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PostPosted: 30 May 2012 07:41 
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BRFite

Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26
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Location: Atop Orthanc, cursing, "Damn it where are those backfires??"
^ super pics SNaik - she is coming along really nice. Beautiful ship. Hope the trials go smooth and the IN gets her operating by the year end.


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PostPosted: 30 May 2012 07:59 
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BRF Oldie

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Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
hopefully natgeo/disc HD will be allowed to make a "mighty ships" episode for indian market soon after she joins IN. tag along for a fleet exercise and roam all over the ship.

in due course hope to see one on the Arihant as well.


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PostPosted: 30 May 2012 11:51 
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Hi,
At least 4 months as serviceon board fleet ships to get watchkeeping certificate.
I think the total tenure is 6 months odd where they get exposure to seamanship,basics at sea,watchkeeping,navigation,ActionInformation Organisation,weapons,sensors and other tech. They get exposures to all cadres of their branch and can plan out on what long course they want to do a few years later.
The aim is to have a pool of reliable watchkeeping Lieutenants.
Once they get their Lt rank then they get posted to smaller ships for their first non-specialist appointments.
Basically, midshipmen get hit by everyone :-) and they learn a lot in the process.


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PostPosted: 30 May 2012 11:52 
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BRF Oldie

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Thanks Kapil.


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PostPosted: 30 May 2012 15:12 
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Compiled some information about INS Vikramaditya. No two sources have matching information about dimensions, armament and size of air wing. This is what seems more credible as of now. Please correct me if I'm wrong:

SPECIFICATIONS

Displacement :

38,000 tons standard
45,000-45,500 tons full load

Dimensions :


257.0 meters long waterline
283.1 meters long overall
32.7 meters waterline beam
53.0 meters flight deck width
9.5 meters draught standard
12.0 meters draught mean full load

Propulsion:

Diesel fueled 4 shaft geared steam turbines with 8 boilers, 140,000 hp

Speed:


32 knots (59 km/h)

Range:


22000 kilometers at 18 knots (33 km/h)

Armament
:

8 CADS-N-1 Kashtan CIWS guns

Radar:

Phased array and/or planar radar systems

Aircraft carried:


16-24 Mikoyan MiG-29K fighters, 4-16 Ka-28 ASW and Ka-31 AEW helicopters. ALH Dhruv may be used

Aircraft launching :

14.3 degree ski-jump, STOBAR (Short Take-Off But Arrested Recovery) with 3 arresting gear

Some photos at the link:
http://jjamwal.in/blog/2012/05/ins-vikr ... rrier.html


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PostPosted: 30 May 2012 18:42 
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BRFite -Trainee

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jamwal wrote:
Compiled some information about INS Vikramaditya. No two sources have matching information about dimensions, armament and size of air wing. This is what seems more credible as of now. Please correct me if I'm wrong:

SPECIFICATIONS

Displacement :

38,000 tons standard
45,000-45,500 tons full load

Dimensions :


257.0 meters long waterline
283.1 meters long overall
32.7 meters waterline beam
53.0 meters flight deck width
9.5 meters draught standard
12.0 meters draught mean full load

Propulsion:

Diesel fueled 4 shaft geared steam turbines with 8 boilers, 140,000 hp

Speed:


32 knots (59 km/h)

Range:


22000 kilometers at 18 knots (33 km/h)

Armament
:

8 CADS-N-1 Kashtan CIWS guns

Radar:

Phased array and/or planar radar systems

Aircraft carried:


16-24 Mikoyan MiG-29K fighters, 4-16 Ka-28 ASW and Ka-31 AEW helicopters. ALH Dhruv may be used

Aircraft launching :

14.3 degree ski-jump, STOBAR (Short Take-Off But Arrested Recovery) with 3 arresting gear

Some photos at the link:
http://jjamwal.in/blog/2012/05/ins-vikr ... rrier.html


Propulsion: 4 x engines rated at 45,000 hp (A total of 180 000 hp).
I think the Ski jump is 12.5 degrees


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PostPosted: 30 May 2012 19:57 
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BRFite

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jamwal wrote:
Armament[/b]:

8 CADS-N-1 Kashtan CIWS guns

...

http://jjamwal.in/blog/2012/05/ins-vikr ... rrier.html


I could not locate the Kashtan anywhere in the pictures ... so not likely there will be any - especially 8.

My guesstimate points to Barak-1 in rear port corner.


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PostPosted: 30 May 2012 21:42 
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BRF Oldie

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Location: Cave of the Saffron Bandits
i seem to recall that barak was mentioned in previous equipment lists. would be quite essential IMO


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 03:30 
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BRFite

Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
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Aditya G wrote:
jamwal wrote:
Armament[/b]:

8 CADS-N-1 Kashtan CIWS guns

...

http://jjamwal.in/blog/2012/05/ins-vikr ... rrier.html


I could not locate the Kashtan anywhere in the pictures ... so not likely there will be any - especially 8.

My guesstimate points to Barak-1 in rear port corner.


According to this article, Vikramaditya will not get its CIWS until 2017. So, no CADS-N-1 Kashtan CIWS guns likely (especially after seeing the new Teg-class not having the Kashtan but instead the AK-630).

INS Vikramaditya: Waiting for Gorshkov…
Quote:
...
An official Indian CAG report adds that even when inducted, Vikramaditya will have no aerial defenses until 2017 – whereupon it is scheduled to be retrofitted with only a last-ditch CIWS gun system.
...


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 08:29 
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BRF Oldie

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Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
my pov is 2xak630 in the superstructure, two in the tail corners and a box of barak1 (32) just behind the superstructure buried into the deck as it was in viraat or located in the right side extention of the deck outboard of the superstructure. a EO sensor is also likely to spot heat signatures of ASMs passively. barak1 might even be mounted on one of the steps of the superstructure to permit 360' fire .
a extensive suite of decoy launchers as well.

this is too valuable a ship to be penny pinching on self defence.


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 10:02 
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BRFite

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Maybe the plan is to use the Viraat's Barak on the Vic.

Even so, I think there is more then just money here... Even small Corvettes get a CIWS....

This could be to speed up the delivery and/or the result of the price negotiations that were done. Anyway, Barak can't be fitted in Russia and Ak-630 can be fitted in India.(Even manufactured). However, Khastan can't. It means the CIWS for Vik will be Ak630, and not Khastan.
I wonder where the original 6 Khastan systems of the Gorshkov will be used by Russia though.


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 10:06 
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Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
they might find a place in their new large DDG class which will replace the Udaloys (if they are still in working order)


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 11:21 
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BRFite

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koti wrote:
Maybe the plan is to use the Viraat's Barak on the Vic.

Even so, I think there is more then just money here... Even small Corvettes get a CIWS....

This could be to speed up the delivery and/or the result of the price negotiations that were done. Anyway, Barak can't be fitted in Russia and Ak-630 can be fitted in India.(Even manufactured). However, Khastan can't. It means the CIWS for Vik will be Ak630, and not Khastan.
I wonder where the original 6 Khastan systems of the Gorshkov will be used by Russia though.

Gorshkov never had Kashtan (or rather Kortik, Kashtan is for export).


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 12:44 
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BRFite

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^^True.
I made a mistake mixing Kuznetsov's CIWS with Gorky's.

Gorky used to have 8 Ak630 systems.


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 12:57 
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Original Vik's pictures are removed from Pilot's website. Indian delegation at Sevmash has complained.


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 13:00 
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Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
8 is typical russian overkill. if ASMs are close enough to need 8 CIWS, its game over.

the nimitz class used to have 4 phalanx + 24 ESSM for a ship 3 times the size and value, the newer ones deleted these and have just a few RAM and decoy launchers.


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 13:14 
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BRFite

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Location: GSLV launch pad sweeping team
Singha ji, I don't think it is about one ASM being too close but multiple ASMs coming from different directions. At 4 pairs, 8 seems great. Also, with the high rate of fire, ammo loaded in each one won't last long either, so spreading the work across the units is probably a good thing?


Last edited by PratikDas on 31 May 2012 13:24, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 13:19 
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BRF Oldie

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Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
more Ak630 is feasible. seems to have a much lower footprint than kashtan which is the size of a small house with a big room underneath loading the ammo and missiles.
the barak-1 being separate , the big stepped island should be able to shoehorn in 32 atleast, with another 16-32 buried into the deck nearby behind a blast shield or put into overhanging verandahs near the tail somewhere.

basic ak630 has 2000 rds per gun.

the ak630-m2 has 2x30mm guns and twice the ammo 4000 rds.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... k630m2.jpg


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 15:05 
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In pictures: Made in Gujarat,first hydrographic survey vessel ‘Makar’ handed over to the Indian Navy
Posting Inline image to show the boat. A bit of polish and it would look awesome. Nice interior pics in the link above!
Image

Quote:
Gujarat govt company Alcock Ashdown Limited today handed over a newly built Makar vessel to the India Navy.

Rs 109.89 crore catamaran hydrauligraphic survey vessel was for the first time operated today from Ghogha port of Saurashtra on maiden voyage to Mumbai.

Defense and Shipping ministries of central govt had given contract for construction of six vessels to Gujarat govt run company.

Makar is first of those six vessels.

500 tonne capacity vessel Makar is 53 meter long, 16 meter wide. It can work even in lower draft of 2.2 meter. 150 kw capacity computerized touch screen control pane, radar system, special system for emergency operation, electric control panel, AC plant, state-of-the-art survey equipments, powerful engine room, officers recreation area, VHF-VLF are some other features of this vessel.

After completion of its induction procedure at Mumbai dock yard, Makar will be known as INS Makar.

According to the release, the vessels will also be capable of limited coastal defence role in an emergency and will also have a limited search and rescue capability and limited ocean research capability.

The Indian Navy has chosen to induct a vessel with a catamaran hull form for the first time and will be one of the very few select navies in the world to operate such sophisticated platforms, the release said.


Last edited by K Mehta on 31 May 2012 15:17, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 15:09 
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Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
interesting - is the gyroscope mounted thing a compass kept around for traditional reasons? I wuz thinking compass can be offline and fed into a screen somewhere?


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 15:16 
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BRFite

Joined: 15 Jul 2008 07:25
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Aditya G wrote:

Aditya_G, I get an error saying «Sorry page does not exist from both the URLs. Can you please examine?


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 15:19 
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BRFite

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aditp wrote:
Aditya_G, I get an error saying «Sorry page does not exist from both the URLs. Can you please examine?

The answer is here
SNaik wrote:
Original Vik's pictures are removed from Pilot's website. Indian delegation at Sevmash has complained.


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 15:52 
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K Mehta wrote:
In pictures: Made in Gujarat,first hydrographic survey vessel ‘Makar’ handed over to the Indian Navy
Posting Inline image to show the boat. A bit of polish and it would look awesome. Nice interior pics in the link above!


Lovely boat. A beauty.


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 16:14 
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Excelent pics of INS Makar.This hull/vessel could even be the perfect solution to the requirement for the littoral ASW patrol/corvette,of which 16 are supposedly on order.Hydrographic vessels carry sophisticates sensors/sonars for mapping the oceans.The stern modified with a TAS/VDS and a helideck (no hangar),to also allow an ASW helo to operate from the platform,armed with light an heavy torpedoes and ASW mortars (similar to the Pauk class armamaent) ,could be the ideal solution.Havign a common huill ,just as the Pauk ASW corvettes and Tarantula missile corvettes do,would help in standardisation and easier mantenance.


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 16:42 
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BRFite

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K Mehta wrote:

Nice pics. A really beautiful ship.


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 21:10 
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BRFite

Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
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Superb

http://www.alcockshipyard.com/projects1.htm

Image

MAIN PARTICULARS

LENGTH OVERALL 53.15M.
LENGTH B.P. 45 M.
BREADTH (MOULDED) 16 M.
DRAUGHT (Max.) 4.50 M.
DEPTH ( MOULDED) 4.5 M.
DEAD WEIGHT 500 T.
SPEED 12 Knots.

Type of Vessel: Survey Vessel (Yard-257-262)
Owners : Indian Navy


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 21:32 
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catamarans are generally good for high speed straight line dashes, not usually great at hard manouevres (i could be wrong) - does that not make it problematic for a fighting vessel?


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 22:05 
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It is not a fighting platform Lalmohan sahab!


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 22:06 
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i know that, but
1. it is said to have light fighting capabilities (fine by me)
2. others are proposing it as the template for a fighting platform (which is what i am intrigued by)


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 22:12 
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Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
if the top speed is 12 knots, its meant as a survey vessel only and will need much more powerful engines and bigger fuel store for any combat role.


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 22:13 
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BRFite

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IIRC Top speed is around 18 knots and it is an all aluminum hull so it won't hold up well in a fire. It's range is pretty impressive 3,500 nm.


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 22:23 
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No, they have used this platform for higher stability and broad decks which is the hallmark of the SWATH design and ideal for hydrographics.

It is actually an interesting design. Looks like a hybrid of the SWATH and the classical catamaran design. The front part of the hull looks like SWATH for higher stability and the middle and back part of the hull follows a classical catamaran design for swallower draught.


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 22:24 
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^^^ indranilbabu, i am with you re comprehension of design concept


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PostPosted: 01 Jun 2012 02:09 
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BRFite -Trainee

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Guys have a look on this wiki page about German Navy research vessel.
INS Makar has similar design and concept. Her speed is 15 Knots

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_class_research_ship


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PostPosted: 01 Jun 2012 02:35 
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BRFite

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mayankdr wrote:
Guys have a look on this wiki page about German Navy research vessel.
INS Makar has similar design and concept. Her speed is 15 Knots

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_class_research_ship


Looks similar, except the German research vessel is seven times heavier (3,500 tonnes) in displacement than the Makar.


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PostPosted: 01 Jun 2012 03:38 
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TimesNow: US Eyes Bangladesh for basing USN 7th Fleet

Main points from what I could gather:
1. US Navy 7th Fleet will base at Bangladesh after end of Afghan war
2. The base being sought is Chittagong
3. The possible move was discussed in Hillary's recent visit. State Deptt has denied the story.

Added later:

Quote:
America’s threat to send its seventh fleet to stop liberation of Bangladesh in 1971 is a known fact. Now, 41 years later - it is America again - which wants to park its seventh fleet in the country - for its strategic interests. Worried by increasing presence of Chinese naval bases in the South China Sea - America now eyes a counter strategy - as it wants an overall presence in Asia - right from Japan to its Diego Garicia base in the Indian Ocean.

This by parking its seventh fleet in a base in Chittagong giving it both an eye on taking on China and a strategic post in Asia as it pulls out of Afghanisthan. The US State Department denying on the record that Hillary Clinton’s visits had anything to do with military co-operation.

Victoria Nuland: Please, in the back.
Question: Two questions.
Victoria Nuland: Yeah.
Question: The first one is about Bangladesh when Secretary Clinton was there. Can you confirm that she discussed the future of the seventh fleet with Bangladeshi officials? And does the State Department have a position on the future of the - home of the seventh fleet?
Victoria Nuland: That sounds like a question for the Pentagon. I will take it in terms of whether it came up in her consultations, but I don’t believe it did

Off the record, confirmation of key strategic meetings between Bangladesh and America and the recent visit of US Secretary of State Clinton. America’s concerns clearly documented in the Pentagon report as they increasingly worried over the string of pearls of Chinese bases across the South China Sea and their naval might spreading all across Asia - putting the America behind. The Bangladeshi Government remaining extremely tightlipped over the recent developments - as they have internally decided to deny it on record - fearing backlash from their own hardliners.

Reporter: Recently Hillary Clinton visited your country. She has demanded for stronger relations between Bangladesh and US. Are you exploring the options?
Ambassador: I don’t know what she has discussed and in any case this is not the fora to discuss political issues.
Reporter: US had asked to allow Chittagong port to be used as their naval base? Will you allow them?
Ambassador: I am not aware of any such requests to the best of my knowledge.

This move by America could put India on the back foot if the American fleet moves to Bangladesh, all of India’s security installations will come under the American scanner. Bangladesh is not willing to comment on record even offering explanation to deny the developments. This Clinton visit a more strategic one than just a friendly one- the Indian establishment caught unawares--as this base could cast a shadow on India’s own strategic interests.



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PostPosted: 01 Jun 2012 03:53 
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Quote:
The opposite portent, a highly improbable one, is that a Bangladesh-United States Strategic Partnership as a bipartite security understanding at some later stage may emerge on the same pattern of United States security linkage with Pakistan and all the attendant negative security connotations in its wake for India.

However, what is definitely intriguing is the American emphasis on Bangladesh’s role in the maritime security of the Bay of Bengal and the Indian Ocean. One would have thought that the United States under its Strategic Partnership understandings with India would have acceded that role to India as the dominant naval power in the region. What maritime role for Bangladesh in the Bay of Bengal is the United States envisaging?
Is India being made a fool in its own backyard


The biggest impact of any evolutionary Bangladesh-United States strategic partnership would be on China with which Bangladesh has a Strategic Partnership Agreement. In Bangladesh policy circles, despite a lack of geographical contiguity, China was viewed as a countervailing power to India as the outsized and predominant power in the region.

In Chinese strategic perceptions, the coupling of the United States-India Strategic Partnership with increasing security cooperation between Bangladesh and the United States is going to be perceived as hostile.

Bangladesh would have to indulge in some very tight balancing between its China policy and the new directions unfolding in its increasing strategic engagement with the United States. Concurrently, both the United and India would have to be wary as to how China responds.


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PostPosted: 01 Jun 2012 04:44 
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Why would India be bothered by this - IF it took place? China has been doing exactly the SAME things for years!!!!!

The new Chief of IA has stated very clearly that China is not an enemy.

Before India gets worked up over this development, India needs to make up her mind which way she is headed. Smaller nations in the look-East policy are growing weary of Indian soft spine. It happened with Singapore (the nuclear stand India took) and seems to be happening with V'nam now (with the oil exploration).

It is up to India to claim her own backyard.

There are enough Indian white papers and strategic thinkers who have made it rather clear that China is a problem.

Hope this development makes India take some serious action and not sit and gripe. The rest of the world moves on.


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PostPosted: 01 Jun 2012 04:59 
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NRao wrote:
Why would India be bothered by this - IF it took place?


Because big powers are bothered if another power places their 7th, 5th, 2nd or whatever fleet in their backyard. If Russia, China etc. were to park their fleet in Cuba, only US will be bothered no other small country around has a need to be bothered, unless these small nations pretend to be bothered to please the unkil.

Who else will be bothered? Myamar, Sri Lanka......... nope too small to bother.


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PostPosted: 01 Jun 2012 05:58 
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Any overt US presence in large scale on foreign soil is the proverbial "kiss of death" for that nation.Just look at the US's track record after WW2.Korea,Vietnam,Iran,Haiti,Panama,Somalia,Iraq,Afghanistan-(twice) and now Af-Pak.The devastation that resulted and the chaos left behind demonstrates the incompetence of the US in using its massive military power to achieve political ends.

What is frankly the need for the US to squat in a BDeshi port? The IOR is relatively free from tension,despite the huge US nuclear presence at Diego Garcia which India was strongly against during the Cold War.Today,it sees DG less as a potential launchpad against India since Indo-US relations have (neccessarily) improved considerably.But to have the US squatting in BDesh,as it once did in the Phillipines,in an Islamic nation with a large anti-US mindset,is a recipe for disaster.India-as a friend,should warn the US of the consequences.The security of the IOR should be left to the littoral powers.The US has a traditional role in the Pacific and should instead counter the Chinese there.One ridiciculous viewpoint by Maroof (of all people) on telly,who wa scomfortable with the US sh*tting on our doorstep ,was that the nomenclature of "S.China Sea",gave China the right to dominate it,completely forgetting that the entire region has been known for centuries as "Indo-China"! This being the case,the true name for the SC Sea should be the "Indo-China Sea" which I have been advocating for aeons.

The US squatting in BDesh will destroy that country which will be racked with internal strife .Such a move too will legitimise the Chinese presence in the IOR,which they are very sensitive to criticism that that is their plan,as it would legitimise India entering the Indo-China Sea and potentially basing itself in Vietnam.Our aim should be to engage very strongly with Burma to see that the Chinese bases there are shut down.China has used cheap military sales to Burma,Sri Lanka and BDesh to establish its military presence there.India should also provide mil. eqpt. to these nations aggressively,catering to their needs and thus neutralising the Chinese mil. mischief.Any unilateral US moves in the IOR without India's concurrence will be and must be viewed as a hostile act which should be strongly resisted.The USN is already in Singapore and is once again planning secretly with the Phillipines govt. to return to that country militarily.Its Pacific island bases also give it considerable military reach .


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