Managing Chinese Threat

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Prem
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Prem »

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/04 ... -bloggers/
Are Chinese Bloggers America’s Accidental Spies
On Dec. 22, 2010, someone apparently pointed a cellphone out of the window of a car driving along a public road outside the perimeter of a military airfield in Chengdu, an industrial city in central China. The person holding the phone, whose name has never been revealed, snapped a photo of a black-painted jet fighter taxiing through fog blanketing the airfield.With that simple act, the photographer appeared to outperform the $80-billion-a-year U.S. spy community, which has the advantage of a plethora of drones, satellites, hackers and old-fashioned human spies. The snapshot was the first hard evidence of China’s very first “fifth-generation” stealth fighter, the J-20 — and it seemed to come as a surprise to some Pentagon analysts. “We have been pretty consistent in underestimating the delivery and initial operational capability of Chinese technology weapons systems,” Vice Adm. David Dorsett said.
In 2009, then-U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates had predicted that China would “have no fifth-generation aircraft by 2020.” Granted, Gates might have meant operational fifth-generation aircraft. All the same, the J-20′s appearance years ahead of schedule was a dramatic demonstration of China’s rapidly expanding aerospace prowess. And discovering it was also a signature achievement by a relatively unknown group of Chinese internet users whose military-technology fandom is having a profound effect on the most important strategic rivalry of the early 21st century.The Chinese fanboys, who post rumors, photos and snippets of technical data to a wide range of blogs and forums, are America’s de-facto spies in China, hoovering up information on Beijing’s latest planes, ships, missiles and ground vehicles and making it widely available to U.S. analysts, journalists, military planners and policymakers. These “accidental spies” are also the subject of my feature in the new Pacific Standard magazine. (Danger Room’s own Spencer Ackerman is also a contributor.)The Chengdu snapshot’s roundabout journey from the photographer’s cellphone to computer screens in the United States is typical of the postings from these Chinese forum members. The photog uploaded the J-20 shot to an obscure military forum apparently hosted inside the firewalled Chinese internet. That’s where one prominent, U.S.-based Chinese forum member found the photo. This person, whose name I agreed not to mention, uploaded it to Top81, a popular forum that includes an English-language extension that is easily accessible by foreigners.On Christmas Day 2010, Bill Sweetman, one of the world’s leading aviation journalists, noticed the photo at Top81 and, appreciating its significance, linked to it at Ares, the website of Defense Technology International magazine. Sweetman’s link spawned countless other links. There were skeptics, at first. But within a few days the J-20 was featured in newspaper headlines all over the Western world. Shortly thereafter Dorsett admitted the Pentagon was behind the curve.It’s not actually certain that the fanboys are better spies than the Pentagon’s, CIA’s and NSA’s professional spooks. It’s possible that the Chinese People’s Liberation Army controls the trickle of information to the forums, and by extension to Western audiences — making the fanboys more propagandists than spooks.Indeed, some forum members admit to belonging to the “50-cent club,” named after the bounty the PLA pays for each reposting of information the military quietly disseminates. Other forum-goers are given access to military facilities or alerted to forthcoming weapons tests at sites that are calculated to be just barely visible to the curious public.Equally, the PLA could be using the forums to compensate for its own poorly developed public-affairs apparatus. There’s an expectation of official secrecy in China that can be counterproductive to Beijing’s own goals. Inasmuch as the PLA has an interest in being respected for its military capabilities, it could rely on the forum members to paint a believable portrait of those capabilities.In that way, China’s accidental spies might also be its accidental diplomats.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by pankajs »

S. China Sea–the next big power playground
Despite strenuous efforts by China to keep other global powers out of the South China Sea, recent movements suggest that Beijing has failed.

The United States, whom China is most keen to block, has boosted its presence there in the last week. It is holding military exercises with the Philippines and having a naval exchange with Vietnam.

As if that is not irritating enough for Beijing, even Russia has muscled in. Its state gas giant Gazprom signed a deal this month with Vietnam to explore reserves in the resource-rich sea.

It mirrored a similar exploration pact that India signed with Hanoi last year, and comes on the back of Japan's long-held influence in the region through years of infrastructure investments in ASEAN.

The waters China regards as its backyard are fast becoming the world's “next big power playground”, say observers.
None of the global giants wants to give China free rein over such a precious piece of watery real estate. They have the support of smaller ASEAN countries that are contesting China's claims and seeking to bolster their claims by internationalizing the situation, say observers.
Last edited by pankajs on 25 Apr 2012 20:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by shyamd »

OVL pulling out of block in SCS (based on long standing request) due to drilling difficulties, but MEA has the file and they dont want to look like they are bowing to PRC Pressure. OVL officials say they will be back in disputed territory but in a different block due to partnership with Petro Vietnam
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Prem »

Muddy Waters
China then sent two surveillance vessels — part of a recent effort to protect its claims in the East and South China Seas — to block the Philippine ship. The message was stark: escalate and risk a violent run-in with the Chinese Navy, or stand down and negotiate with Beijing from a position of weakness. Manila wisely chose the latter, first substituting a civilian vessel for its combat vessel, and then containing the dispute through diplomatic channels. But China was also sending a flare to Washington, to the effect that American efforts to strengthen the military capacity of its regional allies would be checked. It’s easy to see the standoff as an act of quasi-aggression, but it’s not. Because China is looking for influence rather than spoiling for a fight, it will seek a minimal show of force, as it did in the Scarborough incident by sending surveillance vessels instead of warships. Drawing attention to its rapid military modernization or its intensifying nationalist sentiment, after all, could undermine China’s core interests. The United States has a treaty commitment to help defend the Philippines, but it has always been careful to maintain neutrality over sovereignty disputes. American diplomatic exertions have thus gone into supporting multilateral approaches that would make it more difficult for one power — China — to coerce its neighbors.
China, on the other hand, prefers to deal with the players in the region one by one, starting with a country like the Philippines, which it knows lacks the military capacity to defend its disparate islands. While the current standoff may be under control, more are likely to occur, especially as our allies turn to us for protection — something we may see at next week’s meeting between the United States and the Philippines in Washington.The maritime drama near Scarborough Shoal is just another salvo in a growing strategic rivalry that can be managed but not resolved. A resolute but prudent American position that seeks region-wide cooperation on common rules, but backed by American strength, remains the best means of keeping the waters tranquil
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/25/opini ... .html?_r=1
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

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Taiwan welcomes US reconsideration on jet sale
Taiwan said it welcomed the pledge by the United States to reconsider a proposed sale of new fighter jets to the island, a defence deal likely to upset Beijing.

Taiwan has been pushing for the purchase of 66 new US-made F-16 fighter jets, but the deal has been stalled by Washington.

The White House on Friday promised "serious consideration" to selling the jets in the wake of "the growing military threat to Taiwan".

"Taiwan welcome any projects that will help enhance and strengthen our self-defence capabilities," Taiwan's defence ministry spokesman David Lo said on Sunday, declining to elaborate on the sensitive issue.

Under US law, the administration is required to provide for the self-defence of Taiwan, a self-governing democracy that China claims as its territory.

Washington announced in September it would equip Taiwan's 146 F-16 A/B jets with new technologies, in a $5.85 billion deal which falls short of the island's fervent wish for 66 new F-16 C/Ds.

Although the package was less than what Taiwan had hoped for, it triggered an angry response from China, which warned that the deal would damage Sino-US military ties.

Tensions between Taipei and Beijing have eased markedly since 2008 when Ma Ying-jeou of the China-friendly Kuomintang party came to power on platform of beefing up trade and tourism links with China.

Yet China still considers it part of its territory and has threatened to invade Taiwan even though the island has ruled itself for more than 60 years at the end of a civil war in 1949.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by rajrang »

pankajs wrote:Taiwan welcomes US reconsideration on jet sale
Taiwan said it welcomed the pledge by the United States to reconsider a proposed sale of new fighter jets to the island, a defence deal likely to upset Beijing.

Taiwan has been pushing for the purchase of 66 new US-made F-16 fighter jets, but the deal has been stalled by Washington.

The White House on Friday promised "serious consideration" to selling the jets in the wake of "the growing military threat to Taiwan".

"Taiwan welcome any projects that will help enhance and strengthen our self-defence capabilities," Taiwan's defence ministry spokesman David Lo said on Sunday, declining to elaborate on the sensitive issue.

Under US law, the administration is required to provide for the self-defence of Taiwan, a self-governing democracy that China claims as its territory.

Washington announced in September it would equip Taiwan's 146 F-16 A/B jets with new technologies, in a $5.85 billion deal which falls short of the island's fervent wish for 66 new F-16 C/Ds.

Although the package was less than what Taiwan had hoped for, it triggered an angry response from China, which warned that the deal would damage Sino-US military ties.

Tensions between Taipei and Beijing have eased markedly since 2008 when Ma Ying-jeou of the China-friendly Kuomintang party came to power on platform of beefing up trade and tourism links with China.

Yet China still considers it part of its territory and has threatened to invade Taiwan even though the island has ruled itself for more than 60 years at the end of a civil war in 1949.
China transferred nuclear and missile technology to TSP to give TSP the capability to devastate India and kill hundreds of millions of Indians. This is the barbaric and ruthless nature of China. (Don't get distracted by the polite smiles of Chinese businessmen.)

Now India must return the favor ruthlessly. I hope India will sell a wide range arms and technology to Vietnam, Phillipines and Taiwan including gifting missile (including Agni-V) and nuclear technology. But I also realize that this is only my wishful thinking.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by shyamd »

India can play bigger military role in Asia wp.me/p1RUPH-90

BK ji explaining what I revealed earlier about the skeletons being put in place for an Asian NATO with India playing the key supporter and the deployment of tri forces in A&N.

Have a look at the map and the corridor that india is constructing in ASEAN and where the major hubs are and where the roads lead.

Watch out for exercise cobra gold 12. ASEAN joint exercise with the west and with India Bangladesh SK JAP etc.

Essential for our national security. I doubt PRC will be stupid enough to enter into a war as they will be the losers. This is why it is essential for India to buy weapons from Russia and this is what our strategists are Doing all these years. If Russia and china combine then US will lose Asia.

Believe it or not, I don't think we will see an India that is totally self sufficient in defence because of Russia.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Mahendra »

If China and Russia combine then Russia will lose Russia
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by svinayak »

Russia has managed to keep asia within its control and start the recede of the Marine powers of Anglo Saxon.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Roperia »

Crosspost
China-Pak military ties a “cause of worry”
India is raising an offensive Corps and taking other steps to gear up its preparedness along China border to meet the challenges, Defence Minister A.K. Antony said as he pitched for a substantial hike in defence budget to meet this changing threat perception.

Terming the growing military ties between Pakistan and China as a “cause of worry”, he said the armed forces have been issued a new directive to change their strategy to meet the challenges.

“Now we have given a new directive to our armed forces to meet the new challenges in context of the new threat perception faced by the country,” he said.

Mr. Antony said, “After analysis of the threat perception, we have found that the picture is problematic. We will need to have a second look at the defence budget... We have been given Rs 1.93 lakh crore this year but as per the estimated requirement of the armed forces, we would want Rs 2.39 lakh crore. We want Rs 45,716 crore more. I have asked the Government to provide us more money.”

The Minister was replying to a discussion on the performance of his Ministry in the Rajya Sabha.

On steps taken by the Government to strengthen defence capabilities, Mr. Antony said, “Under 12th Defence Plan, we have sent a proposal to Finance Ministry to raise an offensive Corps with two special divisions and it is in final stages. The force-level has been increased substantially.”

He said the Government had earlier approved raising of two mountain divisions along with a Special Forces battalion, an artillery brigade and an armoured regiment for deployment in the northeast sector.
Prem
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Prem »

http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2012 ... _news_blog
India Takes Middle Road in Manila-Beijing Dispute
India’s Ministry of External Affairs urged China and the Philippines to “exercise restraint” and resolve their brewing row over ownership of a set of islands in the South China Sea through diplomacy. :wink:
New Delhi’s position is notable because it shows the country will not always side with China’s opponents in territorial disputes, as many might assume.But by raising its voice, India also is signaling it’s ready to assume a larger diplomatic role in the region, part of a “Look East” policy that since its inception in the 1990s has come to little but in recent months appears to be taking shape. The longstanding ownership row over the small islands – known as Scarborough Shoal in the Philippines and Huangyan in China – has erupted again in the past month after Manila intercepted Chinese fishing vessels in the area.A large anti-Chinese demonstration is planned for today in Manila and Beijing has warned its citizens over travel to the Philippines.One might have imagined that India would either not respond to the kerfuffle or come down on the side of the Philippines, given its historic antagonism with China.India and China fought a 1962 border war that Beijing won. The frontier between the two countries remains unsettled. Tensions have risen further in recent months over India’s growing role in the South China Sea, which Beijing claims almost in its entirety.New Delhi’s goal in the region is two-fold. It wants to secure oil and gas assets in the South China Sea to meet growing demand at home for energy. And it wants to act as a counterweight to China in the area, whose islands are also claimed by the Philippines, Vietnam and other Asian countries.
So why isn’t India stepping in to back up Manila?
One reason could be that India realizes that a conflict with China probably isn’t winnable.Indians were ecstatic last month when the country test fired a nuclear-capable missile with a range covering much of China, a move which pundits here said would deter Beijing from belligerence.But China’s spending on conventional arms is far outstripping India’s military, which continues to rely on outdated equipment.In the future, India likely sees a path of wary accommodation of China as the most fruitful policy.What’s more, India is hoping to broaden the foundations of its economic growth by tapping into China’s expansion. The two countries’ bilateral trade jumped to over $60 billion in the year ended March 31, 2011, more than double the figure four years earlier.Still, India’s decision to speak up at all on the issue of a dispute between China and the Philippines perhaps shows the “Look East” policy is here to stay. And that likely means more diplomatic spats to come in the years ahead in the South China Sea and
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by paramu »

^^^
Author seem to have poor analytic skill and have misunderstood India. He fails to understand that India doesn't oppose thing for the sake of opposing. Doesn't follow the dictum enemy's enemy is friend, blindly. He considers that as a sign of weakness.
Prem
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

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China-Philippines Standoff: It Will Get Worse Before It Gets Better
http://opiniojuris.org/2012/05/10/china ... ts-better/
The standoff between China and the Philippines over the Huangyan Island/ Scarborough Shoal (see the island marked 黄岩 on the Chinese map to the right) has continued to fester over the past few weeks. CFR’s Asia Unbound blog has a nice summary here of the latest. The bottom line: The Philippines has been calling for restraint in recent days, but the Chinese seems to be escalating the rhetoric.
On Monday, He Jia, an anchor on China’s state-run CCTV, mistakenly declared that “China has unquestionable sovereignty over the Philippines” rather than just over the disputed island. On Tuesday, Chinese Vice Foreign Minister Fu Ying warned a Philippine diplomat that China was fully prepared to do anything to respond to escalation. Deep-water drilling has begun near islands in the South China Sea and Chinese travel agencies have reportedly suspended tours to the Philippines.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by svinayak »

paramu wrote:^^^
Author seem to have poor analytic skill and have misunderstood India. He fails to understand that India doesn't oppose thing for the sake of opposing. Doesn't follow the dictum enemy's enemy is friend, blindly. He considers that as a sign of weakness.
The author uses the word ECSTATIC about Indians when Indians have been bleeding due to PRC policy with Pakistan for many decades now.

.Indians were ecstatic last month when the country test fired a nuclear-capable missile with a range covering much of China, a move which pundits here said would deter Beijing from belligerence.But China’s spending on conventional arms is far outstripping India’s military, which continues to rely on outdated equipment.

-----------

Very poor judgement of people and nation in this article. Hence low grade
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by shyamd »

If a sudden conflict/standoff between the PRC and one of the east asian states which lead to limited conflict of some sort. What should be India's position?
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by SSridhar »

India likely to withdraw from drilling the Vietnamese oil block
Officials have conveyed to Vietnam plans to terminate operations on commercial considerations, said the sources who knew about the talks.
Vietnamese diplomats expressed disappointment considering that Hanoi had stood up to Beijing for the past six years whenever it disputed the contract given to India for oil exploration in the Phu Khanh Basin. They wondered whether this was due to pressure from China which was “always against any foreign company” conducting oil operations in the South China Sea.
A Holland-based company surveying this area on behalf of OVL was even summoned by the Chinese Embassy in The Hague and told to stop operations.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Yogi_G »

SSridhar wrote:India likely to withdraw from drilling the Vietnamese oil block
Officials have conveyed to Vietnam plans to terminate operations on commercial considerations, said the sources who knew about the talks.
Vietnamese diplomats expressed disappointment considering that Hanoi had stood up to Beijing for the past six years whenever it disputed the contract given to India for oil exploration in the Phu Khanh Basin. They wondered whether this was due to pressure from China which was “always against any foreign company” conducting oil operations in the South China Sea.
A Holland-based company surveying this area on behalf of OVL was even summoned by the Chinese Embassy in The Hague and told to stop operations.
Somehow it seems to me that GoI felt that Aman ki tamasha with TSP needed Chinese blessings and this is a "Confidence Building Measure".
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by shyamd »

OVL asked to relinquish that block even before any incident with china.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RajeshA »

shyamd wrote:If a sudden conflict/standoff between the PRC and one of the east asian states which lead to limited conflict of some sort. What should be India's position?
If there is conflict between PRC and some East Asian state, sit it out. After or even during the conflict, most countries are going to turn anti-Chinese.

What we can do is to fund this anti-Chinese sentiment in East and Southeast Asia and then cash in into it.

We can in the aftermath try to anchor those countries much more strongly with India. We can divert their trade from China towards us. We can get them to invest in our military-industrial complex.

The real fun starts in the aftermath.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Prem »

Chinese media warns of war with Philippines
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... pines.html
Reports in Japan said five Chinese warships – including two guided missile destroyers, two frigates and a amphibious landing ship – had passed through waters close to Okinawa moving to Philippine reefs. As the dispute escalated, Leon Panetta, the US defence secretary, met senators in a push to ratify a treaty that would bolster legal backing for US naval patrols in dispute regions such as the South China Sea. Seizing on warnings of the dangers of escalating "gunboat diplomacy" Mr Panetta called on the senate to ratify the Laws of the Sea, a UN treaty that has been hindered by procedural disputes. "By moving off the sidelines and leading the discussion, we would be able to influence those treaty bodies that develop and interpret the Law of the Sea," he said. "In that way, we would ensure that our rights are not whittled away by the excessive claims and erroneous interpretations of others." American officials also announced the deployment of Littoral Combat Ships, a new generation of vessels that would allow the US much more extensive coverage of Asian sea lanes including the Strait of Malacca, as well as areas disputed by China. The first of the shallow-draft ships, Freedom would be deployed to operate from Singapore for 10 months.
( Time to Donate few Brahmos to Phillipine People)
Prem
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Prem »

http://www.globaltimes.cn/NEWS/tabid/99 ... iness.aspx
Govt denies army at 'combat readiness'
China on Friday refuted allegations that troops in South China have been preparing for war.
"The reports alleging that the PLA Guangzhou Military Area Command and the Navy's South China Sea Fleet have entered combat readiness are not true," the Ministry of National Defense said in a statement issued on its website on Friday. Meanwhile, anti-China demonstrations advocated by some Filipino activists to stage on Friday did not turn out to be as large as claimed.Around 200 Filipino activists reportedly held an anti-China protest outside the Chinese consulate in Manila.China accused the Philippines of escalating tensions amid the row over Huangyan Island. "Inciting anti-China protests was a mistake by the Philippines that has escalated the current situation and made it more complicated," Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Hong Lei told reporters in Beijing.Reaffirming that Huangyan Island is an inherent part of Chinese territory, Hong said China is concerned about the security of its citizens in the Philippines and urged Manila to refrain from actions that will further escalate tensions."China has requested that the Philippines take effective measures to protect the security, lawful rights and interests of Chinese citizens and agencies in the country," he said.About 200 protesters, well below initial estimates of 1,000 people by organizers, rallied in front of the Chinese consulate in Manila on Friday.The demonstrators, carrying placards and banners and waving Philippine flags, protested against what they called "Chinese intrusions into Philippine territory," according to Reuters.The Chinese embassy in Manila on Thursday already issued a safety warning, advising Chinese nationals to avoid going out.Philippine activities said earlier that Filipinos around the world will also organize simultaneous anti-China rallies on May 11 in front of Chinese embassies and consulates in other countries, but there have been no reports on such protests yet.
Prem
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Prem »

http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2012 ... 274672.htm
Putin to pay state visit to China
BEIJING - Vice-President Xi Jinping met with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov in Beijing on Friday, vowing to make Russian President Vladimir Putin's upcoming China visit a complete success.President Putin is to pay a state visit to China in early June and attend the Beijing summit of Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) as guest of President Hu Jintao, Xi said."China attaches great importance to the visit, and is in close coordination with Russia on the preparations," Xi said.He expressed his hope that both sides will keep close coordination in the final preparation, and ensure the meeting between the two heads of state becomes a fruitful one that boosts future growth of bilateral ties."Leaders of the two countries fully understand the strategic, long-term and comprehensive nature of China-Russia relations, and always take the relationship as one of each other's diplomatic priorities, Xi said.
As permanent members of the UN Security Council and major emerging economies, the two countries share the same or similar views on major global and regional issues over the years, and have kept close cooperation and contributed to regional and world peace, said the vice president.Stressing the great significance of the SCO summit in June, Xi called on both countries and other member states to consolidate and strengthen the SCO, and further cooperation within the mechanism.
Founded in Shanghai in 2001, SCO comprises six member countries: China, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan.In response, Lavrov said he is in China to pave the way for Putin's visit, adding that all preparation work is well underway.He said Russia is satisfied with the sound growth of relations with China, citing high-level political trust, rapid growth of trade, vigorous cultural exchanges and close coordination on major global and regional issues and within multilateral frameworks such as the United Nations and SCO.Russia hopes to ramp up cooperation with China in various areas, and take the bilateral comprehensive partnership of strategic coordination to a new stage, he added.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by svinayak »

RajeshA wrote:
shyamd wrote:If a sudden conflict/standoff between the PRC and one of the east asian states which lead to limited conflict of some sort. What should be India's position?
If there is conflict between PRC and some East Asian state, sit it out. After or even during the conflict, most countries are going to turn anti-Chinese.
The most big impact is that the pressure on the Indo Tibet border will reduce and the PLA attention will be on southern China border. Multiple border problems of China state will keep the PLA occupied. It is not simple. PLA has trmendous capacity and PLA with CPC can handle any complexity for a long time.
Prem
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Prem »

Conflict In The South China Sea And India’s Interests – Analysis
http://www.eurasiareview.com/12052012-c ... -analysis/
( from Russian Perspective)
On Friday, India’s Foreign Ministry voiced its country’s position on the territorial conflict between China and the Philippines in the South China Sea, and called upon both parties to exercise restraint and to resolve disputed issues by diplomatic means.The dispute between China and the Philippines about the territories in the South China Sea cannot be considered a strictly bilateral conflict. In fact, it is a reflection of a new and growing trend connected with shifting the focus of attention of the world geopolitics from the Middle East region to the Asia-Pacific region. The essence of the conflict lies not only in China’s disputes with its neighbors (which happened with practically all of them) about different pieces of land and the adjacent water area. The underlying reason is that the major focus of world politics – the confrontation between China and the USA, which has long been discussed by specialists in international affairs – is entering an obvious, open phase, thinks Boris Volkhonsky, an expert of the Russian Institute of Strategic Studies.

India’s position is very important in this context. The thing is that the above-mentioned global trend in Asia is manifesting itself in a confrontation between the two leading powers of this part of the world – China and India. At the same time both parties, loaded with a lot of unsettled contentious issues, are trying to avoid direct confrontation, demonstrating commitment to cooperation and friendly relations. However, the confrontation still exists – it has shifted to some “remote grounds”, and manifests itself with all the force there.”During the last several years China has been actively occupying the Indian Ocean, surrounding India from the sea with a chain of its ports and monitoring stations in the neighbouring countries (the so-called “string of pearls” strategy). India is giving an “asymmetric response” to these actions of China and actively develops relations with the countries of the South China Sea basin, primaring place with Vietnam and the Philippines, i.e. the countries that have the most burning problems in their relations with China.Boris Volkhonsky reminds that in the recent past India’s activity in the South China Sea led to clashes with China.
It should be taken into account that the difference in economic and military potentials between China and India is so great, that today it is impossible to speak about parity. That is why India will continue to actively indicate its presence in this and other regions vital to its interests, but it will not start a direct confrontation with China.”

This is a fundamental difference between the positions of India and the USA. Washington’s strategists would very much like to see India as one of its closest allies regarding the policy of China’s deterrence. However, pragmatic reasons are taking the upper hand in the Indian foreign policy so far. And Washington is unlikely to rely on India’s abandoning its line for the sake of supporting the US policy.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Pratyush »

Acharya wrote:
The most big impact is that the pressure on the Indo Tibet border will reduce and the PLA attention will be on southern China border. Multiple border problems of China state will keep the PLA occupied. It is not simple. PLA has trmendous capacity and PLA with CPC can handle any complexity for a long time.
Guys,

What if the PRC, comes after India in a teach a lesson fashion. ie, 7 to 10 days of open warefare and then a unilateral withdrawal. What is it that the Indian political leadership likely to do. Also, what will be the reaction of far eastern nations.

Will this war also serve to consolidate an anti PRC grouping. As is likely to happen in case of a PRC attack n Philipense or Vietnam.

Moreover, an attack on India may serve to damage the confidence of Indian leadership and prevent them from becoming a part of anti PRC combine.

Keeping in view the above, I feel it is logical for the PRc to attack India and ignore the East Asian nations for the time being.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Sidhant »

Pratyush wrote: Guys,

What if the PRC, comes after India in a teach a lesson fashion. ie, 7 to 10 days of open warefare and then a unilateral withdrawal. What is it that the Indian political leadership likely to do. Also, what will be the reaction of far eastern nations.

Will this war also serve to consolidate an anti PRC grouping. As is likely to happen in case of a PRC attack n Philipense or Vietnam.

Moreover, an attack on India may serve to damage the confidence of Indian leadership and prevent them from becoming a part of anti PRC combine.

Keeping in view the above, I feel it is logical for the PRc to attack India and ignore the East Asian nations for the time being.
Saar ji,

Too much pessimism about India or Indian capabilities :roll: ? What happens if they dont achieve their objectives in 7-10 days, will they still withdraw? Will staying longer do any good to their already strained economy and internal unrest? Staying longer opens the field for foreign intervention especially if Indian back is pushed to the wall. If they withdraw without achieving anything tangible what is stopping us to portray it as their defeat, am sure the whole world will align with this narrative just to humiliate China. Remember China being bigger, more meaner opponent, all we have to do is hold them right on their tracks and wolla we win!! What happens then, what will Chinese political leadership do, what will be the reaction of East Asian nations, wont it damage the confidence and even the hold of CPC.

Plus shorter the time of engagement, better will be Indian chances coz if it comes down to a war of attrition, that's when our lesser numbers in equipment will start showing up. Unless they catch our entire intel setup napping, I don't think they can mount a large scale surprise aggression against India and Indian defenses are strong enough to hold any small scale surprise aggression from China. For a large scale aggression as well, India will make sure that its not a walk in a park or them.

Also I fail to see your reasoning for the statement that an attack on India will make India back down from anti China alliance, I mean if 1962 is an example then Indian stance will be to arm itself to the teeth against China and be more hostile to it. This attack will make India one of the leading proponent of such an alliance.

Basically if everything goes right for China and everything goes wrong for India, what you say is a plausible choice for China. But in light of all the above mentioned questions it is not a logical Choice for China. The stakes are just too high and anything short of a comprehensive victory will be seen as a loss of face for China and India's profile and stature goes much higher.

From your post it looks like you have already made up your mind that India will loose and if that is the case then there is no point discussing any further coz no matter what arguments are put forward India will come out as a loser and thus there will be no point discussing that.

Edited Once to add some more thoughts
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by brihaspati »

China cannot come simply to teach a lesson. Unless it permanently conquers some territory - mere winning some battles or actions is tantamount to defeat for them Any such "win" will not satisfy the nationalists within PRC, party and PLA - or will be used by the opposition within the party and PLA to overthrow the ruling junta.

Therefore if PRC at all moves militarily, it will have to make tangible territorial settlements. Such a move cannot be entirely ruled out - as its own internal divisions might be thought as patchable by the regime through a nationalist power projection.

But the move will not start directly by China as China will play at not appearing to be the aggressor. It will try to draw India in through proxy, especially Pakistan. Placing PLA troops in POK is a first step towards this, and Pakistani pressure for India to withdraw as much as possible is to prevent potential observation by India of Chinese moves, infrastructural development especially underground structures. After the withdrawal of US from AFG, even after much publicized talks of continued US presence in AFG - and the less publicized keen interest that US shows in "talking" to the Talebs, the next moves that the handlers of the Talebs will make is to push for the East. This is the excuse that formally the PLA will give - forestalling Taleb move across POK towards Sinkiang.

Using this the Paki irregularly-regulars can try to make a move on the valley. Any Indian counterattack means hitting the chinese troops who were on "non-military" duty and hence proof of Indian aggression.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by vasu raya »

very vivid description of the unfolding plot Brihaspati Saab, kudos! the Chinese causualties will be hyped up if things pan out according to the above script
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Prem »

China and Japan Fall Out Over Uighurs

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... bout_china

Quote:
TOKYO—Signs of tension are returning to relations between Japan and China, casting shadows over accelerating efforts between the two East Asian powers to strengthen their economic ties.In the latest sign of renewed strain, China has harshly condemned Japan for allowing a group of exiled Uighur activists to hold a major conference in Tokyo this week. China considers the group, the World Uyghur Congress, an "anti-China separatist organization." Calling it a private group, Tokyo says it won't interfere with its activities.China's Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region has become one of country's most unstable in recent years.
In a signal of its dissatisfaction with Tokyo's Uighur position, China failed to arrange a bilateral meeting between President Hu Jintao and Japanese Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda on Sunday in Beijing, where the two nations and South Korea agreed to start formal negotiations for a trilateral free-trade agreement. To the annoyance of Japanese officials, Mr. Hu did meet bilaterally with South Korean President Lee Myung-bak.
Then Tuesday came the abrupt cancellation of a scheduled meeting between Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi and Hiromasa Yonekura, who is head of Japan's powerful Keidanren business lobby and was visiting. Chinese officials didn't have an immediate comment.Relations between China and Japan were placid for a while after Japan was hit by natural and nuclear disasters in March 2011. But tension has returned in recent months, stoked in part by provocative remarks from some of Japan's more nationalist and vocal politicians. Among them were Tokyo Gov. Shintaro Ishihara's proposal that his municipal government buy some East China Sea islands that are the subject of a territorial dispute between China and Japan, and Nagoya Mayor Takashi Kawamura's denial of Japanese atrocities in China in the 1930s.Several Japanese lawmakers from conservative parties have attended the Uighur conference.Beijing, meanwhile, has stepped up naval activities in sensitive waters between the two nations.This week's conference in Tokyo is attended by a number of Uighur activists in exile, including the leader of the World Uyghur Congress, Rebiya Kadeer.
Responding to Chinese criticism over her being issued a visa, Japanese foreign ministry spokesman Masaru Sato said Tokyo had simply followed its set rules and procedures.
Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Hong Lei expressed "strong dissatisfaction" with Japan's stance.
"Anti-China separatists from the World Uyghur Congress have colluded with Japan's right-wing forces and exposed their political determination to separate their homeland and undermine China-Japan relations," he said at a news conference Monday
RajeshA
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RajeshA »

Just imagine humanitarian Japan financing the Uighurs to fight for their independence from China. Aw now that sounds great! :D
shyamd
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by shyamd »

Japan can afford to take that position due to their military presence and relations with the US. And anyway, as I say - good for India as India will be a big beneficiary of poor relations between PRC & Japs.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Prem »

http://www.project-syndicate.org/commen ... won-t-rule
Why China Won’t Rule
( No Soft Power, No Shower and little Hard Power)
The sensible question, then, is not whether China will replace the US, but whether it will start to acquire some of the attributes of a world power, particularly a sense of responsibility for global order.CommentsView/Create comment on this paragraphEven posed in this more modest way, the question does not admit of a clear answer. The first problem is China’s economy, so dynamic on the surface, but so rickety underneath.
The analyst Chi Lo lucidly presents a picture of macro success alongside micro failure. The huge stimulus of RMB4 trillion ($586 billion) in November 2008, mostly poured into loss-making state-owned enterprises via directed bank lending, sustained China’s growth in the face of global recession. But the price was an increasingly serious misallocation of capital, resulting in growing portfolios of bad loans, while excessive Chinese household savings have inflated real-estate bubbles. Moreover, Chi argues that the crisis of 2008 shattered China’s export-led growth model, owing to prolonged impairment of demand in the advanced countries.Moreover, to be a world economic power, China requires a currency in which foreigners want to invest. That means introducing full convertibility and creating a deep and liquid financial system, a stock market for raising capital, and a market rate of interest for loans.The second problem is one of political values. China’s further “ascent” will depend on dismantling such classic communist policy icons as public-asset ownership, population control, and financial repression.There is also very little belief in the sanctity of human life: Buddhism holds that there is no difference between humans and animals and plants. A pledge to protect human rights was written into the Chinese constitution in 2004; but, as the recent case of the blind dissident Chen Guangcheng illustrates, this is mostly a dead letter. Similarly, private property ranks below collective property..These historical legacies limit the extent to which China will be able to share in global leadership, which requires some degree of compatibility between Chinese and Western values. The West claims that its values are universal, and the US and Europe will not cease pressing those values on China. It is hard to see this process going into reverse, with China starting to export its own values.CommentsView/Create comment on this paragraphChina has a choice: it can either accept Western values, or it can try to carve out an East Asian sphere to insulate itself from them. The latter course would provoke conflict not only with the US, but also with other Asian powers, particularly Japan and India. China’s best possible future thus probably lies in accepting Western norms while trying to flavor them with “Chinese characteristicsBut neither choice is a scenario for China “replacing” the US. Nor, I think, is this what China wants. Its goal is respect, not dominance
/
(Respect is to be earned and commanded not demanded like Boss Noodlini )
Prem
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Prem »

http://reason.com/archives/2012/05/21/c ... status-quo
China and the Lure of the Status Quo
China in 2012 is a lot like Japan in the 1980s.
BEIJING—A rising Asian power with an unstoppable export machine, rapidly growing wealth and a sense that our time is past and its time has come: China in 2012? Yes—but also Japan in the 1980s.Back then, many Americans thought Japan was destined to dominate the world economically. Japanese leaders had the same idea, and some were not reluctant to let Americans know. But the past is not always prologue. When things go well, they can distract from things that can go wrong.Japan got blindsided. The magic formula stopped working, and the country couldn't find a new one. Its economic fortunes have come to be summarized in bleak phrases: the lost decade, the great stagnation.It's not the world's biggest economy, as people expected. In fact, it's gone from No. 2 to No. 3, falling behind China.Over the past 30 years, China has been an economic success story without parallel in modern history. By abandoning the disastrous policies of Mao Zedong's era and embracing the market, it attained growth averaging a stunning 10 percent a year, lifting hundreds of millions of Chinese out of poverty. It became the world's biggest exporter.
ut all is not well. Thanks to the malfunctioning economies of the United States and Europe, demand for China's exports is shriveling. Under pressure from Washington, it has had to let its currency decline, which puts a drag on its sales abroad.Inflation is up and could soon approach double digits. Growth is down—and anything the government does to combat rising prices may depress it further.Meanwhile, the real estate market, says Tsinghua University business professor Patrick Chovanec, "is in the process of crashing." That process, as you may recall from the U.S. experience, can wreak havoc on banks. In the first quarter, GDP rose at the slowest rate since 2009.Not all of the country's troubles are economic. The national leadership transition scheduled for this fall has been thrown into turmoil by a scandal involving a powerful member of the Politburo, former Chongqing Communist Party chief Bo Xilai.Domestic discontent is increasingly public: In 2011, there were an estimated 100,000 organized protests in various places, or more than 250 a day. The government felt the need to crack down on dissent to make sure the Arab Spring did not spread east. But the rise of mobile communications and social networks has left the censors constantly playing catch-up.Having abandoned the communist ideology of the past, China's rulers have managed to retain power partly by delivering ever-increasing prosperity. If the economy suffers a "hard landing," the people may be less willing to indulge autocracy.A serious slowdown of that kind is no longer out of the question. China can't keep selling abroad if the rest of the world can't afford to buy its goods.It's common wisdom in Beijing that the economy needs to shift away from its traditional engines, exports and investment, and toward greater consumer spending at home. But saying it and doing it are not the same things.
Prem
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Prem »

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/24/world ... .html?_r=1
China: General’s Trip to Japan Is Canceled

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2012 ... 361113.htm
Military official hard to make Japan trip
China's Ministry of National Defense on Tuesday confirmed that Guo Boxiong, vice-chairman of the Central Military Commission can hardly make the trip to Japan because of a "work commitment".The Information Office of the National Defense Ministry replied to China Daily in written form, saying that China attaches great importance to its friendship and cooperation with Japan, and the Chinese government had previously discussed Guo's visit with Japan.
The senior military official's trip was originally planned to start on Thursday and would have included a meeting with Japan's Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda as well as a visit to the base of Japan's Self-defense Forces.Citing diplomatic sources, Japan's Kyodo News agency on Saturday said Guo's visit was postponed in protest due to the Diaoyu Islands issue and a scheduled meeting of the World Uyghur Youth Congress, which China sees as a separatist group, in Japan.Previously, Tokyo Governor Shintaro Ishihara reignited tensions between Beijing and Tokyo by raising the idea of buying the Diaoyu Islands from so-called private owners during a speech to the Heritage Foundation in Washington.Satsuki Eda, a sitting member of the Japanese legislature and the Democratic Party of Japan's chief advisor, emphasized in an exclusive interview with China Daily that the Tokyo governor's plan "does not represent the position of the Japanese government"."I think he just wanted his announcement to create a sensation, but it does no good to resolve problems, " Eda said. Eda said that some Japanese always hate to see a friendship developing between the two neighboring countries."But only a few Japanese think like this. The majority of the public support an improved relationship with China," he said. He told China Daily that the overall perspective of bilateral relations will not be affected.

The chief advisor of Japan's ruling party also reviewed the progress that has been made since 1972 and said he was confident in the future development of the Sino-Japanese ties.Tokyo has been embroiled in disputes with China since earlier this year due to Japan's malicious destruction of bilateral relations, said Yang Bojiang, a professor of Japanese studies at the University of International Relations in Beijing."This year was widely viewed as a good chance to deepen political trust between Beijing and Tokyo, but the friendly atmosphere has been destroyed," Yang said. He thought the cancellation of Guo's visit was Beijing's response to a series of inappropriate actions by Japan."But both sides should prevent disputes from escalating into conflicts. Especially the ruling DPJ government should act quickly to block Ishihara's proposal in Tokyo's municipal assembly," Yang said, urging both China and Japan to keep their dispute "under control".
Major parties in Tokyo's assembly are divided over Ishihara's plan.

The DPJ, which holds the majority of seats, convened all its members on Tuesday to reach an agreement about the purchase plan, but a deep rift has been seen in the party ever since the conservative governor raised the idea, Japan's J-cast news network reported.According to a survey conducted by Yomiuri Shimbun, all Tokyo parliament members are "racking their brains" right now to choose sides, and more than 90 percent of the 124 assemblymen are abstaining against Ishihara's proposal. Only seven gave their approval, four of which are with DPJ."My personal opinion is another matter. And I will not jump to a conclusion until the plan is proposed to the parliament," said Akira Miyazaki, the Liberal Democratic Party's secretary-general in the Tokyo.
Philip
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Philip »

Sorry,Boris boy et al,the name of the expanse of water is the "Indo-China Sea",NOT the SC Sea.Guys,we' must get used to calling the I-C Sea by its true name.The land mass abutting the sea is called "Indo-China" and Indian culture and religion is scattered all over the ASEAN nations and this part of Asia,that has given the region its name.

The latest AWST has a report on China where the dragon is making massive efforts to be truly independent in aero-engine tech and not dependent on Russia.Contrast this with the pathetic state of Indian aero-engine development and its fixation on Kaveri as if it were a magic bullet for all our future aircraft programmes! Therefore China is begging ,borrowing and stealing engine tech from all over the world."Employ a Chinaman at your own risk".
P.
Cosmo_R
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Cosmo_R »

Philip wrote:Sorry,Boris boy et al,the name of the expanse of water is the "Indo-China Sea",NOT the SC Sea.Guys,we' must get used to calling the I-C Sea by its true name.The land mass abutting the sea is called "Indo-China" and Indian culture and religion is scattered all over the ASEAN nations and this part of Asia,that has given the region its name.

The latest AWST has a report on China where the dragon is making massive efforts to be truly independent in aero-engine tech and not dependent on Russia.Contrast this with the pathetic state of Indian aero-engine development and its fixation on Kaveri as if it were a magic bullet for all our future aircraft programmes! Therefore China is begging ,borrowing and stealing engine tech from all over the world."Employ a Chinaman at your own risk".
P.
Well, here's a way. Deep ToT the cancelled F-136 program. Put in the development money and build it in India.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the ... sco-03070/
Prem
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Prem »

http://www.project-syndicate.org/commen ... nding-core
China’s Expanding Core
Yuriko Koike
Yuriko Koike, Japan's former Minister of Defense and National Security Adviser, is a former chairwoman of Japan's Liberal Democrat Party, and currently an opposition leader in the Diet.
TOKYO – China is now engaged in bitter disputes with the Philippines over Scarborough Shoal and Japan over the Senkaku Islands, both located far beyond China’s 200-mile-wide territorial waters in the South China Sea. Indeed, so expansive are China’s claims nowadays that many Asians are wondering what will satisfy China’s desire to secure its “core interests.” Are there no limits, or does today’s China conceive of itself as a restored Middle Kingdom, to whom the entire world must kowtow?So far, China has formally referred to Taiwan, Tibet, and Xinjiang province as “core interests,” a phrase that connotes an assertion of national sovereignty and territorial integrity that will brook no compromise. Now China is attempting to apply the same term to the Senkaku Islands in its dispute with Japan, and is perilously close to making the same claim for the entire South China Sea; indeed, some Chinese military officers already have.CommentsView/Create comment on this paragraphThe Senkaku Islands, located to the west of Okinawa in the East China Sea and currently uninhabited, were incorporated into Japan by the Meiji government in 1895. At one time, there were regular residents working at a bonito-drying facility. In 1969, the United Nations Economic Commission for Asia and the Far East (ECAFE) completed a seabed survey of the East China Sea, and reported the possible presence of vast underground mineral resources, including abundant oil and natural gas reserves near the Senkakus. Two years passed before Taiwan and China claimed sovereignty over the islands, in 1971, but the Japanese government’s stance has always been that Japan’s sovereignty is not in questionIf gruff diplomacy was the only manifestation of China’s expansive territorial claims, Asian leaders could sleep more peacefully. But the fact is that China’s navy is becoming increasingly active in the South China Sea, at the Senkaku Islands and Scarborough Shoal in particular, but also around the Spratly Islands claimed by Vietnam. Given China’s mushrooming military budget and secretiveness, that assertiveness has set off alarm bells among the other countries bordering the South China Sea.
CommentsView/Create comment on this paragraphMoreover, China’s bullying of the Philippines included not only the dispatch of warships to Scarborough Shoals, but also the sudden imposition of import restrictions on Filipino produce. And China’s reactions toward Japan are far more paranoid since a non-LDP government took power.So far, China has not unleashed the sort of mass demonstrations against Japan and others that it has used in the past to convey its displeasure. But that probably reflects the jittery state of China’s leaders in the wake of the Bo purge: they cannot guarantee that an anti-Japan demonstration would not turn into an anti-government protest.
CommentsView/Create comment on this paragraphChina’s real core interests are not in territorial expansion and hegemony over its neighbors, but in upholding the human rights and improving the welfare of its own citizens, which is the world’s core interest in China. But until China accepts that its territorial claims in the South China Sea must be discussed multilaterally, so that smaller countries like the Philippines and Vietnam do not feel threatened, China’s ever expanding “core interests” will be the root of instability in East Asia.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Pratyush »

Philipe ji,

Suggest just one change in otherwise great post above. Lets call it western pacific, instead of Indo china sea. That gives ownership of the sea to humanity. Rater then introduce India into any dispute.
RajeshA
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RajeshA »

Pratyush wrote:Philipe ji,

Suggest just one change in otherwise great post above. Lets call it western pacific, instead of Indo china sea. That gives ownership of the sea to humanity. Rater then introduce India into any dispute.
Pratyush ji,

I wrote a post dated Nov 10, 2011 coincidentally addressed to you, where I proposed, we call it the "Indo-China Sea".
RajeshA wrote:Pratyush ji,

Indo-China Sea :wink: (South China Sea) should be considered a trip wire for our dealing with the Chinese in the Indian Ocean. They do anything funny to us there, we should start shooting down their ships in the Indian Ocean!
"Indo-China" is a term coined by the French to refer to a region lying between the South of China and East of India, and it could be considered as Southeast Asia of today. So if the sea is called "Indo-China Sea" or "Indochina Sea" by the world, it would not necessarily have any Indian contribution in name giving. It is a European historical term.

The Southeast Asian nations may also agree to it, so as to underline that the region is not China's sole marked territory but India too has some influence. Secondly "Indochina" itself refers more specifically to countries like Vietnam, Cambodia, etc. and can include Philippines as well. Thus the sea belongs to these nations rather than to China.

So I would in fact prefer the name "Indochina Sea" rather than "Indo-China Sea". It alludes to local claims on the sea while at the same time gives India higher precedence over China as the word India both precedes that of China as well as has the first letter capitalized.

The word speaks for itself. India does not need to make any untoward claims on that.

May be the French can start calling the sea by the name "Indochina Sea" first and then the EU, and then USA, and then ASEAN, then Japan and Korea, then India and then the rest.

Giving the Sea an alternate name is strategically important.
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