Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Apr 2012 07:34

I think NRIs should cool down and not get upset about comments in foreign countries.

as kartik says, nobody in india whether in or out of power gives a rats a** about all that....we have real problems and priorities to solve here independent of whatever agendas the west has.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 20 Apr 2012 07:41

I WANNA SEE THE FIREBALL

Now back to regular programming.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Apr 2012 07:47

tejas, giving rats is one thing, accepting situations and willing to move on a correction path is maturity. to me, if someone points at me and says, the way I brush my teeth is wrong or poor, and I will accept and move on, and if possible correct the errors if I find ways to correct. we are mixing events and situations here.

tomorrow, there will be a poser why expensive billionaire club and still poor people live in India.. why need democracy and babooze, when poor people live in India.. why have roads and infrastructure, when we have poor people in India.. why have 12b MMRCA a/c when we have poor people in India.. the list will go on.

you have genuine concern, then take it the right thread.

sum · Post by **sum** » 20 Apr 2012 08:20

^^ Now waiting for Nirbhay onlee!!

Jayram · Post by **Jayram** » 20 Apr 2012 08:25

ramana wrote:Folks, 1.1 tonne RV means 1100kg. The book "Lightning Bolts" says maal to vehicle weight ratio is 1/3. Assuming that the technology has remained constant, a conservative weight estimate for Indian maal is ~350kg.

Ramana a question then.. Does this mean that the MIRV payload is now 350 Kg of maal divided by the number of warheads ? That would mean too much of a minaturization then given my very limited knowledge of current state of Nuclear tech... So how much would each warhead weigh then in an MIRV situation? Are we on thin ice there ?

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 20 Apr 2012 08:27

Brajesh B, the comment on space deployed interceptors is a MaRV bus in low earth orbit can release a intercepting RV which then changes orbit and aligns with the ballistic trajectory of an incoming enemy missile in its mid-course phase, and due to its higher velocity closes in on the enemy RV or RV+Stages to destroy it

The ASAT is said to be about managing velocities and accuracy at altitudes to intercept a sat traveling in a predefined orbit, so a MaRV in an interceptor role aganist a purely ballistic RV should be feasible, MaRV on MaRV, not so sure

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Apr 2012 08:38

Jayram, the most advanced Khan warhead W88 is said to weigh around 360kg. given our far lesser number of tests and money spent, if our MIRV design is proofed by Shakti, its yield is likely to be much less
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W88
the W88 is claimed to yield astonishing 500KT in a pkg smaller than volume of a adult human being. apparently having a non-spherical primary to fit within slim cone is very hard without a lot of test data, so thats why PRC targeted and stole it.

give this situation, unless we have quietly stolen it as well, we need to be conservative about the dimensions of our MIRV payloads. they are unlikely to be as slim and petite as the Trident D5. someone was saying best to assume 3 x MIRV @ 500kg each and of greater volume than the state of art. I agree.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 20 Apr 2012 08:41

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2012/04/ ... xport.html

If India becomes a member in the NSG can it veto any attempts to ban nuclear trade with it following POK III ?

Jayram · Post by **Jayram** » 20 Apr 2012 09:06

Singha yes and that link your provided reinforces the point that we need to have reliable miniaturized warheads (for the same bang ) to fit into a 1100 Kg payload or our total payload (for equivalent amount of bang) will have to go up thereby effecting range (which may or may not be a big deal since we can Agni V does seem to have a greater range than the public figure of 5000 Km).
Anyway the missile community has delivered and now its the turn of the nuclear scientists to also do so .. if they haven't already.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 20 Apr 2012 09:22

Is the payload 1.1 or 1.5 ton?

Will the agni 2 be slowly phased out with the induction of more agni 4s?

I find it hard to believe that mirv will be a possibility without retesting. I don't feel that 20-40 kt petals will suffice. We need 200-300 kt petals to glass china's major population centers.

200-300 kt bgrv will be especially useful against the Europeans and Yanks.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Apr 2012 09:27

Actually the fireball business means there is an accepted payload configuration, a version was flown and the fuze functioned. So its a settled matter for the strat community.

Whats eating Manu Pubby in Ind Express.
Flexing with restraint

Flexing with restraint, in reach and in name
Manu Pubby Posted online: Fri Apr 20 2012, 03:09 hrs

New Delhi : Thursday’s test-firing of the Agni V, the longest-range missile developed by India, stands out for one more reason.

The world reaction has been much more tempered than on past occasions when India tested nuclear-capable systems. The US said India has a “solid nonproliferation” record though it added the standard remark that all nuclear-capable states should “exercise restraint”. Even China, the nation most affected by India’s new capability, noted the launch and said the two nations have a “sound relationship”.

India has carefully worked on the range and capability of the Agni V to ensure it does not alarm the world. The revealed range, over 5,000km, makes it an LRBM, or long-range ballistic missile, something that does not carry the more sinister connotation of an ICBM, or intercontinental ballistic missile, which would have had a range over 5,500km.

{Son its an ICBM with terminal velocity of 7km/sec or Mach 25.4 per Saraswat. Laws of physics say that is an ICBM. 7.2 km/sec will make it orbital. Also DRDO says they can launch a 300kg sat into low earth orbit. That also means deliver that weight anywhere in the world.}

An ICBM, by convention, carries a deeper message, that the holding nation can strike with nuclear weapons at any continent it wishes to target. In India’s case, the Agni V can reach all targets in Asia and some parts of Europe and Africa, but the Americas and Australia are out of its range.

{{Please read my above remarks}

This limitation is, however, no comment on India’s capabilities to develop long-range missiles. The DRDO made sure a message was driven home: its chief V K Saraswat said that with the launch, India has demonstrated that it has the capability to design, develop and manufacture missiles of the ICBM category.

The LRBM classification reflects a very careful position taken up by New Delhi, that it has no extraterritorial ambitions. The reluctance to join the select ICBM club, which includes the US, Russia and China, is to make the point that nuclear capabilities being developed by India, be it the Agni V or the Arihant nuclear missile submarine, are strictly for deterrence.

Even now, the Agni V’s capabilities go beyond launching nuclear weapons to great distances. As the DRDO has said, the missile can be used to deploy anti-satellite weapons, given that it is capable of reaching heights over 600km.

While India’s official position is against the weaponisation of space — New Delhi has said it is not interested in developing anti-satellite weapons — the fact is that the Agni V has demonstrated the capability to launch such weapons, if needed. Saraswat has said the missile can also be used to deploy mini- and nano-satellites in space, another application that could be useful to the military.

Do you know when military would need to launch such mini sats? Its in case of general nuclear war where the regular sats are destroyed! IOW deterrence has broken down!

The Agni V is part of the nuclear triad envisaged by India as part of its no-first-use policy. The missile gives India true land-based deterrence against China. India already has air-based options in the form of the Mirage and Su 30 MKI fighter bombers. The third link of the triad —sea-based deterrence — is under development in the form of the Arihant nuclear missile boat, undergoing trials and expected to be operational by next year.

What next

Having cleared the first test, during which it went through all three stages as per the plan and landed on target, the missile will later be integrated into a canister. The plan is to make it rail-mobile and road-transportable to give it flexibility of launch.

According to its developers, the missile will undergo two more validation tests over the next one year to test all parameters. After that, it is likely to go into production. The actual induction of the missile into the strategic forces will, however, take much more time. The strategic forces will want to carry out a few field tests before placing their confidence in the missile as a valid, nuclear-delivery platform.

Saraswat has said the technology available, now validated by the launch, will help India develop a new range of missiles that will be faster to deploy and more robust, and will carry heavier payloads. The DRDO will now work on the technology for a multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicle (MIRV) for the Agni V. This will essentially make the missile capable of carrying multiple warheads that can be launched during flight to take out different targets. The technology is essential to evade modern anti-missile shields. :lol

{MIRV to evade ABMs is so 70s. You need evader technology like the A5 payload to defeat ABMs}

Home-made

The Agni V, like most of its predecessors in the series, is said to be 80 per cent indigenous. DRDO says most major systems like the rocket motors, propelling system and mission control systems are being produced in India. The challenge is to eliminate the need of assistance from nations like Russia and Israel that are involved at some stage or the other.

The DRDO has been gradually scaling up its capabilities since the first test of the 700km Agni I in 1989. However, it was only in October 2007 that the Strategic Forces Command (SFC) fully operationalised the missile after a successful user test firing.

The Agni II, with a range of 2,000km, was first tested in 1999 but became operational 11 years later after the SFC test-fired it in May 2010. The Agni III, 3,500km, faced problems during its first test-firing in 2006, when it failed. Three later, consecutive tests were successful, the latest in February 2010.

The DRDO had then claimed that it would have the Agni V ready for test by the middle of 2011. While details have not come out, the development agency has taken twice the time that it had estimated for the success of the Agni V. In November, in a semifinal of sorts, the Agni IV with a range of over 3,500km was tested.

Hanging out with Shekar Dupatta?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Apr 2012 09:30

I agree, without testing we cannot reply on untested warheads for strategic deterrence. we need variable yield 50-300KT warheads in small form factor which is only possible if we open further testing. until then 3 X 500kg MIRV of a suboptimal 50-100KT yield max is likely to the best we can do. this increases cost - more missiles needed for same effect , more people, more logisitcs, more C3I hassles....

but for now they might proof the MIRV concept with a already tested smaller of the shakti designs.

the world situation is favourable to open a fresh series of tests before retreating back to humble yindoo mode for a while. we should boldly go ahead and do it and dare anyone to impose sanctions. our market is N times larger than 1998 and one of the big hopes of various MNCs to sustain their growth going fwd. Obama and NPAs will howl somewhat but we always have the precedence of Noko who exploded two chinese devices and the repurcussions were what - a demarche and dossier of protest from DC ?

Chinese biraders have already paved the way, perhaps they want to test new designs too. let us thank them and resume tests. the french will likely gleefully follow in our wake just as their rafale's hid behind our MKis in red flag to take bvr potshots at eagles and vipers. Rus nuclear complex surely has some catchy new ideas to proof out too. and khan is always working and tinkering with things.

it just needs a strong PM.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 20 Apr 2012 09:32

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2012/04/ ... gni-5.html

Speaking earlier to Business Standard, Avinash Chander said, “Megaton warheads were used when accuracies were low. Now we talk of [accuracy of] a few hundred metres. That allows a smaller warhead, perhaps 150-250 kilotons, to cause substantial damage. We don’t want to cause wanton damage [with unnecessarily large warheads].”

250 kt= TN weapon

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Apr 2012 09:35

ArunS wrote in India Forum

TOI Link

Great!!!

These two report confirm:
1. The third stage was conical
2. Third stage fired during re-entry, meaning it did MaRV/BgRV
3. 7 km / sec re-entry speed meaning its a full ICBM
4. precision of few meters (not few tens of meters)
5. All three stages were composite motors. Not clear if all three stages were carbon composite or only the upper stage was carbon composite. That pumps up teh mass fraction of these motors in high 90 percents, tremendously increasing the total impulse delivered to payload.

"Quote:
These included rocket motor casings made up of carbon composites, the motors contoured to suit the missile's shape, high-performance navigation, guidance and control systems and rail/road mobile launcher.

.... .. Dr. Sekaran, the chief designer of the missile, stressed that the rocket motor casings made up of carbon composites gave the missile a better performance.

6. the 3rd stage was carbon composite, meaning it was capable of taking on Max-Q temperature stress during powered BgRV style flight profile.
7. IOW flight was BgRV to make it ABM resistant:

Quote: DRDO has also worked to reduce the radar and other ''signatures'' of missiles like Agni-IV and Agni-V to make them ''much more immune to counter-measures''.

Enjoy!!!

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Apr 2012 09:48

ramana wrote:A5 propels India into ICBM club

Moments after the mission's success, Dr. Saraswat told The Hindu: “Today, we have made history. We are a major missile power.” India was among the select group of countries to have the capability to design, develop, build and manufacture a long-range missile of this class and technological complexity. “The versatile capability of this missile will enable India to leapfrog into areas of Multiple Independent Re-entry Vehicles (MIRVs), anti-satellite weapons and the capability to launch satellites on demand. This will usher in a new era of missile development in India,” he asserted.

We have heard it from the man himself, we have analyzed it, have been overjoyed by it but have we realized the true significance of it?

<Speculation Alert>

If it can launch satellites, it means that the RV can itself be injected into an orbit by A5. Once in an orbit it can reach any part of the earth. When it reaches the desired position, the MaRV de-orbits and starts re-entry. Now if such is the case what is the range of A5? or rather name a place on earth that it cannot reach!

In which case, the saving by have all composite stages, will directly add to the payload capacity. A rose will morph into a sunflower (10 petal).

</Speculation Alert>

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Apr 2012 09:53

actually Russia had tested such a fractional orbit bombardment system to take down the running dog capitalists way back in 1960s and even tested it with dummy warheads. the US-Rus START2 treaty cancelled the deployment of FOBS system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOBS

but weak and starving as we are, we are not signatory to any such treaty....in any case it would be a weapon deployed on demand, not kept in orbit like satellite.

a proper ICBM that can take 30mins to cross half the earth is much faster though.....if the end of the world is desired, why wait...

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 20 Apr 2012 09:56

Re naming A5 as Tessy

Yeah, unhone aadhi duniya ki aisee (India weak hai) soch ko taisee (turned around) kar di

Aisee ki Tessy kar di

Jai Mahakaal anyways!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Apr 2012 09:56

per news reports the 2nd stage is also composite, a change from A4 where it is steel. the 3rd stage was composite by design.

the 1st stage is still steel.

Anant · Post by **Anant** » 20 Apr 2012 10:00

A lot of you are asking for video to see how RV's come back to earth. Well, this isn't Indian but it has excellent real footage of America reentry vehicle entry (Minuteman III). I imagine that is how India's Agni did it. I am so proud to be an Indian American. Anyways, enjoy the video. It's wild! Imagine the Indian version. We'll see it soon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChhYOO1s ... re=related

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 20 Apr 2012 10:01

Arav wrote:A ‘political missile,' say Chinese media

It welcomed recent moves by the People's Liberation Army to boost military preparedness by holding two major drills in Tibet near the border with India — an operation in October comprising air force and artillery units and a recent live-fire drill by the PLA Air Force. The commentary urged Beijing to “not be careless and naïve and think that India is militarily weak.”

Remarkable how a single missile test changes attitudes.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Apr 2012 10:02

Instead of FOBSing, better to deliver micro and mini sats that does all the activities need to detect launches. That way, it is more dedicated and distributed. A counter launch could also mean a mid-course ABM, that is safer to earth.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Apr 2012 10:03

No need for speculation. It can reach anywhere in the world with 7km /sec with the 1.1tonne RV.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 20 Apr 2012 10:03

A5 should be used in regular intervals to launch mil satellites. Will demonstrate reliability to others and to ourselves and can be continuously improved.

FYI - the Minotaur rocket system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minotaur_(rocket_family)

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 20 Apr 2012 10:15

Signs of an Asian Arms Buildup in India’s Missile Test: NYT

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Apr 2012 10:23

I think the second stage is graphite epoxy and the conical motor is carbon composite as it survived re-entry.
This is a big deal. By surviving re-entry and then being ignited it powered the BGRV mode. After jettisoning the RV fourth stage kicked in. So it was a powered guided all the way killer. No unpowered coasting.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 20 Apr 2012 10:29

Here's something to make you go hmm

Ajai Shukla's article says...

Within minutes, the Agni-5 was in space, streaking southwards for 2,000 kilometres until it crossed the equator. Then it hurtled along for another 3000-kilometers, re-entering the atmosphere over the Tropic of Capricorn and splashing down between the southern tip of Africa and Australia. From launch to splash-down, just 20 minutes had elapsed.

Here's a range map in kilometers from Bhubaneswar, noting that the Tropic of Capricorn essentially bisects Madagascar Island, as a reference. A line between southern tips of Africa and Australia are 6000-6500kms from BBI:
5000km@BBI, 5500km@BBI, 6000km@BBI, 6500km@BBI

Please remember - we only said it was fired to a point 5000kms away...

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 20 Apr 2012 10:31

"No need for speculation. It can reach anywhere in the world with 7km /sec with the 1.1tonne RV."

Ramana, why is Bharat Karnad so cocksure that this is not an ICBM? He was in a little discussion on CNN-IBN with Rajdeep Sardesai, Madhavan Nair, Praful Bidwai and Surya Gangadharan.

http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/250284/is- ... -race.html

What he said is something to the effect that this is a platform which enables India to have an ICBM, but not an actual ICBM. He flatly stated it is an IRBM.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 20 Apr 2012 10:34

http://www.scribd.com/doc/73116189/Ball ... le-Program

All about BgRV from the expert

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Apr 2012 10:39

I'll have someone talk to him!

A5 is not your grandfather's rocket to paraphrase the Oldsmobile commercial. Its a new paradigm. One needs to understand the scientist speak and extrapolate.

Look up any website and see what is ICBM terminal velocity.

If the A5 trajectory is chosen to have the conical motor ignited while still in ascent phase and have only the RV reenter it will give the desired range.
the rocket equation tells you that.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Apr 2012 10:42

Acharya wrote:http://www.scribd.com/doc/73116189/Ball ... le-Program

All about BgRV from the expert

Excellent Thanks for posting

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Apr 2012 10:42

comment below the minuteman video:
I really enjoyed sitting on the north end of Kwaj,looking toward Little Bustard, and watch the re-entery vehicles impact the lagoon. It was like a preview of the end of the world. The night sky would turn to daylight when those birds came streaking in. God... I love multiple warheads in the evening.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Apr 2012 10:44

in this A5 launch we have taken a proper 101% halal 10,00km ICBM and make a 6000km missile out of it (because thats as far as we need to go), reduced the apogee, depressed the trajectory, increased the RV speed from mach14 in a typical coasting RV design to mach25 powered S-manouvering RV..a nearly 200% increase

people are free to call it whatever they want I suppose - if they want to call it a IRBM so be it. what matters is it brings all potential targets in 10-15 yrs within range.

as Ramana said if we choose a 1300km type apogee trajectory, same payload will be delivered to maybe 10-12000km albeit at a slower RV speed.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Apr 2012 10:54

No it will be at 7km/sec speed which makes it ICBM range.

BTW your way senior is the one that made graphite epoxy available for the program.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 20 Apr 2012 10:55

The reason we call it 5000km range is because we don't want to direct our intent at anyone outside the innermost concentric ring of this pic. It was, based on math, proofed to a point near the outermost concentric ring.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Apr 2012 10:56

abhishek_sharma wrote:Signs of an Asian Arms Buildup in India’s Missile Test: NYT
“All of this, from the Chinese perspective, looks like a movement from balancing China to containing China,” said Graeme P. Herd, a security expert at the Geneva Center for Security Policy.

one way for the west is to look like chinese and take the responsibility of balancing china act.. now, how come these strategists play like our babooze!.. given some performance, the existing ministers will take credit. If tsnuami hits, you would not hear any minister for help. the same way is our western strategist..

drdo boys struggle all the way with all the denial regime, and once it goes successful, every strategists finds a way to share in the piece of meal.. typical scavengers.

“Everyone forgets about U.N. Security Council Resolution 1172, which calls upon India and Pakistan to cease development of ballistic missiles capable of delivering nuclear weapons,” Paul K. Kerr, a nonproliferation expert

And this nukepert continues to forget India has advanced so much for peace., and UNSC resolution is on the wrong side long time back. security council is already flaunted by the P5s.. on many resolutions.. what is this one?

“It is ridiculous,” said Praful Bidwai, a researcher and columnist associated with the Coalition of Nuclear Disarmament and Peace. “We are getting into a useless arms race at the expense of fulfilling the need of poor people.”

This para-fool must be thinking off getting nobel peace price now for talking for the poor people.
--
like said many times, who cares 'cause:

“We have achieved exactly what we wanted to achieve in this mission,” Avinash Chandra, mission director for the test,

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Apr 2012 10:58

Agree with Ramana saar and Singha saar. In a true ballistic profile and on a standard trajectory the A5 will have a reach of 10,000 km.

OTOH, people in responsible positions and connected to the government should parrot the official line, especially in media interviews, articles, etc.

The far seeing massa would have observed the flight profile, the RV velocity at 3rd stage burnout, the reentry velocity and the point of impact and done the maths. It is the public you do not want to alarm, lest we get identified as a threat to the continent.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Apr 2012 11:01

Woh time beeth gaya. Its now time to call a spade and not a digging tool.A few years from now need to assure all if India goes down no one will get up.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Apr 2012 11:04

The current test did kiss hubble orbit and almost made it to polar orbits - 600km

SKrishna · Post by **SKrishna** » 20 Apr 2012 11:05

India Just Successfully Test Launched a Missile That Could Blow Up China

Agni goes mainstream in world media even Gadget blogs like Gizmodo has a piece on it...

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Apr 2012 11:11

ramana wrote:Woh time beeth gaya. Its now time to call a spade and not a digging tool.A few years from now need to assure all if India goes down no one will get up.

Sirji, I want to wait till we can spare at least 3 SSBN's each carrying around 12 of A(5/6/7) SLBM patrolling the pacific.