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PostPosted: 26 May 2012 22:01 
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Aditya_V,

Thanks, will check it out. Certainly interesting if it can do that.

Kit/RK,

Both of you seem to be talking about AAMs. I am looking for an Anti-AAM. A missile that can intercept an AAM. Is there one out there? TIA.


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PostPosted: 26 May 2012 22:46 
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the R-73 claims to be able to able to hit AMRAAM like missiles targeted at the host a/c.


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PostPosted: 26 May 2012 23:01 
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NRao wrote:
Aditya_V,

Thanks, will check it out. Certainly interesting if it can do that.

Kit/RK,

Both of you seem to be talking about AAMs. I am looking for an Anti-AAM. A missile that can intercept an AAM. Is there one out there? TIA.


Rao ji., i was talking about the anti AAM capability of the mitsubishi missile., i will post the original link if i can find it. The seeker for this missile does seem to have remarkable capabilities, i remember thinking about it.They were talking about the hard kill capabilities of newer AAM missiles vs other AAMs.. guess this is bleeding edge tech, even Raytheon with its vast experience in AESA hasnt produced a working model according to public info.


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PostPosted: 27 May 2012 06:29 
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NRao wrote:
...

Kit/RK,

Both of you seem to be talking about AAMs. I am looking for an Anti-AAM. A missile that can intercept an AAM. Is there one out there? TIA.


By definition, an anti-AAM is itself an AAM.
No other kind of missile will likely ever be close enough to intercept an AAM during air combat.


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PostPosted: 27 May 2012 06:40 
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Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:
By definition, an anti-AAM is itself an AAM.
No other kind of missile will likely ever be close enough to intercept an AAM during air combat.


Has that definition been put into practice? Do you know of an "AAM" that can intercept an AAM? Looking for a country + company + missile_name. TIA.

(Aside: India, in the 70's and 80's, produced the most amount of research papers in the world. Very, very few of them had practical value.)


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PostPosted: 27 May 2012 07:05 
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Carlo Copp can be relied upon to write a different viewpoint well and with clarity
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-BVR-AAM.html

read all of it at the original site if you like

Quote:
Illustrative examples are the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and F-35 JSF, the latter armed in an air superiority configuration with two, the former with up to six AIM-120s [3]. Assuming the Flanker driver does not exploit his superior missile kinematic range and shoot first - an optimistic assumption - then the best case kill probability for the AIM-120 shooter firing two to four rounds is better than 90 percent. However, if we assume that hostile jamming and manoeuvre degrade the kill probability to around 50 percent - a reasonably optimistic statistical baseline here - then the total kill probability for a two round salvo is optimistically around 75 percent, and for a four round salvo over 90 percent. Arguably good odds for the four round salvo, only if the missile kill probability sits at 50 percent, but the F/A-18E/F or F-35 JSF will have expended all or most of its warload of AIM-120s and be unable to continue in BVR combat. In a "many versus many" engagement, the low speed of both types leaves them unable to disengage and will see both types subsequently killed by another Flanker.

This best case "many versus many" engagement scenario sees the F/A-18E/F or F-35 JSF being traded one for one with Su-30MK/Su-35BM Flankers in BVR combat, which is the general assumption made for WVR combat between like opponents, and representative of many historical attrition air campaign statistics. To achieve this best case "many versus many" outcome of trading F/A-18E/F or F-35 JSF one for one, we have stacked a series of assumptions against the Flanker - dumb Flanker pilots not exploiting a missile kinematic range advantage, dumb Flanker pilots not exploiting a firepower advantage, Russian BVR missile seekers no better than the AIM-120, and Russian DRFM monopulse jammers achieving a less than 50 percent degradation of AIM-120 kill probability [4].

A competent Flanker driver gets the first shot with three or four round salvo of long burn R-27 variants, with mixed seekers, leaving one or two remaining salvoes of BVR missiles on his rails, and the same Flanker driver will have modern DRFM monopulse jammers capable of causing likely much more than a 50 percent degradation of AIM-120 kill probability. With a thrust vectoring engine capability (TVC), the Flanker driver has the option of making himself into a very difficult endgame target for the AIM-120 regardless of the capability of his jamming equipment. Since all of the AIM-120s fired are identical in kinematic performance and seeker jam resistance, any measure applied by the Flanker driver which is effective against one AIM-120 round in the salvo is apt to produce the same effect against all AIM-120 rounds - a problem the Flanker driver does not have due to diversity in seeker types and missile kinematics.

Currently classified capabilities such as the use of the APG-79 or APG-81 AESA radar as an X-band high power jammer against the Russian BARS or Irbis E radar are not a panacea, and may actually hasten the demise of the F/A-18E/F or F-35 JSF in a BVR shootout. This is for the simple reason that to jam the Russian radar, the APG-79 or APG-81 AESA radar must jam the frequencies being used by the Russian radar, and this then turns the APG-79 or APG-81 AESA radar into a wholly electronically predictable X-band high power beacon for an anti-radiation seeker equipped Russian BVR missile such as the R-27EP or R-77P. The act of jamming the Russian radar effectively surrenders the frequency hopping agility in the emissions of the APG-79 or APG-81 AESA radar, denying it the only defence it has against the anti-radiation missile. A smart Russian radar software designer will include a "seduction mode" to this effect, with narrowband emissions to make it very easy even for an early model 9B-1032 anti-radiation seeker.


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PostPosted: 27 May 2012 09:01 
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do we know what is the range for AAS-42 IRST pod?
http://articles.janes.com/articles/Jane ... tates.html


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PostPosted: 27 May 2012 11:02 
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Did we miss this?
Akash fails to hit target on Saturday Test


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PostPosted: 27 May 2012 11:38 
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Hardly any reason to worry there , every SAM has a certain pk value for certain class of targets and even in those certain missile will fail for any number of reasons , wonder when did a sam failure during trials or even combat ever made news


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PostPosted: 27 May 2012 11:43 
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An earlier report said the missile intercepted a floating object 'supported' by the Lakshya. So did the missile intercept the decoy instead of the desired target?
Thanks for the correction, koti ji.
Patni wrote:
Surface-to-air Akash missile test fired successfully

Quote:
The missile, which has a strike range of 25 km with a warhead of 60 kgs, was test fired from a mobile launcher from launch complex-III of the ITR at about 1108 hours, defence sources said.

"During the trial, the missile was aimed at intercepting a floating object supported by a pilotless target aircraft, flown from launch complex-II, at a definite altitude over the sea," the sources said.


Last edited by PratikDas on 27 May 2012 12:15, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 27 May 2012 12:10 
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That was the Thursday's trial saab.
It was successful.


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PostPosted: 28 May 2012 10:34 
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Looks like akash is now a 25Km missile and rajendra radar is 80Km .There was failure on satruday.what's cooking up.R v testing its role against cruise missile rigorously


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PostPosted: 28 May 2012 11:15 
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even against fighters, multiple SAM shots to bring down to chase one away are par for course. there is no platinum bullet SAM with even a 80% PK in all conditions.


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PostPosted: 28 May 2012 13:00 
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Two more Akash Missiles test fired.
Link

That is 4 consecutive missile tests this week.


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PostPosted: 28 May 2012 15:17 
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^More info on above news item.
Now pull your hair
Two Akash missiles test-fired in Odisha, one successful

Quote:
For the third time in five days, India today test-fired two surface-to-air anti-aircraft 'Akash' missiles from the Integrated Test Range at Chandipur near here, achieving success in one while the data of the second trial was being analysed.


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PostPosted: 28 May 2012 19:49 
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link from Hindu,

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article3464773.ece

there is a mention of pitch up maneuver, does this point to a nuke warhead? anything else wouldn't need such a high altitude explosion for safety reasons

are the new tests about adapting to intercept sub or ship launched CMs?


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PostPosted: 28 May 2012 20:30 
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the pitch up maybe in case of a miss in the tail chase engagement of an inbound else it could crash right into the protected target


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PostPosted: 28 May 2012 21:13 
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4 tests (2 IA and 2 IAF): 2 successes and 2 failures. IIRC, the production agency of Akash for the IA was BDL and for the IAF, it was BEL. It will be interesting to see if the problems are QC related or something else


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PostPosted: 28 May 2012 22:22 
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^^
No, only one confirmed failure. The result of the other test is still awaited.


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PostPosted: 28 May 2012 22:56 
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vasu raya wrote:
the pitch up maybe in case of a miss in the tail chase engagement of an inbound else it could crash right into the protected target


correct. without bottom or top attack, there is a large chance of hitting the preceding craft. reuse strategy.

dunno, by what distance the following target is separated? and how long can it be stretched so that a test to hit straight from behind is also critical to testing. may be, they have done it trailing another missile prelaunched, and akash tracking and firing it from behind.

I am sure an head on collision is mandatory testing.


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PostPosted: 28 May 2012 23:03 
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Any ideas on the 60kg warhead of the Akash. It could make a potent ground attack PGM if packaged properly.

Is it same as SA-6 or something new from DRDO?


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PostPosted: 29 May 2012 04:46 
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^^^^
If I were to guess....

I would guess that the warhead itself would have conical characteristics, to produce a cone of heavy metal objects (probably tungsten) upon detonation; with the whole warhead assembly being gimbal-mounted and servo-controlled, to aim the direction of the tungsten blast cone in the direction of the target.

IMO, this would be the ideal type of AA warhead for the Akash.

As for what this would do on a ground target? :?: I really couldn't say, except that I would hope India would have something better in her arsenal for such a purpose. Also, it would pose a severe battlefield hazard for "friendlies", if an Akash warhead made it to the ground un-exploded, which is why I am pretty sure it is fused so that this could (hopefully) never happen.

Consider: The Akash warhead is intended to defeat aircraft, with light or no armour; whereas ground targets are typically heavier and harder; requiring something with more penetrative power.

JMT


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PostPosted: 29 May 2012 05:06 
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ramana wrote:
Any ideas on the 60kg warhead of the Akash. It could make a potent ground attack PGM if packaged properly.

Is it same as SA-6 or something new from DRDO?


Technology Focus Vol.7 No.5 October 1999
Quote:
Warheads

ImageImageImage

Different types of warheads have been developed for the missiles under Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme. In order to defeat diversified ground targets ranging from soft targets like personnel in open to hard targets like, runway, industrial complexes and built up areas, four different types of warheads have been designed and developed for Prithvi missile. The pre-fragmented warhead is designed to neutralise soft targets. The submunition warhead incorporating Dual Purpose Improved Conventional Bomblet is effective against AFVs in the top attack mode besides being effective against personnel up to a distance of about 10 m around the point of burst of each bomblet while the submunition incendiary warhead is effective against inflammable targets. The Runway Denial Penetrating Submunition warhead is designed and developed to neutralise hard targets like runways, administration and industrial complexes and marshalling yards. Prithvi missile, both Army and Air Force versions have been introduced into the Services. The design of the warheads involved development of new technologies and sophisticated mathematical models (software developed based on extensive basic research carried out to design and predict the performance of warheads under various combat conditions).

Application of in-house developed software and sophisticated CAD tools have led to optimal design of various subsystems of the warheads. The DPIC bomblet, viz., antitank-cum-anti- personnel bomblet developed for Prithvi missile, has been made universal in design and is being used for the cargo shells, bombs and rocket systems. The warhead systems designed for Trishul and Akash missiles, are of pre-fragmented type and are meant to defeat aerial targets. Tandem warhead for Nag based on shaped charge technology for use against ERA equipped modern MBT has been developed.

The warhead systems designed and developed will enable the Armed Forces to have totally indigenous strategic weapon systems.


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PostPosted: 29 May 2012 05:34 
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what if the directional warhead (if is available on 'ground-attack' Akash) is made to explode right before the outlet of a hardened aircraft pen, don't need to drill through with bunker busting bombs

Image


Last edited by vasu raya on 29 May 2012 07:39, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 29 May 2012 06:36 
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what is the black slot up the side of warheads for? does it have a recessed lever which can be slid into various positions to set some fuse option?


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PostPosted: 29 May 2012 09:39 
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From tarmak:
Quote:
Bangalore: Missile minds in India are an excited lot after monitoring the developments of Russia's 'secret' test of an intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) on May 23. While information on the test and its results are in short supply, sources with India's Missile Complex in Hyderabad seems to have made merry of what ever tit-bit features that have trickled in from Russia's Plesetsk range. Topping the eye-catching item numbers are: the missile's lesser radar cross section (RCS) features, multiple warhead capabilities and the use of a new fuel, that possibly makes the propulsion phase faster. The excitement of Indian scientists can be justified from the fact that many of the new features tested on the Russian missile are the the ones being planned for future versions of Agni series.
Russian news agencies have reported over the week that the testing of the yet-to-be-named weapon is Russia's answer to NATO's missile defence shield (European).

The timing of the test with many first-time-embedded features came only days after NATO declared that their missile defence shield attained operational status. “We too have a very active Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) programme running, including a counter measure for BMD. It is one of our key activities and we are seeing reports from Russia with interest,” Avinash Chander, Chief Controller (Missiles and Strategic Systems), Defence Reserach and Development Organisation (DRDO), told Express.


He said some of the features that is reported to have tested are areas DRDO have already set its sight on. “The idea is to reduce the time during the cruise phase. How to reduce RCS and IR (infrared) signatures? What are the active counter measures in terms of the capabilities to mauouvere? These are all common interest areas for missile scientists world over,” Avinash said. To a specific question on the new features of Agni-V future versions, he said: “We are now preparing the canister-launch-system for Agni-V.”

The Russian missile hit the designated target after cruising 6,000 km, carrying dummy warheads. On the new fuel the missile reportedly used, sources in the Missile Complex said: “This could provide higher acceleration and enable high thrust-weight ratio. In Agni-V, we used a solid booster with HTPB (Hydroxyl-Terminated Polybutadiene) propellant during the rocket's active stage of trajectory.”

On the Russian missile's capability to launch separate warheads with independent flightpath – thereby ducking incoming threats, sources said that India too would have similar features in days ahead. “Agni-VI is a definite possibility, though we haven't designed the vehicle yet. With many developed nations moving towards mastering new maneuvering skills for their missiles, we are confident of meeting our targets too. The idea of multiple independently-targeted re-entry vehicles (MIRV) and manoeuvring re-entry vehicles (MaRV) are on our active radar,” sources said.


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PostPosted: 29 May 2012 10:37 
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well a all-composite 1st stage would naturally impart higher acceleration, higher top speed and reduce the vulnerable boost phase time even with the exact same propellant. this might actually help to make the A5 smaller or mashallah permit a long burn third stage that reduces the unpowered 'coast' stage to a bare minimum and also a depressed zing zag trajectory.

lots of good stuff a light superfast 1st stage can act as a enabler for.


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PostPosted: 29 May 2012 11:53 
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For Higher speeds in Boost Phase we can develop a Electromagnatic Firing Mechanism, It takes away lot of weight of Boost Stage and also reduces dimensions of a missile as well as provides unmatched boost speed later a SCRAM Jet can kick in to ensure a punishment within 20 min all across the globe. Best thing is we have all necessary component to achieve such a missile :mrgreen:
Hope some one in DRDO is taking notes.


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PostPosted: 29 May 2012 12:34 
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Austin wrote:
Hardly any reason to worry there , every SAM has a certain pk value for certain class of targets and even in those certain missile will fail for any number of reasons , wonder when did a sam failure during trials or even combat ever made news


During GFI US claimed super success of the Patriot SAM. Then the real news started. Conclusion. Did patriot shot down even one Scud ? I do not think so. If we are scared of a failure we can do nothing.

My only fear is that the DDM should not start a anti-Akash campaign and then somebody says that there is a superlative Russian SAM SA xyz, "almost" ready and if India were to give just a few billion Rs/US$/Euros/zloty/drachma, the missile would be ready by 203X !!!


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PostPosted: 29 May 2012 16:27 
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ramana wrote:
Any ideas on the 60kg warhead of the Akash. It could make a potent ground attack PGM if packaged properly.

Is it same as SA-6 or something new from DRDO?

It's range will be limited against ground targets (radar horizon) since its a command guided missile and require targeting from ground based radar. But SA-3/6 both had land attack capabilities and Shtil (which uses successor to SA-6 SA-11/17) can be used against ships. Akash should have something similar but why waste half million dollar missile hitting a target a dozen KMs away with just 60 kg payload.


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PostPosted: 29 May 2012 16:30 
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Singha wrote:
what is the black slot up the side of warheads for? does it have a recessed lever which can be slid into various positions to set some fuse option?

Looks like a marker for alignment of the warhead with the missile casing.


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PostPosted: 29 May 2012 17:30 
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are there any ICBMs ignited from 50k ft above dropped from An or 747 platform? along with the triad option, this would add a force multiplier for NFU strategy.


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PostPosted: 29 May 2012 19:04 
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yes.. it is feasible
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96A0wb1Ov9k


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PostPosted: 29 May 2012 19:35 
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Hi Saik, Do we have any such plane in our inventory to carry such airdrop of A4 (thats the only one i can think off) apart from C-17s. Is this feasible though.


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PostPosted: 29 May 2012 19:46 
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part of MTA program, I am thinking we can start working on a dedicated platform for this. jmt

well instead of drawing it out with a drag chute, and deploying from cradle, I am thinking more like giant pylons under the bay... just like any other air launched system... but the complexities, gyros etc, are very much important to this riskiest mission.. but pays well for the boost phase help.

after launch, there is a bit of manoevering too, just to be safe on the path. it is very tricky though. other thoughts are keep the chutes as drags after drop launch from pylons, and then give it a few seconds to detach the chutes, stablize for the vertical position and fire.

PS: chutes may not work from pylons. regular drop and manoevering would be an option to consider.


Last edited by SaiK on 29 May 2012 19:55, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: 29 May 2012 19:52 
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Quote:
are there any ICBMs ignited from 50k ft above dropped from An or 747 platform? along with the triad option, this would add a force multiplier for NFU strategy.


Quote:


So, does it mean that it is feassible to launch a 'Ballistic Missle' from Air?


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PostPosted: 29 May 2012 21:16 
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Yep.
The Skybolt was designed specifically to be an ALBM.

The Amrikis also did the C-5B + LGM-30 (minuteman) air mobile feasibility demonstration.

Amrikhans considered it once again pretty recently.

The idea was to use C-17 + CICBM combo for PGS. That itself was considered after tests were done under the LRALT program wherein an ALBM target was dropped from the back of a C-17 for missile defense tests.


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PostPosted: 29 May 2012 21:44 
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and I thought the Russians were the ones who were fond of batnuts concepts.

khan is competitive in the way out concept demos for sure.


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PostPosted: 29 May 2012 21:55 
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and the amrikhans consider the LRALT to be a more realistic simulation. :D


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PostPosted: 29 May 2012 22:32 
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Air borne launch platforms are considered unsafe and very risky. Think of the nightmare if one of them crashes for any reason.

Singha look up ideas of nuclear powered rockets very prevalent in the gungho 60s!


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