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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2012 09:11 
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we need a few more ocean survey ships. we have a few and ongc might use them as well . they have the gear to measure temperature, salinity, turbidity, currents, map the sea bed, manage UUV etc.....more the database we have more the ease and safety of submarine ops in such areas.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2012 09:18 
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The earliest data collection for oceanography was done by merchant ships plying the oceans. Dedicated ships is a recent phenomenon as less than a hundred years for purposes of science. Though many ships on routine tracks are often fitted with instrumentation beyond the needs of the ships mission, but to help with data collection. Many cruise ships with fixed voyage patterns are used too.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2012 10:10 
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Thanks Bade for putting things in perspective.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2012 10:55 
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HMCS Endeavour is generally considered the first oceanographic mission and that was over 200 years ago.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2012 10:57 
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we have 9 survey ships on paper each of 2000t. 1 is with NPOL, rest with navy.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2012 11:27 
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Technical snag led BEL to short supply Akash to IAF
Quote:
A technical snag encountered by a consortium partner has led to defence electronics major Bharat Electronics Limited short-supplying Akash Weapon System to the Indian Air Force in the last fiscal,a top official said today.

Technical snag encountered by a consortium partner has led to BEL short-supplying Akash Weapon System, a medium-range surface-to-air missile system.Against supply of 96 missiles, we could receive only 15 missiles from one of our consortium partners,” BEL Chairman and Managing Director Anil Kumar said. :oops:

The short supply of the system to IAF, in turn, impacted both top and bottom lines of BEL whose revenue grew just by 3.3 per cent to Rs 5710 crore (provisional) in 2011-12 against Rs 5529.69 crore the previous year, he told reporters here.

But for now, the technical snag has been resolved and manufacturing of Akash Weapon System had begun and its supplies would be completed by December 2012, he said.

“BEL has obtained an order worth Rs 3125 crore for supply of Akash Weapon System to the Army,” he added.

He expressed confidence of meeting current year’s revenue target of Rs 6300 crore with an order book value of Rs 25748 crore as on March 31 as against Rs 23600 crore as on March 31, 2011. “During last fiscal fresh orders worth Rs 7000 crore were booked.”

BEL was eyeing a larger share of the Rs 16000 crore missile order of defence by extending the expertise it had gained in Akash Weapon System,he said.

Kumar said government rejecting an export order worth USD 6.5 million to Thales through its Indian subsidiary had resulted in a lower exports of USD 38.45 million as against USD 41.53 million in 2010-11.However, the current year would witness a better export performance as the company had already orders worth USD 60 million, he said.

Major orders BEL is executing included Rs 602 crore Coastal Surveillance System, a Rs 542 crore order for Social Economic and Caste Census for which it was supplying a rugged PC tablet, a ship borne ESM system order worth Rs 400 crore, ship-borne integrated electronic warfare System Rs 273 crore and Low level light weight radar Rs 222 crore.

My anti-virus reflecting some virus threat with the link, so not recommended to get it with this post.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2012 12:46 
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First post is out with the E Book on Agni V and its implications for India.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2012 17:28 
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After Agni V, DRDO gets into Agni IV's 2nd trial

Quote:
BALASORE: Jubilant over the spectacular success of India’s first Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile (ICBM) Agni-V, the DRDO is readying for the second developmental trial of nuclear capable Agni-IV next month.
The missile, with a strike range up to 3,500 km, will be test-fired from Wheeler Island off the Odisha coast any time between May 6 and 8, sources said. The trial will be followed by a series of tests of three other variants of Agni. After Agni-IV, the DRDO would carry out the fourth developmental test of 3,000 km range Agni-III missile, while the armed forces would conduct user trials of 2,000 km range Agni-II and 700 km range Agni-I in a sequel. However, the developmental trials of Agni-IV and Agni-III assume significance as the DRDO has planned to induct the latter in the armed forces next year and the former in 2014. DRDO chief V K Saraswat has said that by year-end, the organisation will go for another test of Agni-V missile, followed by the third one next year before inducting it in the armed forces in 2014.
“After that, the user trials of Agni-IV and Agni-V will be conducted,” he added. Defence experts said with the test-firing of 5,000 km range Agni-V, India has already enhanced its missile capability in the world. It would emerge as another missile power in the region after the induction of Agni-III, Agni-IV, Agni-V and submarine- launched K-15 missiles.
“The test marked the completion of an important milestone in India’s missile defence programme, in reaching the country’s goal of creating a credible deterrent in view of regional security threats. The missile can easily act as a deterrent to Chinese missiles,” they said. India’s arsenal is boosted by missiles such as three variants of Prithvi, ship-launched Dhanush, BrahMos cruise missile, Agni-I and Agni-II besides anti-tank Nag, Akash, Trishul and air-to-air Astra. This apart, new generation missiles like Sourya and Prahaar are under developmental trials. Defence sources said Agni-IV is a modified version of Agni-II prime strategic missile. It can carry 1,000 kg warhead with re-entry heat shield. The two-stage solid propelled missile is 20-m tall and weighs around 17 tonnes. While Agni-III can be launched from rail mobile launcher, Agni-IV can be fired from road mobile launcher which gives it more flexibility and wide range of operational success.
DRDO Chief Controller (Missiles and Strategic Systems) and Programme Director of AGNI Avinash Chander said though a series of tests has been planned, the exact date of trials has not been fixed. Agni-IV was tested for the first time on November 15 last year.


Being a developmental test, shall we expect A3 without a vented inter stage seperation in this upcoming test..?
If yes, then I think all our A3 arsenal would me modified (No ventd intrstage) to become more compact with this test :D as they have mastered this particular technology with A5 success.
Also could A3 be carried with the same road mobile TELAR as that of A5 with this stuffing?


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2012 17:51 
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Suraj wrote:
Counterforce doctrines require sufficiently accurate and established deterrent capability. Nukes have only ever been used as a countervalue weapon, and their primary MAD potential was the threat of catastrophic countervalue destruction. India's relatively weaker deterrent would imply that NFU+countervalue retaliation is our position against PRC - effectively in response to their 'our deterrent is much more capable' statement, our statement is 'yes, but how many cities are you willing to lose when you use it ?'


1. There is a misplaced notion that CounterForce has to be only through N response. Pure Conventional option exists for such strike. In India, comments of ex- SFC guys dropped heavy hints in this direction. Conventional response is valid and part of steps in N war escalation.

2. Coming to the accuracy, our missile force has established sufficient accuracy to carryout CounterForce strike. In media we hear of near Zerro CEP as well as single digit accuracy for our missiles from Prithvi to Agni 3. Accuracy of Agni V is a classified information. Others will envy us if they come to know.

Further in coming days and months, we are only going to work on such systems to further increase the accuracy and dependability.

How it translates?

Size of the missiles with the adversaries is between 1 to 2 m dia or higher, enclosed in the silo of thickness much higher and its covering lid size further higher. For 2 m dia missile, we are talking about the lid size of 4- 6 m or higher. If Brahmos with Zero CEP can do a bunker buster role on these silos, it is an effective *Conventional* CounterForce strike weapon. Even less than 10kt yield is more that sufficient to destroy these silos as N response through other missiles with the accuracy we achieved taking into account all other adverse events that we may encounter.

Definitely India do have valid deterrent in these area. 10 kt test weapon success in PoK2 is accepted by everyone including many detractors.

3. >> Nukes have only ever been used as a countervalue weapon, and their primary MAD potential was the threat of catastrophic countervalue destruction.

That's becoz, in those days, accuracy of missiles is very less ( accuracy of Ghauri missile with Pak is few KMs) so Nuke has to be big so the collateral damage and more appealing to advertise as City busters as it can kill several thousand/millions of people. So we heard more about MAD potential.

Sub KT nukes are available now with India. If we want to formulate a N response we can do that in whichever fashion we like, from Sub-KT to several hundred KT.

CounterForce response is definitely possible for India. It is a reality.

PS: Weapon yield of Minuteman missile is chosen in accordance with the accuracy the missile it can achieve and the strength of the Soviet Silos it needs to destroy at that time. So CounterForce option was retained even with missile having MAD potential. (CEP of Minuteman is higher than that of Trident as per open source)


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2012 18:18 
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BrijeshB wrote:
After Agni V, DRDO gets into Agni IV's 2nd trial

Quote:
BALASORE: Jubilant over the spectacular success of India’s first Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile (ICBM) Agni-V, the DRDO is readying for the second developmental trial of nuclear capable Agni-IV next month.
The missile, with a strike range up to 3,500 km, will be test-fired from Wheeler Island off the Odisha coast any time between May 6 and 8, sources said. The trial will be followed by a series of tests of three other variants of Agni. After Agni-IV, the DRDO would carry out the fourth developmental test of 3,000 km range Agni-III missile, while the armed forces would conduct user trials of 2,000 km range Agni-II and 700 km range Agni-I in a sequel. However, the developmental trials of Agni-IV and Agni-III assume significance as the DRDO has planned to induct the latter in the armed forces next year and the former in 2014. DRDO chief V K Saraswat has said that by year-end, the organisation will go for another test of Agni-V missile, followed by the third one next year before inducting it in the armed forces in 2014.
“After that, the user trials of Agni-IV and Agni-V will be conducted,” he added. Defence experts said with the test-firing of 5,000 km range Agni-V, India has already enhanced its missile capability in the world. It would emerge as another missile power in the region after the induction of Agni-III, Agni-IV, Agni-V and submarine- launched K-15 missiles.
“The test marked the completion of an important milestone in India’s missile defence programme, in reaching the country’s goal of creating a credible deterrent in view of regional security threats. The missile can easily act as a deterrent to Chinese missiles,” they said. India’s arsenal is boosted by missiles such as three variants of Prithvi, ship-launched Dhanush, BrahMos cruise missile, Agni-I and Agni-II besides anti-tank Nag, Akash, Trishul and air-to-air Astra. This apart, new generation missiles like Sourya and Prahaar are under developmental trials. Defence sources said Agni-IV is a modified version of Agni-II prime strategic missile. It can carry 1,000 kg warhead with re-entry heat shield. The two-stage solid propelled missile is 20-m tall and weighs around 17 tonnes. While Agni-III can be launched from rail mobile launcher, Agni-IV can be fired from road mobile launcher which gives it more flexibility and wide range of operational success.
DRDO Chief Controller (Missiles and Strategic Systems) and Programme Director of AGNI Avinash Chander said though a series of tests has been planned, the exact date of trials has not been fixed. Agni-IV was tested for the first time on November 15 last year.


Being a developmental test, shall we expect A3 without a vented inter stage seperation in this upcoming test..?
If yes, then I think all our A3 arsenal would me modified (No ventd intrstage) to become more compact with this test :D as they have mastered this particular technology with A5 success.
Also could A3 be carried with the same road mobile TELAR as that of A5 with this stuffing?


If Agni - III is tested with the same config as before, it would surely mean that they are trying to test some other technologies rather then doing the testing the field the missile. The A-IV, at 20 mtrs tall and 17 ton, as opposed to 17 mtrs and 48 tons for the Agni - III are stated to have the same range. Also the difference in weight between the A-III and A-V is only 1 ton, as the A-V uses the composite motor. Hence common sense would dictate that A-III has been superseded by A-IV and A-V combo.
However, if they are still going to conduct a "Developmental" Test, then it should surely incorporate the technologies obtained via the A-IV and A-V missile tests.
On the other hand if the missile is already deployed in small numbers, then it could be a validation test from a production batch.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2012 19:09 
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regardless of all these counterforce arguments the fact remains there is no way anyone can track 100s of mobile TELARs for DF21 and DF31 over a vast landmess the size of china.

and to what end? we get all our cities smacked to the ground and in return under NFU, we take out a few chinese command posts and nuclear launchers? How dharmic and exactly what uncle ordered :roll:


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2012 19:33 
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^the reason we need good mid-course ABM smashers.. with a even better launch detection system. Space based longer range AESA radar is the need of this century, along with other optic, interferrometer and infra red sensors. we should be able launch multiple such mini radar sats that covers entire area of counter ops.

A5 can deliver those sats.. labs and universities can start working on them.. destroy the DFs in space must be the ideal way to do this., and that is where India will get the deemed respect in sci-tech community. the chippanda club can be destroyed in other fields.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2012 19:34 
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Quote:
mobile TELARs for DF21 and DF31


taking these out is precisely one of the roles of the B-2. However unkil is also looking at SAR and SBIRs sats combined with Prompt global strike modules for taking these out.

And also of course for taking out Russki stuff.


Remember Serdyukov made a statement not so long ago that by 2015 Yamrika may have the capability to take out Russki detergent with purely conventional means.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2012 19:45 
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any idea if unkill has space based missile launchers secretely? like mil mission in the name of supporting intl. space station yadi yada..?


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2012 19:53 
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no. but we can speculate about the capabilities of the X-37 and also the larger follow on which is in the works.

the X-37 is a USAF program so it is a mil mission anyway.

Oh and Unkil is looking to put PGS modules on US Subs as well under the DARPA ArcLight program.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2012 20:43 
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sanjaykumar wrote:
HMCS Endeavour is generally considered the first oceanographic mission and that was over 200 years ago.

That might be the case, but still it is widely practiced to use "ships of opportunity" to take measurements. A dedicated mission ship like in survey ships, requires planning and logistics which is of little use in observing emergent phenomena. Using ships of opportunity increases the inputs for a larger database.

Anyways, OT for this thread.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2012 21:04 
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arclight et al sounds good plan, but for terrorists and chippanda stealers, it would be easy job to assimilate. furthermore, there is a question of invading the civilian space of mil missions. not bad, if done securely, with civilian facilities on ships have no access whatsoever.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2012 21:07 
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Kanson, my point isn't with accuracy and CEPs, which form the conventional basis for asserting counterforce doctrines; I know we have accurate missiles. That sort of logic applied because both US and USSR had a large missile force. We do not. At least not, in relation to the Chinese. As Singha said, they have a fleet of silo-based, tunnel-protected , road and rail mobile DF-xx missiles pointed at us.

We are not in that league yet. The survivability of our deterrent isn't as assured as theirs (in comparison to us, not to US or Russia). Until such a time as we have the Arihant class going, canistered (i.e. mated) Tata/MAZ TELARs and IR covered canistered launchers with 100+ missiles operational, we cannot really assert an effective counterforce doctrine. Until then our position will remain 'how many cities are you willing to lose if you want to flatten us ?' In Mao's time that might actually not have worked because that madman was willing to lose half his population, but the current leadership is a little less unhinged...

Finally, counterforce can be viewed as sharpening your aim. It requires knowledge of how much the enemy has, and where it is (roughly). The SALT/START/XYZ agreements enabled those two participants to hone a counterforce approach through mutual understanding. Countervalue is easier and has readymade terror value. The Chinese can't pack up and move Beijing overnight to near Kashgar, like they can do with a bunch of DF-21 TELARs. The fact that the Chinese retain a policy of deliberate opacity regarding their arsenal with everyone essentially means that countervalue is the sole effective response to them.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2012 21:08 
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Singha wrote:
regardless of all these counterforce arguments the fact remains there is no way anyone can track 100s of mobile TELARs for DF21 and DF31 over a vast landmess the size of china.

and to what end? we get all our cities smacked to the ground and in return under NFU, we take out a few chinese command posts and nuclear launchers? How dharmic and exactly what uncle ordered :roll:


Even Unkil during Desert Storm couldn't find most of the Iraqi Scuds, inspite of having full air superiority and flying over the country at will. If we spend money on counterforce, Panda will spend much less money to make hundreds of decoy TELARs running all over the country.

I think ABM and Counterforce doctrines are way too expensive for India's current priorities. If the objective is to be the top nuclear power in Asia, sure we need these elements. But if the intention is to deter enemy nuclear attack, and be immune to nuclear blackmail, then having the A5 and the ability to burn down 100 Panda cities will serve the purpose.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2012 21:33 
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I have a basic question - to what end does the US propose attacking Russian or Chinese nuclear assets via conventional means?

supposing this attack were brilliantly and 100% successful does that mean that Rus/China cannot bring some more out of the basement and launch an attack? does that mean they are nook nood and permanent satellites of the US?

suppose it were 50% successful, wouldnt it be the start of WW2 when the rest 50% are launched under "use it or lose it" mode of thought.

in a pre-emptive attack on iran or noko it might have some use though, as they can destroy the smallish nuclear forces and "dare" noko/iran to get nuclear in response.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2012 22:06 
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D Roy wrote:

Remember Serdyukov made a statement not so long ago that by 2015 Yamrika may have the capability to take out Russki detergent with purely conventional means.


D Roy, can you provide a link for that? I did a quick Google search, but couldn't find anything. Thanks.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2012 22:19 
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bringing everyone on board to a common agreement is all about these treaties., and there is no guarantee for any force on land that they can 100% sure of cancelling a ballistic missile. So, even maasan setup is vulnerable.. and the reason, khaans and the ruskies are engaged.

the problem in our environemnt is chinese attrocities.. with chippand and paki clubbing to attack Indian democracy at the core, it is required to show the world that back off! or else, we have the capability too.

Now, they say, our capability is not matchable.. which is fine as of now, and the reason NFU stays.

Once we have equal capability, we become MAD, and sign up for treaties. logical end game.. but as we go ahead in to the future, capabilities will advance too.. so we need to leap frog under the NFU umbrella.

BTW, we don't need any treaties, weapons if everyone is SDRE.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2012 23:02 
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Singha wrote:
I have a basic question - to what end does the US propose attacking Russian or Chinese nuclear assets via conventional means?

supposing this attack were brilliantly and 100% successful does that mean that Rus/China cannot bring some more out of the basement and launch an attack? does that mean they are nook nood and permanent satellites of the US?

suppose it were 50% successful, wouldnt it be the start of WW2 when the rest 50% are launched under "use it or lose it" mode of thought.

in a pre-emptive attack on iran or noko it might have some use though, as they can destroy the smallish nuclear forces and "dare" noko/iran to get nuclear in response.


A 1984 book that delves into the whole MAD/counterforce/countervalue question:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=Zr2AhJTZzgIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=douglas+lackey&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZjKYT72oMIr30gGx6_TFBg&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=douglas%20lackey&f=false

Some takeaways:

1) Counterforce is of less use once the enemy can hide their missiles, or deploy SLBMs,. Depending on the population density, there is sometimes no difference between CF and CV. It made sense for the USA/USSR, with missile silos in isolated areas.

2) If a "clean" Counterforce first-strike succeeds with minimal civilian casualties, the rational thing for the struck side is to do nothing. The enemy needs to know that the response will NOT be rational. If the launch command responsibility is widely distributed, it is virtual certain that the response will not be rational. If only the top leader controls the nuclear button, there is more chance of a rational response.

3) Countervalue is true MAD, however it must be "Assured", in the mind of the enemy. Just having nukes is of no use, if the enemy has even the slightest hope of taking out most of your nukes. In fact, having vulnerable nukes is most destabilizing, worse than having no nukes.

4) NFU is purely for political consumption. No nation assumes that their NFU opponent will truly respect NFU.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2012 23:13 
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"No" does not become "Need", and hence I think NFU is valid, especially when we are in development phase, to detter. The word "Assured" has no meaning.. assurance to all citizens or for few survival boats. In true sense, even MAD is no use, unless there is an equal and opposite MAD available.

What is beauty of NFU is, that it can engage MAD.. and that is all we want now. Again, all in the perspective of "mutual" that would not make sense if there is nothing like that is going on between two or more parties.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2012 23:51 
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SOURCE: RIA Novosti
Quote:
Ukraine is close to signing one of its biggest ever defense deals for air-to-air missiles with India, according to Russian media reports.

Nezavisimaya Gazeta says the deal for R-27 missiles, worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, is in the final stages and is waiting for approval from the Ukrainian leadership.

The Vympel R-27 (AA-10 Alamo) missile is a medium-to-long-range air-to-air missile developed by the Soviet Union. It is similar to U.S. AIM-7 Sparrow.

The missile comes in infrared-homing (R-27T), semi-active-radar-homing (R-27R), and active-radar-homing (R-27AE) versions. It would be fitted to India’s MiG-29, Su-27 and Su-30 fighter jets.

While the deal has not been confirmed officially, the paper quotes a source close to Ukraine’s national security and defense council, saying both nations are sensitive to Russian concerns over the deal and want to make sure that it would not irritate Moscow.


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2012 00:14 
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gotta be careful with ukaraine.. they do go pally with pakis and chips.


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2012 00:23 
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keshavchandra wrote:
SOURCE: RIA Novosti
Quote:
Ukraine is close to signing one of its biggest ever defense deals for air-to-air missiles with India, according to Russian media reports.

Nezavisimaya Gazeta says the deal for R-27 missiles, worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, is in the final stages and is waiting for approval from the Ukrainian leadership.

...

This makes no sense. The R-27 is a relic. We should be buying more R-77s, especially now that the Mig-29s will also be able to fire them.


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2012 00:44 
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Russki fear might be:

PGS takes out 50-80 percent of deployment by conventional only means.

circumvents perimeter/dead hand in the process.

pgs weapons also make sure that "cave" entrances are blocked.

anything else is taken out by Yamrika's ABM interceptors.

Rus is responding with Bulava and Borei. and Layner. Rus may also put 5000 km range cruise missiles on Yasen.

On the defensive side - with Mig 31 armed with new LRAAM. Also some elements of S-500.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the case of Chicom- their numbers are far less than russki, so both PGS and Yamriki ABM become more menacing for them.

Chicom has responded with the underground nuclear great wall. May also be moving towards very long range cruise missiles.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

nevertheless i think PGS use is more likely in some conventional conflict with chicom. likely targets would be chicom OTH, IADS elements and DF-21D launchers.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Avrachan,

It is a dated piece of news.

I think I read it of a Russian site. But rest assured the Russkis publicly express great worry about prompt global strike.


Last edited by D Roy on 26 Apr 2012 01:14, edited 5 times in total.

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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2012 00:45 
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R-27 is a relic

new seeker.


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2012 00:58 
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Fewer missiles make it tough for IAF to secure Indian Akash


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2012 01:04 
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^^pressure build up, and this is all could be leading to buy firang maal.

create a short supply, build pressure
fail on delivery, and come up with interim plan
buy firang, and make the middle men happy
ddm writers get the cut


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2012 04:56 
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A5 RV flight at Mach 24 was quite challenging. Look at the failure report of massa's experiment. The heat shield stripped off either due to erosion or adhesive failure.

India needs low CEP to compensate for yields. Counterforce doctrine is a mirage and being promoted by MUTUs.


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2012 06:14 
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nachiket wrote:
This makes no sense. The R-27 is a relic. We should be buying more R-77s, especially now that the Mig-29s will also be able to fire them.


R-27 to Ukraine, so they do not provide support to TSP and R-77 to Russia, so they do not provide support to China.


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2012 07:43 
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not sure how unkil plans to deliver prompt global strike, but in the days when people were floating ideas of conventionally armed Tridents being used, Putin put an end to that line of thought saying the moment his satellites or radars see inbound ICBMs he has no way to verify their payload and will immediately press the red button for a nuclear counterstrike.


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2012 08:03 
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Ramana wrote:
Counterforce doctrine is a mirage and being promoted by MUTUs.


The game theory behind that is this. IF you have an overwhelming size of your arsenal, and you are able to do a precise counter force, the rational response from the target will be to do nothing and you have dominance over them while escalating .

So, really the reason why the Former Soviet Union and the US stock piled that incredible number of warheads is this.. It was basically second strike deterrence .

In Inglees, it means..

Quote:
We will launch a limited first strike against you, to take out your testimonials and leave you emasculated, but if you are logical, you will not retaliate because you are still alive and not going to be killed. However, if you do retaliate, we will return the fire with overwhelming force and make you glow green in the night forever without the need of any lamps


This works perfectly fine if you have an opponent with a small arsenal and he is rational. So the response from the opponent is not to be "rational" and threaten to escalate to inflict atleast an unacceptable damage so that you dont do first strike.

This kind of convoluted logic while fine in game theory models and deterrence to escalation like all math models rests on assumptions of "logical", "fairness" and all that rubbish. Just like the real world doesn't readily fit math models, this too might not fit real world. There is every incentive for any player not to act rationally , esp if you are the weaker power!

In fact, given the FSU's lead in missiles and warheads, the US intentionally acted "irrationally" for a long long time until they could get parity. The US were the Pakis in that game.


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2012 08:57 
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I so love the sound and sight of SS18's taking off over a strong morning cup of coffee. a true behemoth of PSLV size, tons of throw weight anywhere in the globe, black painted....kind of like a large dog running out of its kennel shouting "so you want a piece of me huh?"

whatever be their faults the soviets defined the rulebook in how to make big ugly intimidating stuff.


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2012 09:13 
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nachiket wrote:
This makes no sense. The R-27 is a relic. We should be buying more R-77s, especially now that the Mig-29s will also be able to fire them.


Not so fast, notice they mention the AE (active homer). The R27IR and AE has decent range (and can be used in excess of 100km). It is heavier and behind in terms of propulsion and seekers, however, if they have managed to stick a new seeker, both IR and AR, it could be a worthy purchase.

I don't know much about these things, but I am not sure if SARHs are entirely useless even today. Might be a good idea if you can paint and maintain lock over long distances with a hyper-powerful radar like the BARS. Enemy might not even know if an AAM is close since there won't be a warning in the terminal stage (unlike AR AAMs when their seekers acquire targets). As of now I think the issue is that missiles don't have the legs to match radar acquisition ranges, however, if you can fire even a couple of semi active missiles at around 100+ km, you might be able to keep the enemy on the defensive allowing your fighters (the ones not painting) to get on the offensive and position themselves for better chances.

Further, here is something interesting from Wiki:

Quote:
The global positioning system allows a missile to reach the predicted intercept with no datalink, greatly increasing lethality by postponing illumination for most of the missile flight. The pilot is unaware that a launch has occurred, so flying techniques become almost irrelevant.


CM


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2012 09:18 
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ramana wrote:
A5 RV flight at Mach 24 was quite challenging. Look at the failure report of massa's experiment. The heat shield stripped off either due to erosion or adhesive failure.

India needs low CEP to compensate for yields. Counterforce doctrine is a mirage and being promoted by MUTUs.


Guruji, what is mutu? But the counterforce doctrine is bakwas, didn't work then, won't now. India's stance should be overwhelming force. NFU is fine but only if it is backed up with MAD. Basic idea ought to be, "you use even a small phataka, we will blow you to smoke". I would think that for deterrence, at least such a posture is required, what happens in reality though is altogether another matter that none can really predict.


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2012 09:32 
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mutu - more uncley than uncle.


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2012 09:44 
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Cain Marko, Exactly. If India goes down no one else should get up.

The A5 Tessy with its accurate warhead and high yield does the job. Take into consideration the fact that modern urban areas are dense packed and are concrete jungles with potential to exceed WWII Japanese casualties.
Vina, India with the NFU and accurate precision strike nukes also has a similar logic to what you stated. IOW its de-facto post counterforce.


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