Bharat Rakshak

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PostPosted: 19 May 2012 12:01 
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^^^^

Well, I was serious..... Now I have to weigh the possibilty that the pic was a genuine leak, and the GSLV story is part of an elaborate cover-up, and you're all in on it...................... Or................. I was wrong. :-?

Oh well, "Go big or go home!", I always say!

Thanks to all who've penned appreciation for my efforts, erroneous though they were.

Yes, the post probably took a fair bit of time, but consider; that time was spread over the last two months.

It's amazing what you can accomplish in life when you forego spectator sports, video games and Facebook.
(I'll watch the Olympics and big boxing, big football (i.e. 'soccer') games, occassionally a bit of MMA and F1; but that's it; nothing regular; no IPL/ NFL/ NHL/ or NBA for me; nor DS-or-wii-or-whatever; nor Facebook/ Second Life, etc. either.

Life's too short!
(Although, there's always time to make a mistake, that's for sure!)

Kind regards,
RK


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PostPosted: 19 May 2012 12:13 
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After reading your detailed post, i was awestruck & a believer!


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PostPosted: 19 May 2012 12:19 
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^^^^^
Awww, shucks! :oops:


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PostPosted: 19 May 2012 12:22 
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we are envious of your efforts.
You did try very well


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PostPosted: 19 May 2012 13:13 
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Location: Dard bhi tum hi dete ho, dawa bhi tum hi, bolo NaMo, yeh Niku ko kya dogey!?!
Ravi, kudos on your effort. I admit spending time on verifying if it were what *I* wanted it to be rather than the other possibilities indicated by you. :) Admirable on your part.


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PostPosted: 19 May 2012 14:27 
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Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:
Confidential to Rakshak koti: What exactly did you think it was, in the first instance? (You never clarified!)

I was hoping it was Agni V.
It seems naive now but it was pure instinct back then.

And can anyone compare the size of the cap like structure with the size of K15/K4?
Also, from Indranil's pics the super structure supporting the Payload faring seems very minimal suggesting composite material and light weight, however the superstructure in the contested pic is build for something that is far heavier it seems.


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PostPosted: 19 May 2012 14:47 
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According to Tarmak
GSLV-MK-III payload fairing completes acoustic tests at NAL | Inter-stages, strap-on boosters next in line for qualification process
http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2012/03/gs ... letes.html
That clears all doubts.


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PostPosted: 19 May 2012 17:02 
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chackojoseph wrote:
jamwal wrote:
Even the latest Nirbhay post comes with similar disclaimer.

Ravi Karumanchiri:

If it's really a canister, then what do you think it's height is ? How will it fit into Arihant ?

and read tarmak's comments on the teaser picture in his blog.


I am not an expert. I have acontrary view. it could be the GSLV upper with sats loaded and protective cover (the plastic kindda thing) and then a casing.

If you cross Saurya (which is alleged K-15 derivative) and the alleged K-15 launcher (as released by DRDO), IMHO, this might not be the pontoon.


Sir Ji,

That was a pontoon onlee for testesting of K-15/K-4 under sea.

AFAIK, that was a universal launcher with capability to launch missiles of upto 2.2m dia and upto 12m lenght.

The sub-launched ones will be sleek for good accommodation and real estate needs.


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PostPosted: 19 May 2012 17:17 
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Correct Sir.

This is the launcher Image


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PostPosted: 19 May 2012 19:41 
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^Is that a pontoon too?


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PostPosted: 19 May 2012 20:35 
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simple size matter, and it should reveal what type of vehicle it is. Kxv or Av and GSLV would have at least 1:3 size ratio difference.


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PostPosted: 19 May 2012 20:45 
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koti wrote:
^Is that a pontoon too?


No. It is just a canisterized road mobile launcher.

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:
Thanks to all who've penned appreciation for my efforts, erroneous though they were.


That was quite an effort., and now I feel bad on missing out on your hall of fame. Since several had already called it out as GSLV's fairing. Now think about it.,if the person standing on that is looking so small., can that fit a spacecraft with 3 humans on board? All GSLV Mk III needs is then human rating. But again the gobernment's policy is in fits and starts and reactionary.

Quote:
(Although, there's always time to make a mistake, that's for sure!)


Never tell that to your parents though :ROFL:


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PostPosted: 20 May 2012 09:33 
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Nothing new about Pak’s latest missile, scientists tell PM
Published: Friday, May 18, 2012, 10:00 IST
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_dn ... pm_1690275
Quote:
Scientists of the Bangalore-based National Institute of Advanced Studies (NIAS), closely monitoring the development of nuclear weapons and missiles in India’s immediate neighbourhood, have concluded that the Hatf IV Shaheen 1A missile recently test-fired by the Pakistan establishment had almost the same capabilities of the earlier Shaheen 1 and was hardly an improvement of the previous weapons system.

Contesting the claim made by Islamabad that it was an “upgraded” and “improved” version of its existing intermediate range ballistic missile, the scientists have forwarded a note to the Prime Minister’s Office saying that they did not notice much improvement in its capabilities. Pakistan had gone ahead with the test soon after India launched its long range Agni-V missile which can reach targets at a distance of 5,000 km.

Significantly enough, the report hints at the possibility that the Hatf-IV Shaheen-1A missile might have been tested only as a response to India testing the long range Agni V. The scientists could not trace any major technological development in the missile which would have necessitated this experiment. The suggestion is that the April 25 launch carried out by Pakistan was virtually needless and was prompted by the need to make a statement of belligerence.

These scientists carried out their research under the International Strategic and Security Studies Programme (ISSSP) of the NIAS and made their inferences after having tracked precisely 40 ballistic missile tests carried out by Pakistan since 1998. They have been monitoring the various launches of Ghauri, Shaheen 1/1A, Ghaznavi, Abdali and Shaheen 2 missiles which Islamabad has been touting with much fanfare.

In the note, the NIAS says: “Information on the launch including an image of the missile was put out by the Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) of Pakistan. The news release claimed that the Hatf-IV Shaheen-1A Weapon System as an improved version of Shaheen-1 with improvements in range and technical parameters.”

Using the image of the missile put out by Pakistan, the ISSSP carried out an evaluation of Pakistan’s capability and analysed whether any new developments could be inferred from this launch to substantiate the claim of range improvement. The scientists concluded,“A comparison of the April 25th image with earlier images...shows no significant change in the length of the missile (11.5 m to 11.6 m) or any change in the re-entry part of the missile.”

In fact, the scientists have relied on various Shaheen 1 images of October 2002, March 2004 and November 2006 to compare the existing data with those of the latest launch on April 25. The study shows that the “operational flight length” of all these missiles is almost the same varying between 11.43 m to 11.62 m. The report says, “There are no changes evident in the stage configuration and the main aerodynamic fins at the end of the missile and the exhaust look similar. The overall warhead length is comparable with the other images...”

The only minor changes, which the report finds are that the forward part of the re-entry vehicle is shorter (the length in the April 2012 launch is 1.6 m compared to 2.3 m in the earlier launches) and the re-entry vehicle in the recent launch has no stabilising fins (the earlier flown configurations were equipped with a set of four fins).

According to the report, the changes seen are minor and are not inconsistent with some improvements in the re-entry vehicles including its control and avionics systems. There may be some reduction in the weight of the re-entry vehicle. “However, they do not appear to be greatly significant... and do not have much impact on the missile range.”

The report further states:“Our assessment of the range of Shaheen 1 was 673 km for a launch from Islamabad in a south eastern (Azimuth 135 degrees) direction with a 1,000 kg re-entry vehicle . We do not find any evidence from the image put out by Pakistan to change this assessment. Longer range is however possible if Pakistan has reduced the missile throw-mass to below 1,000 kg.”

This particular study suggests that the latest Pakistani missile test does not cause too much worry to the Indian establishment. There was an anticipation of such a tit-for-tat launch. Now that the data suggests that it was basically old wine in new bottle with minor tinkering, the Bangalore-based monitoring agency appears to be satisfied.


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PostPosted: 20 May 2012 10:32 
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I would like to see the report. I doubt they have fins for the RV. What do the Pakis want fins for it?


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PostPosted: 20 May 2012 10:52 
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Probably the mean this fins ? They seem to be though below the RV and probably at the guidance/payload adaptor section.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/pakistan/ ... heen_1.jpg

I believe the only red part is the RV and it probably simile ballistic RV which is given spin before re-entry


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PostPosted: 20 May 2012 10:55 
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Yeah those fins are for ahead steering of the vehicle and not the RV. Its purely ballistic. BTW the M11 looks like this.


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PostPosted: 20 May 2012 11:03 
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Agree Ramana , right now the RV looks pure ballistic ...no sign of MaRV or similar development seen on RV but it wont be far fetched to say they would be working in those front.


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PostPosted: 20 May 2012 11:11 
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Austin wrote:
Agree Ramana , right now the RV looks pure ballistic ...no sign of MaRV or similar development seen on RV but it wont be far fetched to say they would be working in those front.



Then why did the NIAS folks write about guided RVs etc in the Shine missile which is a copy of the M11?

I tried to see their report on TSP missiles but its only a title and no attachment!


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PostPosted: 20 May 2012 12:40 
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Well either they have more information on the latest test that we dont its possible DNA has just been given some synopsis of the report , it does not talk about any guided RV AFAIK and can see the DNA report but just improvement in guidance and control.

It possible that late model Shaheen have better guidance ( RLG/GPS etc ) improving its over all accuracy for a pure ballistic trajectory , not a MaRV but better guidance leading to better over all improved CEP.

My thinking is its just a normal ballistic RV which is spinned before reentry beyond that its merely a question of newer guidance releasing the RV with better accuracy for better end result. ...... small improvement but neverthless those folks might be monitoring the telemetry and tracking it via GreenPine to know the end result.


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PostPosted: 20 May 2012 21:25 
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<CONJECTURE>

1. Given that military technologies represent the cutting-edge triumph of science;
2. Because MaRVs are arguably the pointiest tip of that 'spear';
3. It follows that *current* MaRV technologies would not 'look like' or function in the same way as current commercial technologies (like wings);
4. Considering the mission profile of a MaRV, and the anticipated ABM countermeasures it must defeat, I would argue that India's MaRV will comprise the following features:

A] Thrusters for exo-atmospheric maneuvering;
B] Conformal control surfaces for endo-atmospheric maneuvering (not wings, which would overheat, have a large RCS, etc);
C] Autonomous final target selection / ability to avoid emergent ABM threats / therefore also RADAR or at least RADAR warning equipment;
D] Making this all happen could further entail ancilliary equipment, perhaps meaning that a single missile shot could entail; one/some of the MaRVs remaining poised in orbit; or a micro-satellite that could ascertain target damage/ ABM threats and appropriately direct these poised MaRVs; plus many other possibilities;
E] Altogether meaning something like "networked" MaRVs

</CONJECTURE>



COMMENTARY ON THE ABOVE:
I must add, the above conjecture applies to the world I see with my eyes; being the silly monkeys we still are; our "best and brightest" either develop sophisticated weapons or sophisticated financial instruments with their own destructive power.

This is the "Iron Cross" that Eisenhower warned us about in his "Military-Industrial Complex" speach; instead of useful things like renewable energy, abundant fresh/potable water, food and shelter, or universal education; which are the true keys to both individual human and societal progress.

Rakshaks should never loose sight of this.

Here's a Youtube excerpt of Eisenhower's 1953 speech: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGQ-wgPGTp8



[ADDED LATER: I think if the RV were spinning, that everything it's supposed to do would become that much more difficult. I think it would not be spinning, rather the ring-laser gyro inside it would be spinning. JMT]


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PostPosted: 20 May 2012 22:35 
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Nirbhay is supposed to have 24 different warheads, hope there is a cargo version among them which in the place of a 1 ton munition carries a rotary launcher in an internal bay

AGMs (Helina) are mounted on this rotary and assuming a loitering capability of 6 hours based on the Harop's specification, we could have our own first generation predator capability of course one way unless they have a parachute recovery as in Nishant

targeting information for the LOBL Helina is provided by NCW sensors

Predator's are not stealthy, but Nirbhay will be in part due to its terrain hugging profile, so we wouldn't need enemy's permission to go after non state actors, the improvement in loitering capabilities will only make this better

here is an example of weapon release from the internal bay of a pod, watch from 1:10 onwards



They could also add AAMs and ARHs to the internal rotary, the possibilities are interesting


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PostPosted: 20 May 2012 23:23 
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I don't think that Nirbhay is wide enough for a rotary launcher for Nag


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PostPosted: 21 May 2012 00:06 
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^^^^
Don't worry, I'm sure that some over-funded geek who is too smart by half is probably already working on it; proving mine and Eisenhower's point. ^^^^

Don't get me wrong; I'm all for a strong defense; India arguably being the most justified in developing her defenses, considering her neighourhood and history. HOWEVER, nobody should loose sight of the fact that India has many needs, and all must be considered. Also, there is the matter of timing, on top of prioritization, and next to other emergent (strategic) situations in the wider world.

YET, I would bet; air pollution probably causes more premature mortality among Indian citizens on an annual basis; as have all of the bullets and bombs aimed at Indians (even by other Indians), since partition (I won't say since independence); including major and minor wars, terrorism and insurgencies.

............. and that's only the air pollution.


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PostPosted: 21 May 2012 00:15 
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Stage set for Akash Test
Quote:
“Preparation for the mission is in full swing. This time the missile would target a Pilot-less Target Aircraft (PTA). Both the Akash and PTA teams have been camping here for a fortnight now. If everything goes according to the plan, the missile will be test-fired on May 20,” a source said.

Akash is a mobile, multiple-target handling and medium range air defence missile developed under the Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP). The missile system is uniquely configured and customised both for Indian Army and Air Force. It has a strike range of 30 km and can be fired from both track and wheel platforms.

The missile system has been configured to be part of the futuristic network-centric operation, most of the operations having been made automated. The missile, which has a launch weight of 720 kg, a length of 5.8 metres and a diameter of 35 cm, can carry a payload of 50 kg. It can fly at a speed of around 2.5 Mach and can reach an altitude of 18 km.

The missile is supported by multi-target and multi-function phased array fire control radar called ‘Rajendra’, capable of tracking 64 targets and guiding up to 12 missiles simultaneously.

The Akash system is comparable to the Patriot system of the USA. It can destroy manoeuvring targets such as unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), fighter aircraft, cruise missiles and missiles launched from helicopters.

Akash trial put off to May 22
Quote:
BALASORE: The user specific trial of Medium Range Surface-to-Air Missile (MRSAM) Akash, scheduled for Sunday, would now be conducted on May 22.

The trial would be carried out from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) off the Odisha coast.

A defence official said the Indian armed force would test fire two rounds of Akash missiles on May 22 and May 24. All eyes are on the fresh trial of the missile as it was earlier discarded by the Army due to reported faults in the system.

However, after a series of rectifications and advancement the missile was inducted in the Army and Air Force.

“We have a window from May 20 to 25 for the tests. Preparation has not been completed yet but we hope that everything will be ready by May 22. We have four missiles with us, but would carry out two rounds of tests,” an official told The Express.


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PostPosted: 21 May 2012 01:13 
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RK, The RV needs to be spun at re-entry to ensure the right angle of attack is maintained. This is for conical versions. A winged glider type re-entry is like the space shuttle but much smaller.
Look at the RVs for Agni TDS second flight onwards. its only with Agni 1 and a few others after that we see plain ballistic RVs. No fin/vin wagehra.


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PostPosted: 21 May 2012 02:03 
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^^^
From what I understand (and this could very well be wrong); there is a common misperception of how those connical RVs perform. They are not entirely like ballistic objects in atmosphere.

I do believe the 'pointy' end would face 'upward' on re-entry, with a broad, thermal-ablative-cooling disk protecting the 'broad' end of the RV, which would face 'downward'. (Alternatively, if you said the RV must spin in order for cooling of surfaces; this could be plausible; except that imparting/controlling the spin would be a trick in itself (more on this below).)

Think of how space capsules, and for that matter, how raindrops fall. The pointy end is 'up', and the broad/flat end is 'down'.

I don't think that spin plays a factor (though I could easilly be wrong). I know that the warheads for the POLARIS system were still (i.e. un-rotating) enough prior to re-entry to get a 'star fix' in order to correct for targeting purposes.

I wonder what role 'gyrostabilization' can play in trajectory correction for a MaRV. Conceivably, a perfectly connical RV could do some maneuvering with the right kind of gyros and enough centrifugal force on board.

:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:


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PostPosted: 21 May 2012 02:09 
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Any word yet on Akash MK II? it was supposed to test fired in 2012.


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PostPosted: 21 May 2012 03:25 
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Flight from disarmament


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PostPosted: 21 May 2012 03:52 
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Gerard wrote:


Its a fishing expedition article. Regular BRF readers can spot the numerous fallacies.

He must be on a slow weekend to churn out an inane article on the anniversary of POK II tests.


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PostPosted: 21 May 2012 07:40 
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not sure if he should say that about one can't be prepare for both war and peace.. and quoting einstein. einstein has also quoted, he is not sure about WW3, but sure about WW4 would be fought with sticks and stone.

So, what that would tell? My point is, we have to ensure Indian gene pool remains to fight with sticks and stones, where we are already the masters, and have excell in these martial arts.. WW4 - India super power - Einstein would have said too.


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PostPosted: 21 May 2012 09:34 
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Interview with Avinash Chander, Chief Controller, Missiles and Strategic Systems, DRDO.

Has some good info on Agni 5, the various changes like stage separation, difference in how the stages were done in A5 etc. Would have to bold everything he says if I quote the article. Read in full


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PostPosted: 21 May 2012 09:58 
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Gerard wrote:


He does come across as an idiot.Any sane country would hope for the best but prepare for the worst ! ( India s neighborhood needs no particular mention ) As some one famously said " If they need war , we ll give them WAR ! "


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PostPosted: 21 May 2012 16:59 
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dinesha wrote:
Nothing new about Pak’s latest missile, scientists tell PM
Published: Friday, May 18, 2012, 10:00 IST
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_dn ... pm_1690275
Quote:
In the note, the NIAS says: “Information on the launch including an image of the missile was put out by the Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) of Pakistan. The news release claimed that the Hatf-IV Shaheen-1A Weapon System as an improved version of Shaheen-1 with improvements in range and technical parameters.”

Using the image of the missile put out by Pakistan, the ISSSP carried out an evaluation of Pakistan’s capability and analysed whether any new developments could be inferred from this launch to substantiate the claim of range improvement. The scientists concluded,“A comparison of the April 25th image with earlier images...shows no significant change in the length of the missile (11.5 m to 11.6 m) or any change in the re-entry part of the missile.”

In fact, the scientists have relied on various Shaheen 1 images of October 2002, March 2004 and November 2006 to compare the existing data with those of the latest launch on April 25. The study shows that the “operational flight length” of all these missiles is almost the same varying between 11.43 m to 11.62 m. The report says, “There are no changes evident in the stage configuration and the main aerodynamic fins at the end of the missile and the exhaust look similar. The overall warhead length is comparable with the other images...”


How can they use some image as their basis for the assessment? You need more data for such an analysis.


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PostPosted: 21 May 2012 17:10 
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MN Kumar wrote:

How can they use some image as their basis for the assessment? You need more data for such an analysis.


The more they reveal about how they get their data the better Pakis will get at stopping the data from getting out. Better to think that the NIAS are incompetent liars and leave it at that. So yes more data is needed.


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PostPosted: 21 May 2012 17:11 
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MN Kumar wrote:
quote="dinesha"] Nothing new about Pak’s latest missile, scientists tell PM
Published: Friday, May 18, 2012, 10:00 IST
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_dn ... pm_1690275
Quote:
In the note, the NIAS says: “Information on the launch including an image of the missile was put out by the Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) of Pakistan. The news release claimed that the Hatf-IV Shaheen-1A Weapon System as an improved version of Shaheen-1 with improvements in range and technical parameters.”

Using the image of the missile put out by Pakistan, the ISSSP carried out an evaluation of Pakistan’s capability and analysed whether any new developments could be inferred from this launch to substantiate the claim of range improvement. The scientists concluded,“A comparison of the April 25th image with earlier images...shows no significant change in the length of the missile (11.5 m to 11.6 m) or any change in the re-entry part of the missile.”

In fact, the scientists have relied on various Shaheen 1 images of October 2002, March 2004 and November 2006 to compare the existing data with those of the latest launch on April 25. The study shows that the “operational flight length” of all these missiles is almost the same varying between 11.43 m to 11.62 m. The report says, “There are no changes evident in the stage configuration and the main aerodynamic fins at the end of the missile and the exhaust look similar. The overall warhead length is comparable with the other images...”
/quote]


More important in the Paki weapons thread, but they probably used the Swordfish Data but that can't be put ina Newspaper report. Otherwise stuff like 673Km range cannot be estimated.

How can they use some image as their basis for the assessment? You need more data for such an analysis.


They have probably relied on information provided by Swordfish radar like Apogee, otherwise no way they can state 673 km range etc.


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PostPosted: 21 May 2012 20:14 
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it should be given wide publicity as a way of cutting the paki propaganda down to size. more they need to test to prove themselves the better for us as it will reveal the true capability of the chinese weapons.


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PostPosted: 21 May 2012 21:56 
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^^^^
I would imagine this is a rigorous process that goes from morphology to metrology; determining fuel load, engine performance, etc.; given aerodynamic considerations, warhead weight, platform, deployment elevation, etc.

BTW: This same kind of analytical process is a part of why the RoW has (more) confidence in India's strategic deterrent capability (than many of the Indian 'chateratti'). Doing these kinds of calculations, we can see that the IGMDP missiles are very capable, often with significantly under-reported range, speed, warload, etc. The one area where the claims have been substantial, and also clearly demonstrated, is with the terminal CEP of missiles (accuracy). Strategically, this is the one area where ambiguity isn't advantageous.

RADAR data will only describe the test, and it's not necessary to test a missile to its full range, or with all its fuel, or warhead weight, etc.

To determine the absolute capability envelope, you've got to look at the technology directly, as best you can (morphology, metrology, engine efficiency, energic stoichiometry, flight parameters, etc.).


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PostPosted: 22 May 2012 04:16 
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SaiK wrote:
not sure if he should say that about one can't be prepare for both war and peace.. and quoting einstein.


"Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum."
"if you want peace, prepare for war"
"Epitoma Rei Militaris," by Vegetius (Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus)
c 375 AD

"To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace."
US President George Washington
First annual address to the Congress, January 8, 1790

In peace prepare for war, in war prepare for peace. The art of war is of vital importance to the state. It is matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence under no circumstances can it be neglected.”
Sun Tzu
c 500 BC


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PostPosted: 22 May 2012 07:31 
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BRF Oldie

Joined: 28 Nov 2002 12:31
Posts: 5268
MN Kumar wrote:
dinesha wrote:
Nothing new about Pak’s latest missile, scientists tell PM

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_dn ... pm_1690275
{Snipped}


How can they use some image as their basis for the assessment? You need more data for such an analysis.


Apparently an informed assessment can be made from an image.

Checkout Markus Schiller’s and Rober H Schmucker’s April / May 2012 analysis of the North Korean KN-08 Missile:

A Dog And Pony Show


Addendum to the April 18, 2012 Paper “A Dog And Pony Show”


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PostPosted: 22 May 2012 08:46 
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BRFite

Joined: 19 Oct 2009 06:40
Posts: 499
Location: www.ravikarumanchiri.com
arun wrote:
Apparently an informed assessment can be made from an image.


This is somewhat easier or more complex, depending largely on the fuel type and engine characteristics (which most images won't provide). However....

Liquid fuels are less of a mystery than solid fuels; and engines like turbofans are much better understood than are ramjets/scramjets. I haven't looked at the TSP missile recently tested; but if it's a turbofan-powered CM that is fuelled with their standard JET1 or equivalent fuel, then a pretty solid guess can be made, based on many known data points.

OTOH, something like AKASH will inherently have a lot of potentially hidden capability, because the fuel is proprietary (i.e. Top Secret) and no one has really seen the inside of those engines (drawings on IBN websites don't count!).

I would imagine that (remote) spectral analysis of smoke plumes figures in this field of technical intelligence.

JMT


[ADDED LATER: Rakshaks, earlier in this thread, I called into question "the credibility of the BRF brain trust"; but was promptly corrected myself. Accordingly, I would hereby like to reaffirm my faith in "the BRF brain trust". Sorry 'bout that, RK]


Last edited by Ravi Karumanchiri on 22 May 2012 08:57, edited 1 time in total.

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