Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2012

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 May 2012 21:45

I think it was before Ayub Khan, more precisely right after Liaqat Ali Khan that relations with US became a priority.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 01 May 2012 23:13

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan%E ... _relations

In 1950-53, a flurry of Pakistan's state delegation paid visit to the U.S., initially seeking military aid rather than civilian.[8] Prime Minister Liaqat Ali Khan, Huseyn Suhravardie, Army commander Ayub Khan, Foreign Minister Sir Zafrullah Khan, Foreign Secretary Ikram-ullah Khan, Finance Minister Ghulam Muhammad, Defense Secretary Sikander Mirza, and special envoy Mir Laiq Ali made U.S visits with the main intention of getting military aid. Controversially, there was neither an organized, coordinated, nor institutional effort nor any attempt made to study the U.S. decision-making process to achieve the goal.[8]

The U.S. interest in Pakistan grew after realizing the importance of Pakistan Armed Forces, which was seen as potential partners against the communism, not the political leadership. That is why, when Prime minister Huseyn Suhravardie made a frequent trip to U.S., the importance was not given to him but his Army commander Ayub Khan.[8] Furthermore, the relations gradually went down with people-elected president Iskander Mirza, leading to military coup against him in 1958. After successfully leading the of the military coup d'état in 1958, Ayub Khan quickly visit the U.S., stressing that armed forces are the strongest element.[8]

The Sovet activites increased after 1954 and this made US interested in Pakistan for agency activities.
The US was afraid of Pakistan tilting towards Soviets and made sure that the right leadership freindly to US was present.

Pakistan joined the US-led military alliances SEATO and CENTO. In 1954 the United States signed a Mutual Defense Assistance Agreement with Pakistan. Under Ayub Khan, Pakistan enjoyed a strong and healthy relationship with the United States. Pakistan had aligned itself with the United States during the Cold War, rather than with the Soviet Union. Khan's government also provided a secret military base to United States. The 1960s era was perhaps most enjoyable and fond relationships enjoyed both by the United States and Pakistan. This 1960s era, Pakistan and her people were the most pro-American nation where the U.S. image was more positive than any other nation at that time. In 1961, Khan paid a state visit to the United States, accompanied by his daughter Begum Nasir Akhtar Aurangzeb. Highlights of the trip included a state dinner at Mount Vernon, a visit to the Islamic Center of Washington, and a ticker tape parade in New York City.[10]
In 1954, Ayub Khan had famously told Brigadier-General Henry A. Byroade and the United States that "I didn’t come here to look at barracks. Our army can be your army if you want us. But let’s make a decision".[8] In 1960, Ayub Khan gave approval to U.S. to fly a spy mission to Soviet Union, knowing the aftermath of the mission, Ayub Khan was fully aware of the operation.[8] On May 1960, the U-2 incident took place, capturing its pilot Gary Powers was captured.[8] The CIA notified Ayub Khan of the incident when he was in London for a state visit, he shrugged his shoulders and said that he had expected this would happen at some point.[8] According the General Khalid Mahmud Arif, this incident "severely compromised Pakistan security" and brought the Soviet ire on Pakistan.[8] "Pakistan felt deceived because the US had kept her in the dark about such clandestine spy operations launched from Pakistan’s territory", quoted by General Arif.[8]

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 01 May 2012 23:23

Brad Goodman wrote:Railway track blown up in southwestern Pakistan

A rail track has been exploded in Pakistani city of Quetta in southwestern Balochistan province as two attacks hit northwest part of the country, Press TV reports.

Waste of IE'D's really given that there are no locomotives with engines that are going to be plying on those tracks.
I think the oppressed Balochs must concentrate on gas pipelines and power transformers that feed the consumers in Pakjab apart from the land bridges that help pajis move their genocidal fauj into Balochistan.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 May 2012 23:32

Acharya, If you read the book "Games of nations" by Miles Copeland the author writes that US practised coups in Middle East with the first one in Syria. Rethinking about Ayub Khan's actions in 1958, maybe he got green light from massa to stage the coup? It might be useful to list all the global coups in the decade of 1950s to mid 60s to see what was common and who was removed?

Recall he was the Army Commander when Maj Gen Akbar Khan tried to stage a coup and got indicted in the trial that followed. Ayub Khan suppressed the coup attempt and got the perpetrators arrested and tried.
So why did he change? What was different between Akbar Khan's time and Ayub Khan's time?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akbar_Khan ... i_general)

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 01 May 2012 23:43

What was different between Akbar Khan's time and Ayub Khan's time?

1958 was different from 1948

Close to President Iskander Mirza, General Khan remained staunch supporter of President's decision to declare martial law in 1958, and in return, President Mirza appointed him as country's first chief martial law administrator to enforce his martial law in the country.[5] However very shortly, he turned his back on the President, overthrew the ruling elected President Mirza and installed himself as the President as well as the military dictator.[1][6][5] Soon, he handed over the command of Pakistan Army to general Musa Khan, but appointed and upgraded himself to five-star rank in 1958.[1]

1958 was a period of intense Soviet activity and Pakistan was frontline state. India has held the second successfuly general election in 1957 and JLN had stabilized Indian democracy sealing the future of India and Kashmir.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 02 May 2012 00:01

shiv wrote:
Roperia wrote: Jats in Islamic History
Roperia - some parts of that article are setting my bullshit meter ringing loudly - and those parts look like an apology for Islamic murderers and an attempt to connect Jats directly with Muhammad (peace be upon us)

According to a Hadith, Abdulla Bin Masood, a companion of the Islamic prophet Muhammad saw some strangers with Muhammad and said that their features and physique were like those of Jats.[35] This indicates that Jats may have been in Arabia even during Muhammad's time.

Sind had a large Buddhist population at this time but the ruler, Dahir, followed Brahminism, and to te Arabs was a Brahmin. It is said that the Buddhists been receiving constant information from their co-religionists in Afghanistan and Turkistan about the liberal treatment meted out to them by the Arab conquerors of those regions
First time I have heard of that...

The first one is a twist and a lie. The actual hadith refers to "al-Hind" - the generic name given to India [Arabs of the period distinguished between Sindh the kingdom and India as a realm -contrary to the lies claimed by the Thaparites]. So if at all the founder was referring to - it wa snot to Jats - but Indians.

The second one is flatulence explosion. Chachnama - the only one of its kind from the Islamist side earlier than others who quoted from it, is available in the public domain. It has no such news being passed from the north. Actually - the news from the north would be dismal and horrifying, with the stories of university and merchant townships dominated by buddhists being torched and people enslaved all across south-east Iran and Tajikistan-AFG border.

Moreover - the Buddhists who collaborated with Qasim - are clearly shown in the narrative as urban, rich and mercantiles - who tried to convince ordinary people of various towns to side with Qasim and who were rebuffed. Most towns still rejected the Buddhist elite's urgings and prepared to fight - thereby disproving that the lay people were mostly Buddhist. Chachnama also mentions that some Jats joined Qasim who were already of the "raiding kind". This might simply mean the criminals or robber bands expelled by their respective societies and the book also mentions that other Jats opposed Qasim.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 02 May 2012 05:26

Lyari, sunn Baat hamari, Tuu lagge Barri Pyarri,Lgga de Poajabi ki Barri

KARACHI: Sindh home ministry on Tuesday announced bounty on most wanted criminals of the troubled Lyari neighbourhood of Karachi, DawnNews reported.
According to a notification issued by the ministry, head money of Rs 2 million on Uzair Baloch, Rs 3 million on Baba Ladla, Rs 1.6 million on Ibrahim Katchi, Rs 1.5 million on Rashid Rekha and Rs 2 million on Zaman Mehsud has been declared for capturing them dead or alive.On the other hand, the government of Sindh has offered surrendering option to gangsters belonging to the banned People’s Aman Committee (PAC) who are putting up tough resistance in the ongoing “grand operation” for last five days.Sindh Information Minister Shazia Marri has said that the option was up for grabs for the criminals who would put down their arms and cooperate with the government.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 02 May 2012 05:33

Poaqs look roach from Somalia Loak?
TFTA rahe na Humm, SDRE banne Na Humm
Bann Ke Gaddha, Paaye Sajja,
Jiye Yaanha, GUBO owr Dhittkaar Sei.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 02 May 2012 05:41

wrt to paki-uncle close relationships-
IMO,
A) fear of India
B ) early leaders of pakistan being anti communists helped a lot.

some of them are--
1) India already decided against relations with either superpowers at that time. were busy thinking of NAM (established much later).
paki is nothing but anti India-- they do the opposite of what India does.
2) Liaqat ali khan was against communists and suppressed them. he was pro west.
3) soviets were one of the first off the blocks to have pakistan in their hold but liaqat was stauchly anti communist which helped uncle greatly till the relations blossomed later under ayub khan.
4) even from the beginning of the relationship pakis wanted military aid rather than economic aid and kashmir help showing that Indian fear was paramount in their mindset.
5) uncle wanted India and pakistan in their orbit. But India went the NAM way creating immense takleef to uncle. India was a lost case for uncle, hence pakistan became paramount in view of soviets influence in the area. Even today India uncle relationship is bedevilled with lot of mistrust and suspicions unlike pakis guboing uncle and vice versa.

with strategic anal-ysts having field day in th media.

wonder what would have been the history if JLN went with uncle rather than NAM.

In fact India has a great landmass in great location-- check the Indian map in IOR .

pakistan is poor second in this location.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 02 May 2012 05:54

Waadha Tera Waadha, Waddhe Pei Teerre Trust Na Karre, We know You true Haramzaddha
Siachen and India
Sha mshad Ah mad

But ignorance-based utopian calls for unilateral withdrawal from Siachen are totally uncalled-for. Those who were harping on the withdrawal theme either did not know or just didn’t want to know that it is not Pakistan which introduced the military dimension to the problem. It is the other side which did that by occupying the Pakistan-controlled Siachen sector making this the world’s highest battlefield and a virtual hell.
The Siachen saga began on April 13, 1984, with the Indian army surreptitiously launching a military operation codenamed “Meghdoot” and occupying unmanned positions overlooking key passes in the Saltoro Range. Since 1947, this undelineated area west of Point NJ 9842 of the Ceasefire Line/Line of Control and the Karakorum Pass had been under Pakistan’s control with mountaineering and trekking expeditions always obtaining authorisation from the government of Pakistan. All world maps and atlases clearly showed the Line of Control running northeastwards straight from NJ 9842 to the Karakoram Pass with the Siachen Glacier inside Pakistan But it got away with those violations. In fact, in addition to Siachen, other lost grounds also remain in India’s forcible custody, including a large chunk of Pakistan’s territory in Chorbat La sector which it occupied in 1972 and several other posts in Qamar sector in 1988. All these facts are known to the world and yet India’s military muscle is being bolstered against China.
Once India militarised the region, Pakistan had no choice but to maintain its own military presence there. Pakistan’s efforts to wrest control of the occupied area could not succeed because, being at relatively lower altitudes, it was at a handicap to retake the occupied positions. Since then our army has been able to ensure that that the Indians do not advance any further. In other worlds, India is obstinately maintaining that line beyond NJ 9842 must be delineated before disengagement and negotiations. This was its position even at the 12th round of Siachen talks in 2011 whereas Pakistan made every effort for bridging the gaps on redeployment and the disengagement process. Dialogue and engagement remain the only acceptable means of resolving disputes today, but it seems we will have to continue to pay the price for India’s stubbornness.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 02 May 2012 05:58

krisna wrote:

wonder what would have been the history if JLN went with uncle rather than NAM.

.

Illegal bangladeshies in India speaking in an american accent??

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 May 2012 08:37

cross post

ramana wrote:Shiv, Another way of saying it is the British engineered Partition speeded-up the Islamization of West Punjab.
Was it willful or just happenstance after all those surveys and assessments over decades?

That is an interesting point ramana and at this juncture I can't say yes or no, -I'm just looking for more data and points such as the one you make just open up another area that I will explore. The point is - assuming what you say is correct, I want to look at specific moves/legislation "on the ground" that aided that speeding up of islamization. That detail just helps me collect the data that I want and the detail I need to fill up gaps.

I started this quest initially to see if there was a link between the popularity of the JuD/LeT today and the percentage of low caste Muslims without land ownership in Pakjab. After a week and 20 serious references later I am no longer sure is that is either true or what I need to be looking at. From what i have found, after 1947 - about 40 of Pakjabis were high caste with Jats as a dominant group - but others too, including Rajputs and "foreign high caste" like Sayyed. About 20-30% were low caste "Kamis" and others. But the problem is that Pakistan has always under-reported the number of low caste and Arzal (Muslim untouchable) people because when a census is held in land owned by a feudal, the census takers can't go into the land - they merely ask the land owner to give an estimate. That is how Pakistan's low caste and population has been under-reported all these decades.

Apparently Hindus and Sikhs vacated about 1.3 million acres of land in Pakjab, and 800,000 of those acres was occupied by existing powerful landowners in Pakjab - the existing Muslim high castes, possible predominantly Jats because of their traditional agriculturist occupation.

The British themselves actually entered Sindh and got control of Punjab only around 1840 to 1850 - a mere 100 years before they left. Ranjit Singh's empire was taken over only in 1845 - a mere 9 years before Macaulay's minute and 12 years before the 1857 war of independence.

After 1857, the British showed a preference employing Pakjabis and Pashtuns over other Indian in the army. I have read (I will look again) that the British had a policy of gifting tracts of land to loyal soldiers to keep their loyalty and that would definitely have favored the loyal Mussalman of the Northwest.

The links I posted above about "impure Muslims cleaning idols" was from the 1881 census of India available online. Earlier I had posted links from a book that my grandfather had that has quotes from the 1901 census and also shows how racist theories of the superior white races were accepted as normal by 1901. Rudyard Kipling wrote "White Man's Burden" and "Gunga Din" around 1890. Clearly then the British, in the 1860 to 1900 period were finding the people of the North West as loyal servants. they also believed that the fairer complexion was better, and they furthermore understood Islam better as opposed to the mysterious heathen Hindoos with their many armed gods.

So even if the British did not deliberately put Islamism ahead from 1850 to 1900, their attitudes and the servility of the north-west Mussalman made them favor the placement of the loyal Northwest mussalman over the treacherous Hindoo. Of course after 1918, when the Caliphate was demolished by the same Brits, they became conscious of the need to mollify Islamic sentiment. Gandhi by then was doing exactly the opposite by trying to cooperate with Indian muslims to support the re establishment of Khilafat as a ploy to unite Hindus and Muslims. Clearly the British must have found it convenient to kill Gandhi's game by playing up the differences between the fair, martial loyal Mussalman versus the scheming bania Gandhi and the devious brahmin Nerhu.

But the data I am looking for is exactly what made the people of the Punjab switch religion from Hindu, to Buddhist to Muslim until the Sikh Gurus gave them some spine and created the proudest empire out of Punjab. In the absence of the Sikhs, or alternatively if the British had time to proselytise, maybe Pakjab would have been Christian by now, given the history of the people there.

Will cross post to evoke more opinions/views.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 02 May 2012 10:08

Poaqrail Tuu fail fail, Nahi India se teraa maile maile

The dwindling sustainability of Pakistan Railways (PR) continues to be of great concern to the pride of Pakistani people in general and causes a serious dent in the image of Pakistani management prowess in particular. While the PR operations shrink with each passing day, across the border in India, the Indian Railways in contrast is hailed as the largest national employer that not only posts a healthy yearly profit, but has also been successful in expanding and improving its services over time. ( Time for Lalu to Move to Lyalpur) A culture laden with dodgy deals, half-baked initiatives like those of the business train (good in theory, but poorly implemented), route privatisation, partial outsourcing to overcome glaring inefficiencies, and a complete lack of discipline that invariably leads to strikes, project delays, vandalism, theft and security breaches like the one we, unfortunately, saw at the Lahore railway station last week, are all elements that issue a stark warning that this great asset of the country is be being pushed to the brink of closure!
According to the recently announced Indian budget, their railways is set to expand annually by nearly Indian Rs1.50 lakh crore (whatever this mega number computes to as my maths has become weak by not being exposed to such figures in Pakistan and by the way, approximately double it to arrive at an equivalent number in Pakistani Rupees). It will become an even more productive revenue earner for the Indian exchequer by, in addition, paying a newly levied service tax from the new fiscal year. However, the Indian Railways management wants more and is still not satisfied with the announced pace of the expansion plan. They feel that the potential to grow is much more and they have with them concrete proposals, which can see the growth of their railways at double than what the Indian government has presently ascertained. Ironically, the debate at our end is instead about survival and curtailment with organisational

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 02 May 2012 10:15

Sindh Cry for Hind
15 blasts in Sindh cities injure six

HYDERABAD: At least six people including a policeman were injured when more than fifteen blasts rocked various cities of Sindh on Wednesday, Geo News reported.Four blasts targeted the ATM machines of National Bank in Anaj Mandi, Fatima Jinnah Road, Naseem Nagar and Latifabad No.7 of Hyderabad early morning. All the blasts occurred outside the National Bank branches in Hyderabad.Blasts also rocked Kotri, Dadu, Badin, Sukkur, Nawabshah and Qazi Ahmed areas of Sindh. One out of two expolsions occurred outside a bank in Larkana. At least six people including a policeman were injured in multiple blasts who were transferred to hospital for medical treatment.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 02 May 2012 10:31

Gushing water brings devotees, visitors to bin Laden compound

http://tribune.com.pk/story/372856/gush ... -compound/

“There is some spirituality about this place since water keeps gushing forth without the use of an electric motor,” said Omar Khan, a resident of Abbottabad.
It’s a miracle that water gushes forth like a spring because those killed at this place were innocent people, Khan says.
While he does not necessarily believe that those killed in the raid were bin Laden, his couriers and son, he says those killed were “some innocent Muslims” nonetheless.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 May 2012 10:48

Folks here is a very interesting and archivable document about how Punjab got populated in britush times and how and where land went to Muslims, Sikhs or Hindus. You can read the document for details, but I will post some comments after a quick read that i did. I don't know the geography of Punjab well enough to re read the document without a map for cross reference.

http://cmer.lums.edu.pk/upload/Sikh_Set ... Punjab.pdf

Fundamentally the regions of Punjab between the rivers ("Doab" - do+ab - two+water (Persian)) was wasteland that was not cultivated or cultivable. From the 1880s the British built canals that made the land fertile and then followed specific policies (as detailed in the article) of how this newly irrigated land would be sold - to specific groups whom the British felt would be useful.

Typically the land was not given to the poor or to people who had no history of experience in agriculture. the land went mostly to clans/castes that already owned land. Most of it went to local Muslims - possibly Jats but much of it was bought by Sikhs and Hindus as well. Other policies followed by the Brits for sale of land was (later) - selling land to those who could raise horses needed by the army, the one-off sale of land to "low caste" Mazhar Sikhs who had a reputation of being rebellious, and the sale of Punjab land to ex-army Indians. It appears that Punjab was essentially colonized and settled by immigrants after 1880. That leads to certain other conclusions - but I will come to that later - no time now.

disha · Post by **disha** » 02 May 2012 10:53

shiv wrote: I don't know the geography of Punjab well enough to re read the document without a map for cross reference.

I am sure you would have a better map in your hands by now, however in case you need one: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... ba_Map.jpg

Another, without the doab region but with important landmarks : http://www.sikhiwiki.org/images/2/2c/Map_rivers.jpg

Added later:

Indian Doab: Region between Sutlej and Beas

PakJabi Doab: Region between Ravi and Chenab

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 02 May 2012 10:54

Zafar Hilaly's column's last line is a gem

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-9 ... fghanistan

Allowing ourselves to be seduced by America was bad enough but getting raped on its account is intolerable’

.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 02 May 2012 11:53

Jhujar wrote:Sindh Cry for Hind
15 blasts in Sindh cities injure six

...

Update on that, Yawn reports -

...
Citizens came under the grip of fear and panic as a result of the blasts whereas security forces were on alert and deployed on sensitive installations across the province.

...

Buildings around the blast sites suffered partial damage with their windows and doors ripped apart as a result of the explosions.

Police found pamphlets belonging to the separatist organisation Sindhu Desh Liberation Army (SDLA) near the targeted ATM on Hyderabad’s Fatima Jinnah Road Branch.

...

Earlier in November 2011, railway tracks had been targeted in various cities of Sindh. Police had found similar pamphlets on the site of attacks.

If a full fledged insurgency starts in Sindh (which is unlikely as long as PPP is in power or in a prominent role in national politics), the Punjabi mussalman will be fighting serious insurgencies in 3 of the 4 provinces of Jinnah's dream while training India-specific terrorists in Punjab and PoK simultaneously. That situation will be more untenable for the Pak-jabi!

Nandu · Post by **Nandu** » 02 May 2012 12:13

Claims bin Laden visited a tribal elder in Waziristan exactly a year before his death, implying that he was not confined to his Abbotabad house, but could move about in Paki-land without having to worry about any of the Paki security forces.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17907764

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 02 May 2012 13:08

Anujan wrote:Gushing water brings devotees, visitors to bin Laden compound
http://tribune.com.pk/story/372856/gush ... -compound/

“There is some spirituality about this place since water keeps gushing forth without the use of an electric motor,” said Omar Khan, a resident of Abbottabad.
It’s a miracle that water gushes forth like a spring because those killed at this place were innocent people, Khan says.
While he does not necessarily believe that those killed in the raid were bin Laden, his couriers and son, he says those killed were “some innocent Muslims” nonetheless.

I bet they accidentally punctured a public sewer pipe when destroying the bin Laden compound. Therefore when a neighbor flushes their toilet, the gushing water suddenly appears. Scary part is the picture shows the locals indulging in it like it is zam-zam cola. I predict that next week's headline will read: "Cholera outbreak in Abbotabad"

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 02 May 2012 13:18

I bet they accidentally punctured a public sewer pipe when destroying the bin Laden compound. Therefore when a neighbor flushes their toilet

Exactly what i was thinking. Finding 'Zam Zam' in Seweristan, no surprise.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 02 May 2012 13:28

^^^ some learned mullah needs to look into this, sounds suspiciously like idol worshipping to me!!

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 02 May 2012 13:46

Anujan wrote:Zafar Hilaly's column's last line is a gem

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-9 ... fghanistan

Allowing ourselves to be seduced by America was bad enough but getting raped on its account is intolerable’
.

When other nations post independence or after WW2 decided on different ways to develop themselves economically, in terms of universal education, skill development, export led growth etc, our cousins across the border came up with an unorthodox solution of developing faster. ie, selling their geo strategic position to the highest bidder for gains social, economical and political. A solution that could have risen, only in the mind of an oligarchic elite.

Pakistan has benefited from that position, both in economic and military ways. but the policy has had some very serious side effects, the number one being, the rapid influx of Pashtuns into both Peshawar and Karachi. This was a serious strategic mistake on the part if zia. one that would split Pakistan, into two, a Punjab and sindh on one hand and the KP and Baluchistan on the other.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 02 May 2012 14:50

shiv wrote:Folks here is a very interesting and archivable document about how Punjab got populated in britush times and how and where land went to Muslims, Sikhs or Hindus. You can read the document for details, but I will post some comments after a quick read that i did. I don't know the geography of Punjab well enough to re read the document without a map for cross reference.

http://cmer.lums.edu.pk/upload/Sikh_Set ... Punjab.pdf

Fundamentally the regions of Punjab between the rivers ("Doab" - do+ab - two+water (Persian)) was wasteland that was not cultivated or cultivable. From the 1880s the British built canals that made the land fertile and then followed specific policies (as detailed in the article) of how this newly irrigated land would be sold - to specific groups whom the British felt would be useful.

Typically the land was not given to the poor or to people who had no history of experience in agriculture. the land went mostly to clans/castes that already owned land. Most of it went to local Muslims - possibly Jats but much of it was bought by Sikhs and Hindus as well. Other policies followed by the Brits for sale of land was (later) - selling land to those who could raise horses needed by the army, the one-off sale of land to "low caste" Mazhar Sikhs who had a reputation of being rebellious, and the sale of Punjab land to ex-army Indians. It appears that Punjab was essentially colonized and settled by immigrants after 1880. That leads to certain other conclusions - but I will come to that later - no time now.

If you want to get a personal account of Punjab, the book by Prakash Lal Tandon, "The Punjabi Century" is considered a classic. Tandon was one of the early CEO's free India, helped set up IIM-Ahmadabad. He talks of what the Punjab of 1840's looked like, the forests, the jungles, the people and their mores. It is clear from his account that Punjab had few cities and lots of forest in between.

British did a massive cutting down of forests, and making that land cultivable. Then they settled colonies and made small cities. They created cities and named them after British names: Montgomery (now Sahiwal), Lyallpur (Sir Lyall + pur, now Faisalabad after KSA king), Abbatabad etc. Different narratives exist, as is common in India, regarding this land grants. Muslim accounts (as the one you posted) decry land grants to Sikhs (... "30 Khatri families of Rawalpindi got 40% of all land ..."). Jat Sikh accounts talk of how hard-working Jats made those farms fertile. Many of them did go to ex-military men--classic example of using India's resources to reward their own employees.

There is an aspect of this cutting forsts, making canals, and settling this area which does not quite add up. Surely Punjab was not the only forested area in India. Such massive eliminations of forests is suspicious. I don't have proof, but a strong suspicion that it was done to break the Sikhs. The traditional Sikh way of fighting the Moghuls had the jungles as a critical element to hide and carry out guerilla warfare. Just as the terrain of A'stan is essential to their ability to resist invaders, the ability of the Sikhs to resist oppressive regimes was tied to the forests. Punjab, of course, does not really have terrain suitable for Sikh/Afghan syle insurgencies, but it had forests where the Khalsa would retire, hide, rejuvenate, pray, meditate, meet, plan. The Sikh fight against British took a big hit by these change of terrain (which changed in a matter of decades).

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 02 May 2012 14:57

Also check out: http://dawn.com/2012/02/13/demystifying ... hierarchy/

There are town named by British, now in TSP, such as Chak-22, Chak 39 etc. Such clumsy names come only by the invaders naming things their way.

wig · Post by **wig** » 02 May 2012 16:24

wikipedia has a write up on Sir Ganga Ram and how he developed some areas in The Punjab

In 1873, after a brief Service in Punjab P.W.D devoted himself to practical farming. He obtained on lease from Government 50,000 acres (200 km²) of barren, unirrigated land in Montgomery District, and within three years converted that vast desert into smiling fields, irrigated by water lifted by a hydroelectric plant and running through a thousand miles of irrigation channels, all constructed at his own cost.

and

He was a promising agriculturist, too. He purchased thousands acres of barren land in Lyallpur (now Faisalabad) on lease and by using engineering skills and modern irrigation methods, turned the arid lands into fertile fields.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganga_Ram

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 02 May 2012 16:37

Some information on Punjab.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Punjabdoabs1.jpg

The Punjab Doabs
A map of the Punjab region ca. 1947 showing the different doabs.Each of the tracts of land lying between the confluent rivers of the Punjab region of Pakistan and India (the Indus basin) has a distinct name, said to have been coined by Raja Todar Mal, a minister of the Mughal emperor Akbar. The names (except for 'Sindh Sagar') are a combination of the first letters, in the Persian alphabet, of the names of the rivers that bound the Doab. For example, Jech = 'Je'(Jhelum) + 'Ch'(Chenab). The names are (from west to east):

Sind Sagar Doab - lies between the Indus and Jhelum River rivers.(Developed after the bulldozer arrived in the 1950s)
Jech Doab (also Chaj) Doab - between the Jhelum and the Chenab River.
Rechna Doab - between the Chenab and the Ravi River. (Developed after British established Canal colonies but particularly after 1947).The largest in Punjab, now in Pakjab
Bari Doab or Majha - between the Ravi and the Beas River. The heart of jutt sikh punjab.Here cultivation has existed from time immemorial.bari means 'rainfed' I think.The monsoon reaches till this region of Central Punjab.The jutt sikhs went from here to Lyallpur,Sahiwal to cultivate the barren lands in West Punjab during British rule
Bist Doab (also Jullundur Doab or Doaba) - between the Beas and the Sutlej River.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doab

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 02 May 2012 17:03

ArmenT wrote:I predict that next week's headline will read: "Cholera outbreak in Abbotabad"

Or, "Local Muslims Cured of Skin Diseases and Other Ailments by Mysterious Water of Life. Allah be praised."

Rajdeep · Post by **Rajdeep** » 02 May 2012 18:49

Ali Zafar to receive the Dadasaheb Phalke Award

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ente ... 963620.cms

With three consecutive hit movies in a row, Pakistan singer turned singer Ali Zafar has earned himself immense respect and goodwill in Bollywood over just two years. The actor will be receiving this year the most prestigious Dadasaheb Phalke academy award at Mumbai on 3rd May.

????

????

Whos next in line Poonam Pandey ?

or maybe shah mah'mad' qureshi , for his very ramleela'esque acting during press conferences.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 02 May 2012 18:52

Rajdeepji,
Its the Dadasaheb Phalke Academy Award.Toilet true to form.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 02 May 2012 19:23

There are town named by British, now in TSP, such as Chak-22, Chak 39 etc. Such clumsy names come only by the invaders naming things their way.

My own great-great grandfather inherited the land at Narowal (Sialkote district) but his son who served in British Army got "20 Murabbe" i.e. 1 Murabba == 25 acres of land at Chak no. 271 (now called Samundari which is very close to Lyallpur)., I believe another famous person who was in charge of "postoffice" was father of Prithviraj Kapoor who got Murabbe at Chak no. 27n? or so (very close to my great-grand father land, this was confirmed by the Late Shammi Kapoor himself to me).

Chak means "land that needs to be fixed or made cultivatable" no. is just a number.

On my mother side too!! Same story!

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 02 May 2012 19:47

Taliban are Pak Army proxies, not Pashtun nationalists - IV ---- Farhat Taj

Such authors also seem to imply that from the Pashtun perspective, a foreign invader always means a non-Muslim invader. Thus the entire narrative presents a homogeneous picture of the wider Pashtun society (a large complicated patchwork of tribes, sub-tribes, clans and sub-clans) that is devoid of internal dissent, contestation and ambiguity that can be expected in any human society in the world. On one hand they claim that the Pashtun are fiercely independent, and on the other hand they assume absolute unanimity of opinion among the 'fiercely independent' people in terms of their response to foreign states. This entire narrative is highly misleading.

In the 19th century, foreign fanatic Indian Muslims led by Syed Ahmad Barelvi, also an Indian Islamist, came to 'Islamize' the Pashtun tribes against their wishes and their socio-cultural norms. The Yousafzai tribal leaders had a grand jirga that concluded that there was no way to get rid of the 'Indian Mujahideen' and their 'Islam' but to massacre them all. In pursuit of the jirga's decision, the Yousafzai tribesmen attacked the mujahideen killing several of them. The rest fled to the Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa town of Balakot where a waiting Sikh army killed each one of them, including their leader. The Yousafzai tribal leaders were not mullahs.

Those who promote such false notions about the Pashtun history also give the impression that the Pashtun struggle against foreign invasions has been devoid of any pragmatism, and that all Pashtun tribes have always been united against all invaders. The fact is that the tribes' responses to the foreign invaders have been pragmatic, including interactive cooperation with the invaders.

Rajdeep · Post by **Rajdeep** » 02 May 2012 20:05

Up to 30 percent of Afghanistan’s water is used by Pakistan and Iran. In his statement, Khan said his ministry planned to construct 22 dams in various provinces for organising water and agriculture development.Water and Energy Minister Mohammad Ismail Khan

http://www.pajhwok.com/en/2012/04/03/wa ... -situation

saip · Post by **saip** » 02 May 2012 20:10

When I read this, I thought there was a terrorist attack in India. What a strange name for a place in Pakiland!

Agra Taj

saip · Post by **saip** » 02 May 2012 20:14

Now Pakis are crying for not getting credit for OBL killing.

The Defence Minister further said that there was an agreement between Pakistan and US in which Islamabad would give evidence in English or Arabic to Washington, while they (US) would provide Pakistan with evidence in Urdu.

Mukhtar added that evidence recovered from the compound of Osama bin Laden was with the Army and it would take time to decode the CDs

Pakis dont understand English, obviously. Even after one year they have not decoded the evidence, what good is it?

The News

RCase · Post by **RCase** » 02 May 2012 20:37

Wasn't Osama an Arab and most of Al Qaida Arabic? Only the Pakis use Urdu. So if they found evidence in Urdu, doesn't it imply Paki collusion?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 May 2012 21:01

SBajwa wrote:
There are town named by British, now in TSP, such as Chak-22, Chak 39 etc. Such clumsy names come only by the invaders naming things their way.
My own great-great grandfather inherited the land at Narowal (Sialkote district) but his son who served in British Army got "20 Murabbe" i.e. 1 Murabba == 25 acres of land at Chak no. 271 (now called Samundari which is very close to Lyallpur)., I believe another famous person who was in charge of "postoffice" was father of Prithviraj Kapoor who got Murabbe at Chak no. 27n? or so (very close to my great-grand father land, this was confirmed by the Late Shammi Kapoor himself to me).

Chak means "land that needs to be fixed or made cultivatable" no. is just a number.

On my mother side too!! Same story!

Sandeep, I assume that your great grandfather refers to a period around 1860 to 1880? This was exactly the period when the British were building canals and inviting people to settle. Thsi was what made Punjab a "breadbasket"

That probably means that before the 1850s Punjab was cultivable only along the rivers and that too those rivers were prone to flooding and changing course making settled life inconvenient. If true, this probably defines Punjab before 1850. The area may not actually have supported a very large population with many cities and towns. Fewer people means fewer resources like taxes and soldiers for kings. That would have made Punjab a "weak state" that was prone to invasion and take over by anyone who came. In that sense what Ranjit Singh did was amazing.

Just a guess.

Sudip · Post by **Sudip** » 02 May 2012 21:08

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 May 2012 21:26

Sudip wrote:

Poor girl. She did her duty and well - but it can be upsetting to any human - even a trained one and I don't think the attention helps. She must have access to counselling so she doesn't carry around guilt.