LCA News and Discussions

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shiv
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

Gurneesh and Indranilroy thanks. I have some doubts posted in the Off topic thread linked belo
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1256698
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by kuldipchager »

Rahul M Post subject: Re: LCA News and DiscussionsPosted: 17 Mar 2012 13:34


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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Singha »

I think you need to press the quote button in top right of that individual post.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Singha »

Singha wrote:I think you need to press the quote button in top right of that individual post.
like this?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by kuldipchager »

Thank you.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by koti »

I haven't seen the eject handle in LCA. Where is it located?
Or is it that all the Martin-Baker seats have the same configuration?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

I thought we are using our own (arde) ejection seat. Are we still using MB ejection seats for LSPs?
vic wrote:Further apart from AMCA we should plan for LCA Mark-3 (semi stealth like MAKO) with Kaveri-Snecma engine to cater for any delay in AMCA
+1. Actually the LCA-Mk3, should be a twin engine one - the same would suffice [ge/kaveri-snecma] to begin. Need the divertless inlets, perhaps variable internally with pak-fa like controls [also used for stealth deflections].

Need to concentrate on the tail signatures as well, as both pak-fa and raptor have left a big question on thermal signatures. there are some h20 based solution to chemical driven to reduce thermal radiations. one could also think about a regular exhausts with a missile warning sensor that immediately sprays water or has a retractable trailing pod to deceive the missile seeker at least 25-50ft behind.

retractable technology needed for refueling.

internal weapons bay and its designs, we need multiple prototypes here for various designs we can think off.

the ever needing AESA especially with local al/GaN modules, and specially train from the baseline spec of El/m 2052 variant.

moving away from delta config!

blended body, reduced rivets or advanced skin engineering, etc.

there is a ton of work on stealth that is needed. we need LCA Mk3 for that.

If GoI/MoD is not already budgeting for this, then ADA/DRDO is making a mistake. In addition, I want the word snecma removed from genuine kaveri, at any cost.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kanson »

Cain Marko wrote:Yeah, I thought of using those as markers as well but didn't know what distance exactly they were marking, even worse, they seemed non equidistant on google maps, so just went with runway stripes.
Thats becoz in some areas they are placed in alternate fashion on either side of the runway.

LCA take off happened between 2000 ft - 3000 ft. And I think ~750 meter figure might be accurate.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

http://maps.google.com/maps/place?ftid= ... CCA&dtab=2
Which markings CM, are you talking about?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Jayram »

Ok admittedly a very late question to the party but why does the LCA fuselage ride so high ? In other words why is the height from the main fuselage to the ground so high? Is it for weapons attachments clearance and mid line external drop tanks attachment only or something else? Once the wheels are retracted the plane is obviously a gorgeous looking bird but does look a shade ungainly on the ground in clean config.. Not that this matters at all but obviously some weight saving can be achieved by appropriately sizing the height of the undercarriage.. It could also be the height required to ensure the LCA does not do a tail scrape on landing but there could be other reasons as well that escape me..
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by srai »

koti wrote:Is there a possibility to modify LCA MkI into a MkII a/c later on?

The engine is heavier AFAIK but will this cost be prohibitive to do the modification?
F414 engine requires higher airflow, is heavier and bigger; hence, the LCA Mk2 version with changes to accommodate it. Plus, fuselage has been lengthened slightly.

IMO, instead of changing the F404 engine on LCA Mk1, if ADA could try to reduce its weight by 500kgs (or so) then the thrust with F404 will match with the original design parameters. Or for MLU, go with Kaveri JV (~90KN) which will be ready and inducted in time for Mk1 MLU in 2030.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Lalmohan »

Jayram wrote:Ok admittedly a very late question to the party but why does the LCA fuselage ride so high ? In other words why is the height from the main fuselage to the ground so high? Is it for weapons attachments clearance and mid line external drop tanks attachment only or something else? Once the wheels are retracted the plane is obviously a gorgeous looking bird but does look a shade ungainly on the ground in clean config.. Not that this matters at all but obviously some weight saving can be achieved by appropriately sizing the height of the undercarriage.. It could also be the height required to ensure the LCA does not do a tail scrape on landing but there could be other reasons as well that escape me..
uc height normally a function of attitude (angle) at take off and more so landing to give adequate clearance of tail
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by koti »

SaiK wrote: +1. Actually the LCA-Mk3, should be a twin engine one - the same would suffice [ge/kaveri-snecma] to begin. Need the divertless inlets, perhaps variable internally with pak-fa like controls [also used for stealth deflections].

Need to concentrate on the tail signatures as well, as both pak-fa and raptor have left a big question on thermal signatures. there are some h20 based solution to chemical driven to reduce thermal radiations. one could also think about a regular exhausts with a missile warning sensor that immediately sprays water or has a retractable trailing pod to deceive the missile seeker at least 25-50ft behind.

retractable technology needed for refueling.

internal weapons bay and its designs, we need multiple prototypes here for various designs we can think off.

the ever needing AESA especially with local al/GaN modules, and specially train from the baseline spec of El/m 2052 variant.

moving away from delta config!


blended body, reduced rivets or advanced skin engineering, etc.

there is a ton of work on stealth that is needed. we need LCA Mk3 for that.

If GoI/MoD is not already budgeting for this, then ADA/DRDO is making a mistake. In addition, I want the word snecma removed from genuine kaveri, at any cost.
All the blue points call for increased weight. There is no reason why the resultant bird should be in the LCA catagory, It better fits the MCA specs and that is what MCA is intended to be IMO.
moving away from delta config!
Why?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

AMCA is planned to have tail plus a larger clipped/shaped [may be more diamond-ish] wing delta.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Raja Bose »

Q.: Is the test pilot Gp Capt KK Venugopal the same person who did the 1st Saras test flight as Sqdn Leader?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

Jayram wrote:Ok admittedly a very late question to the party but why does the LCA fuselage ride so high ? In other words why is the height from the main fuselage to the ground so high? Is it for weapons attachments clearance and mid line external drop tanks attachment only or something else? Once the wheels are retracted the plane is obviously a gorgeous looking bird but does look a shade ungainly on the ground in clean config.. Not that this matters at all but obviously some weight saving can be achieved by appropriately sizing the height of the undercarriage.. It could also be the height required to ensure the LCA does not do a tail scrape on landing but there could be other reasons as well that escape me..
I have never thought of it that way. I have not felt that the fuselage is high, but that the LCA fuselage is a cylinder that is flattened flattened from side to side, so that the side to side diameter is more than the up-down (dorso-ventral) diameter if you exclude the intakes. That makes the upper part of the fuselage appear high.

Just my impression
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kakarat »

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1807 Test Flights successfully. (20-Mar-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-218,PV3-335,LSP1-70,LSP2-202,PV5-36,LSP3-47,LSP4-46,LSP5-72,LSP7-1)

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 1801 Test Flights successfully. (15-Mar-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-217,PV3-334,LSP1-70,LSP2-201,PV5-36,LSP3-46,LSP4-46,LSP5-70,LSP7-1)
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1808 Test Flights successfully. (21-Mar-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-218,PV3-335,LSP1-70,LSP2-203,PV5-36,LSP3-47,LSP4-46,LSP5-72,LSP7-1)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1807 Test Flights successfully. (20-Mar-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-218,PV3-335,LSP1-70,LSP2-202,PV5-36,LSP3-47,LSP4-46,LSP5-72,LSP7-1)
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vic »

It seems that Flying schedule is accelerating as we are getting more than one flight a day in the month of March 2012
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

Kartik
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kartik »

Nice interview with Dr. Kota Harinarayana on the Tejas.gov.in website.

A must read for all jingos and naysayers..states exactly why we have to back the Tejas to the hilt and make sure it sees service..for the future of Indian aviation..

Dr. Kota Harinarayana interview
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vina »

Nice interview with Dr. Kota Harinarayana on the Tejas.gov.in website.

A must read for all jingos and naysayers..states exactly why we have to back the Tejas to the hilt and make sure it sees service..for the future of Indian aviation..

Dr. Kota Harinarayana interview
This really is the coming of age of a better and more qualified India. Notice the background.. Far away Behrampur, very modest background, no great shakes, makes it by dint of merit and hard work and acknowledged for his accomplishments . Another great example, Dr APJ Kalam. True salt of the earth types, who walk on their integrity and accomplishments as their only two crutches.

Also, notice this profile from Livefist. Group Captain Alagaraja Perumal , Kargil war hero. Small town , nay village ,in Tamil Nadu, which you wont be able to place on the map, father a flower seller, goes to Sainik School and NDA and gets to be Group Captain in IAF and probably took voluntary to fly Kingfisher.

None of the Lawrence, Lovedale/Sanowar /Doon School/Mayo/ St Stephens, "England Returned" , hee haws of yester years (like much of the JNU ding bats in academic positions) , Posh Public School, rich dad /ICS dad/politico dad/ Ex Nawab/Kabab/Raja princelings) who got to got to such schools because of "Connections" and old money and sit around incompetently in positions of power by default and be miserable failures, like the blokes right after independence, especially , the Congress and Leftist types and their thrall of Oxbridge and Great Britain. This was true in all walks of life from academia to politics to media to everything, why even sports, including and especially cricket!

Heck, the Indian cricket team of today is totally unrecognizable from the teams we used to filed right upto the 70s. That used to consist of assorted Nawabs and Princes and other such types who in most circumstances wouldn't make it to a high school side and with a few commoners thrown in from "right" places like Madras, Bombay, Hyderabad, Baroda and Calcutta (a kind of quota system).. a Dhoni kind of guy making it would have been simply unimaginable.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

MArtenullah this time the monsoon excuse will not fly. They should plan for movement to Nagpur or Rajasthan to cover testing and make up for the lost ground. Also they have more aircrafts flying so they should be able to close all test points quicker.

What a humble soul is Dr.KH, people like him deserve higher civilian awards than sportspersons(yeah i will get lynched under the burqa i know :mrgreen: )
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

So, it is all about landing gear problems for nLCA.[tarmak]. mmm.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by sum »

^^ Yup.... seems to be the main deal-breaker currently.
Very, very senior chaiwallah who is "deeply" involved in the N-LCA is virtually spending 7 day weeks at HAL and other locations since last few months...so, there is lot of hard work being put in the background though results are not yet there to show.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Cain Marko »

Kartik wrote:Nice interview with Dr. Kota Harinarayana on the Tejas.gov.in website.

A must read for all jingos and naysayers..states exactly why we have to back the Tejas to the hilt and make sure it sees service..for the future of Indian aviation..

Dr. Kota Harinarayana interview
Excellent article and exceptional personality, but I have to wonder about this:
So I came back and sat in my chair and my immediate boss asked me, ‘Kota, What did the big boss tell you.’ I told him about the problem he had indicated and I that I had told him I could do it one week. Then I thought maybe my immediate boss thinks that’s too long so I said, ‘But I can actually finish it in two days.’ He told me with a smile, ‘Very nice. We have been struggling to solve this problem for the last four years.’ What IISc had done was that it had given us a tremendous amount of confidence to solve problems. I thought it was an extraordinary change for a person who was not even sure of how he could attend an interview to a person who could now say that ‘These are not major issues. We can solve it’.
Question is - did he succeed in doing it in the time/deadline he gave? Makes me wonder if this bravado (not my term fwiw) culture is part of the reason why DRDO repeatedly gives insane time frames for its projects which ultimately translates to "tareekh pe tareekh" scenarios. I mean the guys who had been struggling to do a job for 4 years would've thought KH is a genius extraordinaire to fix it in 2 days! Is it also the reason why the IAF had such little confidence in the LCA to begin with? They knew that it was an impractical, reach for the stars experiment and could not really expect anything useful anytime soon in terms of operational equipment. Does the idea of smallest, lightest come from this attitude, especially considering the proclivity towards the Gnat?

This is not to take away from the man or even the "culture of confidence" engendered within institutions - they probly needed it in those days, afterall the British yoke had barely been thrown off. Just some observations.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

CMji,

While on piscology, we can spin a hundred webs from a hundred angles. I present my angle:

I for one think that we should stop giving out the idea that building a 4.5 generation plane is unobtainium ... Why should it be, other countries have done it and beyond. Why should it be so impossible for us? We should have got it, and we are almost there. To everyone who says we were going for too much, I say, "Yes, you shouldn't have gone for it, it was too much for you!" ... Henry Ford famously said "Whether You Think You Can or Can't, You're Right" ... I think that is what KH carried with him from ISc and that is what he said 'he believed that he could do anything!'

I can give you a personal example. As a kid I always used to look up at planes and wonder how such a heavy thing could fly so unfluttered through air which I can barely feel ... I always wanted an aeromodel ... but I was always given the idea that it is an "unobtainium" ... Everybody around me gave that opinion. Yet when I came to the US, the people at the aero-modelling club said, it is so easy ... In fact it took me half an hour to build my first model (and 15 minutes to wreck it :-) ). People in the US have planes on their farms which they fix on their own ... People even build their own planes from scratch (not very uncommon at all). There is that sense of "it is not rocket science". Recently, a fellow aero modelling enthusiast and graduate student at aero dept. asked me if I was willing to take up a project with him to build a rocket powered supersonic aeromodel ... A aero prof liked the idea and was ready to guide us ... I said it is "impossible" ... How were we going to handle the shock waves for a 1 mtr model, I said ... They will be too close to the wings ... he did not know how he was going to do it ... he only knew that he was going to do it ... I know only one thing that I will never be able to build this, yet this man may (who knows)! ... Recently, a graduate research group developed a supersonic biplane design at MIT and at Tohoku University ... and this does not look pencil like:
Image
If I was told, let us build a supersonic biplane ... I would have said, "Are you mad!" ... but then there are people who thought it could be made and made it ... unfortunately there are not too many of these people in India right now ... I think we Indians should also get out of being awe-inspired, awe-struck" at a flying thing. We should learn to say we can, and we really work for it with full passion (which I am told is not always the case with DPSUs) ... When I return from US, I intend to have a garage where kids could come to build flying machines, be amazed and yet at the same time inspired.

I know Raghu will disagree, but this is my personal opinion gathered from my father and uncles who spent their whole lives working in PSU and DPSUs and friends and major professors who tried to work at PSUs and DPSUs.

Bottomline: We should stop idolizing making a 4.5 generation plane ... India should have tried it ... It was a job well done ... A BIG THEINGA to the naysayers ... and hurray to wonderful sons of India who made it happen.

P.S. Corrected grammar
Last edited by Indranil on 27 Mar 2012 21:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vic »

I agree with Indra, though I say that funding should match the task. Indian funding for our own projects is tooo low
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

yeah.. we need to focus on kaveri.. while various fields could be divided on capability, and taken step at a time, but on the core technologies, I feel turbine is where we are facing all the difficulties. where are those khan rti walas?

is it sooo difficult? even with advanced CNCs? the safest bet is budget.. no money! even in the pvt sector?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1810 Test Flights successfully. (24-Mar-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-218,PV3-335,LSP1-70,LSP2-205,PV5-36,LSP3-47,LSP4-46,LSP5-72,LSP7-1)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 1808 Test Flights successfully. (21-Mar-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-218,PV3-335,LSP1-70,LSP2-203,PV5-36,LSP3-47,LSP4-46,LSP5-72,LSP7-1)
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SagarAg »

LCA Tejas full HD video. Thought of sharing. 8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7kLjhxvXFg
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vic »

The all inclusive cost of Rafale adjusted for inflation is estimated to be US$ 200million while fly away cost is estimated to be around US$ 65 million, which means that R&D cost for the programme was around US$ 40 Billion in inflation adjusted cost compared to US$ 4 Billion for LCA
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SidSom »

One would have expected the newer LSPs to do bulk of the flying and the older PVs to "Retire" but we still see the PVs doing their bit (atleast 2 and 3 seem to have the same rate of testing as the LSPs). When the LSPs are available why would the PVs be used and are there any tests that is preferred to be done on the PVs that using the LSPs for the same. (It may be just a question of more airframes to share the load)

apologies if this seems like a noob question.....
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by koti »

I think, testing different subsystems require different setup in the A/c. So these maybe divided among all the available A/c which are airframe independent.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

vic wrote:The all inclusive cost of Rafale adjusted for inflation is estimated to be US$ 200million while fly away cost is estimated to be around US$ 65 million, which means that R&D cost for the programme was around US$ 40 Billion in inflation adjusted cost compared to US$ 4 Billion for LCA
Exactly.. this is where one has to think a lot.. spending 10b on kaveri or other stealth skins is not a waste. we are just being penny wise and pound foolish.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SidSom »

Will tomorrow see a new dawn in the history of indian aviation with the first flight of NP1(Tarmaak mentions there might be a chance). I surely hope so....... Looking at all the things LCA set out to be (First Fighter, First Fighter Radar, First aircraft engine, First Naval fighter) it seems to be doing an amazing job with the time lines. US (and allies) seem to be struggling with JSF in much the same way or worse (I guess JSF for US is a similar tech challenge as LCA is for India),

Cant wait until tomm to see if it is a mile stone in the history or if the date is just another millstone around my neck....:)
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by MN Kumar »

Saw twin lca's (both in grey :) ) taking off this morning. It looked as if both were doing a bollywood number in the air while trying to get into a formation. Terrific sight.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

^for a mom, I was thrilled.. hearing the word "twin", immediately by brain was scrambling for twin engined model. ..mm. good to hear naval version is getting a clearance.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1812 Test Flights successfully. (28-Mar-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-219,PV3-335,LSP1-70,LSP2-205,PV5-36,LSP3-47,LSP4-46,LSP5-73,LSP7-1)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1810 Test Flights successfully. (24-Mar-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-218,PV3-335,LSP1-70,LSP2-205,PV5-36,LSP3-47,LSP4-46,LSP5-72,LSP7-1)
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

Finally, LCA Navy all set for takeoff in Bangalore

more or less on the lines that tarmak had reported
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