Bharat Rakshak

Consortium of Indian Defence Websites
It is currently 18 May 2013 20:04

All times are UTC + 5:30 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2743 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012 08:14 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Posts: 7745
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar
^^ Dont we manufacture parachutes in-house nowadays?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012 09:32 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Posts: 25446
Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
well they to all intents and purposes are indian citizens. all the folks currently in SFF would have been born in India during the 80s and 90s.

parachutes - I thought so too. but perhaps some uber long range parachutes meant to permit silent flights of upto 50km are imported from switzerland onree.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012 13:01 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Posts: 4815
Location: Jatland
True words, hnair sahab....as it is, we use them as and when required from Golden Temple to Siachen to 1971 to Kargil


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012 14:07 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Posts: 7745
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar
^^ Didn't a recent article on SFF( cant recall which but read it on BRF, IMO) mention that it is almost entirely Indian now ( staffed with Gurkhas and Paharis) and there are miniscule number of Tibetians left?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012 14:25 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Posts: 4815
Location: Jatland
please to ask suryaullah what thag means and about what?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012 14:58 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 25 Oct 2009 23:05
Posts: 621
Location: The Original West Coast!!
+1 to rohit. let's not go up the beaten path again!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012 17:49 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 20 Jul 2006 06:01
Posts: 740
self-delete


Last edited by ParGha on 14 Mar 2012 18:21, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012 18:17 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31
Posts: 4272
Ok - we should follow what the rest of the army follows

Whether you are a SF hotshot, a Lt General in some part of Army HQ - you do not get to step into SFF, Vikas regmt etc unless cleared by the right folks.

many a publicity loving General has been turned back politely.

so we should apply it to ourselves :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012 20:03 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Posts: 1469
ManuT wrote:
...Raised with the help of the CIA post-1962, it is a Special Forces unit almost the size of an army division and headed by a Major General on deputation. At the time of the procurement it was headed by Major General Dalbir Singh who has subsequently moved on to the North-East on promotion to command an army Corps....


Gen Dalbir Singh is next in line after Lt Gen Bikram Singh for COAS


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012 20:05 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Posts: 25446
Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
I hope there is some meat and heft behind this self-declared secretiveness.

whatever it is , it has to deliver when we need it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012 20:18 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Posts: 1469
ManuT wrote:
...while a Spanish company emerged as the front-runner for a western aircraft that is currently used by the SFFF. Both put together, the initial purchase was to be of 300 parachutes followed by larger orders to equip the whole force. Each parachute costs about Rs1.25 lakh....


The western aircraft being the C-130?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012 20:42 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Posts: 25446
Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
the price looks right. the kind of parachutes used by SF to fly for tens of km (flying wing really) cost upward of $2000 everyone one looks
http://www.skydivestore.com/getcanopies ... n~Canopies

the round parachutes which are non steerable probably cost less and depend on drop pilots accuracy and speed.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012 20:49 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31
Posts: 4272
Dalbir Singh would be a very interesting chief
based on his background

Our Friend Vyas had some observations :) :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012 22:39 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 03 Jun 2008 11:20
Posts: 1537
Location: India
Surya wrote:
Dalbir Singh would be a very interesting chief
based on his background

Our Friend Vyas had some observations :) :wink:

Here: viewtopic.php?t=321


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2012 23:17 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31
Posts: 4272
thanks DMurphy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2012 01:08 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 02 Mar 2008 21:10
Posts: 928
Surya wrote:
Dalbir Singh would be a very interesting chief
based on his background

Our Friend Vyas had some observations :) :wink:


IC 26279 Maj Gen Dalvir Singh, GOC Kilo Force in 2002, who took part in the IPKF operation as Lt Col Dalvir Singh CO 10 Para SF in 1987-88

http://www.indianparachuteregiment.kar. ... heroes.htm

http://pib.nic.in/archieve/lreleng/lyr2 ... 20022.html

is different from

IC 30351 Lt Gen Dalbir Singh, of Fifth Gorkha Rifles, former IG SFF, presently GOC 3 Corps and presumably in the line to become COAS.

http://www.morungexpress.com/regional/63470.html

http://www.indianarmy.gov.in/Site/FormT ... dsRyEsjw==


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2012 05:11 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31
Posts: 4272
Thanks nelson

the former would be more interesting to watch


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2012 09:17 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Posts: 4815
Location: Jatland
Hmmmm......Gorkhas and SFF (Vikas/Archers) seem to have long relationship which continues to this day.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2012 19:33 
Offline
BRFite -Trainee

Joined: 07 Mar 2009 18:47
Posts: 100
Surya wrote:
Thanks nelson

the former would be more interesting to watch


Hi Surya,

Wouldn't the former, i.e.IC 26279 Maj Gen Dalvir Singh, have retired by now, since he was a Maj. Gen in 2002? I found a reference to Lt. Gen. Dalvir Singh on the net, but nothing on whether he is serving or retired.

Best.
Ashutosh


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2012 21:28 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31
Posts: 4272
ashutosh

I would not know - I think Nelson or one of the others are better on this.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2012 21:46 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 22 Apr 2005 23:50
Posts: 571
Some of the responses have in turn raised more questions. Panzers held under the direct control of the "dear leader" was one of the factors on D-day. Not averse to a little premium as long as there is no down time.

Aditya ji
The article caught my eye a is something which caught my eye and decided to post. I can barely claim any insight or credit.

Like Singha ji, now going to pray that goods are in place. OM.


Last edited by ManuT on 16 Mar 2012 08:56, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2012 23:40 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 18 Oct 2005 01:38
Posts: 10652
Singha wrote:
RAW comes under home ministry and not the army right? imo its high time this force be absorbed into the army and infact form the core of one of the new mountain strike divisions, with every member being uniquely para certified. kind of like the 1st airborne division concept adapted to the mountains.

that would be far better use than sitting under RAW.


Saar the SFF is not meant for use as elite infantry or para-qualified infantry like our non-SF para battalions - SFF are special forces in every sense of the word. They have been (mis)used as infantry during '71 though.

The parachute scandal story sounds like a bit of BS on the face of it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2012 09:28 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Posts: 25446
Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
if they are SF all the better - it means we already have around 7 normal paraSF batallions and this nearly division sized force allegedly.

time for the drums of war. time for desi-JSOC !! each of the mountain zones can have some dedicated batallions of SFF for SF duty under desi JSOC. now that we have C130J (hope for more) / An32upg and lots of Dhruv and Mi17V we can finally get them where they need to be.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2012 22:39 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 16 Nov 2011 22:31
Posts: 1492
Location: Jambudveepe Bharatvarshe, Bharatkhande, Sakabde, Mero Dakshine Parsve
The scary part first. Brit in the video mentions 'Coalition forces' in the context of joint COIN ops with Indians.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pB8j5IOGzw

The following is what I found strange. If some better informed member can help me understand why the people are doing the way they are doing it in these videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5lIZYNt ... re=related
All Indian SF run fast towards first available cover at the same time and at the top of their capability
Then all begin to slow down at about half the distance to nearest cover. Could this cause the whole
team to expose themselves to risk all at the same time and everybody reaches the safe point at the
same time. Also at no point are they in any position to shoot while moving forward. Their positioning
to bring down fire on the opponent is very small because of this form of advance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzXE6__hbgM
here the first few minutes of video shows how people move in with the advantage of fire cover with
least amount of exposure. But the single file advance may have its own problems. The opponent
has to set aim with minimal amount of change while the SF team members in the back of the file
cannot bring to bear their own firepower. Once they down the door and enter one at a time, again
the cover is not there. Team is relying only on the speed of ingress. However once inside they are
fast at covering all points of the imaginary room.


Also I like the fact that we have different types of schools for training SF for different purposes with SF guys getting some great exposure both within and outside India.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2012 23:40 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46
Posts: 1380
Raja Bose wrote:
Saar the SFF is not meant for use as elite infantry or para-qualified infantry like our non-SF para battalions - SFF are special forces in every sense of the word. They have been (mis)used as infantry during '71 though.


I think the American designation 'Special Operations Capable' might be more fitting than Special Forces. While the SFF is no doubt composed of crack troops, the recruitment isn't as selective as the Army SF or Marcos. Also AFAIK intensive training for more unconventional tasks particularly CT and HRT is restricted to the SG.

Where the expansion of the Para SF in recent years has come in for some criticism for supposed dilution of standards, its not practical to expect more from an organisation that had a strength of 10,000 men when even the IA had only three sanctioned Para Cdo battalions.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2012 00:40 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 22 Apr 2005 23:50
Posts: 571
Skydiver Felix Baumgartner on track for super jump

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17399985

Quote:
Austrian skydiver Felix Baumgartner is well on the way to setting a world record for the highest free-fall jump.

On Thursday, the adventurer leapt from a balloon-borne capsule 71,500ft (22km) above New Mexico, landing safely eight minutes later.

The dive was intended to test all his equipment before he tries to free-fall from 120,000ft later this year.

In doing so, he would better the mark of 102,800ft set by US Air Force Colonel Joe Kittinger in 1960.


Wave of the future?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2012 01:40 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28
Posts: 9107
Location: Cave of the Saffron Bandits
ravi - did you notice how the jeeps also went full speed and then seemed to slow down?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2012 20:51 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 16 Nov 2011 22:31
Posts: 1492
Location: Jambudveepe Bharatvarshe, Bharatkhande, Sakabde, Mero Dakshine Parsve
Lalmohan ji, you are right. In which case the whole video lead by Maroof Raza could be more like Dikhane ke Daant.

But then while watching these SF videos what I have come to notice is that endurance and individual shooting is something that these guys are demonstrating quite effortlessly. The thing that gladdens my heard the most is the choice of 7.62 ki goli in the open areas by the SF guys in the video.

The slithering in some other Marcos video was also quite smooth and greatly impressive for a layman like me.

We Indians miss out on some good learning because our media will generally supply only the Dikhane ke Daant. Now people like me are forced to take vicarious pleasure in SAS videos on the net, which I find much more instructive.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2012 01:20 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 08 Jan 2010 02:42
Posts: 283
ravi_g wrote:
We Indians miss out on some good learning because our media will generally supply only the Dikhane ke Daant. Now people like me are forced to take vicarious pleasure in SAS videos on the net, which I find much more instructive.
What are you hoping to learn? All videos everywhere are meant for show ultimately. Otherwise we'd end up watching how people break their legs and backs while slithering.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2012 01:49 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 18 Oct 2005 01:38
Posts: 10652
Viv S wrote:
I think the American designation 'Special Operations Capable' might be more fitting than Special Forces. While the SFF is no doubt composed of crack troops, the recruitment isn't as selective as the Army SF or Marcos. Also AFAIK intensive training for more unconventional tasks particularly CT and HRT is restricted to the SG.

Where the expansion of the Para SF in recent years has come in for some criticism for supposed dilution of standards, its not practical to expect more from an organisation that had a strength of 10,000 men when even the IA had only three sanctioned Para Cdo battalions.


Saar, the term Special Operations Capable is a pretty vague one - in the US it might have come up based on specifics of their interoperability and ofcourse internal Pentagon politics. SOC usually will imply that the unit is infantry which can undertake some SF type work during war.

Whether a unit is Special Forces or not ultimately depends on the task for which they were formed. The selectivity of admission is a subjective criteria since that varies across various SF units again based on their requirements. There is really no hard set threshold of selectivity which characterizes a unit as SF or not. In case of the SFF, their regular roles and tasks right from their formation have been consistent with those of special forces - SG has a more CI/HRT focus but that is only a part of a typical SF unit's responsibilities (lot of SF units don't even have that role).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 21:38 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Posts: 1469
FYI

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/46810306/Sp ... he-secrets

Quote:
Special Frontier Force---unveiling the secrets.


(72 pages PDF - locked for free users)

http://bhavanajagat.com/2010/04/03/awar ... r-of-1971/

Quote:
Image

MS-8466 CAPTAIN. R. Rudra Narasimham, Army Medical Corps/Short Service Regular Commission. During the Indo-Pak War of 1971, the Special Frontier Force under the Command of Major General Sujan Singh Uban conducted an independent military operation called Operation Eagle in The Chittagong Hill Tracts. This Op Eagle was planned and executed by Indian Prime Minister Srimati Indira Gandhi. Brigadier T S Oberoi was the Commander at the Force Headquarters in the operational area. Including myself, a total of six Medical Officers took part in this military operation. Four of us were recommended to recieve Service Awards. Major PCM Mehta, Surgical Specialist, Dr. Major(Honorary) Ramesh Chandra, the Senior Medical Officer, Captain Ashok Kumar Jaiswal, Unit Medical Officer of the Unit commanded by Lieutenant Colonel Prasanta Coomar Purkayastha of Garhwal Rifles had received Visisht Seva Medals as recommended. I was the only Medical Officer who was recommended the award of Vir Chakra. Major General Sujan Singh Uban, Brigadier TS Oberoi, Lieutenant Colonel B K Narayan, the Regiment of Artillery Officer who was my Unit Commander, and all others know the reasons as to why I was recommended to receive the gallantry award of Vir Chakra and not some other award like Visisht Seva Medal which the other three Medical Officers had received.Prime Minister Indira Gandhi's military operation known as Operation Eagle 1971 delivered the first blow in the Chittagong Hill Tracts and initiated the Liberation of Bangladesh.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 22:22 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31
Posts: 4272
good grief :eek:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2012 19:51 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Posts: 1469
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/inte ... 83702.html

Quote:
...

Since July 2011, commandos of the National Security Guard (NSG) have been conducting drills by touching down at critical installations aboard specially hired civilian aircraft to gauge their reaction time. Among the sites the NSG has covered are the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) project in Visakhapatnam, which it accesses from its regional hub in Hyderabad, and the Reliance Jamnagar refinery that the security agency reaches from its new set-up in Mumbai.

...


Why civilian planes? Can we not arrange for IAF aircraft to reach the airport faster than NSG takes to reach from base camp? I find it hard to believe.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2012 20:08 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 14 Dec 2010 17:34
Posts: 293
Location: Classified
I think this is because sanctioning of planes specially for the NSG will be delayed because of red tape.and using civillian planes is better than no planes at all.Although I hope this is only an interim solution,hope they get planes specially for them or have the power to requisition them on priority basis.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2012 20:19 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 14 Dec 2010 17:34
Posts: 293
Location: Classified
I have a question,why are personnel of the ITBP used to provide security to Indian consulates abroad ?Also I had read that personnel of ITBP are trained in urban warfare and are refered to as elite commandos.I thought the ITBP was raised to guard the icy border and they specialise in high altitude warfare.Why are they being used in urban combat situations,can't other agencies be used for this ?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2012 20:23 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58
Posts: 1357
ravi_g wrote:
The scary part first. Brit in the video mentions 'Coalition forces' in the context of joint COIN ops with Indians.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pB8j5IOGzw

The following is what I found strange. If some better informed member can help me understand why the people are doing the way they are doing it in these videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5lIZYNt ... re=related
All Indian SF run fast towards first available cover at the same time and at the top of their capability
Then all begin to slow down at about half the distance to nearest cover. Could this cause the whole
team to expose themselves to risk all at the same time and everybody reaches the safe point at the
same time. Also at no point are they in any position to shoot while moving forward. Their positioning
to bring down fire on the opponent is very small because of this form of advance.

Also I like the fact that we have different types of schools for training SF for different purposes with SF guys getting some great exposure both within and outside India.



Why are you getting worried about something so obvious - these people are moving and firing. Common sense suggests aimed fire is done when the gun hand is stable and is anydays better than firing at speed and missing (unless you want to suppress the target - for which normally one more person or two - part of the suppressive fire team will be providing overwatch, but these people are the assault team).

And aimed fire or any fire is best done when under cover as versus firing from the open (unless circumstances demand it). Which means, these people, the assault team - as the videos show - are running towards cover, slowing down when approaching it, as they don't want to smack into cover, and at the same time, aiming carefully at the target and firing.

Its just common sense and logic. Its the same when firing from a vehicle. Go & ask any armoured corp guy about firing from move and firing from standstill. In the days before the Arjun/T-90, firing on the move meant really bad Pks. The weapons platform was not stabilized at the level of todays platforms. So again, slow down, take aim, fire. And then move again.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2012 20:33 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Posts: 25446
Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
a thing I see in the youtube video of the OBL compound raid and again in the assault teams shown in the seal movie "act of valor" is now SLOWLY and DELIBERATELY the assault teams move , and never fire on full auto either. its almost like walking but in a planned teamworkish way. none of the arnie / SWAT style running around, gun on full auto, attempting to complete the assignment in quick time...except in cases of hostage rescue they probably they some time and move in slowly.
the only guys on full auto were a couple of people with SAW weapons and big box mags to provide fire along potential enemy escape routes.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2012 01:06 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Posts: 4815
Location: Jatland
^^^Bingo....fire control is one of the most important aspects. For a SF Team, it is important that a target/adversary is taken out in first instance - you see, time is critical for them and they cannot afford to get into lengthy firefights. The opponents need to be taken out in first contact. In case you remember, one of the main aspects of the skills displayed by the militants in 26/11 was fire-control/fire discipline - with one NSG officer saying that it was as good as theirs. If you see the video of Para(SF) in that Times Now episode on SF, you'll see the same deliberate movement and aiming and firing - again, bunch of controlled shots and no auto bang-bang.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2012 11:09 
Offline
BRF Oldie

Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Posts: 25446
Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
and they always shoot for the head using single or double shots. very deliberate movement and no shouting, no wasted efforts, no frantic shouting or spraying gunfire unless its covering fire.
voices calm like guys discussing the weather, not in heat of battle.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2012 23:50 
Offline
BRFite

Joined: 16 Nov 2011 22:31
Posts: 1492
Location: Jambudveepe Bharatvarshe, Bharatkhande, Sakabde, Mero Dakshine Parsve
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs6mds7j ... re=related

@Karan M, start at around 00:04 minutes. You will notice the difference between the two videos yourself. Maroof Raza video was more Rambo style. This one is absolutely perfect. And they are training for about 10 opponents. Notice how the 6 men team never risks more then two guys advancing, the ceaseless cover fire, how the two advancing men remain at just the right distance from each other as to not offer an easy target for a bunch of lesser trained opponents that they are most likely going to attack this way. Notice how the advance is taking perfect benefit of the heavy cover fire in the background.


For me the thing to be noted was the brief footage of the training for blade fight at 00:00:45 seconds (reminded me of Steven Segal movies). Notice the ceaselessness of attitude these guys are training for. Search for opening, attack, search, attack, search, attack. No defending, no blocking, all the while moving the hands to both confuse the opponent and to bring the weapon nearest to the point where a strike can be staged. Any non-SF guy from some other army would hate to be anywhere near.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 2743 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69  Next

All times are UTC + 5:30 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group