first tri forces command.

India will be at the centre of a NATO type organisation there soon. ASEAN should join together to face the greater external threats if PRC continues. India should get diplomatically active and try and help some of the intergration, joint trianing between all the forces. Invite all of the ASEAN nations for military exercises in the NE, changing annually to each country. Start small and build a joint command force in Vietnam with ASEAN country troops stationed there - initially to send a message to PRC. Build it up if PRC continues to misbehave.

Plenty of options for the decision maker, but A&N Command gives us good capability to do a lot of things.
Yes, Philippines could lease out one of the disputed islands in the Spratlys group to the US. If nothing else, it will signify acceptance of PH's claim by the US, at least on some of the islands. It will put US bang in the middle of the dispute. If you are going to loose the islands anyway, better to lose them to US than to China.
All the above assuming US is willing to be pulled into the center rather than staying on the periphery of the dispute, the islands provide enough land for a base and have a good harbor.

Japan too has got active, doling out cash to the mekong delta countries and writing off all the debt owed by Burma.

So a lot of activity on the periphery of PRC. Interesting times ahead!
Prem
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Prem »

China Pushing Back After US Backs Philippines
http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/ ... ilippines/
As a dispatch by Reuters points out, the state of play in Asia is a little grimmer today; the Chinese military is warning that recent US policy moves could lead to war. An article published in the Liberation Army Daily, the mouthpiece of the China’s powerful army, wrote that“Anyone with clear eyes saw long ago that behind these drills is reflected a mentality that will lead the South China Sea issue down a fork in the road towards military confrontation and resolution through armed force…”The article goes on to denounce the US-Philippine naval exercises in the South China Sea and warns the US against further “meddling” in the region:Through this kind of meddling and intervention, the United States will only stir up the entire South China Sea situation towards increasing chaos, and this will inevitably have a massive impact on regional peace and stability.
In the past, this bureau has sometimes been responsible for actions that China’s neighbors have seen as extremely provocative in the long running disputes between China and other countries in the area. Western diplomats in China have expressed concern that at times this bureau seems to take actions that have serious international repercussions on its own, consulting at most with the Ministry of Defense and without prior approval or even knowledge of senior government officials — including those in the Foreign Ministry. Some China watchers go so far as to compare these actions to those of the Japanese armed forces in the years before World War Two, when the military took actions in Asia designed to force the hands of civilian policymakers back in Tokyo.The strong emotional response of Chinese nationalist opinion to clashes in the South China Sea can create serious problems for those Chinese policymakers who think the country’s interests are best served by avoiding polarizing conflicts with the neighbors. Fear of China caused by these incidents has led virtually all of China’s neighbors, from Korea to Vietnam and beyond, to welcome stepped up US diplomatic and military engagement in the region.Coming at a time when Chinese civil-military relations are under intense scrutiny (ousted Chongqing leader Bo Xilai enjoyed great popularity in military circles), signs that the military wants to push back against the recent upsurge in US regional activism are more significant than usual. The Chinese military has supported civilian authorities in their crackdown on Bo Xilai; it is much more concerned about the direction of Chinese foreign policy and remains deeply committed to the defense of what it sees as China’s legitimate and vital territorial claims in the waters offshore.Those claims directly conflict not only with the territorial claims of important US allies; they clash with the US commitment to free navigation of sea lanes that play a vital role in international commerce. From the time of the Quasi-War with France, the conflict with the Barbary Pirates and the War of 1812, freedom of the seas has been the issue that most frequently drawn the US into international conflicts.
Prem
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Prem »

Poaq-Naak or Noak Poaq, one and the same Joke.
http://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-north-k ... 07324.html
Exclusive: North Korea's nuclear test ready "soon"
BEIJING (Reuters) - North Korea has almost completed preparations for a third nuclear test, a senior source with close ties to Pyongyang and Beijing said, an act that would draw further international condemnation following a failed rocket launch.The isolated and impoverished state sacrificed the chance of closer ties with the United States when it launched the long-range rocket .on April 13 and was censured by the U.N. Security Council, which includes the North's sole major ally, China.Critics say the rocket launch was aimed at honing the North's ability to develop an intercontinental ballistic missile capable of hitting the United States, a move that would dramatically increase its military and diplomatic heft.ow the North appears to be about to carry out a third nuclear test after two in 2006 and 2009."Soon. Preparations are almost complete," the source told Reuters when asked whether North Korea was planning to conduct a nuclear test.This is the first time a senior official has confirmed the planned test and the source has correctly predicted events in the past, telling Reuters about the 2006 test days before it happened.
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