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PostPosted: 19 Feb 2012 14:41 
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deleted.

this is the PAKFA/FGFA thread, not hypothetical yf-23/J20 thread.


Last edited by Rahul M on 19 Feb 2012 15:41, edited 1 time in total.
warned for OT posting.


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PostPosted: 20 Feb 2012 10:38 
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My sincere apologies to Rahul M ,and other mods for posting off topic material. I was overly excited to talk about my favorite 5th gen. fighter that I got carried away with it. My wholehearted desire was to inform you as much possible about other great 5th programs. I would like to see the India Air Force get a great(the best) 5th gen. jet fighter to defend it's people from unfriendly neighbors. I will try to not make that mistake again,and I couldn't send you a private message either Rahul M.I'm very sorry for that.


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 15:04 
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Russians seems to be planning a new stealth aircraft post 2020

Stealthy close support aircraft to replace Russian Su-25SM by 2020


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 15:21 
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^^ Can we push in AMCA there? Anyone.


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 16:36 
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AMCA is not a CAS type aircraft but a multirole fighter.


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 17:22 
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By 2020? Either this aircraft must have been in the works for some time now or it must be borrowing a lot from the PAK-FA programme. Given their funding needs for PAK-FA I dont see how the Russians could have funded this project in the first place assuming that it has been in the works for some time. If it is to be started from now on I dont see how they can borrow much from the PAK-FA programme as the nature of both of the aircrafts are diametrically opposite.


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 18:01 
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'Indo-Russian fighter jet better than Chinese, US aircraft'


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 18:09 
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I suspect this is a Unmanned Aircraft , since they are working on X-47B class UCAV with 15T MTOW ... but one never knows.

Perhaps CAS is too important role to be ignored in their doctorine ....considering they are still upgrading and keeping the Su-25 in service.


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 20:05 
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Austin wrote:
I suspect this is a Unmanned Aircraft , since they are working on X-47B class UCAV with 15T MTOW ... but one never knows.

Perhaps CAS is too important role to be ignored in their doctorine ....considering they are still upgrading and keeping the Su-25 in service.


Suspects may also include versions or derivatives of

(1) Su- 47 Berkut
(2) Mig LFI or MFI designs
(3) Some other designs shelved post 1991 by Soviet/Russo Labs


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PostPosted: 21 Feb 2012 22:22 
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Mikoyan LMFS ??


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PostPosted: 10 Mar 2012 05:08 
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Pics courtesy of TR1 - AFM.

http://russianplanes.net/ID69400

http://russianplanes.net/ID69399


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PostPosted: 27 Mar 2012 04:03 
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FGFA firing a missile from its internal bay. 8) Never seen it before.
Can anybody tell which missile was it :?:


Last edited by SagarAg on 27 Mar 2012 04:36, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 27 Mar 2012 04:22 
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SagarAg wrote:
FGFA firing a missile from its internal bay. 8) Never seen it before. :D
Can anybody tell which missile was it :?:


Saar, the part where the T-50 fires the missile looks to be a grab from some video game, most likely the Ace combat: Assault Horizon. I dont think the Pak-Fa has entered weapon release test phase.

The missile shown in the video is the R-77.


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PostPosted: 27 Mar 2012 08:41 
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what!!! at 1:15 in the video, pak-fa fires a missile from internal weapons bay!!! or am I wrong?

If I am right, why was that not published in a separate report?


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PostPosted: 27 Mar 2012 08:53 
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karan_mc wrote:
Russians seems to be planning a new stealth aircraft post 2020

Stealthy close support aircraft to replace Russian Su-25SM by 2020


I think that such aircraft are v imp for India for CAS role in Mountains.


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PostPosted: 27 Mar 2012 08:57 
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1:10 to 1:20 is graphics :wink:


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PostPosted: 27 Mar 2012 09:19 
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well done though.


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PostPosted: 03 Apr 2012 16:32 
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PAK-FA Update via Air International
http://www.mediafire.com/?k4lkyuyv9p7tmnk

Quote:
Just to sum up the key points of PiBu writeup

1. Structural cracks discovered on T-50-1 and vertical stabilizer cracks on T-50-1/2/3, its being re-enforced.

2. T-50-3 equipped with AESA N036, RWR, electrooptical jammer (DIRCM), IRST, decoys etc

3. New Izdeliye 30 engine will have 18 ton of thrust in afterburner mode and 11.5 ton in dry mode , for the current 117 engine it is 15T in A/B and 9.5T Dry

4. Izdeliye 30 - first production 2016 , PAK-FA after 2020 will be fitted with new engine.


Last edited by Austin on 04 Apr 2012 10:04, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 04 Apr 2012 07:27 
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Thanks Austin.


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2012 20:23 
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A nice interview of Sukhoi Chief

http://www.forumspb.com/en/download/session/162


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PostPosted: 13 Apr 2012 22:49 
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The protective coating against radiation for the combat aircraft canopy has been developed in Russia

Quote:
The specialists of Obninsk-based Technologiya research and development enterprise have developed the metal-optic nano-coating for the canopy of combat aircraft, which protects the pilots against radiation and intense solar radiance during altitude flights. It has been declared by the Director of Steklo research and development division of Technologiya, Valery Temnikh, Lenta.ru reports.

According to him, the new coating should be applied on the inner side of the canopy and it decreases the warmth of solar flux by 40% and the radiation – by 30%. In addition, the coating decreases the electromagnetic emission 250 times and increases abrasive wear resistance and wear resistance. "Various metals are applied to the canopy and the light transmittance should be at least 70% after this procedure", - Temnykh said.

Besides, the new coating will help decrease the cockpit’s radar signature by 30%. According to Temnykh, the radio signal is reflected by the finished glass and the quenched signal spreads in different directions. The overall coating’s thickness is about 80 nanometers. Technologiya uses special magnetron deposition equipment for applying the coating to the canopy. The coating will be applied to the canopy of Т-50 (PAK FA), МiG-29К, Su-30 fighters and Su-34 bomber.

The mass-media have reported in late March 2012 that Technologiya have used gold sputtering in order to protect the pilot of T-50 against radio waves and solar radiance. According to the Chief Designer of Technologiya, Vladimir Vikulin, indium and tin are also used besides gold. The thickness of one layer is 20 nm, and the overall coating’s thickness is around 90 nm


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PostPosted: 13 Apr 2012 23:08 
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cool... that actaully means, it deflects possible radar detection on the canopy as well.. so now, the canopy angles are important.


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PostPosted: 18 Apr 2012 12:11 
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Recd on email from Jane's weekly. Good news on PAk-FA

Quote:
PAK-FA to receive low-observable cockpit
Russia's based Technology Scientific & Production Enterprise has developed a radar-insulating composite coating for the cockpit of the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA fighter aircraft. The Obninsk-based organisation describes the coating as "unique", but it exploits similar technology to the coating used on the canopy of the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor


Looks like it will be as good as the F-22


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PostPosted: 18 Apr 2012 13:10 
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rajanb wrote:
Recd on email from Jane's weekly. Good news on PAk-FA

Quote:
PAK-FA to receive low-observable cockpit
Russia's based Technology Scientific & Production Enterprise has developed a radar-insulating composite coating for the cockpit of the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA fighter aircraft. The Obninsk-based organisation describes the coating as "unique", but it exploits similar technology to the coating used on the canopy of the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor


Looks like it will be as good as the F-22


I remember seeing a F-22 documentary (animation) in which the raptor's pilot's helmet is funnily shaped (like a viking crown), I assumed it was for radar deflection. With the canopy able to deflect radar the helmet wont be needed then.


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PostPosted: 27 Apr 2012 10:46 
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Work continues on the 2nd stage engine for the PAK FA

Quote:
On "Saturn" was developed conceptual design of the second stage engine for the fifth-generation fighter, created by the program "promising aviation complex tactical aviation" (PAK FA)

As of today we've created a three stage low-pressure compressor, a combustion chamber with an operating temperature of 2,100K (1,826.85°C) and a high-pressure turbine also [with an operating temperature] in the order of 2,100K."- said Burov on science and technology congress in Moscow.


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PostPosted: 15 May 2012 06:34 
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http://business-standard.com/india/news ... er/474329/

Delays and challenges for Indo-Russian fighter

Quote:
Seven years before its scheduled completion, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has already announced a two-year delay in the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) India and Russia are to jointly develop.

Defence Minister A K Antony has been saying the FGFA would join the Indian Air Force by 2017. On Monday, his deputy, M M Pallam Raju, told Parliament, “The fifth generation aircraft is scheduled to be certified by 2019, following which the series production will start.”


2017 was never realistic and frankly 2019 isn't either


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PostPosted: 15 May 2012 07:49 
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though they are 20 years behind the F22 in timeline in trying the same things, hope is due to lessons learnt in the interim and maturation of some technologies, PAKFA will be more affordable than than F22/JSF lineage and definitely needs to be more maintainable as well without the lavish 5* SPAs these munnas need. better to be 80% as stealthy as F22 and have 90% uptime than be 100% but suffer low MTBF of many eqpts reducing uptimes. we need a warfighting platform not a tech demo and psyops tool.

if it gets a FAIL on either of these counts, it cannot be our mainstay fighter in the heavy end and we will be reduced to MKI upgrades and fresh builds as the americans are forced to squeeze new life out of the Teens now.


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PostPosted: 15 May 2012 09:41 
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The entire article has interesting information on Indian FGFA posting in full

Delays and challenges for Indo-Russian fighter

The FGFA is the flagship of the Indo-Russian partnership. Both countries say it would be the world’s most advanced fighter. But interviews with Indian designers who have overseen the project suggest significant disquiet. There is apprehension the FGFA would significantly exceed its current $6 million budget, because this figure reflects the expenditure on just the basic aircraft. Crucial avionics systems would cost extra.

On the positive side, Indian designers say the FGFA project would provide invaluable experience in testing and certifying a heavy fighter aircraft that is bigger and more complex than the Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA), India’s foundational aerospace achievement.

The Russian and Indian air forces each plan to build about 250 FGFAs, at an estimated cost of $100 million per fighter. That adds up to $25 billion each, in addition to the development cost.

The FGFA’s precursor has already flown. In January 2010, Russian company Sukhoi test-flew a prototype called the PAK-FA, the acronym for Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsy (literally prospective aircraft complex of frontline aviation). Now, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will partner Sukhoi to transform the bare-bones PAK-FA into an FGFA that meets the Indian Air Force (IAF)’s requirements of stealth (near-invisibility to radar), super-cruise (supersonic cruising speed), networking (real-time digital links with other battlefield systems) and world-beating airborne radar that outranges enemy fighters.

But Sukhoi insists the PAK-FA already meets Russia’s requirements, says N C Agarwal, HAL’s design chief, who spearheaded the FGFA negotiations until his recent retirement. HAL worries Russia might ask India to pay extra for further development, particularly the avionics that transform a mere flying machine into a lethal weapons platform. That would leave the $6-billion budget in tatters.

The IAF clearly wants a top-of-the-line FGFA. According to Ashok Nayak, who spoke to Business Standard as HAL’s chairman before retiring last October, the IAF has specified 40-45 improvements that must be made to the PAK-FA. These have been formalised into an agreed list between Russia and India, the Tactical Technical Assignment.

A key IAF requirement is a ‘360-degree’ AESA (airborne electronically scanned active) radar, rather than the AESA radar that Russia developed. Either way, India would pay Russia extra: either in licence fee for the Russian radar; or hundreds of millions, perhaps billions, for developing a world-beating, 360-degree AESA radar.

Nor is the IAF clear on whether the FGFA should be a single-seat fighter like the PAK-FA, or a twin-seat aircraft like the Sukhoi-30MKI. A section of the IAF backs a single-seat fighter, while another prefers two pilots for flying and fighting a complex, networked fighter. During the ongoing preliminary design phase (PDP), for which India paid $295 million, the two sides would determine whether developing the PAK-FA into a twin-seat aircraft (inevitably more bulky) would reduce the FGFA’s stealth and performance unacceptably.

“The single-seat FGFA is essential for the IAF, and we will transform the Russian single-seat fighter into our single-seat version with a large component of Indian avionics. The twin-seat version will depend on the PDP conclusions,” says Nayak.

The PDP also requires Sukhoi to hand over design documentation to HAL, providing it a detailed insight into the design processes of the PAK-FA. Since India took years to decide to join the FGFA project, HAL missed out the design phase entirely.

The 18-month PDP, which terminates this year, will be followed by the ‘R&D phase’, which could take another seven years, says the HAL chairman. The FGFA would be designed in both countries. About 100 HAL engineers already operate from a facility in Bangalore. Another contingent would move to Russia to work in the Sukhoi design bureau.

“Our boys will learn the Russian language, their way of working, their design rules and their design norms. We are left-hand drive, while they are right-hand drive. The Russians say they would part with all these things,” says Nayak.

But the most valuable learning, say HAL executives, would take place during the FGFA’s flight-testing. “Unlike the basic design phase which we missed out on, we will actually gain experience during flight testing. This phase throws up dozens of problems, and we will participate in resolving these, including through design changes,” says Agarwal.

HAL designers also relish the FGFA’s specific challenges. For achieving stealth, its missiles, rockets and reconnaissance payloads are concealed in an internal bay under the wings. Before using these, a door slides open, exposing the weapon for use.

The Russians clearly believe HAL possesses useful capabilities, including the ability to design the AESA radar. Also attractive is India’s experience in composites.

“The LCA programme has generated a high level of expertise in composite materials within the National Aerospace Laboratory and some joint teams. The FGFA requires ‘higher modulus’ composites, which can withstand the 120-130 degree Centigrade temperatures that arise whilst flying at Mach 1.7 speeds,” says Agarwal.

Despite the continuing imponderables, HAL believes the FGFA project provides genuine technological skills, far more useful than licensed manufacture. Agarwal says, “We will pay some $6-7 billion to France for the licence to build the Rafale in HAL. In the FGFA project, a similar sum would bring in genuine design knowledge that will help us in the future.”


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PostPosted: 15 May 2012 12:10 
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Quote:
2017 was never realistic and frankly 2019 isn't either

Of course it isn't and it was never realistic. Indeed, I am highly skeptical about the Russian timelines for the engine development, at the 2100K temperature levels mentioned with sufficient reliability and robustness to operate like western engines. It should simply not end up like the Mig-29 engines with a terrible MTBO


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PostPosted: 15 May 2012 16:56 
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i hope the experiences will be transferable and documented.. and in addition facilities built at home to engage a pakda project if we need later.

sometimes, when it comes to cost.. that is where one has to realize paying our men of brilliance is important.. example would be DRDO men, who have performed with excellence.

importing and paying for the brain work and process, is easier and expensive always.. and we have not seen vengence for such payment.. otoh, when we ask for decent salary hikes for real designers at home.. it creates such a huge hue and goes into comparisons.


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PostPosted: 17 May 2012 09:41 
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This is my first ingress into this thread. I wish to convey my respects to all the members of the thread.

With regard to the post from Austin, specifically the portion that follows below.

Quote:
the IAF has specified 40-45 improvements that must be made to the PAK-FA. These have been formalised into an agreed list between Russia and India, the Tactical Technical Assignment.


Could the members of this thread, if possible, shed light on what these 40-45 improvements are going to be exactly.

I hope that one of the requirements shall be a more refined aft quarter VLO design. The Russians in their wisdom might have decided that given the low priority given in Western nations to the maintenance of deep overlapping SAM belt air defences, the susceptibility to aft quarter SAM shots inherent in limited all aspect stealth platforms was not a risk worth countering through serious investment. But the same shall not hold true for the IAF since its threat matrix obviously includes the PRC, which happens to have a pretty solid air defence network.

Any information/opinions anyone?

Thank you.


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PostPosted: 17 May 2012 18:29 
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http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=18547
lot more info.. so HAL do feel they missed out the design phase.. and the russkies will "sell that".. dunno on the past experiences with selling MKI knowledge.

And.. this is nothing but, another MKI approach imho. I would be really happy, if we can spend that money on test facilities at home.. it would really help build kaveri++.


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PostPosted: 17 May 2012 19:52 
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we can very well guess that all docs and design secrets will never be handed over. it is something more than MKI but certainly a lot less than what a new design like AMCA will involve.

AMCA is it. some things from PAKFA might prove enablers for it and save some time. but mainly the radar and engine the core legs of the platform we have to come up with ourself.


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PostPosted: 17 May 2012 20:20 
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Engines and the AESA radar + stealth to an extent what they have done are the major design stuff we would miss anyway.. I am not sure, when we put in our money, we have to reduce that investment, and focus on home grown aspects for AMCA.

Test facility is important, and as important as getting the design.. But a test facility can only validate what is in the design. So, whatever money we put in the test facility, must be ensured that it can be used for other purposes as well.

I would say, invest more on the sub component level.


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PostPosted: 18 May 2012 12:12 
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We took a long time to join this project and more ever i am not sure if two air forces in the world will ever end up with identical requirement for one aircraft due to doctrinal and tactical reasons...at best one might agree on broader technology goals and some tactical ones.

PAK-FA project was initiated in early 2000 when Mig , Yakolev and SDB were told to give forward their design based on RuAF GSQR , Yakolev was eliminated early on and it boiled down to Mig and SDB .....in 2004 SDB won the competition and Mig lost it although it was decided that all three design bureau will participated in further works as they got assimilated in the monolothic UAC, SDB design was futher refined and frozen in 2005 and prototype flew 6 years later in 2011.

Right now we have just provided couple of million dollar to the project for training of engineers and creating a draft proposal for FGFA based in T-50 design .......this will be a Brahmos like JV where each side will add their own stuff and keep their IP.

The actual big money will flow in once FGFA design gets frozen based on IAF requirenment , although i dont see any major changes other then the challenge to make a single seater to twin seater without much affecting its RCS and the subsequent structural changes needed for the change to take place.

Full rear aspect stealth like seen in F-22 will only come with 2nd stage engine there is a patented 2.5D nozzle design , the current engine will be the way it is unless IAF thinks a Serated Round Nozzle like JSF is useful and that can be designed for it ....not sure what is the trade off but it is doable.

The fact that even USAF has not opted for a flat nozzle for JSF inspite of having experience with F-22 design indicates the gains versus tradeoff is not worth and serrated nozzle is good enough for the job.


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PostPosted: 18 May 2012 21:06 
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Is there are comparison data on 3D nozzle design vs 2.5D w.r.t stealth.. I don't understand other the lower thermal image... If manoeverability is important, why not keep with the 3D, and focus on reducing RCS on the rear?

With regards to thermal signatures, we could go for jammers, retractable trailing pods (like Eurofighter), etc. And, thermal seekers do have not long range, so we should focus more on manoevrability than chasing the 2.5D..

IMHO, 3D nozzle, with good composite skins is what the need of the time. 3D TVC is the way to go.

q: why is that russkies chase after all that is the khaans have done? I definitely think we require 3D and nothing less. and, we can improve thermal signatures by various means including pumping H20 /chemicals on the exhaust on rearward OLS detection.


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PostPosted: 19 May 2012 01:44 
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Oye what is this 2.5 D ? Is this some trishanku kind of stuff neither here nor there ?


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PostPosted: 19 May 2012 02:19 
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I can see the pitch and roll from flat nozzle. perhaps the russkies have done some vectoring la x35ish for the yaw vector.

coming to think of it, X35ish vectoring is ideal for reducing more thermal image by having the vector panel suck off heat using advanced materials.


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PostPosted: 19 May 2012 03:16 
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negi wrote:
Oye what is this 2.5 D ? Is this some trishanku kind of stuff neither here nor there ?


I think the are referring to the TVC nozzles as seen in the present Su-30 MKI. Te TVC nozzles point 32 degress outward of the longitudinal axis of the engine. Therefore when they move along the vertical axis, they end up moving in a V shape instead of just up and down. The same setup is used on the Su-35 and PAKFA.


Last edited by indranilroy on 19 May 2012 07:16, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 19 May 2012 07:02 
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FWIW,

Russian AF to Get First T-50 Fighters in 2013

Quote:

The Russian Air Force will receive the first batch of prototypes of its fifth-generation T-50 fighter for performance testing in 2013, Col. Gen. Alexander Zelin said on Thursday.

“The work on the fifth-generation fighter is going according to schedule,” Zelin, a former Air Force commander, told a news conference in Voronezh (central Russia). “The third prototype has joined the testing program and the fourth is being built.”

Zelin earlier said that the number of T-50 aircraft involved in testing would be increased to 14 by 2015.




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