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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2012 20:29 
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It doesn't matter whether Rafale or F-18SH can kill it. In sufficent numbers, they can kill a Raptor but the whole situation changes when you have 10 or 15 Raptors coming at you. The kill ratio would be so highly favorable to the US side even though they have lost a couple Raptors. It is still worth the cost of a couple lost Raptors when it means 90 bogies versus 2 or 3 Raptors. That does not mean that Raptor is totally invincible. It is just that Raptors will allow USA to dominate the airspace completely that the enemy won't be able to do anything effective about it. It is like the Iraq Air force shooting down a F-15 or F-18 down and screaming success when the reality is that the entire Iraqi Air Force was totally decimated and rendered as non-effective or non-showing. Same thing with Serbia. They shot down a F-117 Nighthawk but they still lost Kosovo.

Reminds me of the Soviet joke: Two Soviet Marshals are sitting in a cafe in Paris. One of them asked the other, "So, who won the air war?"

That joke can be applied to the above situation where two US air generals sits down in a bar in a conquered place and sharing beers . One of them asked the other, "So how many raptors did you lose?" or something to that effect.


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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2012 21:21 
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if the rafale is able to hold its own 1:1 in wvr vs the much higher t:w of raptor and no stores drag, thats very creditable imo.

I am not sure how effective the raptor will be without background awacs cover. they also do not interwork with other US fighters in some respects and only among its own kind. people need to find ways to chase or shoot the awacs down using LRAAMs or SAM traps.

all in all, I'd say it remains a somewhat unproven and immature platform till date due to funding problems and time slippages. it might end its service life never having shot anything down in a real war....its lack of strike capability means useful roles in colonial wars in Libya, Iraq and in future Iran are hardly likely. the Teens will continue to shoulder the burden until JSF comes in numbers.


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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2012 21:45 
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The Cold War against Soviets it was 30 years ago ; in a modern scenario against trained opponents , stealth would not be that efficient ...
In a BVR scenario, a F22 will have to activate its own radar to detect a Rafale using only passive sensors and then could become immediately a target which can be detected by Spectra . And remember a Rafale can send its Micas on any targets detected by its passive sensors (EM/IR/laser sensors, FSO) . And if the fight goes in WVR, the couple Rafale/Mica will be also a formidable opponent for the F22.


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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2012 21:54 
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Just one silly question out of curiosity:

Why does the thread title says "Go Katrina"?
Is Rafael endorsed/recommended by Katrina Kaif or someone named Katrina predicted that Rafael will win?


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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2012 22:12 
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Same reason why Su-30 MKI is called rambha


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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2012 23:00 
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And the reason for that is ???


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PostPosted: 16 Mar 2012 23:20 
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BRF Oldie

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Just an affectionate nickname given to the aircraft by BRFites. Both names were coined by Rakesh I think.


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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2012 02:44 
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aniket wrote:
And the reason for that is ???


Read the BRF Dictionary. These birds have some relation (mostly imaginary 8) ) to the ladies they're named after.


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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2012 05:45 
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Danell wrote:
The Cold War against Soviets it was 30 years ago ; in a modern scenario against trained opponents , stealth would not be that efficient ...


Its been pretty damn efficient in all the exercises its participated in so far.

Quote:
In a BVR scenario, a F22 will have to activate its own radar to detect a Rafale using only passive sensors and then could become immediately a target which can be detected by Spectra . And remember a Rafale can send its Micas on any targets detected by its passive sensors (EM/IR/laser sensors, FSO) .


Well the F-22 fields the best fighter radar in existence. Any fourth generation aircraft would be detected well in excess of 100nm. And even if the Rafale can detect and track the F-22 emissions (an upgraded AESA... unlikely), that still leaves five other F-22s flying ahead, radar silent, datalinked to the mini-AWACS.

Quote:
And if the fight goes in WVR, the couple Rafale/Mica will be also a formidable opponent for the F22.


If the fight enters WVR, the F-22 pilot has made a mistake.


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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2012 13:16 
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BRFite

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No one is arguing that the F22 is unmatched in BVR. But does that translate in best ? There are plenty of things a rafale can do that an F22 can't. They are not directly comparable. A big minus for the F22 is that it does not have any optical sensors (apart MWR) which limit its flexibility when used over a battle field not to mention the limited carrying capability.

In the end it all depends on the type/mix of capabilities you are looking for. What the rafale has is better affordability better flexibility & multirole capabilities.

As far as respective radar are concerned the F22 one is certainly more powerfull but no one really knows who's the most advanced. The APG 77 is quite older than several AESA in service and given the pace of technology chances are that APG-77 modules are less advanced than rafale ones.


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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2012 17:11 
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nachiket wrote:
Just an affectionate nickname given to the aircraft by BRFites. Both names were coined by Rakesh I think.

Actually I coined names for every combat aircraft that serves in the IAF. But Rambha and Katrina were the only ones that stuck. They just roll off the tongue. Another member gave the name 'Rakhi Sawant' for the F-18 Super Hornet...another well thought of name.


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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2012 17:20 
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Fully OT.
Which A/C do you think should get the name Poonam Pandey then... ;)


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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2012 18:04 
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Poonam Pandey for Upgraded Mig29?

Back to hibernation...zzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2012 19:43 
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koti wrote:
Fully OT.
Which A/C do you think should get the name Poonam Pandey then... ;)


Teja... promises much, but yet to deliver. :P


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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2012 22:31 
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Badar wrote:
koti wrote:
Fully OT.
Which A/C do you think should get the name Poonam Pandey then... ;)


Teja... promises much, but yet to deliver. :P

Looks like it already has a nickname "Jahaj-e-Kufr"


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PostPosted: 17 Mar 2012 23:20 
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BRFite

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Gripen IMO...
Lot of noise.... No stuff...


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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2012 02:46 
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http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot ... r-jet.html

Bad News


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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2012 04:10 
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for wvr, rafale's t:w@1.7 against raptor's 1.6, whereas Ef is 1.2 something. we can see some comparison between raptor and rafale, but Ef may be a different story.

OLS based locking could be equal on all the platforms.

But, when it comes to TVC, raptor may be the winner, that can cobra on from being chased to chase and kill.

raptor's radar is more advanced, and least LPI. so +++.

raptor's rcs is so low, for mmw seekers. so ++++.


Last edited by SaiK on 18 Mar 2012 04:12, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2012 04:11 
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johnny_m wrote:
http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot.se/2012/03/ooops-as-expected-indian-fighter-jet.html

Bad News

I don't think so. This is like scraping the bottom of the barrel in the desperate hope for bad news.


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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2012 07:44 
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BRFite

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Op Harmattan FrAF details about Naval Rafale role
http://www.mediafire.com/?mg96ap9p53gdios


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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2012 10:22 
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Joined: 26 Nov 2011 13:22
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The Limeys go Bananas

Pratik Das and johnny_m : I agree that this type of planted news is a desperate attempt to scrape the barrel on the part of the losers. Pathetic.

I couldn't resist writing the following on the British blog :

" Why are all these Limeys going ape sh... ?

As an Indian tax-payer (and a life-long fan / admirer of the IAF), I am delighted that the Rafale was selected for final contract negotiations. It was an absolutely fair, objective and transparent evaluation process. Even the Limeys (notice I am not saying Brits.) and their Kraut paymasters admitted this was so. Why are they now whining like petulant school kids ?

Basically, the Limeys just shrivel up when they confront the French. Sorry, get over your 1066 obsession.

The Rafale is the best choice for India and the IAF. If you don't like it, lump it."

Good fare for their Sunday morning chai, eh ? :)


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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2012 10:45 
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The design and technology of Su-27/30 has become the foundation of PAKFA. Similarly LCA & Rafale can become foundation of AMCA. The chest beating of UK is very good to maintain pressure on France not to get too cocky. I think that addititional batch of Scorps have not been ordered and Navy intends to re-tender is perhaps due to French insisiting on various hikes on Scorps and very limited ToT. I think we should milk the agitation of UK Press to leverage more out of France


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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2012 17:17 
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Rakesh wrote:
nachiket wrote:
Just an affectionate nickname given to the aircraft by BRFites. Both names were coined by Rakesh I think.

Actually I coined names for every combat aircraft that serves in the IAF. But Rambha and Katrina were the only ones that stuck. They just roll off the tongue. Another member gave the name 'Rakhi Sawant' for the F-18 Super Hornet...another well thought of name.


hmm...someone mentioned Su-30 was nicknamed as Rambha as it is got two big engines and curvaceous outlook, so I remarked if Su-30 can be called Rambha, PAK FA should be nicknamed as Illeana becoz of bigger engines and flatter profile. :lol:

Don't know you are the SOURCE for all those sources. :D Wonder what name do these Harrier jets got - that would be an interesting name, I guess. :wink:


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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2012 17:22 
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PAKFA = jessica michibata. not very indic figure...long, slim, edgy...not fullsome curves.


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PostPosted: 18 Mar 2012 20:38 
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Singha wrote:
PAKFA = jessica michibata. not very indic figure...long, slim, edgy...not fullsome curves.


PAKFA should be = Anushka Sharma 8)


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PostPosted: 19 Mar 2012 09:28 
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[OT] I'm sorry, but if you need to use a last name then you have not identified a name worthy for IAF aircraft :P [/OT]


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PostPosted: 19 Mar 2012 10:26 
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BRFite

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Well that was in reply to jessica michibata :P


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PostPosted: 19 Mar 2012 16:05 
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Will wrote:
Singha wrote:
PAKFA = jessica michibata. not very indic figure...long, slim, edgy...not fullsome curves.


PAKFA should be = Anushka Sharma 8)


I think PAKFA should be Deepika Padukone

DeePiKA PAduKone 8)


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PostPosted: 19 Mar 2012 23:49 
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India to induct new combat jets from 2016
Link
Quote:
Come 2016 and India will start inducting the first of the 126 combat jets it is purchasing for nearly $20 billion, parliament was informed Monday.


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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 00:47 
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Some details on the price offered by Dassault for the Rafale as well as limited details on licence manufacturing

Eric Trappier Dassault interview translated to English

Quote:
Despite the battering of BAE who tries to deliver the Eurofighter in the race, Dassault expects to conclude the first sale of Rafale abroad this year. La décision de New Delhi a eu un effet d'entraînement sur les autres campagnes en cours, affirme le directeur de l'international de l'avionneur. The decision of New Delhi has had a ripple effect on other ongoing campaigns, says the director of international aircraft manufacturer.

In India, the Rafale has won the tender for the purchase of 126 combat aircraft. Qu'est-ce qui pourrait enrayer les négociations désormais exclusives ? What could stop exclusive negotiations now?
Eric Trappier (Dassault) :

I see no reason why we can go after and bring the Indians to stop when they have done the hard part. The procedure started in 2007. After several weeks of evaluations in extreme conditions, the slopes of the Himalayas to the desert sands, the Air Force selected two aircraft: the Rafale and Eurofighter. Ultimately, it is the lowest bid that won both in terms of unit cost of the device itself and its maintenance over time. Everything was conducted on the basis of criteria set in advance and have been scrupulously observed, without political involvement. This tender is exemplary.

When do you expect to find?

The Indians want to go fast, and considering a conclusion in about six months. We need to finalize the terms technical and industrial, and build a contract whose terms are equivalent to those of the Mirage 2000 (signed in 2000, Ed).

BAE has been suggested that the Eurofighter could get back on track ...

I do not believe, and I am surprised that some people are themselves surprised that the Rafale has prevailed. In all competitions where the two planes were opposed, the Eurofighter has been eliminated in the first round, as in Korea, the Netherlands, and Brazil, where he was ranked behind the Rafale, as in India. Or in Switzerland, as evidenced by the evaluation report of the armed forces published in the press. I add that the calculations of the Court of Accounts UK show that the Eurofighter is much more expensive. Operationally then, the Rafale has proved its versatility during Operation Harmattan, unlike the Eurofighter was conceived as a pure fighter. The tender has appointed Indian clearly the best aircraft.

Have you offered cheaper than that sold to France?

The price of the Rafale in India is offered at French prices, adjusted for expenses related to the contract since it is not quite the same technical configuration, and that manufacturing will be in part locally. The competition was so tough that each side had to offer the best possible price. That said, we have not done dumping to win. A iso-conditions, we proposed the price of French Rafale.

Of the 126 units planned, only 18 will be manufactured in France. Should we expect limited industrial benefits?

The IRB will not match the production of 126 Rafale in France, but not to build a few copies. Technology transfer will be done gradually and there will be no global licensing agreement, but licensing agreements for each device. . In other words, each device will live his own life and its production in India will obey a rise own. . The goal is that India is capable of manufacturing Rafale, but there will always be some activity in France. On the whole, the contract will employ tens of thousands of people.


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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 02:47 
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I hope we don't pay for that "some activity retained in France". we must use that for price negotiations, as Fr would maintain the hold on us for these strategic services, components and parts.


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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 03:29 
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SaiK wrote:
I hope we don't pay for that "some activity retained in France". we must use that for price negotiations, as Fr would maintain the hold on us for these strategic services, components and parts.


Like the Su-30MKI (and Hawk AJT) license manufacture deal w/ TOT, Rafale production at HAL will also follow a similar 5-step process. This is necessary in order to allow Indian industries to absorb new technologies gradually while still meeting the IAF's delivery timeline.

  1. First lot (18 units [2013-2016]) -> direct from France
  2. Second lot (guess-estimate ~18 units [2013-2018]) -> assembled at HAL via SDK supplied from France
  3. Third lot (guess-estimate ~36 units [2016-2021]) -> assembled at HAL w/ partial SDK from France and partial SDK from India
  4. Fourth lot (guess-estimate ~52 units [2018-2024]) -> assembled at HAL w/ most SDK produced in India
  5. Fifth lot (follow-on order ~60 units [2022-2027]) -> assembled at HAL w/ most SDK produced in India

So as you can see, French companies will retain portions of the manufacturing of parts for the next 15 years of Rafale production run for IAF, and then they will be involved in the MLU as well. There is no such thing as 100% indigenous production on a licensed-manufacture w/ TOT.


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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 05:00 
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If we're still proposing names........ for an Indian beauty.............

..................... Persis................


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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 07:31 
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Indian beauty Indian name so here goes : laajwanti .. Not seen easily that's why :)


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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 08:21 
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Shankaraa wrote:



I think PAKFA should be Deepika Padukone

DeePiKA PAduKone 8)


no way... When she was with ranbir , his films were flopping .. now she is with the mallya kid..look whats happening to kingfisher...the only place where the chick should go is the con party...


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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 15:29 
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gakakkad wrote:
Shankaraa wrote:



I think PAKFA should be Deepika Padukone

DeePiKA PAduKone 8)


no way... When she was with ranbir , his films were flopping .. now she is with the mallya kid..look whats happening to kingfisher...the only place where the chick should go is the con party...


Ranbir is a flop with or without DP!

Mallya kid is NOT interested in DP

DP's beauty and grace matches with Rafale!

OR

We can always rely on MADHURI DIXIT, my fav!


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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 18:08 
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U.K., U.S. at Odds Over Saudi Deal
LONDON — British efforts to seal a major deal with Saudi Arabia for precision-guided bombs appears to be stalled by U.S. International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR), according to sources here and in Washington.
The deal to sell Paveway IV weapons developed by Raytheon’s U.K. arm has been on the table since mid-2010, but the U.S. State Department has rebuffed British efforts to secure ITAR approval despite high-level intervention by the government here, the sources said.
http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... CFRONTPAGE

I will never understand US foreign policy : they've just sold another batch of 48 F-15E silent Eagle to Saudi Arabia and now they refuse to export GPS guided bombs !
If we had any plan to buy F-18 or F-35 for MRCA or Navy ... I think that this new US embargo, towards the biggest US ally in that area, is a proof that India wouldn't never be military independent with any US fighter (without speaking of sensible ToT).
At least Rafale can fire french weapons (Hammer GPS and future laser or EM guided bombs), thus ensuring total independence and full autonomy (of course bombs' unit price should be a bit more expensive).


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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 19:57 
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pandyan wrote:
Mamta or Jaya would be a better name. Beepuls should shudder at the mere mention of the name. Wars will fought without even lifting a finger.


'INDIRA' means beauty in Sanskrit. And we know for sure that the 'wimpies' to our west shudder at that name :)


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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 20:14 
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US policy is to make sure arms sold to Saudi Barbaria cannot be used against Israel. The above deal clearly doesn't fall into that category.


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PostPosted: 20 Mar 2012 21:39 
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US seems willing to sell Saudis the best of a2a weaponry - amraam, aim9x, AWACS etc but is unwilling to give them precision strike weapons and the sensors to support it. so no JSTARS and even the older F-15S had their ground mapping SAR modes deleted.

a bit peculiar because the saudis can always get A2G weapons from other sources..and planes like Tornado fleet and now typhoon. and because the US could disable most saudi weapons and shut down the saudi economy if it ever attacked Israel....


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