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PostPosted: 13 May 2012 18:40 
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rohitvats wrote:
It is like me visiting a doctor with a problem --> doctor diagnoses as problem x, start medication--> no relief--> doctor says, sorry, wrong diagnosis, it is problem Y. Should I just sit back and be thankful that at least doctor tried or call him out for his incompetence?


Rohit that is your choice isn't it? People can have different opinions no? It's not as though only one opinion is the right opinion.

rohitvats wrote:
And here we are dragging the common people into the argument here. After all, 99% of people w/o technical education did not make promises to do X or Y? It is people with the requisite qualification who endeavored to do things which falls under their domain of expertise. With the same 99% base, ISRO/BARC reached where they are now - after all, there's is as much a multidisciplinary field as aviation.

We are not dragging common people anywhere rohit - so please stop that particular emotional rhetoric. I used the comparison of 1% experts versus 99% common people, so even if common people are being dragged anywhere they are being dragged by me. Not we. The 99% did not make promises. I am accusing them of being ignorant. Because they are the 99% common as opposed to 1% experts. My objection is when they pretend to be experts and don't even realise it.

rohitvats wrote:
Well, this line of argument has been bandied about a lot of times and I don't see how the *present* question of LCA Project Management by DRDO is served by your argument. Yes, there was bad blood between DRDO and Services - but is that responsible for the development path adopted by the DRDO with respect to LCA? Why are we bringing in here tangential arguments?


This line is bandied about because it is true, to an extent. But there is more to it than that. However you insist that the "present question" is something or other. Not sure where you pulled that present question from but you insist that it is the present question and if you insist that I must answer it I think it's like saying "If xyz had been done in 19xx maybe abc would have happened to LCA". To me that is the same as lamenting, "If my aunt had a penis she would have been my uncle". That is my opinion. I have however pointed out certain structural problems in Indian society at large that almost certainly played a role in the LCA saga. Whether that is wholly responsible for the path that you are talking about or not is something that I have net even attempted to answer.

Your idea of tangential argument is different from mine. You are clearly free to call anything tangential if it does not conform to your viewpoint. You are making a judgement about my statement and then you want me to answer why I acted the way your judgement says I acted? Perhaps that is exactly the same way you are judging the DRDO? You make a judgement and then ask everyone why they acted the way your judgement says they acted? Only you can answer that. Not others. Like I said, we are all experts here. The judge and the jury.


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PostPosted: 13 May 2012 19:00 
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Pardon my impatience, I did not read the entire post, but ..........

Shiv wrote:
kalkibhagwan wrote:
I have a question. How would the influx of NRI's (especially those in aviation sectors in countries like US,UK) in HAL affect our experience and knowledge?? Should PSUs focus more on attracting american NRI's from companies like LM and Boeing Would like the perspective of Garus here...



Kalkibhagwan - it's not about NRIs or RIs. It is, frankly about the shudra tradition of engineering as opposed to the vysya tradition of funding and employing and trading or looking buy or import other easier sources of the same thing.

.........................................

A person who compares aircraft design and manufacture with cars or rockets does not know what he is talking about.


Attracting NRI, or anyone else, is the next level of ToT - it gets you some thing, BUT not the complete thing.

Experience + knowledge + researcher data will provide a better scenario. More research data the better.


Last edited by NRao on 13 May 2012 19:06, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 13 May 2012 19:05 
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On the general topic of an indigenous defence industry, let me first make a disclaimer by saying that I want our armed forces to have the best arms we can find. But I also want to point out that historically the luxury of having the best possible arms did not exist for a whole lot of nations. Wars and nations have been lost for that reason alone - but that situation has often led to intense innovation. And while that innovation was going on, the armed forces of that nation have had to fight wars with "less than the best" indigenous arms, sometimes successfully, and sometimes disastrously.

Take Japan and Germany in WW2. They had no other go. They had to innovate before the war and continue innovating during the war. In some cases their innovations were inferior to what they faced, but their armed forces had no option. There was no nearby "advanced western ally" to help them out.

If we shiver in our dhotis today about China it is because China too has gone ahead with their own tech which was rust bucket, failure prone tech initially but has got better. I am certain that the way forward for the Indian armed forces will have to be to support Indian industry and innovation to be sanctions proof. There is no other option for a country to rise to the top of the heap.


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PostPosted: 13 May 2012 20:24 
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Indigenisation is only mantra for country big like india both economically and geographically. India at present can sustain large investements in R&D unlike other small nations. In todays' world, hardly any full fledged war is possible. And no gadget with big specification can be called no 1 in battlefield, all that matter is man behind it. So, why dont we try ourselves with mediocre indigenous R&D machine and not best of world. Or do we think every developed country in world uses only best ?

Morever, R&D helps development of future local industry and community as whole.


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PostPosted: 13 May 2012 23:33 
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shiv wrote:
My late cousin Suresh once described a Russian from the Sukhoi design bureau who was asked about technology. He puffed up his chest, patted it and said "What is technology? I am technology.".


I am technology, shivji and readers. My hands can do a lot of things.

I have recently r2ied, but I believe I might emigrate once more to do things that I cannot in India.

I'm in delhi.
in this globalised world, US is as far as UP is, and Britain is like Bihar.

So...proud Indian...but not ashamed of emigration to do good work, am I.


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PostPosted: 14 May 2012 02:04 
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mahadevbhu wrote:
shiv wrote:
My late cousin Suresh once described a Russian from the Sukhoi design bureau who was asked about technology. He puffed up his chest, patted it and said "What is technology? I am technology.".


I am technology, shivji and readers. My hands can do a lot of things.

I have recently r2ied, but I believe I might emigrate once more to do things that I cannot in India.

I'm in delhi.
in this globalised world, US is as far as UP is, and Britain is like Bihar.

So...proud Indian...but not ashamed of emigration to do good work, am I.


don't be too excited. you will be on the other side again, when you realize how little you can do from within. sit under a tree,smile and meditate a little.


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PostPosted: 14 May 2012 10:13 
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There is a semi-philosophical question that asks "When is a fighter really ready for operational flying?"

I don't know the real answer to this question but I guess a safe answer would be "A fighter is ready for operational flying when it is capable of performing the roles envisaged for it in an air force which inducts the fighter, is reliable, and is available in adequate numbers and is fully serviceable when required"

Clearly this is a broad general definition where specifics are left vague. But using the above broad definition I am tempted to think that Air Forces of the world induct aircraft only when they reach that stage as per the definition above. But hey presto, when I look back at the history of military aviation, this is what I find, from WiKi and I post that at the bottom. If you read the list you find that the richest and most powerful country on earth has a record of inducting fighters long before they were really ready. Many were plain unsafe. I am sure the US could have turned to Britain or France for imports. But they did not.

I post his in the context of when the LCA will be declared as ready, but I do feel a separate thread on the evolution of military aviation along with industrial development may be a good idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_ ... Phantom_II
Quote:
In air combat, the Phantom's greatest advantage was its thrust, which permitted
a skilled pilot to engage and disengage from the fight at will.[37] The massive
aircraft, designed to fire radar-guided missiles from beyond visual range,
lacked the agility of its Soviet opponents and was subject to adverse yaw during
hard maneuvering. Although thus subject to irrecoverable spins during aileron
rolls, pilots reported the aircraft to be very communicative and easy to fly on
the edge of its performance envelope. In 1972, the F-4E model was upgraded with
leading edge slats on the wing, greatly improving high angle of attack
maneuverability at the expense of top speed.[38]

The J79 engines produced noticeable amounts of black smoke, a severe
disadvantage in that the enemy could spot the aircraft.[39] This was solved on
the F-4S fitted with the −10A engine variant which used a smoke-free
combustor.[40]

The F-4's biggest weakness, as it was initially designed, was its lack of an
internal cannon. For a brief period, doctrine held that turning combat would be
impossible at supersonic speeds and little effort was made to teach pilots air
combat maneuvering. In reality, engagements quickly became subsonic.
Furthermore, the relatively new heat-seeking and radar-guided missiles at the
time were frequently reported as unreliable and pilots had to use multiple shots
(also known as ripple-firing), just to hit one enemy fighter. To compound the
problem, rules of engagement in Vietnam precluded long-range missile attacks in
most instances, as visual identification was normally required. Many pilots
found themselves on the tail of an enemy aircraft but too close to fire
short-range Falcons or Sidewinders. Although in 1967 USAF F-4Cs began carrying
SUU-16 external gunpods containing a 20 mm (.79 in) M61 Vulcan Gatling cannon,
USAF cockpits were not equipped with lead-computing gunsights,until the
introduction of the SUU-23, virtually assuring a miss in a maneuvering fight.
Some Marine Corps aircraft carried two pods for strafing. In addition to the
loss of performance due to drag, combat showed the externally mounted cannon to
be inaccurate unless frequently boresighted, yet far more cost-effective than
missiles. The lack of a cannon was finally addressed by adding an internally
mounted 20 mm (.79 in) M61 Vulcan on the F-4E.[38]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought_F-8_Crusader
Quote:
The Crusader was not an easy aircraft to fly, and was often unforgiving in
carrier landings where it suffered from yaw instability, and the
poorly-designed, castered nose wheel made steering on the deck problematic. It
earned a reputation as an "ensign killer" during its early service
introduction.[9] The nozzle and air intake were so low when the aircraft was on
the ground or the flight deck that the crews called the plane "the Gator." Not
surprisingly, the Crusader's mishap rate was relatively high compared to its
contemporaries, the Douglas A-4 Skyhawk and the F-4 Phantom II. However, the
aircraft did possess some amazing capabilities, as proved when several Crusader
pilots took off with the wings folded. One of these episodes took place on 23
August 1960; a Crusader with the wings folded took off from Napoli Capodichino
in full afterburner, climbed to 5,000 ft (1,500 m) and then returned to land
successfully. The pilot, absent minded but evidently a good "stick man,"
complained that the control forces were higher than normal. The Crusader was
capable of flying in this state, though the pilot would be required to reduce
aircraft weight by ejecting stores and fuel prior to landing.[3]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Amer ... uper_Sabre
Quote:
The F-100A officially entered USAF service on 27 September 1954 with 479th
Fighter Wing at George AFB, CA. By 10 November 1954, the F-100As suffered six
major accidents due to flight instability, structural failures, and hydraulic
system failures, prompting the Air Force to ground the entire fleet until
February 1955. The 479th finally became operational in September 1955. Due to
ongoing problems, the Air Force began phasing out the F-100A in 1958, with the
last aircraft leaving active duty in 1961. By that time, 47 aircraft were lost
in major accidents.[2] Escalating tension due to construction of the Berlin Wall
in August 1961 forced the USAF to recall the F-100As into active service in
early 1962. The aircraft was finally retired in 1970.

By the time the F-105 mock-up had been completed in October 1953, the aircraft
had grown so large that the Allison J71 turbojet intended for it, was abandoned
in favor of an even more powerful Pratt & Whitney J75. Anticipating a protracted
development of the engine, it was expected that the first aircraft would use the
smaller Pratt & Whitney J57. Near the end of 1953, the entire program was
canceled by the USAF due to a number of delays and uncertainties regarding the
aircraft, however on 28 June 1954, the USAF officially ordered 15 F-105s (two
YF-105As, four YF-105Bs, six F-105Bs and three RF-105Bs) under the Weapon System
designation WS-306A.[5][9][10]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-105_Thunderchief
Quote:
By the time the F-105 mock-up had been completed in October 1953, the aircraft
had grown so large that the Allison J71 turbojet intended for it, was abandoned
in favor of an even more powerful Pratt & Whitney J75. Anticipating a protracted
development of the engine, it was expected that the first aircraft would use the
smaller Pratt & Whitney J57. Near the end of 1953, the entire program was
canceled by the USAF due to a number of delays and uncertainties regarding the
aircraft, however on 28 June 1954, the USAF officially ordered 15 F-105s (two
YF-105As, four YF-105Bs, six F-105Bs and three RF-105Bs) under the Weapon System
designation WS-306A.[5][9][10]

The YF-105A prototype first flew on 22 October 1955, with the second YF-105A
following on 28 January 1956.[9] In spite of being powered by a less potent
J57-P-25 engine with 15,000 pounds-force (67 kN) of afterburning thrust (the J75
was expected to generate 24,500 lbf (109 kN) with afterburner), the first
prototype attained the speed of Mach 1.2 on its maiden flight.[11] Both
prototypes featured conventional wing root air intakes and slab-sided fuselages
typical of the early jets; Republic viewed the YB-105As as not being
representative of the true capability of the aircraft due to numerous changes
prior to production.[12] Insufficient power and aerodynamic problems with
transonic drag, as well as Convair's experience with their F-102, had led to a
redesign of the fuselage in order to conform to the Area rule, giving it a
characteristic "wasp waist".



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dy ... 1_Aardvark
Quote:
Lacking experience with carrier-based fighters, General Dynamics teamed with
Grumman for assembly and test of the F-111B aircraft. In addition, Grumman would
also build the F-111A's aft fuselage and the landing gear.[20] The General
Dynamics and Grumman team faced ambitious requirements for range, weapons load,
and aircraft weight.[21] The F-111 design also included new features on a
production military aircraft, such as variable-geometry wings and afterburning
turbofan engines.[20]

The F-111A mock-up was inspected in September 1963. The first test F-111A was
rolled out of the General Dynamics' Fort Worth, Texas plant on 15 October 1964.
It was powered by YTF30-P-1 turbofans and used a set of ejector seats as the
escape capsule was not yet available.[18] The F-111A first flew on 21 December
1964 from Carswell AFB, Texas.[22] The first F-111B was also equipped with
ejector seats and first flew on 18 May 1965.[23][24]

To address stall issues in certain parts of the flight regime, the engine inlet
design was modified in 1965-66, ending with the "Triple Plow I" and "Triple Plow
II" designs.[25] The F-111A achieved a speed of Mach 1.3 in February 1965 with
an interim intake design.[18][25] Cracks in the F-111's wing attach points were
first discovered in 1968 during ground fatigue testing, and an F-111 was crashed
the following year due to the issue. The attach structure required redesign and
testing to ensure adequate design and workmanship.[26] Flight testing of the
F-111A ran through 1973.[27]

The F-111B was canceled by the Navy in 1968 due to weight and performance
issues, along with the need for additional fighter requirements.


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PostPosted: 14 May 2012 16:07 
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Quote:
The DRDO has not fixed any time frame to fully develop the Kaveri Aero Engine for the LCA..........

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=83706


It is planned to commence flight trials for Technology Demonstration of Kaveri Engine with LCA Tejas Mk-I in about 3 years time.




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PostPosted: 14 May 2012 16:57 
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What concerns me is denial of technology and out doing that in certain areas are measured up, with respect to other critical and precision engineering space like jet engines etc. Not many countries have established leadership without strong real-time commitments to such projects.

It is not the same as building rockets.. building kaveri and usable is not a joke.. but at the same time, there was no stricter technology denial regime for kaveri.. they had more than required data for certain aspects of the precision engineering, but here it was more of facility and complexity of the project under totally directionless project management setup, and politics.

GTRE must wake up, and get itself to the fore only by engaging itself to asking more facilities and technology tools and engineering equipments. production engineering is the next thing, that we will expect we lag in many ways.

Without grumov, we would not have even seen Kaveri in some form.. these are critical aspects in product-ization. And the requirements do NOT change drastically for jet engines.. unless project management totally messes it up.. The needs of 90kN from 76kN up thrust means only those data of Kaveri can be used to develop advanced versions.. it is entirely new project.


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PostPosted: 14 May 2012 19:24 
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Shiv, Grudgingly have to accept your theory, that history has come back to bite and India is still a class ridden society though most of us do not (want) appear that way on the surface.

As for the technological background, and culture, In Massa land, if you drive around in any city, you might find some houses where a small plane is parked in front of a house with its engine showing, some times being worked on by the owner along with his kids in the garage - safe to assume a % of them built on their own with kits or otherwise. Travel to any small airport in Massa land, to see how many people do own their own planes fly them regularly on the weekend. Not all of them work or build the planes, but a % do. These planes are small and there is no way to compare them to fighters being talked about here, but creates a base for some private cos to spring up when there is opportunity. Well if you talk about the cars or boats, there will be several more who have built their own and modified as it is easier to do so.

It is almost rare to find such examples in India, There is simply no way owner of the plane is working on the plane in a garage or even polishing it. They have "People" to polish it and a firang team to service it. Not saying that same culture has to exist (but preferred), but there is no way one can bring in this culture to play with designs and create a curiosity around designs by pressing a button. One long and a decent way is to get such pieces introduced in the class rooms and hope this gets picked up in one or two generations time - One thing is in India's favor, one can just play a numbers game and it almost always works. Still begs the question, in a class ridden society how few brilliant students can be persuaded to opt for this when software/MBA/MD (white collar jobs) are luring them out.

Now that I said we could generate some base level culture in a generation's time. So jumping on me if that does not happen is silly. And if one expects the students to build a 6 generation aircraft and a Genx tank because of the investments in the education and demand a refund, not sane either.

It takes a handful of brilliant designers to come up with great designs, but there has to be a culture/environment to nurture a big pool of talent to get these handful.


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PostPosted: 14 May 2012 20:12 
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Venkat - I am moving this topic to a new thread/alternate thread, because I believe I have a lot more to say, wrong or right. Thanks for validating my observations about the US, but things may not be that bleak in India.


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PostPosted: 14 May 2012 22:37 
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Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1849 Test Flights successfully. (12-May-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-342,LSP1-74,LSP2-207,PV5-36,LSP3-50,LSP4-53,LSP5-82,LSP7-2,NP1-1)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1848 Test Flights successfully. (09-May-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-342,LSP1-74,LSP2-207,PV5-36,LSP3-50,LSP4-52,LSP5-82,LSP7-2,NP1-1)

and ack thoo to your post KB


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PostPosted: 14 May 2012 23:30 
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Indian Air Force received the first fighter aircraft Tejas(Translated text from Russian site, how come our local media has not picked this news, dated : 13.05.2012)

Quote:
Indian Air Force received the first light fighter Tejas, worked out by the Organization of the Indian Defense Research and Development (DRDO) in 1983, reports The Times of India. The transfer took place on the plane at the airport in Bangalore, HAL. Now the next few months, the Indian Air Force will conduct tests on the Tejas combat use, then it can be accepted for service. In total, the Indian Air Force got a long Tejas; 19 more such aircraft will be transferred to the military in the near future. In total, the Indian Air Force ordered 40 fighter aircraft Tejas, which will be formed from the two squadrons. On the future plans of the purchase of combat aircraft while it is not known. Tejas squadron will be based near Koimbattura and Tuticorin in Tamil Nadu. As expected, the new fighter will be formally adopted by the Air Force to the beginning of 2012. Tejas was created as a replacement of obsolete Soviet MiG-21 fighters. The fighter capable of speeds up to 1.9 thousand kilometers per hour, and its flight range is about two thousand kilometers. The fighter is armed with 23-millimeter cannon, and has eight points of suspension for various types of missiles, as well as adjustable and svobodnopadayuschih bombs. At present, based on the deck creates a version of the Tejas aircraft for the Indian Navy, as well as training and combat aircraft. In addition, now DRDO is developing Tejas Mk.II, a significantly improved version of the fighter.


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PostPosted: 15 May 2012 03:48 
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fanne, marten.. hit that ! button to get fast response.


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PostPosted: 15 May 2012 05:57 
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kalkibhagwan banned


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PostPosted: 15 May 2012 17:46 
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I did post a couple of posts in Abhibushan's blog here ,on the empty weight and stuff.

This was in response to Prof Pradyut Das' post which I think is flawed by comparing a Mig21 and LCA and hence making a conclusion on structural efficiency.

Why if we do the same comparison of the kind Pradyut is advocating between a Mig21 and say a Spitfire, you will conclude that the Spitfire is structurally more "efficient" than a Mig-21! That is simply not an apple to apples comparison, for instance, the Spitty is never going to pull the same Gs as a Mig-21, not carry the payload and fuel, and equipment..come ,on in terms of additional equipment, the Spitfire probably had a radio and that was it!

So if you compare the two, it ignores the fact that the Mig21 is designed to pull higher Gs, carry more stuff and probably lasts longer than a Spitty in terms of airframe hours and all that of course needs a heavier structure per unit area, and so doesn't mean that the Spitty is structurally more "efficient". Comparing a Mig21 to a F104 makes sense, I would think.


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PostPosted: 15 May 2012 17:49 
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i guess when we talk about structural efficiency of fighter jets, is it not least drag the primary factor? but then again, when one considers turns, appropriate drag matters.


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PostPosted: 16 May 2012 11:21 
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--cross post
Quote:
This one is better:
SHIVALIK: India's New Generation Warship
By Vice Adm Rajeshwer Nath
Issue: Vol 25.2 Apr-Jun 2010 | Date: 07 March, 2012


Hmm interesting. It is to the Navy's credit that a Naval Architect and a purely technical person from the constructor branch rises to to a Vice Admiral. Pretty good for a person from a non combatant arm. The last I heard of him in the early 90s, he was a Rear Admiral and I thought that is as far as a non com goes.Looks like he rose further and then retired.

The day, the Air Force and Army get equivalent Aerospace Enggs and Mech Enggs into their force and give them clear career paths that let them rise to levels of seniority, will be when those services can redeem themselves from the rut they are stuck in wrt modernization and weapons development


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PostPosted: 16 May 2012 14:11 
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^^
Whats so unique about that? Technical people would obviously need to rise to high ranks in all 3 branches. For eg: IA would obviously need to rise doctors to Lt.Gen ranks to lead Army Medical Corps formations and institutions. Same goes for EME, signals etc.
So, there are Lt Gen or equivalent rank technical Officers in all 3 Armed Forces. IN is not doing anything unique here.


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PostPosted: 16 May 2012 14:14 
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I read Prodyut Das's posts on abhibhushans blog.

I wonder why he resorts to very emotional, airy fairy comparisons (arctic circle and all) and posts. Quite a turn off, coming from a professional.


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PostPosted: 17 May 2012 08:31 
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negi wrote:
Tejas when conceptualised was supposed to be powered by Kaveri , Rd-33 dimension and size wise is a much bigger engine while F404 was closest to Kaveri's dimensions .


Interestingly, JF-17 which is a aircraft similar in dimensions to the LCA is powered by a RD-33 Variant. As a separate exercise would love to understand from the gurus how the LCA compares with the JF-17.


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PostPosted: 17 May 2012 09:19 
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pushkar - even PAF (or some Pak politician - Nawaz Sharif) has said that the JF-17 is not comparable to the LCA. You may have committed hara kiri on this forum with that statement.


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PostPosted: 17 May 2012 10:06 
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I wanted to post in LCA thread but posted it in UAV forum, anyway posting again, cross post:-

I think alongwith discussing the past, it is equally important to use this knowledge for the future, so what are the suggestions by the Gurus for the future? My take:-

1. Continue Su-30MKI production till atleast 2025 as PAKFA production will only stabalise around 2022-25. This will prevent reoccurance of same problem when we closed Mig-21 line too early and spent lot of money in upgrading old airframes.

2. Upgradation of “old” Su-30MKI airframes should be delayed after 2025 and should be done by using indigenous technology.

3. Order additional SU-30MKI and increase requiermnt of PAKFA to 350 to prevent piecemeal orders.

4. Permit development of LCA as AJT

5. Use LCA + “indigenous” Kaveri for UCAV

6. JV Kaveri should be atleast 120kn to cater for weight overshoot in AMCA

7. AMCA development budget should be atleast US$ 20Billion

8. We should participate in development of new engine and radar of PAKFA

9. We should start development programme for 800-1600hp turboprop/turboshaft engine as technology follow on of Garret and Shakti engine series.


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PostPosted: 17 May 2012 12:39 
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vic wrote:
I wanted to post in LCA thread but posted it in UAV forum, anyway posting again, cross post:-

I think alongwith discussing the past, it is equally important to use this knowledge for the future, so what are the suggestions by the Gurus for the future? My take:-

1. Continue Su-30MKI production till atleast 2025 as PAKFA production will only stabalise around 2022-25. This will prevent reoccurance of same problem when we closed Mig-21 line too early and spent lot of money in upgrading old airframes.

2. Upgradation of “old” Su-30MKI airframes should be delayed after 2025 and should be done by using indigenous technology.

3. Order additional SU-30MKI and increase requiermnt of PAKFA to 350 to prevent piecemeal orders.

4. Permit development of LCA as AJT

5. Use LCA + “indigenous” Kaveri for UCAV

6. JV Kaveri should be atleast 120kn to cater for weight overshoot in AMCA

7. AMCA development budget should be atleast US$ 20Billion

8. We should participate in development of new engine and radar of PAKFA

9. We should start development programme for 800-1600hp turboprop/turboshaft engine as technology follow on of Garret and Shakti engine series.


my reply here - viewtopic.php?p=1282875#p1282875

vic, no guru, just my thoughts -

Quote:
I think alongwith discussing the past, it is equally important to use this knowledge for the future, so what are the suggestions by the Gurus for the future? My take:-

1. Continue Su-30MKI production till atleast 2025 as PAKFA production will only stabalise around 2022-25. This will prevent reoccurance of same problem when we closed Mig-21 line too early and spent lot of money in upgrading old airframes.


this is bound to happen IMO though not upto 2025 but atleast till 2020. remember all Mig 21s will be pensioned off by 2017, some Mig 27s too will start phasing out sooner as more Rafales, LCAs start filling up but the 'catch' is entries will not match the exits. HAL already overburdened will be hard pressed to produce the numbers besides production QC issues will have to be sorted out too. also they have to setup new assembly line for the PAKFA. so SU 30MKIs for which the production line will have stabilised will see more inductions over and above 272 (?) as at present.

Quote:
2. Upgradation of “old” Su-30MKI airframes should be delayed after 2025 and should be done by using indigenous technology.


SU 30MKIs already sport indigenous items already. it is very possible we will see more in the times to come. there were indications that composites will find their way in the SU 30MKIs. i am not sure if this has already happened??

why delay till 2025?? are you expecting some of the upgrades can be cross breeded on to SU 30MKI from PAKFA??

Quote:
3. Order additional SU-30MKI and increase requiermnt of PAKFA to 350 to prevent piecemeal orders.


while SU 30MKIs are going to see more orders as i said before i doubt the PAKFA order of 350. where will AMCA sit??

Quote:
4. Permit development of LCA as AJT


agree.

Quote:
5. Use LCA + “indigenous” Kaveri for UCAV


they are already thinking along those lines but with AURA with modified Kaveri (snechma).

http://livefist.blogspot.in/2012/03/its ... ndias.html

http://livefist.blogspot.in/2012/04/ind ... -drdo.html

Quote:
6. JV Kaveri should be atleast 120kn to cater for weight overshoot in AMCA


even a 90KN kaveri should be ok for AMCA. remeber it is a 2 engined beast in medium class.

Quote:
7. AMCA development budget should be atleast US$ 20Billion


i wish we were USA!!!

Quote:
8. We should participate in development of new engine and radar of PAKFA


we should build on AL 31FP engine which we are license building and get the russians to do the same with PAKFA albeit with TOT in real terms including the metallurgy part of the components.

Quote:
9. We should start development programme for 800-1600hp turboprop/turboshaft engine as technology follow on of Garret and Shakti engine series.


absolutely.


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PostPosted: 17 May 2012 12:42 
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mahadevbhu wrote:
I read Prodyut Das's posts on abhibhushans blog.

I wonder why he resorts to very emotional, airy fairy comparisons (arctic circle and all) and posts. Quite a turn off, coming from a professional.


i have been posting too on the blog 'mainly' to mr. pradip kumar thakurta but mr. prodyut das too intervened in between. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: 17 May 2012 13:01 
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>> Upgradation of “old” Su-30MKI airframes should be delayed after 2025 and should be done by using indigenous technology.

seems to be the path the chinese have taken, culminating in the "J11" model that is nothing but a Su27 with more and more chinese tech.


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PostPosted: 17 May 2012 15:52 
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pushkar.bhat wrote:
negi wrote:
Tejas when conceptualised was supposed to be powered by Kaveri , Rd-33 dimension and size wise is a much bigger engine while F404 was closest to Kaveri's dimensions .


Interestingly, JF-17 which is a aircraft similar in dimensions to the LCA is powered by a RD-33 Variant. As a separate exercise would love to understand from the gurus how the LCA compares with the JF-17.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7V4waXZLxSE


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PostPosted: 17 May 2012 16:07 
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NP 1 First Flight video has been posted at http://www.tejas.gov.in/

Video URL NP 1: First Flight: 27th April 201

Cockpit view is amazing!

Check out the plane at 1:53, awesome paint job. It is a great looking plane!


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PostPosted: 17 May 2012 16:27 
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Damn that video is awesome. Esp the takeoff. I wish the whole thing was from cockpit view!


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PostPosted: 17 May 2012 17:00 
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LSP-7 Tejas's first flight video has attracted quite a lot of interest from Chinese IPs, second only to India.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPt06YJy-ug

Image


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PostPosted: 17 May 2012 17:56 
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Cybaru wrote:
Damn that video is awesome. Esp the takeoff. I wish the whole thing was from cockpit view!

Can almost feel my own heart pumping when the Tejas accelartes and takes off in the cockpit view...cant imagine the rush for the pilots!!


Is it me or does the NLCA abruptly jerk to the right( left for the pilot inside) immediately after landing and then revert to straight line after landing ( at 1:43 in the vid)?


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PostPosted: 17 May 2012 18:20 
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^^^ Ya the landing was not as clean as what we have seen with other LCA's


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PostPosted: 17 May 2012 18:38 
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was it tail wind? i don't think so... also notice increase in AoA after rear touch down.

fantastic video quality.


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PostPosted: 17 May 2012 19:46 
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Roperia wrote:
NP 1 First Flight video has been posted at http://www.tejas.gov.in/
Video URL NP 1: First Flight: 27th April 201

it says

Access to this site has been blocked as per Court Orders


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PostPosted: 17 May 2012 19:57 
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Yep access to vimeo was blocked few days back


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PostPosted: 17 May 2012 21:12 
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Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1852 Test Flights successfully. (16-May-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-343,LSP1-74,LSP2-207,PV5-36,LSP3-51,LSP4-54,LSP5-82,LSP7-2,NP1-1)

from

LCA-Tejas has completed 1849 Test Flights successfully. (12-May-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-342,LSP1-74,LSP2-207,PV5-36,LSP3-50,LSP4-53,LSP5-82,LSP7-2,NP1-1)

NP1 video is fantastic. Btw during landing the aircraft seems to experience a cross wind


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PostPosted: 17 May 2012 21:24 
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krishnan wrote:
Yep access to vimeo was blocked few days back

what do you mean? I am viewing it as I type for this post..


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PostPosted: 17 May 2012 21:39 
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SaiK wrote:
krishnan wrote:
Yep access to vimeo was blocked few days back

what do you mean? I am viewing it as I type for this post..


It is blocked for people with less than 10,000 posts on BR :P


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PostPosted: 17 May 2012 21:50 
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krishnan wrote:
Yep access to vimeo was blocked few days back


FB Page of the Video

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=3114393379575


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PostPosted: 17 May 2012 21:55 
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That video is FANTASTIC! I love the WSO-cam view, and the views from the two chase planes while the LCA-Navy floats through the clouds above the lush fields.


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