Bharat Rakshak

Maj Gen retd Mrinal Suman flies over the coup-coup's nest

'Coup' rumours: Media's irresponsible reporting dents Army's image

Army Chief has been speaking of hollowness for 2 yrs. We didn't notice. - Nitin Gokhale in NewsWarrior: The General and his thought process...

http://nitinagokhale.blogspot.com/2012/ ... l?spref=tw

Is the good officer self flagellating? I mean sit eh Army image so fragile that a pack of lies will dent the image? On the ocntrary the Ind Exp was shown to have prionted lies and not yet apologised for that. Its the Ind Exp image that takes a beating.

I don't understand how the Army image takes a beating when the media prints lies. It should be the media image that should be dented.

Any one who reads Ind Express while Shekhar Gupta is the Editor is a duffer/cretin/moron/idiot (take your pick) and deserves that sort of manufactured news.

As Issac Pulitzer wrote" Accuarcy is to newspaper, as virtue is to a woman!"

To which one lady replied "A newspaper can always print a retraction!"

Yeah the worthies at IT, Unnithan and Aroor and others had no response to it. Not that I expected these guys to stop it but at least raise this point.

All gave me the usual BS

Look how easy is it fool the public. The media is still considered independent and fair in India. This notion needs to be demolished

You guys are the Facebook/Twitter generation.

Instead of whining here why not organize a boycott Ind Express day or a week. Do something while the tempo is hot.

Write to main advertisers of Ind Exp to withhold funding.

For teams to meet with them.


This is a good opportunity to constrain lifafa journalism in India.

He was also paid 50 Lakhs by the India Today group to attend. Khana, peena transportation, accomodation, security and a*** licking free onlee.

Not a mod, but I really feel you should not have posted that here, for various reasons.

In any case, IA and all Indian service arms, have far outclassed the rest of India in terms of dedication to the country, cause and discipline.

Indian citizens in general understand and expect that, that of services being peopled by people who are a "breed apart" -- therefore the expectation is both well earned, and lived upto, over many decades and in some cases more (traditional warrior communities following same ethos)

Sure India is changing, but a lot of it is good, and we see those changes in IA too, changes for the better in terms of people strengths (yes its possible Indian Army can actually get better people)

That said, that piece is also insulting to Indians in general as well.

---- The above remark of "yatha praja, thatha raja" is basically a pathetic attempt by some (coterie of the corrupt) to basically diffuse the guilt of a few corrupt at the very top and spread it by making it everyones mistake.

A variation of this "reasoning" is seen during any anti-corruption drive, arguments like "you gave 5 ruppes to the traffic policeman therefore it is perfectly right for Raja and INC to loot 17000000000 cr, for Devas sell out, for coal chori etc etc"

After all 5 rs == 170000000000000000000 rs (since rs == rs, and corruption == corruption)

Therefore a poor person paying a policeman 5 rs to carry a extra passenger is same as rampant rapine loot, all citizens are equally chor etc etc...

May 6th Kargil Rememberance Day is coming up. Maybe a good idea to launch a campaign to show Ind Exp there are nationalists still left in India.

A one line summary of the whole non-coup business is

"Army exercises, INC sweats!"

Where do I sign up?

MOD's "Annual Report",last year's copy! TOI.

According to the paper,the MOD "lifted" heavily from the previous year's report with paras on key countries like China and Pak and some others virtually identical in the first chapter "Security Environment".
Example:
"India is conscious and watchful of the implications of China's evolving military profile in the immediate and extended neighbourhood",2010-2011. The same para is repeated in the 2011-2012 report! A similar statement about Pak continuing to support terror is repeated in the 2012 report verbatim.With a budget of 1,83,408 crores,the MOD can't even come up with an original report.This indicates the utter contempt of the MOD babus at the top of the nation's security,their contempt compounded by their falsehood,ignorance,venality and supreme indifference to the armed forces in particular and the people of the country.In Stalin's Russia they would've been tortured and shot. Instead these babu scumbags garner to themselves "Padma awards" by the bagful,apart from looting the exchequer with their corrupt ways.

Sack the blighters responsible,send them on a one-way ticket to Siachen to discover first hand the fate of the Paki soldiers trapped in the avalanche!

Philip the threat hasn't changed and the language also hasn't changed. Unlike TOI journalists who are adept at thesaurus to describe the same threat using new phrases don't see how MoD babus who definitely passed the IAS exams need to dress the threats in new language.

Lets not give TOIlet more hawa then needed.

True,the threats haven't changed,but surely their nuances have and theirs (especially the Chinese) and our capability affected either by increased or decreased capability.One doesn't expect from the IAS oligarchy such a pathetic display of ineptitude.It displays an attitude that "no one will read it or notice the similarities".I shudder to think of what would've happened to the babus responsible for this report had they had Sardar Swaran Singh or Babu Jagjivan Ram in charge of the ministry!

So the earlier FMS deal for ULH also stands scrapped?

Looks like IB was sweating while the Army exercised.

IB should try to prevent terrorists instead of looking for ghosts and scaring the politicians.

Has any one heard a peep from Mr Insecurity?

I used to know someone who worked in a PR agency in Delhi. The guy's job was basically to get favorable stories printed in media for agencies paying clients. It was quite common for the paying client to write something and send it to the PR agency, the PR agency would forward this to their paid so-called journalists who would many time print the writeup verbatim for mass consumption.

After the role media had in 2G scam, I lost all faith in the media. In all seriousness, the system of governance in India can be best described as Kleptocracy, definitely not Democracy. Democracy is a tool that the thieves who control government, media, police, judiciary, etc use to delude the common public. The reality of Indian system is Kleptocracy - look at it that way and everything will make sense. Looking at Indian system as a democracy is self-deluding.

What a joke. Does anyone here seriously think that the scaremonger(s) would be held accountable? Governance in India would have been very different if this was the case: Indian Express would be well on its way to going bankrupt, its owners would have been hauled up in court, journalists fired and their reputations destroyed so that no one else would have hired them. In a Kleptocratic system such actions are reserved for those very few people who every once in a while want to do some real good, recall income tax investigations against Anna Hazare and team + Baba Ramdev, etc.

Zero accountability for criminals and thieves since these are the people who run the system.

In the context of Ammunition shortage mentioned in COAS's leaked letter ...

Ajai Shukla on NDTV: "Ammunition shortage has existed since NDA government. George Fernandes wanted an ordnance factory in his home constituency Samastipur; so stalled procurement."

ManishH,

What you wrote is sadly very mistaken or can even be said to be rubbish. Shukla was perhaps trying to make the broader claim that a systemic issue exists of procurement bungle ups thanks to official apathy or even interference, but what you have interpreted it as with regards to the current situation is absolutely misplaced.

The current shortage is for APFSDS shells. These are specialized shells intended for tank to tank combat. The current shortage here has nothing to do with the NDA. In fact it was under the NDA's tenure that India inked the first contract for Israeli 125mm shells for the T-72 tank fleet. Follow on orders were placed as well, and the Army chose these shells over the DRDO MK1 125mm shells whose production was stopped and replaced by these shells whose variants were also license made by OFB. This production apparently ran into trouble on account of issues with the TOT & in all probability, the OFB's usual competence when it comes to QC with high precision items. One of the reasons the Israeli round was chosen over the local one was that the OFB mixed and matched Russian propellant with significant batch quantities of the DRDO rounds. The propellant leaked & the rounds were declared useless for further use.

To add to the trouble, the MOD in its wisdom has blacklisted IMI - the original 125mm KE round providers, causing a further problem. What this means is that the single most prominent source of the T-72 fleet's APFSDS is no longer available unless some bureaucratic way is sought (IMI is now IWI so we can order from them etc etc).

Meanwhile, even procurement of Russian rounds have been delayed for the T-90 thanks to the MOD's usual speedy procurement process. These are the older Russian 3BM-42 KE rounds in widespread service with their army which are the standard fit for the Russian exported T-90s as well. Per public reports, an order for 16000 rounds is in process. Which Btw works out to only 32 rounds per tank even assuming only 600 T-90s are in IA service till date. Clearly insufficient.

These rounds are required because the Russians arm twisted us over the T-90 deal and the tanks with the original Ballistic computer can only use the Russian rounds. The follow on Indian BC equipped T-90s - once the TATA one gets into regular production may be able to employ Indian as well as Israeli rounds.

The mess can hence be firmly laid at the feet of the current MOD which blacklisted IMI without even seeing what the overall impact on defence preparedness would be, with stocks at 4 days as versus the required 40, per media reports - and clearly rush orders at high costs will be placed to tide us over to avoid Parliamentary censure, or if common sense prevails.

About the only silver lining in the whole mess, is that the DRDO developed MK2 APFSDS round is now getting into firm shape. It was developed without firm GSQR from the Army, in order to take the MK1 experience forward, and in 2010 30 rounds cleared initial trials, leading to the Army agreeing to 500 rounds being put through accelerated trials. If these are cleared for production by the Army, hopefully we will have a stable source for the T-72 for at least a few years, till an improved variant is sought.

Overall, the incident is typical of how the current MOD, with very poor coordination, led by a man who only cares about his "corruption free" rep, has ended up mismanaging a very critical requirement.

1.The OFB is unable to produce these items in number @ the requisite quality.
2.Production rates are abysmal.
3.Stocks are not standardized, the Army buys piecemeal amounts from different vendors for different units.
4.The Army itself did not think about a long term perspective for this item, coming out with proper GSQRs in time for the long term development of this item (especially as it is complex tech and hard to get right, with only few vendors capable of supplying it)
5.The MOD did no coordination for the same or even get other manufacturers involved as versus only OFB
6.No effort in reaching out to other vendors for long term development and viability beyond releasing tenders for the pieacemeal IA orders.


Any other MOD with any common sense would have conducted a root cause analysis into why the OFB had issues with 125mm KE production, fixed accountability, charted out a ten year plan for acquisition and simultaneous local development of this critical item, identified other procurement options and then ensured sufficient reserves were available for any conflict.

The MOD has not done this

I strongly support the above. An excellent analysis.

Hope MOD dont become MOAD =Mother Of All Delays. BP require preventive efforts/ cure before it kill Indian fighting heart .
BP= Babu+Politcian.

They already have become MOAD or rather mad.

There is very little coordination when it comes to weapons procurement or development. As a result there is often absolute confusion between the three wings - production (DPSUs), research & development (DRDO) and the user (services).

The MOD does little to alleviate finger pointing at production & R&D by the user by reforming production (the biggest bottleneck) by involving the private sector en masse or by involving the user as a program manager by setting up a joint development agency across the services, with representation by all three components above).

Either the MOD are shockingly incompetent (despite being staffed by the great IAS) and have deliberately made the system at odds with its purpose, or are very canny.

After all, if the process is smoothly managed & every aspect is covered, where is the scope for emergency purchases at inflated rates or single vendor procurement? How will assorted arms vendors make their coin.

Either ways, whether it be incompetence or deliberate acts of omission by a few vested interests, the situation is not tenable.

India is losing.

Lets take a few examples beyond this APFSDS story.

A decent functional design like the INSAS is now to be ditched for an all new "modern" design from some imported small arms provider. And why was the INSAS panned initially - OFB production & QA issues. The new gun will be made by the OFB as well. So what exactly is the point of just ditching a local design without reforming production?

Our shipyards are amongst the least productive when compared to worldwide peers. What measures have been taken (beyond capital expenditure) to bring them on par? All stalled due to labor dadagiri.

The Tejas program. Per AM Rajkumar's book, a HAL chairperson did not support the LCA project and was to blame for delays. It has also been reported that HAL was more supportive of the IJT (its "own baby") versus the LCA. Even if these issues were subsequently resolved, what about the months, years of delays caused by these acts? What about the IAF Chief being advised by his so called "advisors" not to support the LCA & Rajkumar telling him "sir, this is being developed for the IAF not the PAF"? When the Kaveri was clearly not going to be ready in time, why was ADA not given permission to drop the engine without the Kaveri program not being jeopardized in turn (use it for future requirements).
What exactly was the MOD doing while such issues festered between R&D, production & user, each acting to his/her whims/fancies. The MOD has absolutely failed when it comes to coordinating or leading national programs.

All the MOD seems to be doing today is acting as the source of funds and ensuring the primacy of the civil services types over the services plus making sure electoral groups are appeased (DPSU workers unions are not offended by privatization). Otherwise MOD is a total failure when it comes to seeing that programs of national importance occur as planned by putting adequate structures in place, ensuring coordination, ensuring speedy procurement or meeting national requirements.

The scam under INC looks like this. Any tieup of PFB will get delayed till the partner delivers into the off shore bank accounts. To do this they stop/delay production and cause delays. Public outrage ensures increased procurement at jacked up prices.

What IA has to do to send shock waves is say that they need to go nuclear after first four days and NFU is not valid anymore.

Can some guru throw light on how war reserves for ammunitions are calculated and are the calculations being done w.r.t. the two front war scenario ??

What I find so ludicrous is that then INC leaders were the one mocking the GF run MOD's Op Vijay procurement in newspapers. They used the CAG report to imply it was all hanky panky. Why, because India purchased these very same APFSDS shells from Israel, because the Army asked for them and even so, the beancounters in the CAG said "infructuous" because "war was being fought in the mountains". Apparently, it escaped their thinking that the war could have expanded beyond the mountains.

Basically, the Congress & successive govt's starved the forces of modernization citing the economy. The NDA came in and set off a massive modernization after the twin shocks of Kargil & the Parliament attack. After that, it has been squenched. And today, the UPA is sitting pretty over an Army which has/had 4 days of stocks of anti tank shells. About the only successes are the local flagship programs - Akash, Pinaka, Agni etc which have come good. Or the handful of long running procurement programs like the Su-30 MKI.

Even so, it was under this same UPA that the attacks on DRDO took place by the "journalism of courage" newspaper. At the same time, incidentally, DRDO et al were acting tough over the DPP policy (recall news reports then) that the offsets should be mandatory for deals above a certain value.

Today, neither is the Army well equipped. The delay in the MMRCA deal, the AJT etc are well known. Former yet to be signed.

And the very same CAG who was used to allege Tehelka-gate and attack the NDA is now persona non grata.

And Tehelka has not run a single "new expose" on the MOD.

The system is now totally rotten when an Army Chief can be offered a bribe and his honesty is called into question when he writes about shortage of war equipment.

Go figure.

Karan, that is an excellent analysis of the issues facing arms procurement in India. What is even more alarming is that you could list out so many utter failures without even touching on the disaster that is artillery procurement. Add that to the mix and the situation starts looking really really scary.

What I noted, unfortunately, is the tip of the iceberg. Take the cost escalation in the Scorpene contract for example. The manner in which a helicopter tender was cancelled after there were statements that a retd official leading the winning bid was related to the gentleman handling it from the services end. Basically, if we see what is happening today, the entire edifice has issues.

What amazes me is also the fact that those who are successful despite the system are usually targeted.

For instance, take the LCA program - its usually the first target of every rtd sort or new journalist, using claims of cost, capability without even attempting to look at issues such as overall Indian industrial capability. However, the manner in which we have been ripped off on assorted programs ex-import is never discussed until and unless CAG releases a report. Whereupon, only a minor fracas ensues till MOD gives the usual "all iz well" response.

Basically, the system is set up to ensure that a) local efforts are either set for failure or underfunded and b) the import gravy train continues and finally c) the import gravy train does not lead to long term independence by proper TOT

Whether this is due to a) incompetence or B ) politics or c) corruption or a combination of all three, the problem is this is clearly a big issue and exactly why India has not been able to succeed beyond a point.

Karan and others,

I have been trying to dig up on some shady activities by a certain "educated, articulate and aggressive" female INC ex-minister from Andhra about the cancellation of the Bhim artillery unit.

So far I have been unsuccessful. Do you have any light to throw on this matter?

Sir, even if you do, it will never see the light of the day. The media is completely in one political camp, lock-stock-and barrel.

I don't know if you noticed but today, incidentally, the SIT exonerated Modi & several others over the Gujarat riots. There was an interview of Shri Raghavan (SIT) on NDTV and it was amazing to see the overt bias on display, starting from the questions asked (all with a hostile body manner) by a lady anchor who did not cover herself with glory during the Radia affair , the side bar - with screaming headlines from Ms Setalvad (her prior activities re: fake evidence not mentioned anywhere). The political bias was overt.

Bottomline, our system is completely subverted with the system of checks and balances not working. Organizations which are supposed to keep each other on their toes are actually eating from the same pie. Pretty much a kleptocracy.

Clearly, in such a system, people like VK Singh are shown the door very quickly when they try to shake things up. Incidentally, since we are on the topic of artillery- this man evidently pushed for the OFB to use its acquired TOT (however limited) and use it to make local guns. Can anyone inform me what exactly prevented his predecessors from doing something similar? Incidentally, if the OFB does succeed in making these guns - thats some 400-700 guns less from an import order..would not endear Mr Singh to another bunch of lobbyist's would it.

BTW, the Bhim is back. This time with a Zuzanna 155mm gun on top of the Arjun chassis, and hence called the ArZu.
http://www.kerametal.sk/en/commercial-d ... -1/zuzana/

BTW, BEML - the current favorite of the day, will be the system integrator of the turret on the Arjun platform.

Gentlemen

What did I predict?

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... e-missiles
Army pushes for fast-track purchases to counter China, Pakistan

And guess how many vendors in these "fast track purchases" will insist on higher payments than necessary to expedite production and shipment. Proper planning, housecleaning at OFB and a reasonably efficient acquisition process and these fasttrack purchases would not have been necessary.

Your reservations are well founded as your defence of armed forces.Mav is not a gospel writer.But life has shades of grey.The Hindu ethos accepts it while yearning/striving for the right/light.

Karan has only touched upon the tip of the tip of the iceberg.I mentioned in an earlier post,an allegation from a credible source, how a PSU developed a particular component,pretended R&D on it was still going on,sold the device to a pvt. player who now supplies it to the services at high cost ! All this while a Paki mole within the PSU sends reports home .When the officer from one of the services deputed to the PSU discovered the scam and mole,he was asked first to mind his own business by the "boss" and then sacked! He is reportedly fighting back in the courts.Screwdriver tech is still bandied about as "indigenisation".A thorough clean-up of both the MOD and DRDO/PSUs is required ,but who is willing to take on or change the system? As they say "a fish rots from the head",and if as in India's case the head is thoroughly rotten and we have a non-performing "honest" DM,who like his PM allows the bandicoots a free hand to loot the nation through their multitude of scams, very little reform will take place.It will be another round of musical chairs once Gen.VKS retires,"urgent measures to equip the services" will see another rash of imports and so-called JVs,the rodents will be celebrating with bubbly in their 7* ratholes and secret bank balances will see large inflows.

If real reform is to happen,the nation needs to be led by truly honest men and women,who are daring in decision making,not hesitant and afeared of criticism,but only want to protect their grip of their seats of power. It is our responsibility to vote only such representatives in election time.The mass of voters keep on choosing between "the devil and the deep sea" ,one bagful of scoundrels to replace another,TN the comedy state of make-believe being a prime example.

Spinster went to recent DefExpo and noted that many PSUs did a shoddy job of indegenius product development. They didnt even bother to remove the foreign developer's name tag!

oops, wrong thread. On to the Paki thread.

and MoD aphisars proudly claim that "private sector is not ready to make difens products and dont have the experience". It is very clear that PSUs are front for the karrupshun scheme and very easy to siphon money without any accountability.