Indian Naval Discussion

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Mar 2012 01:57

Bigger fish Nikhil,how about this approx 5000 crore escalation/loss and 3 yr delay by MDL on the Scorpenes?! We all know ho the extra cost of the Gorky occured ,due to poor estimates of its refurbishment,esp. the wiring costs.,but why should we reward incompetence in our PSUs? 100 crores is not a "no big deal",it's the taxpayers money and allowing such incompetence to get away encourages the rest of the PSUs to similarly allow costs and dates to escalate and slip.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_de ... vt_1664430

In a written reply on delivery of the submarines being constructed under Project-75, Defence Minister A K Antony said, "The delivery schedule of the first submarine has been revised to June 2015 and that of the last submarine to September 2018."

The original delivery schedule of the first submarine was December 2012 and remaining were to be delivered with a gap of one year each.

"Consequent to the approval of the government for revision of cost and delivery schedule, the delivery schedule of the first submarine has been revised," he said.

The government approval for construction of the six submarines at MDL under Project-75 was accorded in September 2005 at a total cost of Rs 18,798 crore and the contract was signed in October 2005, Antony said.

The "government approval for revision in cost of the project to Rs 23,562 crore was accorded in February 2010 along with revision in delivery schedule," he said.

Delay in construction is attributable to initial teething problems in absorption of new technology, delay in augmentation of industrial infrastructure at MDL and delay in procurement of items due to high cost as compared to the earlier indicated cost, Antony said.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Mar 2012 11:41

Badar wrote:Interesting tidbit : ELF station being set up to support the Arihants. Pieces beginning to come together.
http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2012 ... ng-up.html

This would be very interesting development as not many countries operate ELF stations , this will allow Indian SSBN to operate a far wider and greater depths of Indian Ocean without loosing Command and Control and enjoying far better immunity from ASW platforms , overall making india's underwater deterrence far more discrete ,survivable and potent.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 21 Mar 2012 11:58

The ELF communications facility constitutes the third leg of a triad of projects being implemented by the DRDO’s ATV Project Office, with the other two being construction of the S-1 ‘half boat’ at Kalpakkam and the S-2, S-3, S-4 and S-5 SSBNs; and development of the 750km-range K-15/B-05, 3,500km-range K-4 and eventually the 8,500km-range SLBM, which in the past had been mistakenly referred to as Agni-6.

dinakar · Post by **dinakar** » 21 Mar 2012 12:27

Singha wrote:feed Vijayanarayanam, Tamil Nadu, India into google earth.

INS Kattabomman?

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 21 Mar 2012 18:22

TimesOfIndia has a video about a 2009 collision between two IN ships - INS Ranvir and a corvette. "The corvette was (almost) split into two, and the Ranvir sustained major damage as well." The incident was kept under wraps, no action against the captains was taken.

Video is available on homepage of ToI.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 21 Mar 2012 19:08

yes..saw.. that.. pretty disturbing... hopefully both the ships are back in to service

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 21 Mar 2012 19:54

In 2011, INS Ranvir is on a port call at the Sepanggar Bay Naval Base in Malaysia

Same year INS Kuthar was at the Port of Trincomalee

so both are out in sea.

Added later

March 21st, 2010 INS Ranvir fired a Brahmos

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Mar 2012 19:58

how come a ship thats cut in half is glued together and making port calls 2 years later ?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 21 Mar 2012 20:03

One is firing Brahmos within one year. Both were port calling (actually one right next to china) within one and a half - 2 years.

Indrajit · Post by **Indrajit** » 21 Mar 2012 20:08

Just saw the video,horrible stuff! this could have been worse if the Styx launchers were loaded,good thing that they were empty,not only the Captains were not penalised but eventually were promoted,one went to even head the training command.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Mar 2012 21:51

when ships sail fast close to each other is there some fluid effect that pulls them together unless compensating rudder is applied and a sharp watch kept?

Tsarkar sir's comments on this case would be good to know.

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 22 Mar 2012 00:13

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Singha wrote:when ships sail fast close to each other is there some fluid effect that pulls them together unless compensating rudder is applied and a sharp watch kept?

Tsarkar sir's comments on this case would be good to know.

If I may....... There is an effect that will pull two closely-passing ships together, into a collision, although it is not a "fluid effect".

It's called "gravity".

rahuls · Post by **rahuls** » 22 Mar 2012 00:38

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:^^^^^^^^^^^^

Singha wrote:when ships sail fast close to each other is there some fluid effect that pulls them together unless compensating rudder is applied and a sharp watch kept?
Tsarkar sir's comments on this case would be good to know.
If I may....... There is an effect that will pull two closely-passing ships together, into a collision, although it is not a "fluid effect".
It's called "gravity".

I don't think its gravity, I guess it is a fluid effect, Coanda effect + Bernoulli's principle.

Vashishtha · Post by **Vashishtha** » 22 Mar 2012 00:56

just bernoullis principle... Dont overthink lol...

How does it work?
Hang two table tennis balls about 3 cm apart from each other and blow softly between them... You'll know

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 22 Mar 2012 01:10

So does that mean that the Captains of both the ships were unaware of such effects

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 22 Mar 2012 01:14

^^^ Every captain knows this ... they must have been sleeping.

koti · Post by **koti** » 22 Mar 2012 12:18

Is it possible/implemented to have inclined launchers for SLBM's? The launch force can converted into the vertical plane by some lever mechanism.....

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Mar 2012 13:41

Untimely death of Cmde.KSK Prasad (retd) in Bangalore ths morning after a brief illness.He was in charge of the Navy Foundation in Bangaloree.During his years of service among his many responsibilities,he had a principal role in identifying and evaluating a key weapon system,installed on on many of our frontline warships.May his soul RIP.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Mar 2012 13:59

High sea: Indian Elephant versus Chinese Dragon

akimalik · Post by **akimalik** » 22 Mar 2012 14:47

Philip wrote:Untimely death of Cmde.KSK Prasad (retd)

A rude shock for me. Cmde. Prasad was my dad's c/o at one time and his son and I trained together at SCC.
Sad to read of this unfortunate news.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Mar 2012 15:13

Xcpts from the above paper.

independent construction of its fleet and naval armaments.

Particularly noteworthy are the construction of the first generation of Arihant class submarines and the first Vikrant class aircraft carrier, which will replace India’s only aircraft carrier, the INS Viraat. India successfully pursues programmes to build all types of surface warships – Kamorta class corvettes (P-28 and 28A), Shivalik class frigates, and Delhi and Kolkata class destroyers. We should also remember the joint Russian-Indian project to build BrahMos, a supersonic cruise missile, as well as BrahMos II, its hypersonic version.

The Indian naval strategy emphasises efforts to build awareness in the world ocean domain. To this end, India is working on programmes to create a single monitoring system, incorporating military satellites, unmanned drones, airborne early warning airplanes and helicopters, and at least 24 Boeing P-8 Poseidon reconnaissance aircrafts, to be supplied to India starting in 2013.

By 2015, India plans to operate two conventionally-powered aircraft carriers, whereas by 2020, it plans to have three – the 44,000-tonne INS Vikramaditya, acquired from Russia, the 40,000-tonne INS Vikrant and the advanced INS Vishal, with a displacement of 60,000-70,000 tonnes. This will enable India to operate two carriers at a time, while the third one can be suspended for scheduled repairs or maintenance. There are some unconfirmed speculations that India also plans to acquire several new large-capacity assault landing ships.

When commenting on the development priorities for the Navy, Indian admirals have repeatedly stressed the construction of large versatile combat ships rather than a “Mosquito Fleet.” By 2020, India may have created a powerful modern ocean fleet, with a core of three aircraft carriers, 50-70 corvettes, frigates and destroyers, and about 30 submarines, including four nuclear-powered BM submarines, up to six general purpose nuclear submarines and 15-20 conventional submarines. This will enable India to implement its maritime military strategy and turn the Indian Ocean into India’s “internal sea”.

Prokhor Tebin is a post-graduate student at the Institute of World Economy and

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 23 Mar 2012 00:15

Scorpene submarine sea trials in 2013

The first of the six Scorpene submarines ordered by the Indian Navy will be launched for sea trials in 2013, a top official of the firm constructing the submarines has said.

India had placed orders for six Scorpene submarines with French firm DCNS in 2005, of which the first is expected to be commissioned into the Navy by mid-2015 after a delay of around three years.

"As per the schedule, the first Scorpene submarine would be 95 per cent ready towards end of 2013 after which it will be launched for sea trials," DCNS' India head Bernard G Buisson told PTI here.

Sea trials of a submarine are carried out when almost all the weapon systems and sensors to be deployed on board it are integrated.

He said most of the issues causing delays in the submarine programme have been sorted out and expressed confidence that there would be no further delays in the programme.

The six Scorpenes are being constructed at the Mazagon Dockyards Limited (MDL) under Project-75 under technology transfer from French firm DCNS.

The government approval for construction of the six submarines was accorded in September 2005 at a total cost of Rs 18,798 crore and the contract was signed in October that year.

The project cost was revised to Rs 23,562 crore in February 2010, along with revision in delivery schedule.

Commenting on the delays experienced in the project, Defence Minister A K Antony had recently told Parliament that "Most of the teething problems have been resolved and various plans have been put in place to minimise delays."

narmad · Post by **narmad** » 23 Mar 2012 00:25

Self Deleted

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Mar 2012 01:01

"..end of 2013",which means 2014 in the Indian (govt) concept of time.We simply do nothing when delay after delay and non-performance from our own PSUs is tolerated. Look at what Russia did when the Bulava sub launched ICBM repeatedly failed in trials.Putin sacked one of the most celebrated missile designers in Russia.MDL has very cleverly shafted the private yards with respect to line-2 contracts for the second line of subs,and take up their building once the Scorpene line is over.We need the second line built alongside the Scorpene line ,not after!

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 23 Mar 2012 02:15

Philip wrote:Xcpts from the above paper.

By 2015, India plans to operate two conventionally-powered aircraft carriers, whereas by 2020, it plans to have three – the 44,000-tonne INS Vikramaditya, acquired from Russia, the 40,000-tonne INS Vikrant and the advanced INS Vishal, with a displacement of 60,000-70,000 tonnes. This will enable India to operate two carriers at a time, while the third one can be suspended for scheduled repairs or maintenance. There are some unconfirmed speculations that India also plans to acquire several new large-capacity assault landing ships.

When commenting on the development priorities for the Navy, Indian admirals have repeatedly stressed the construction of large versatile combat ships rather than a “Mosquito Fleet.” By 2020, India may have created a powerful modern ocean fleet, with a core of three aircraft carriers, 50-70 corvettes, frigates and destroyers, and about 30 submarines, including four nuclear-powered BM submarines, up to six general purpose nuclear submarines and 15-20 conventional submarines. This will enable India to implement its maritime military strategy and turn the Indian Ocean into India’s “internal sea”.

Vastly overstated strength. This is the 'Rajat Pandit' thinking that often surprises me. CNS Verma stated as recently as a year back that the second carrier's construction is some years away because of higher priority funding commitments and technical questions that were still unresolved. The first carrier design took some 15-odd years to be nailed down as a STOBAR, 40k tonne ADS. There is no way the so-called "INS Vishal" - a larger ship with CATOBAR & ability to launch AEWs and tankers is going to come by 2020. I'd be satisfied if they nail down the design in the next 5 years. 30 submarines only if all 6 P-75I are delivered and none of existing retire. And 10 N-Subs?

srai · Post by **srai** » 23 Mar 2012 06:36

Philip wrote:Xcpts from the above paper.

...
By 2015, India plans to operate two conventionally-powered aircraft carriers, whereas by 2020, it plans to have three – the 44,000-tonne INS Vikramaditya, acquired from Russia, the 40,000-tonne INS Vikrant and the advanced INS Vishal, with a displacement of 60,000-70,000 tonnes. This will enable India to operate two carriers at a time, while the third one can be suspended for scheduled repairs or maintenance. There are some unconfirmed speculations that India also plans to acquire several new large-capacity assault landing ships.

When commenting on the development priorities for the Navy, Indian admirals have repeatedly stressed the construction of large versatile combat ships rather than a “Mosquito Fleet.” By 2020, India may have created a powerful modern ocean fleet, with a core of three aircraft carriers, 50-70 corvettes, frigates and destroyers, and about 30 submarines, including four nuclear-powered BM submarines, up to six general purpose nuclear submarines and 15-20 conventional submarines. This will enable India to implement its maritime military strategy and turn the Indian Ocean into India’s “internal sea”.

Not possible by 2020.

Here is what is most likely by 2020 (given current/planned orders, retirements (or close to retirement) and building timeframes factored in):

2 x aircraft carriers -> INS Vikramaditya, INS Vikrant
47 x corvettes/frigates/destroyers -> 18 corvettes (8 x P-28/A, 4 x Type-25A, 6 x Tarantul-1), 19 frigates (3 x P16A, 6 x Kirvak.III/A, 10 x P-17/A), 10 destroyers (10 x P15/A/B)
18 x submarines -> 14 SSK (6 x P-75, 8 x Kilo/Type-209), 4 SSN/BN (3 x ATV, 1 x Akula)
10 x amphibious warfare -> 6 LST (2 x Magar, 4 x Shardul), 4 LPD (new class)
12 x MPA-LR -> 12 x P-8I

But if the IN decides to postpone retirements of aging vessels like the Kashin-class, Godavari-class, Kilo-class, etc., then some of the numbers for above category will rise by another 5 to 10 vessels.

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 23 Mar 2012 09:40

Any news on the status of INS Kolkata? Is it in sea trials? any pics?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Mar 2012 10:52

The IAC-1 will be launched within a year's time.The second carrier must be started at least within a year afterwards the launch of IAC-1.That give us a date of 2014 when the keel is laid for IAC-2.Given 4 years to build and launch,the carrier should be undergoing her sea trials by 2020.This will fit in well with the repairs/upgrades to the Virat to see her also serve out the decade.In addition,at least 2 of the 25-30,000t LHPDs planned should be ready once the design (from abroad) is finalised.If a fleet of 4 is planned and the first built abroad,like the tankers built in Italy,it will take not more than 4 years for the first to arrive after construction starts.

Provided there is clarity of requirements,concept and design,the construction of future flattops should not be too difficult for the IN given that the aircrft and helos identified for the carriers are the MIG-29K and NLCA,and the contest is on for the large number,approx 100 ,for ASW/multi-role helos for the carriers and warships of the fleet to replace the oldest batch of Sea Kings.KA-31s will provide AEW coverage untilm a larger aircraft,perhaps fitted to AW-101s or even a version of the Osprey if available,would suffice.STOBAR appears to be the chosen system of launch and recovery and if a naval version of the PAK-FA/FGFA is developed,then this could be deployed on the larger sized IAC-2.

I do agree however that PSU dates of completion muist be taken with a handful of salt.The inability of the PSU yards to deliver and shuttng out of experienced private layers hs been a huge victory for the PSUs.

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 23 Mar 2012 12:02

srai wrote:

Not possible by 2020.

Here is what is most likely by 2020 (given current/planned orders, retirements (or close to retirement) and building timeframes factored in):

2 x aircraft carriers -> INS Vikramaditya, INS Vikrant

47 x corvettes/frigates/destroyers -> 18 corvettes (8 x P-28/A, 4 x Type-25A, 6 x Tarantul-1), 19 frigates (3 x P16A, 6 x Kirvak.III/A, 10 x P-17/A), 10 destroyers (10 x P15/A/B)

18 x submarines -> 14 SSK (6 x P-75, 8 x Kilo/Type-209), 4 SSN/BN (3 x ATV, 1 x Akula)

10 x amphibious warfare -> 6 LST (2 x Magar, 4 x Shardul), 4 LPD (new class)

12 x MPA-LR -> 12 x P-8I
But if the IN decides to postpone retirements of aging vessels like the Kashin-class, Godavari-class, Kilo-class, etc., then some of the numbers for above category will rise by another 5 to 10 vessels.

The destroyer numbers would be 10 but i doubt P15 B to be there. We wont retire all Rajputs by then.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 24 Mar 2012 16:12

Indian delegation inspects INS Vikramaditya

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 Mar 2012 23:12

srai wrote: ...
By 2015, India plans to operate two conventionally-powered aircraft carriers, whereas by 2020, it plans to have three – the 44,000-tonne INS Vikramaditya, acquired from Russia, the 40,000-tonne INS Vikrant and the advanced INS Vishal, with a displacement of 60,000-70,000 tonnes. This will enable India to operate two carriers at a time, while the third one can be suspended for scheduled repairs or maintenance. There are some unconfirmed speculations that India also plans to acquire several new large-capacity assault landing ships.

When commenting on the development priorities for the Navy, Indian admirals have repeatedly stressed the construction of large versatile combat ships rather than a “Mosquito Fleet.” By 2020, India may have created a powerful modern ocean fleet, with a core of three aircraft carriers, 50-70 corvettes, frigates and destroyers, and about 30 submarines, including four nuclear-powered BM submarines, up to six general purpose nuclear submarines and 15-20 conventional submarines. This will enable India to implement its maritime military strategy and turn the Indian Ocean into India’s “internal sea”.

[/quote]

Not possible by 2020.

Here is what is most likely by 2020 (given current/planned orders, retirements (or close to retirement) and building timeframes factored in):

2 x aircraft carriers -> INS Vikramaditya, INS Vikrant
47 x corvettes/frigates/destroyers -> 18 corvettes (8 x P-28/A, 4 x Type-25A, 6 x Tarantul-1), 19 frigates (3 x P16A, 6 x Kirvak.III/A, 10 x P-17/A), 10 destroyers (10 x P15/A/B)
18 x submarines -> 14 SSK (6 x P-75, 8 x Kilo/Type-209), 4 SSN/BN (3 x ATV, 1 x Akula)
10 x amphibious warfare -> 6 LST (2 x Magar, 4 x Shardul), 4 LPD (new class)
12 x MPA-LR -> 12 x P-8I

But if the IN decides to postpone retirements of aging vessels like the Kashin-class, Godavari-class, Kilo-class, etc., then some of the numbers for above category will rise by another 5 to 10 vessels.[/quote]
MPA-LR would be more than 12 P8is, the bears have just completed an upgrade, they'll continue to be flogged, ditto for the Mays, our MPA assets would have the medium range birds and the Donniers too

vic · Post by **vic** » 25 Mar 2012 11:06

Austin wrote:
vic wrote:Let me explain a little problemo with Indian Tu-142s. They are supposed to fly around 500 hrs in one year but are only able to manage on average ~150 hrs.
vic , what is the source of ~ 150 hours of uptime of Tu-142M ?

Austin, you tell the moron, thief, joker chorsen gupta that the source is an old CAG report. Navy wanted Tu-142 to fly around 500 hrs per annum in peace time but they were able to manage only 125-160 hrs. Navy/Forces prepare for around 30 days war, hence Tu-142 should be able to fly around 400-500 hrs in 30 days which is impossible for it. Now the commercial aircrafts like Beoing 737 fly around 4000 hrs per annum

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Mar 2012 16:08

Any news of a further batch 3 Talwar FFGHs? We should be receivig the first of the 3 Brahmos equipped Batch-2 this year,and there was earlier speculation abut another 3.What gives?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 27 Mar 2012 09:41

Philip wrote:Any news of a further batch 3 Talwar FFGHs? We should be receivig the first of the 3 Brahmos equipped Batch-2 this year,and there was earlier speculation abut another 3.What gives?

I dont think there are any more follow-on orders for the Talwar class, focus is on project 17A frigates to be built in Desh. I think if we streamline modular construction, we can churn out a frigate every two years for the next decade or so..

Project 15Bs and 17As should be our focus for now.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Mar 2012 19:48

what makes it closed cycle propulsion for AIP that moscow is apparently helping us? is this fuel cell based? now, what is the feedback for making it closed cycle? O2?

Will · Post by **Will** » 27 Mar 2012 19:54

Any news at all of when the RFP for the second submarine line will be out?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Mar 2012 20:42

vic wrote:Austin, you tell the moron, thief, joker chorsen gupta that the source is an old CAG report. Navy wanted Tu-142 to fly around 500 hrs per annum in peace time but they were able to manage only 125-160 hrs. Navy/Forces prepare for around 30 days war, hence Tu-142 should be able to fly around 400-500 hrs in 30 days which is impossible for it. Now the commercial aircrafts like Beoing 737 fly around 4000 hrs per annum

Ok , If you have the link of old CAG report can you link it please ?

BTW what has this to do with Prasun ? It was my query on the subject , since i find the 150 hours for Tu-142 quite low , is it due to maintenance issues ? lack of spares etc contributing to low flying hours ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Mar 2012 20:45

SaiK wrote:what makes it closed cycle propulsion for AIP that moscow is apparently helping us? is this fuel cell based? now, what is the feedback for making it closed cycle? O2?

Closed Cycle Propulsion is Fuel Cell based , The new system does not carry hydrogen on board but generates it on the fly , compared to current fuel cell system that mandates carrying of Hydrogen and Oxygen on board submarine , how ever the new system will still have to carry Oxygen on board but its much safer that way.

John · Post by **John** » 28 Mar 2012 07:40

Shrinivasan wrote:I dont think there are any more follow-on orders for the Talwar class, focus is on project 17A frigates to be built in Desh. I think if we streamline modular construction, we can churn out a frigate every two years for the next decade or so..

It is going to come down to cost if P-17A cost 1 bill+ per vessel we will still have to procure P-28s or Talwar to fill any shortfalls.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Mar 2012 08:13

John sir, any inputs on what clsass if any will be the basis of the P17A , who is the foreign consultant or whether it will be a totally desi design?