Indian Army : News and Discussion

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 30 Mar 2012 16:11

chackojoseph wrote:
Sanku wrote:Chacko I do not want to "fight" you, but please do not speak on my behalf, I then have no option but to show otherwise and that is painful (there are a few thickskins who can lie blatantly but since you are not one of them -- no need to get there)

Peace.
Sanku,

I don't accept your charges against me. But I gracefully accept the "Peace" part. Peace be with you. I can never resist that.

Well you did misquote me, be good now and accept the mistake, we will let that be.

Otherwise difficult to trust honesty in future also.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Mar 2012 16:18

Sanku wrote:Otherwise difficult to trust honesty in future also.

You crossed that line long back.

Anyway, my lst word on it.

Mods sorry for OT.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 30 Mar 2012 16:52

Gen VKS has released a statement, I'm listing the significant points.

1. There is no difference between govt. and COAS, because office of COAS is a part of the govt. Requests media to not portray it in that light.

2. There are rogue elements within (army? / mod? / serving? /retired? ) that are trying to create a rift. Every time he goes out of Delhi, viz., Mongolia trip, J&K trip now etc. there is a damning leak.

3. He clarifies why did he chose to speak now. The army officer who offered him bribe was kept under weary eye by COAS since the time he had reported about the bribe episode to RM. The bribe giver and his colleagues resurfaced this month when they tried to malign the army by alleging that army was snooping on the RM. The culprits were identified and that is why he chose to bring this forward.

4. He wishes to protect the institutional integrity of the office of COAS, RM and Indian army as a whole.

5. We needed to look within the confines of the system and use available laws to go after the wrongdoers.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Mar 2012 17:03

BEML probe already ordered : MoD

The vigilance is already probing it.

another case is being CBI investigated.

Arun Roperia wrote:Gen VKS has released a statement, I'm listing the significant points.

1. There is no difference between govt. and COAS, because office of COAS is a part of the govt. Requests media to not portray it in that light.

2. There are rogue elements within (army? / mod? / serving? /retired? ) that are trying to create a rift. Every time he goes out of Delhi, viz., Mongolia trip, J&K trip now etc. there is a damning leak.

3. He clarifies why did he chose to speak now. The army officer who offered him bribe was kept under weary eye by COAS since the time he had reported about the bribe episode to RM. The bribe giver and his colleagues resurfaced this month when they tried to malign the army by alleging that army was snooping on the RM. The culprits were identified and that is why he chose to bring this forward.

4. He wishes to protect the institutional integrity of the office of COAS, RM and Indian army as a whole.

5. We needed to look within the confines of the system and use available laws to go after the wrongdoers.

The VKS vs AKA is being deliberately being done. This I know very well. Even this 14 cr bribe offer and the subsequent attacks on RM is something that has to be investigated more than the 14 crore bribe.

Added later...

probably they did not want CBI or Police probe on military officers, which now will come.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 30 Mar 2012 17:43

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/sonia-pm-kne ... 202-3.html
Sonia Gandhi, Manmohan Singh knew about Tatra deal: Karnataka leader

Hanumanthappa claimed that he had sent copies of his letter to Sonia and Antony as well with the Congress President asking senior Congress leader and Union Minister for Health & Family Welfare Minister Ghulam Nabi Azad to forward the letter to concerned department.

A press release by the Defence Ministry on Friday said that after receiving a letter from Azad in October 2009, forwarding the complaints of Hanumanthappa, Antony had asked the Secretary (Defence Production) to look into the various issues raised in the complaint.

==================

http://www.timesnow.tv/videoshow/4399137.cms

mody · Post by **mody** » 30 Mar 2012 18:00

The news report given below says that Lt. Gen Dalbir Singh Suhag, the officer next in line to be Chief after Bikram Singh, is also going to be investigated for Corruption.

This is getting dirtier and dirtier by the day!!

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=17564

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 30 Mar 2012 18:04

i think this issue might bring down the government

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 30 Mar 2012 18:11

Lalmohan wrote:i think this issue might bring down the government

Which one?

================================

Meanwhile, BEML head says Chief has no role in acquisition, he should shut up and let the loot continue

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/beml- ... an/930375/

Speaking to The Indian Express from Bangalore, BEML (formerly Bharat Earth Movers Limited) chairman V R S Natarajan said that the Army Chief had no role to play in the continuing supplies of the vehicles and so there was no question of him holding up the acquisition.

I don’t know what he was talking about since he only had a consultative role to play at the time of preparation of the budget,’’ Natarajan said.

So much so for Army having a huge role to play in the acquisition of system, even the minor oversight the chief has is being publicly rubbished by a DPSU head.

Kudos to the chief that he could use the very limited minor leverage he had to highlight the loot.

Meanwhile I hope this guy remembers his statement when it comes to fixing the blame

Only we deal with the defence forces and the MoD on behalf of Tatra, nobody else.’’

Thank you Saar, BEML and MoD are to blame, you have given the IA a clean chit.

aditya.agd · Post by **aditya.agd** » 30 Mar 2012 18:20

forget about two-front war victory. It looks like Indian Army may not survive Paki attack also.....

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 30 Mar 2012 18:34

It is astonishing that CMD of a PSU has the cajones to publicly slam Army Chief and attribute motives to charges laid out on a third company. This, along with the contents of the leaked letter, points to the truth, that this country is heading for its bloody nose, sooner than later.

Strange, now Antony ordered CBI investigation on BEML Tatra deal on 21 Feb, much earlier than VKS made the bribe offered to him public.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 262770.ece

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 30 Mar 2012 19:17

Wow, now the dead bodies have started turning up -

Deputy Director of Defence Ministry found dead

Zeenews Bureau

New Delhi: In a shocking incident the dead body of a deputy director in the Ministry of Defence and his wife was found here on Friday here, according to news reports.

As per initial information it is being said said the deputy director was posted in the Sena Bhawan in the national capital. The dead body of the couple were found in the vicinity of Sena Bhawan.

Meanwhile, Delhi Police is investigating the entire matter and is trying to find out whether there is any connection between the recovery of the bodies and the leak of Army Chief Gen VK Singh’s confidential letter to the PMO about the country’s defence preparedness.

The incident has taken place at a time when the entire attention of the government is on finding the mole who leaked Army Chief’s letter. The Army Chief has already hinted towards rogue elements trying to create schisms between Army and the government.

Further information are awaited.

http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/de ... 67235.html

Is this related to VKS calling the leak an act of high treason. Some people in the dirty tricks department must be worried. The journalist Saikat Datta of DNA would be well advised to protect himself.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 30 Mar 2012 19:42

Did middleman in Tatra deal put one over the Czechs as well? - http://www.firstpost.com/india/did-midd ... 61520.html

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 30 Mar 2012 19:45

Pranav wrote:Some people in the dirty tricks department must be worried. The journalist Saikat Datta of DNA would be well advised to protect himself.

I think Saikat Datta should reveal everything immediately, thereby removing any incentive to get rid of him.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 30 Mar 2012 19:58

VKS issues a clarification -

Referring to the recent controversy over his statement on the bribe, he said the timing pertaining to the bribe issue has drawn considerable attention.

"It is pointed out after the matter was brought to the honourable Raksha Mantri's notice, certain steps had been taken institutionally to keep a wary eye on the retired officer who had offered the bribe.

"18 months later, the person resurfaced in the beginning of March this year and launched a smear campaign under the veil of anonymity alleging the Army was snooping on the Defence Minister of India.

"Once, the concerned individual has been identified by the Army headquarters, his identity and antecedents were made public," he said.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/army- ... y/930590/0

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 30 Mar 2012 20:03

Woo hoo

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/bemlt ... es/930513/

BEML-Tatra truck deal: CBI registers criminal case; raids 4 places

The CBI today registered a criminal case in connection with the supply of all-terrain Tatra trucks through state-owned BEML to the Army and called for interrogation Vectra group Chairman Ravi Rishi, who is a majority stakeholder in Tatra.

The CBI FIR -- filed under Section 420 and provisions in the Prevention of Corruption Act – has named Ravi Rishi as one of the accused. Others named include unknown officials of the Defence Ministry and personnel, officials of the BEML and Vectra group.
After registering the case, CBI officials carried out searches at four places in Delhi, Noida and Bangalore

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 30 Mar 2012 20:10

So now Skeletons and dead bodies are tumbling out.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Mar 2012 20:16

Ok. Enough is enough.

Sanku, Chackojoseph, JayBhatt, all three of you please do not reply to each other in this thread. If you do so, I will give a warning for each post. I would like to ban you but Forum rules do not allow it without the warning phase.
Thanks,

ramana

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 30 Mar 2012 20:25

Lt Gen Dalbir Singh Suhag gets a breather, at the least. CBI not to probe corruption complaint forwarded by Army Chief.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 263080.ece

The above conclusion of CBI shows that how royally f#%ed up the channels of communication amongst various departments of the Govt are, particularly in the MoD. In this case the complaint was to PM and Minister of Defence. Both replied to the MP promising action. Investigations were carried out by Cab Sec under PM. MoD is not aware of the investigation and its findings.
MoD passes on the complaint to COAS, who lacks jurisdiction to make an inquiry. COAS receives a Non Statutory Complaint from another officer serving under Gen Suhaag when both were in SFF, seeking redressal on the account of being harmed by him. This complaint has references to complaint made by TMC MP and allegations therein. COAS while disposing the latter complaint refers the earlier complaint to CBI, unaware that it has been concluded as non est. MoD cools its heels without an inkling of what is going on...

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 30 Mar 2012 20:29

nelson wrote:Lt Gen Dalbir Singh Suhag gets a breather, at the least. CBI not to probe corruption complaint forwarded by Army Chief.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 263080.ece

The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) today said it would not probe a corruption complaint forwarded by Army chief Gen.V.K.Singh against a serving Lieutenant General, saying an extensive investigation by the Cabinet Secretariat has found nothing into the allegations.

On Tuesday, Gen. Singh had forwarded to CBI a complaint letter from Trinamool MP Ambika Banerjee which had alleged corruption in purchases for the Special Frontier Force during the tenure of Lt.Gen.Dalbir Singh Suhag as its then Inspector General.

SFF comes under Cabinet Secretariat, Euphemism for Raa control.

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 30 Mar 2012 20:40

TATRA ALSO FACES SERIOUS CHARGES IN THE CZECH REPUBLIC

Pranav : please see my post of yesterday :

QUOTE

Some Background Material on Ravi Rishi and his Shenanigans

It appears this has not been posted on this forum.

http://www.ceskapozice.cz/en/business/c ... llegations

This URL leads us to the publication that contains the full article. However, the full article cannot be accessed without a subscription.

UNQUOTE

The rest of my post reproduces the entire article from the Czech paper (in English).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Mar 2012 20:47

JayBhatt, Where is your original post please?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Mar 2012 20:50

nelson wrote: Strange, now Antony ordered CBI investigation on BEML Tatra deal on 21 Feb, much earlier than VKS made the bribe offered to him public.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 262770.ece

Nelson,

as per the original ministry release.

1) The CBI case on BEML is for another issue not this.
2) As far as BEML-TATRA case, it is already under vigilance department since 21 feb.

As per VKS.

1) He has already kept TS under surveillance. He also says that Army is under MoD, so any action taken by Army is same as MoD.
2) he specifically says that the particular bribe incident has been brought out because of repeated issues created by TS.

So, where is the problem?

Technically MoD has covered both TATRA - BEML issue and VKS-TS bribe issue.

As I pointed out before that both AKA and VKS are to blame on omission, I withdraw my comments hence forth as both have actually taken steps to contain it.

I suspect, both VKS and AKA have played a game to break some vested interest. The comments in TV interview and CBI inquiry by AKA are in tandem.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 30 Mar 2012 20:54

peter wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:peter,

I am done with it. I do not see anything that you have typed there is something you have done after reading and you are resorting to same old 'selective' quoting to go on and on and on. That, you are lacing with personal biased opinion and non events. Since you have been persistently displaying this tactics, I will allege that you are exhibiting a malafide motive behind this. I have explained repeatedly on my POV and now I want to move forward with this discussion.
Chacko Uncle,
There is no selective quoting. You can't erase what you have written. When someone points that out to you it makes you uncomfortable because of your held beliefs.

This discussion was over when I saw your first post on this topic. But I still wanted to see how indoctrinated you were. Now it is clear.

Sad - this is the indoctrination Rajiv Malhotra was talking about

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 30 Mar 2012 20:59

Pranav wrote:
Sanku wrote: Why should AKA resign, he has been shown to be in the same mold as Raja/Chidu/Kalmadi etc.
No point in AKA resigning if the 2G's are going to come out unscathed.

AKA is spineless, but more decent than anybody who would replace him.

+ crores

Ghatotkacha · Post by **Ghatotkacha** » 30 Mar 2012 21:05

I wonder if in our neighboring country similar pathetic situation were created for Chief of Army by likes Lalu and others with their slandering/baseless comments. What would have been done to those corrupt politicians?

Would those politicians be dragged in their sleep by a squad of loyal soldiers of COAS from their home and tied to a shallow wet ditch for 1-2 days where it is cold, no food/drinking-water and loud LMG/RPG fire is going through few inches above their head. (I can do an entire scenario on this.)

COAS get his job through rigorous hard work, dedication, sacrifice and showing exemplary leadership skills.
Politicians (mostly) get their job through being spineless, corrupt manipulative, chronicle liar , talking loud etc {add more please}. But, they are yet qualified to yell at COAS and sack COAS. That is just appalling.

These are many time, I start to think, maybe kind of democracy we have in India is not good. We need to bring some change.

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 30 Mar 2012 21:16

Mr. VKS loves politics - the way he is slugging it out openly in the press! A very untypical army chief. Here is my guess. He is preparing to stand for elections during the next general election! Perhaps India's first PM from the army?

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 30 Mar 2012 21:19

ramana wrote:JayBhatt, Where is your original post please?

It is on page 19 of this thread, posted yesterday (29 Mar 2012) at 10:58.

If you feel that it would be more convenient for you and other colleagues to conveniently read the entire article from the Czech journal, I can reproduce it in another post.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 30 Mar 2012 21:19

chackojoseph wrote:
nelson wrote: Strange, now Antony ordered CBI investigation on BEML Tatra deal on 21 Feb, much earlier than VKS made the bribe offered to him public.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 262770.ece
Nelson,

as per the original ministry release.

1) The CBI case on BEML is for another issue not this.
2) As far as BEML-TATRA case, it is already under vigilance department since 21 feb.

As per VKS.

1) He has already kept TS under surveillance. He also says that Army is under MoD, so any action taken by Army is same as MoD.
2) he specifically says that the particular bribe incident has been brought out because of repeated issues created by TS.

So, where is the problem?

Do you have the 'original ministry release', why would CBI raid Vectra in Bangalore and Noida and call Mr Ravi Rishi, on an investigation concerning BEML only, as you are saying.

Why did what VKS said today or something to that effect, was not uttered in any forum, by AKA or his lackeys in MoD. Would have saved the tarnishing of VKS and thereby Army's image before the Nation. You can replay what AKA said in media or in Parliament many times over, there was no connect.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 30 Mar 2012 21:21

rajrang wrote:Mr. VKS loves politics - the way he is slugging it out openly in the press! A very untypical army chief. Here is my guess. He is preparing to stand for elections during the next general election! Perhaps India's first PM from the army?

So you got up in the middle of a nightmare and came straight on BRF to post what you can recall from that?

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 30 Mar 2012 21:24

More on the FIR filed by CBI.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... epage=true

Ghatotkacha · Post by **Ghatotkacha** » 30 Mar 2012 21:27

nelson wrote:
rajrang wrote:Mr. VKS loves politics - the way he is slugging it out openly in the press! A very untypical army chief. Here is my guess. He is preparing to stand for elections during the next general election! Perhaps India's first PM from the army?
So you got up in the middle of a nightmare and came straight on BRF to post what you can recall from that?

Nelson bhai you are funny

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Mar 2012 21:27

nelson wrote: Do you have the 'original ministry release', why would CBI raid Vectra in Bangalore and Noida and call Mr Ravi Rishi, on an investigation concerning BEML only, as you are saying.

Why did what VKS said today or something to that effect, was not uttered in any forum, by AKA or his lackeys in MoD. Would have saved the tarnishing of VKS and thereby Army's image before the Nation. You can replay what AKA said in media or in Parliament many times over, there was no connect.

I have not altered the statement in the second para which is a ministry release

What may have happened is that "if vigilance is already behind BEML, then the parliament statement would have alerted the," But, they must have realised that it is a national news already and the guys must be already alert. Hence this statement has been release with more info. its a guess.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Mar 2012 21:30

Pranav wrote:Did middleman in Tatra deal put one over the Czechs as well? - http://www.firstpost.com/india/did-midd ... 61520.html

Who cares about the Czech? Typical Indian reaction to worry about non-Indians! This is one way to dilute the focus and pretend universal norms when the bigger crime occured in India.

BTW NDTV reports:
CBI turns down Army Chief's request to investigate serving general

No wonder there was nothing served by asking for CBI inquiry by a non-political leader.

So here the Army Chief asked for CBI inquiry and got turned down. So what was the point in asking him to go to CBI and file FIR etc.

He should ask the Judge Advocate General or order Court of Inquiry on the serving officer.
Going to civliians will lead to disspation like above.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 30 Mar 2012 21:32

^@chackojoseph
Please read the two posts relating to CBI raids and the one you posted. Why do do you say that the CBI case on BEML is on another issue? It is the same nexus between MoD - BEML - TATRA which is being probed and has called for raids only after they have been kicked out of their stupor? Is it not?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Mar 2012 21:34

nelson wrote:^@chackojoseph
Please read the two posts relating to CBI raids and the one you posted. Why do do you say that the CBI case on BEML is on another issue? It is the same nexus between MoD - BEML - TATRA which is being probed and has called for raids only after they have been kicked out of their stupor? Is it not?

This time CB raid is for the VKS bribe issue as CBI has registered the case.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 30 Mar 2012 21:34

@ramana

Please read my earlier post on the issue along with report from The Hindu.

COAS can not order an investigation into alleged omissions and commissions of officer of the IA, while on deputation to SFF, except on personnel matters like CR/ extension of tenure.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Mar 2012 21:37

ramana wrote:He should ask the Judge Advocate General or order Court of Inquiry on the serving officer.
Going to civliians will lead to disspation like above.

Even Jaswant Singh, the BJP MP was hard on Antony saying that Serving Army officers should not be CBI investigated.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 30 Mar 2012 21:38

rajrang wrote:Mr. VKS loves politics - the way he is slugging it out openly in the press! A very untypical army chief. Here is my guess. He is preparing to stand for elections during the next general election! Perhaps India's first PM from the army?

That would be great for the country

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 30 Mar 2012 21:39

One thing I do not understand - spares and ammunition in the army in the main fall in the "revenue" expenditure rather than "capital". Most of the unused funds are from the "capital" expenditure budget. I believe that the army pretty much has control of the "revenue" budget without too much interference.

As far as ammunition is concerned, it is possible that there have been procurement delays for imported ammunition types.

However, I do recall a serious problem in placing orders with the OFB in a timely fashion and then too in insufficient quantities for both FSAPDS rounds and 155 mm artillery shells - small quantities such as 20-30,000 as against a requirement of 75,000+ and against a capacity of over 100,000.

At least part of the problem - not the whole - lies with the army's own internal procurement processes.

Same for NV equipment for the infantry. 2nd Gen and some 3rd gen weapons sights are manufactured locally but insufficient orders are placed at any given time.

As far as 97% of the air defence equipment being obsolete that is somewhat misleading.

The OSA, Strella, Kvadrat and Igla SAMs have been re-lifed and given a limited upgrade (the OSA and Kvadrat with Polish assistance) so are still viable though replacements need to be sought.

The gun systems are ageing but viable especially with the Zu-23-2 optronic upgrade. The L70s still have some service in them largely because of the radar systems they are slaved to - the upgraded Super Fledermaus, Flycatcher and Reporter are very good systems.

Then of course you have the Akash program with two regiments on order.

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 30 Mar 2012 21:43

nelson wrote:
rajrang wrote:Mr. VKS loves politics - the way he is slugging it out openly in the press! A very untypical army chief. Here is my guess. He is preparing to stand for elections during the next general election! Perhaps India's first PM from the army?
So you got up in the middle of a nightmare and came straight on BRF to post what you can recall from that?

Yes it could be a nightmare!