Bharat Rakshak

The blades used in gas turbine engine apart from being able to survive in high temperature environment also have to be usable for thousands of hours before being replaced. AFAIK the rocket motors of our ballistic missiles are not reusable and even if the materials used in them are used for making a gas turbine it might not give the desired hours of usability as wanted by user (IAF). Chipandas also have gas turbine engines to show off but they crap after 30 hrs. or so, had we been a chipanda kind of nation we would also have had a "working" Kaveri to save H&D infront of our abduls but since we are not hence our scientists have to work till we meet the desired criteria for the gas turbine. I think the deal with Snecma is all about getting these exotic materials and stuff.

Enqyoob is the Ayatollah who can answer these questions but don't see him around anymore don't know why ???

P.S. Moi an arm chair general myself not an expert in gas turbine engines



It's not "SoM characteristics" but Strength of Material / characteristics of turbine blade........ I guess that's what Saik saar meant.

First flight of Kaveri engine on LCA Tejas Mk-I in about three years’ time : A K Antony

http://idrw.org/?p=11417

what the babooze are not highlighting is the the change in requirements form lower thrust engine to a higher thust one.. what is the guarantee now that 90kN is the required thrust and not 100kN. requirements engineering is missing.


What is the T:W ratio needed? hopefully, we have done some detailed analysis on the requirement for the next phase.. it would be a national shame if we continue to ignore basics. we can't afford to do such silly mistakes in terms of drafting requirements even if we take time to meet them.

tranches based development approach is the only way to success.

wondering if BR web masters should be double emphasizing negative reporting?
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=18525

flight global will think no fraction of a second to slam anything Indian.. we need dr. saraswat and kalam ji intervention to correct our jet engine development images in public.

one another way is reorg, and get fresh impetus... I am confident we can do this all by ourselves - 100kN it shall be.

And what gives you that confidence? The Marut failed because of a lack of a local (or foreign) engine, the LCA has like the Marut, flown on a foreign engine.

Perhaps we need to be realstic and make sure that the Kaveri is successful (good MTBO like western engines) in the Aura UCAV and perhaps a trainer. Also Kaveri Marine needs to be used in IN Navy ships. GTRE needs to be re-orgranized. That is something people have been saying for the past decade. It may now be too late. Perhaps the only way out is aggresive recruitment of fresh talent to complement the existing manpower and investment to enhance facilities. We need to give them smaller targets - engine for a basic trainer etc. and see if they can come up with something in the next five years. If not then GTRE should be disbanded and talented staff absorbed into HAL/DRDO.

confidence from observing the capabilities established in complex engineering feats.
confidence from the performance of DRDO missile defence projects
confidence from ISRO's capability and remarkable achievements.
confidence from our fundemental talents - edu cream from IISc, IIT, etc.
confidence from the very fact that we desire to build an indegnous one.

--

Yes.. once problem is identified, we can't sleep on it. disbandening is easy.. destruction is the simplest activity for human and non-human chain of events.

reorg is a constructive thought. it is hard to visualize, and is complex.

IMO, the following Kaveri variants should be pursued:

• 120-150kN (w/ afterburner) -> FGFA-sized twin-engined aircrafts
• 90-100kN (w/ afterburner) -> LCA-sized single-engine or AMCA-sized twin-engined aircrafts
• 15-35kN -> IJT-sized single-engine or Hawk AJT-sized single-engine aircrafts
• 1-5kN -> Micro engines for cruise missiles and small UAVs

Further variants should be pursued for civilian aircrafts along with turboprops.

Saik we need to learn to walk before we can run. All the data from Agnis cannot help a single blade of the Kaveri. Till we have a breakthrough on that front, the MTBO for the Kaveri would not be comparable to that of western engines. A separate initiative should be looked into to work on Single Crystal tech. GTRE should focus on making the Kaveri work for the UCAV till then and for marine purposes.

agree, and at the same time, we can't let this puppy go by without corrections, where possible.

another issue is, if X walked in 10 months, I can allow Y walk in X+Y months. But we need that Y months well defined., giving all factors into considerations. Beyond a certain limit.. and once it goes into babooze hands.. jee, I can't imagine a jet engine decision done by baboo hands.

the reason, we need our special task force enaged on this, and ask for extra money on Kaveri++.

We need to do begin the Kaveri-100kN wala [cause, I consider testing at grumov is a walk by Kaveri].. we have learnt to walk.. we have corrected the limbs.. but the lessor learned here, imho, is GTRE was a bad parent.. it let an autistic kid to grow all by itself..without doing certain things in time [not technical aspects alone]... more from the engineering aspect - requirements, rating, thrust requirements, technology and materials needed. etc. it is a big project, and they just accepted what babooze gave them money. they think, they can create a magic. no please!.. it requires time, money, energy and efforts. It requires top notch people to work on this puppy.

We can't let the core engine be made with firang collaboration. We have to do it by ourselves is my point of view.. for this, we need to do something to GTRE. money+management.. just like dr.saraswat leadership is needed.

Seems like HAL may be contemplating designing and developing A 20 kT engine for

Military Trainer
Light Commercial Transport Aircraft
Business Jets / Private Jets
Military Transport aircraft
Light Compact aircraft
UAV / UCAV
Reconnaissance Drones

Go to page 3

^ from the link:
problem:-

solution:-

Just wondering about the challenge here.

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... RONTPAGE|s

End of Kaveri for Tejas?

I do hpe that is not true! We do need a engine for AMCA.

Insane decision. It is time to reorg.

If the report is wrong, charge sheet that dork media person.

The temp control is for an oven controlled colpitts oscillator. The oscillator frequency depends on the inductance and capacitance values. The challenge is that any new object
introduced inside the enclosed oven controlled oscillator module , changes the frequency out of range. so it was a challenge to modify the temp control mechanism with out altering the frequency range and drift. The design belongs to our good old friends, who are presently screwing us.hope its clear!!!!

I have been to GTRE a couple of times and it seems the org suffers from an acute union problem! Though I don't have much details about Kaveri as a project and only have knowledge from public sources, the 3 visits that I had weren't particularly on best occasions. On the first one, the employees (most probably the lower strata) had erected a huge shade infront of the main GTRE gate and were seemingly protesting against something. The whole gate was obstructed but people were moving in and out through the crowd itself. The second time, there were lots of slogans painted on the GTRE walls again protesting against something, what I gathered by reading them was about some election thing going on. The third time also, there was a small crowd infront of the gate (employees) with some agenda. Also, the premise doesn't seem to have very rigid security, in accordance to its criticality. How these things affect the work culture, I have no idea, can only hope that they don't. Maybe upgradation of the facility and better management can go a long way in solving the perils of GTRE.

^^^ OT
With public offices, I don't think that we will get any better than the snail's pace ... I am sorry to say this, but there needs to be much more personal gains/losses at stake than national interest for things to roll.

That report is misleading. We already know that for LCA Mk.2 99 F414 are on order and for Mk.1 it is F404. Nothing new here.

Kaveri is still in as far as AMCA, UAV and LCA Mk.3 (if there is a variant). So it's not an end of the road for Kaveri.

^^ OT sorry.

What was most shocking was the leader of the SC/ST union in BEML saying that Natarajan had not done anything for the SC/ST communities within BEML and they overjoyed to see him go. So this union business has become just like mainstream politics, appeasement needed all the time.

france seems like one country where many of the aerospace and semi facilities are totally under Govt ownership as national facilities, and even the major "pvt" players like dassault, safran, mbda, snecma, thales have substantial govt ownership. even ariane contractors under Astrium likely have some govt fingers in the pie.

inspite of this sarkari model, they have delivered the goods in terms of a pipeline of innovative products and technologies.

has anyone studied why it works for france and not for us - is it people (salary,rentention issue) which can be fixed by throwing more money to match the pvt sector or some organizational/process thing?

^^^

When it comes to Military-Industrial-Complex, it is always a public-private partnership. Without huge support from the public sector, private sector can not thrive in the defense markets where R&D costs are astronomical and prone to delays/cost-overruns/cancellation/small quantities order. Profit margins may or may not exist because of the upfront investment required.

it is the right people in the right place. PERIOD.

I too noticed this aberration about France. I can not explain it. However, the model of govt ownership has clearly been a dismal failure in India. Unless you are an arms dealer, Indian politician or babu, then the system is a beauty to behold. If even small arms have to be imported, we need to choke, stab and behead the baby then throw it out with the bath water. The system needs to be completely re-built from the ground up not some piecemeal reforms. I am not holding my breath.

It isn't misleading - read carefully - its the end of Kaveri for Tejas, not for other uses - UAV's are indicated in the article as well. Too early to make any definitive statements about AMCA or LCA Mk 3 - that last would seem doubtful if it continues as a single engine aircraft.

OT but look what the Home Ministry is importing from Sonia's homeland. It should be illegal to make something this ugly.

Deleted for posting twice.

er, the above assumptions about France's govt influence in defense corporates means khan, biscuits and germans do not have such influence (call it baliouts, senate-committees, oligarchical, monopoly, single-vendor...whatever) ? French becomes fairgame for khan psyops on "nationalized MIC", but both nations have the same bureaucratic meddling (board-nominees, bailouts, cut-throat budget cancels, scams etc), same snake-oil marketing types and same end-user lobbies.

The difference with India is this - they are willing to go out and hurt random nations. If their systems' fail or get outdated, their ability to threaten in future is gone. Hence the national consensus on getting things done, despite all of the above hurdles is good. Panda wants to be recognized as one such Guido-types and hence is panting for some years on a treadmill and doing dumpster diving for clues .

India has not yet shown any national consensus in becoming one. So we are just having C&C (chai and charminar) outside GTRE/whatnot and our phyjjiks package groups are referred to as "cottage industry". Highly competent boffins, but non-serious national establishment

I would like to know if voicing our concerns here in this thread is at least heard in the right ears at the gov. If it is not happening, then we are still in some bonded sense of firangi controls on key areas of required growth.

I see a scam in the way kaveri project is handled right from the beginning.. there must the super power world who are already supplying engines and parts to us, in the scheme of things.

absolutely, this is a wrong decision. /double emphasis

What's new about this? I mean we already knew LCA Mk.2 was not getting the Kaveri. Remember the competition a couple of years ago between F-414 and EJ-200 for 99 engines.

Correct. OT again but here is how it works in khan:

To be chosen a defense contractor, the supplier must have a successful track record of operations and a minimum technical QC rating. Unkil will favor those companies that have developed proprietary tech at their own risk and if chosen, will pay for that tech. Once contract is given, Khan picks up all development and tooling costs and guarantees a reasonable profit. Everything is done to ensure smooth progress of the contract, including a well laid out delivery schedule and advance payment for materials etc. There is minimal risk to the private vendor and govt business is the closest one can come to guaranteed profit in the private sector. Govt contractors have the inside track on future contracts going forward, mainly because they have become intimately familiar with the "mil specs". Unkil is integral to all operations starting with development of specs and design of parts and tooling and ending with testing, QC and shipping but it will not interfere with the running of the company. Govt engineers, contract specialists and private contractors are guided by the letter of very clearly written and unambiguous regulations and instructions at every stage and redundant paper/electronic trails are created. There is little scope for corruption. Contract specialists scrupulously avoid getting too chummy with contractors. This system is visible in everything from the F-35 to small arms.

I would suspect that the system is very much the same in France except that high-level chumminess probably plays a bigger part. Not a single major MIC today is purely government or private. They all operate on the principle of government providing direction and support and the private sector providing the expertise. The common thread is that there is no room for sycophancy or unanswerablity at any level and the sole determining factor is results and merit. Discipline is provided effectively in the private sector by the usual means and in dicktatorial regimes by the Gulag or a bullet in the head. India is the only country where the government runs everything and decades of delay, waste and non-performance are tolerated.

If the Kaveri has indeed been dropped, it is a positive sign and we may yet see an AMCA that joins the IAF in large numbers before it is obsolete. It will be as "Indian" as an Embraer plane is Brazilian. It is also a good sign that GoI has seemingly chosen not to window dress a Snecma core and call it Kaveri. Hopefully GTRE will continue working on jet engines but IMHO, it should be folded into a private-public company in which the government has minimal input besides putting in the money. Pay and perks should be BETTER than private industry if we want things to change in this critical area. GTRE (or whatever it is called then) should become an elite company that every top engineer in India or abroad wants to join.

sell Kaveri from GTRE off! tatas or mahindras could manage it... I am sure, there must be some change.. of course, gov needs to invest in test facilities etc. a 50-50 should attract them... now that will also ensure, they market Kaveri or renamed engine (better rename it to Firangi name) to IAF - upgrades for other a/cs.

That my friend puts in a nutshell all that is wrong with complete govt ownership of business and why it is such a spectacular failure in India and everywhere else on this planet. BTW the GOI owns over 250 PSUs. I cannot imagine the waste and incompetence within these entities. We have BEL and ECIL South Korea has Samsung

^^^ You seem to have read a certain book by a certain Atanu Dey. Okay enough of OT for the day from me. Back to Kaveri discussions.

In all its years of existence since 1959, has GTRE produced anything that has gone into serial production?

Believe it or not, in the early 60s GTRE was near state of the art in jet engines. The decline has been spectacular thanks entirely to the PSU culture of India.

So did GTRE produce a working mass produced engine in the 60s?

As long as they have not produced a flight qualified engine which is to say flown the engine in actual fighter aircraft for stipulated hours to get the engine and aircraft certified with each other , it really means nothing in actual terms.

We can have all the engine running on grounds based test rigs or on test platforms like Il-76 but the proof of the pudding is getting it flight qualified and proven.

Even proven engine from established manufacturer like Saturn 117 had to be certified for Su-35 even though they were developed from proven breed of AL-31 engine but with new hot parts.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19096

Bull.. technology complexity is there in all spheres.. the kind of risk Kaveri has is entirely different.. a human loss and machine loss is something different. a human loss is more catastrophic than machine loss.

safety critical system engineering has advanced so much into the future, that these orgs have to be re-organized.. perhaps sent abroad for engineering and managment studies, with tie-ups only for educating these men.

it is time kalam saab takes a peek here.

Might as well close this thread