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PostPosted: 30 May 2012 00:04 
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so, if we can launch from hill and mountains, we could gain that much altitude to work against. wonder what would be the calculations in terms of range, say if we launched it from 10K or 15K ft level. [himalayan]


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PostPosted: 30 May 2012 05:11 
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ramana wrote:
Air borne launch platforms are considered unsafe and very risky. Think of the nightmare if one of them crashes for any reason.



The US was working on two competing designs of a nuclear powered bomber aircraft that could stay airborne for weeks. The problems were never ironed out and by that time some clever clog conceived of the nuclear sub and that caused the bottom to drop out of the nuclear powered aircraft plan.

This is an example of how technology can guide military choices and how the deterrent power moved from USAF to US Navy.


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PostPosted: 30 May 2012 05:22 
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srai, Thanks for the detailed description. The Akash warhead is pre-fragmented and not a unitary one. So cant use it for ground attack. But the DPICP looks interesting.

Was thinking of a desi 'predator' role.


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PostPosted: 30 May 2012 11:14 
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I believe the US never actually flew a nuclear powered a/c - how would they convert the heat -> turning the props or turbofans?
but they put a nuclear reactor inside a B-36 bomber and flew it around for a while.

those were the good old days when SAC used to keep squadrons of n-armed bombers on 24x7 in the air over alaska and canada to go bomb the soviets the moment POTUS made a call :rotfl:
now I dont think they even keep the n-armed version of the Boeing ALCM in the inventory. its just a bunch of legacy minuteman3 silos and 18 Ohio submarines.


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PostPosted: 30 May 2012 13:24 
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The Fractional Orbital Bombardment System (FOBS) was a Soviet ICBM program in the 1960s that after launch would go into a low Earth orbit and would then de-orbit for an attack. It had no range limit and the orbital flight path would not reveal the target location. This would allow a path to North America over the South Pole, hitting targets from the south, which is the opposite direction from which NORAD early warning systems are oriented.
The Outer Space Treaty banned nuclear weapons in Earth orbit. However, it did not ban systems that were capable of placing weapons in orbit, and the Soviet Union avoided violating the treaty by conducting tests of its FOBS system without live warheads.
The Soviets developed three missiles to employ FOBS, with only one entering service:
The orbital missile 8K69 (also known as R-36orb) was initially deployed in 1968, with the first regiment put on alert in 1969.
The Global Rocket 1, or GR-1, was cancelled due to engine problems.
The R-46 was not developed, and eventually scrapped.
The U.S. Defense Support Program early warning satellites, first launched in 1970, enabled the US to detect a FOBS launch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional ... ent_System

Quote:
R-36-O / SL-X-? FOBS
In the early 1960s, the Soviets needed a way to overcome the forward base advantage held by the west. The west had forward bases in Turkey, Europe, and Asia from which shorter range missiles and bombers could attack the USSR. Following the failure of placing missiles to Cuba, the Soviets turned to technology to overcome the lack of forward positioning. The Vostok launches had previously demonstrated that the Soviets possessed the technology necessary to orbit a space vehicle and then land it in a specific target. In this, there was an implicit assumption that nuclear weapons could be placed in orbit and returned to Earth at any time and place. Khrushchev made this suggestion in 1961, but in March 1962, as part of the rhetoric preceding the Cuban crisis, he made yet another, more ominous suggestion.

"We can launch missiles not only over the North Pole, but in the opposite direction, too. Global rockets can fly from the oceans or other directions where warning facilities cannot be installed. Given global missiles, the warning system in general has lost its importance. Global missiles cannot be spotted in time to prepare any measures against them."

This statement was the first hint of a new concept called the fractional orbit bombardment system (FOBS) that had been under development since 1961.

The orbital missile 8K69 was initially deployed on 19 November 1968, and the first regiment with the R-36 orbital missiles was put on alert on 25 August 1969. The missile was phased out in January 1983 in compliance with the SALT-2 treaty, which prohibited the deployment of FOBS systems.

The R-36O SS-9 variant 3 SCARP with a modified upper stage was equipped with an orbital nose cone, which contained an instrumentation section, a single-chambered liquid propellant retrorocket motor and a nuclear warhead. Western estimates were that the orbital missile carried a one- to three-megaton warhead. Once placed into low-Earth orbit, the ICBM possessed unlimited range and the ability to approach the US from any direction, avoiding US northern-looking detection radars. This type of approach would give little or no warning that a warhead was inbound. The reentry vehicle came down in less than one revolution, hence the "fractional" orbit.

Following the failure of their first two tests in 1966, the Soviets conducted nine launches between 25 January and 28 October 1967 following the same distinct flight profile. The missiles would be launched in the late afternoon into an elliptical, near-polar low-Earth orbit and de-orbiting over the Soviet landmass before one complete orbit. This profile allowed the Soviets to monitor the deorbit, reentry, and impact. US planners viewed FOBS as a pathfinder system intended to precede a conventional ICBM attack and take out key retaliatory forces. The FOBS would circumvent the existing US ballistic missile early warning radars and hit SAC airfields and missile silos before the bombers could take off or missiles launched. FOBS could have also conceivably destroyed ABM radars, disrupt US retaliatory capability, destroy command posts, the White House, and the command and control network. But, due to its limited accuracy and payload, FOBS was deemed ineffective against hardened targets.

The 1967 Outer Space Treaty basically allowed the Soviets to orbit everything but a nuclear warhead. The FOBS system allowed them the ability to deploy the weapons system minus the warheads without violating the treaty.

By 1968 the Soviets' FOBS program conducted two flights per year to indicate operational status. Although the Soviets deployed FOBS in 18 silos, political events in the U.S. prevented any serious examination of the system. At that time it was unclear to US intelligence whether the Soviets were developing FOBS, or ballistic missiles with depressed trajectories and deboost capabilities.



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PostPosted: 30 May 2012 16:00 
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Singha wrote:
I believe the US never actually flew a nuclear powered a/c - how would they convert the heat -> turning the props or turbofans? but they put a nuclear reactor inside a B-36 bomber and flew it around for a while.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_N ... Propulsion

Cheers....


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PostPosted: 30 May 2012 16:03 
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^^^^ This brings to mind an idea I've always had.....

At the start of the 'space age', there was the pressing imperative of the cold war.
This pretty quickly settled on the idea of putting nuclear weapons on missiles and lobbing them at the enemy.

Therefore, the technological development was focussed on missiles and their analogues, rockets.
This was effectively a 'duel-use' technology development program, attempting to 'kill two birds with one stone'.

However, purely as a matter of putting a delicate satellite in orbit, ground-launched rockets for orbiting satellites always seemed like a dumb approach, IMHO (as a complete amature in space systems). While I can see the appropriateness of such a system for weapons delivery, it never made sense to me as a means of putting satellites into orbit.

For starters, the ground-based rocket must punch-through the densest part of the atmosphere; requiring a lot of fuel and generating tremendous physical stresses on the satellite systems upon launch. I would argue, it makes much more sense to 'use' the atmosphere as much as possible....

This idea always conjured in my mind, images of large, jet-powered aircraft that would rise to the very height of their service ceiling, using aerodynamic lift to gain altitude, rather than trying to punch through the air with brute force and no aerodynamic lift, the way rockets do. Such an aircraft would thereby rise above the thickest part of the atmosphere, perhaps even fire a couple of underwing rocket motors to gain a bit more altitude; then pitch into a steep nosedive and miraculously expell an upward-pointing rocket out the back of the main body of the aircraft, with engines ignited a moment later.................!

Now it seems, the new generation of private space exploration companies have taken up a variation of this same idea, with some launching orbital vehicles that were first brought to high altitude by jet powered aircraft.

The idea suggested earlier in this thread, is simply the inverse of this one....

The cold war has lead us to use weapons-appropriate technologies for non-military purposes.
Will the smarter way forward lead us to use civilian-appropriate technologies for military purposes?
If it did, would this indeed amount to progress? (I would suggest, no.)

Should air-launched rockets be pursued? ABSOLUTELY YES, because the energy economics and technological advantages speak for themselves to anyone prepared to listen open-mindedly. IN FACT, IMHO, large-scale, air-launched rocket systems used to place PV satellites into geo-synchronous orbits so they can beam microwave-band energy back to earth, thereby providing clean, green, baseload electric power, 24x7... this is the best hope for humanity, if our continued existence on this planet is not to lead to its death.

For more information visit http://www.nss.org/settlement/ssp/

To those who do, and who want to discount the idea as being too expensive; consider that the idea of using air-launched rockets to orbit these satellites has not been factored-in, and should be; because this is very obviously the best way to drive-down satellite launch costs, IMHO (as an amature aerospace engineer with extensive experience using LEGO).

JMT.


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PostPosted: 30 May 2012 19:44 
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I see a viable option with the non-riskier air launched anti-sat weapon systems, as there is no nuke involved there. By doing the air launched anti-sats, we would establish a base line technology and critical data for taking a decision for the riskier venture.


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 12:02 
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Anybdy knows this company
http://www.microsemi.com/


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 12:07 
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Acharya wrote:
Anybdy knows this company
http://www.microsemi.com/


In what sense? They are a publicly listed fairly big Semi company, so yes, people know about them.


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 14:51 
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Chaiwallah to Paanwallah Alert

My chaiwallah informed me that the paanwallah who supplies paan to the engg working on a project informs that...

We can expect a couple more raakit loonches in near future including one nos cruze mijjile, development test of mbrl (dont know what further development on an accepted system!) and test of one nos of short sam.

As of now no further updates from him...but will ask him to put more ginger in tea to get better news.


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 19:28 
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it is time to engage kaamwali bais to get more information.


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 19:38 
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Quote:
development test of mbrl (dont know what further development on an accepted system!)

maybe Pinaka Wiki?


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 19:45 
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a prahaar test is long overdue


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PostPosted: 31 May 2012 19:49 
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nikhil_p wrote:
We can expect a couple more raakit loonches in near future including one nos cruze mijjile, development test of mbrl (dont know what further development on an accepted system!) and test of one nos of short sam.

A test of Nirbhay in a few days or weeks, not months, would be very timely for promoting bhaichara with Pakistan.


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PostPosted: 01 Jun 2012 15:59 
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Two more Akash Missiles test fired today. And both are successful. :)
Link


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PostPosted: 01 Jun 2012 16:09 
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koti wrote:
Two more Akash Missiles test fired today. And both are successful. :)


Great news!!! Glitches while testing missile systems are very common and people concerned don't really get hyper over them, as they can be corrected and only go on improving the system. Tests are done to validate the efficacy and rectify faults even post induction, but it is saddening to see these jokers comment on leading dailies about how misfortune has struck Akash if one test has failed. Its time they grow up!


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PostPosted: 01 Jun 2012 16:47 
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can someone point out akash differences in air force version vs. army one?


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PostPosted: 02 Jun 2012 09:27 
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^^^

http://www.akashsam.com/


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PostPosted: 02 Jun 2012 20:57 
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http://www.akashsam.com/launchers.htm
OK: it is all about launchers, for various modes.


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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2012 17:01 
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The Hindu report on the last Akash test
Two Akash missiles destroy targets


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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2012 20:55 
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^^^
Good article, but check the comments. Why are people so uninformed? It's like advertising your ignorance.


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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2012 21:00 
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we need to hear tests done against targets at intended design speeds. I am sure lakshya is not.

pehaps akash could target another approching missile.


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PostPosted: 04 Jun 2012 17:02 
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that was an excellent video of akash! good going. the impact direct head on it appears.

check it out off BR main.


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PostPosted: 05 Jun 2012 10:44 
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Looks like the Javelin sale to India is under the scanner.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2012/06/us-curbs-on-javelin-missile-sale-cloud.html


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PostPosted: 05 Jun 2012 10:47 
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What was the number of Javelins that the IA sought initially?


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PostPosted: 05 Jun 2012 11:14 
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The curb would be prevent India manufacturing large number of Javelin Missiles after getting the technology. The India would be to sell missiles + Technology and then to prevent India from using the said technology.


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PostPosted: 05 Jun 2012 11:50 
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TOT was never part of the deal nor was lic manuf it in India ....we wanted x amount of Javelin ATGM and now it has been slashed to half based on State Dept concerns.


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PostPosted: 05 Jun 2012 12:37 
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Austin wrote:
TOT was never part of the deal nor was lic manuf it in India ....we wanted x amount of Javelin ATGM and now it has been slashed to half based on State Dept concerns.

Yes.

Cross-posting from the LCA thread:
SaiK wrote:
I see how we can get motivated and perform: we now need some extreme tech denials for core engine tech.


The next job for the Nag team and RCI should to be to reduce all the electronics of the Nag, apart from the sensor, down to one chip to be manufactured in large scale.

The Nag missile supposedly already has a composite case, but this too might shed some weight with the latest tech from Agni V.


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PostPosted: 05 Jun 2012 12:59 
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US is very careful using +ve and -ve measures that indian armour, artillery and mobility is kept under 'control' and does not reach overwhelming levels wrt to TSP.
who else would have reached out and supplied 100s of 155mm SP guns ?


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PostPosted: 05 Jun 2012 13:03 
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PratikDas wrote:
Austin wrote:
TOT was never part of the deal nor was lic manuf it in India ....we wanted x amount of Javelin ATGM and now it has been slashed to half based on State Dept concerns.

Yes.

Cross-posting from the LCA thread:
SaiK wrote:
I see how we can get motivated and perform: we now need some extreme tech denials for core engine tech.


The next job for the Nag team and RCI should to be to reduce all the electronics of the Nag, apart from the sensor, down to one chip to be manufactured in large scale.

The Nag missile supposedly already has a composite case, but this too might shed some weight with the latest tech from Agni V.


I think Nag fuel if reduced can reduce the weight to around ~ 25KG to 28 KG with reduced range of around 2500 MM, only thing rather than being only top attack, it should also be able to go for direct line of fire.


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PostPosted: 05 Jun 2012 13:21 
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^^ Hillary and panetta are double faced individuals. They both hate India and sees India as a competitor. India should realise that no one in this world is your friend especially if you follow a different religion, race, colour, philosophy, way of life and have a different world view than others. The only way out of it is to make so emerge so strong that others follow your country. A classic example is Israel. Americans are empire builders of 20th and 21st century. Only Russia, china and India can stop them now of which India is at a strategic location and can help push democracy into china having failed using pacific. Chinese string of pearls is like peanuts. Us has created buffer of countries right from Europe to Japan and it seems only few countries remain out of its reach to strangle china. I.e. India, Iran, pakis to some extent, Myanmar, Laos etc. shanghai cooperation organisation was one such move to counter American strangle but it seems toothless on the outset.
India is just a small elephant in the Asian chess board game and will be given weapons that are fine for defence and some offensive capability.
To change this status quo, Government of India should sell the missile technology to the engineering giants like lnt, tata and other private companies on certain national security conditions that only Indian born scientists and engineers from this companies will work in these projects and help improve and create next generation of missiles which GoI can then evaluate in global tendors. If drdo is unable to create a javelin equivalent it is foolish to assume that other engineering companies will not.
To get best missiles and technology quickly we need private players in the field or at least create several competiting laboratories and private players just like other countries do.
It is funny to assume or fear that drdo will have more attrition than now if private players are in. There is no reason for this argument if government offers superior pension, housing, health, housing and decent salary compared to private players.


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PostPosted: 05 Jun 2012 17:35 
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Quote:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=18888 Javelin

In certain ways I look, this would be a good trigger to babooze, and would be hard pressing DRDO's own javelin rather seek technology and get denied. After being successful in many technology denial projects, I am sure Javelin would not be something that could be categorized on the lines of turbojet engines.

after all, that may be the end game plan as well.. deny the Indians, and check out their capabilities. I think I have done my share in requesting home-grown javelin shivlin.


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PostPosted: 05 Jun 2012 21:11 
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SriniY wrote:
Looks like the Javelin sale to India is under the scanner.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2012/06/us-curbs-on-javelin-missile-sale-cloud.html



"The best is the enemy of good" especially when its not available.

Dont know if the procurement guys are congenital idiots who always pick stuff that is subject to US sanctions or if they get instructions/requirements to do so?

Recall the LCA flight controls fiasco and so on. Learning from own mistakes is a sign of a evolving organization. Learning from others mistakes is even better.

But one that makes repeated mistakes is on a downward spiral.

If they had made know the preferrecne fo the Spike then the US would itself have made the Javelin more available. By getting into de-facto sole source situation (hits ten out of ten and fan boy reviews before the negotiators get their say) they have given the us a chance to dictate terms

A needless friction point was created.


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PostPosted: 06 Jun 2012 00:00 
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before we beat up our babus where was this department when 1000s of Amraams and harpoons and Tows were being sold to the Fizzle ya


When they need it they trot this dept out as if it is very independent - all BS


and to top it up there is an article which claims our policy makers drive the US crazy


Oh really!!!


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PostPosted: 06 Jun 2012 00:51 
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^^^^
I'd like to offer some (unconnected) thoughts regarding this recent issue with the US Javelins......

I'm not entirely surprised. Americans are known to do this kind of thing; whether as a contest of personalities, political parties, stupid policy, entrenched thinking in DoS or DoD, or whatever...... none of that matters. The result is the same.

Americans seek control over others. They really don't care about India's defense.

The Javelins are a peculiar system in that they can be used (cheaply) to asymetrically counter a much more expensive armoured threat. Being man-portable, they are inherently more "expeditionary" than are their intended targets, which means they have inherent offensive capability. This should have been obvious to everyone, right from the start, and I thought it was, as it should have been.

So, when the sale was announced, I felt like this was an American demonstration of their commitment to a secure India.
I had hopes (silly me!) that this was a part of a new India/US dispensation. Well, it wasn't.

Thank the IAF and Indian MoD that the MMRCA winner wasn't American!

&&&&&&

The other thought I'd like to share........ I don't believe for a moment that all of the military hardware the Americans have shipped into "AfPak" has truly been destined for Afghan operations. Believe you me, there is a back-room, under-the-table, hush-hush, totally-black arrangement to transfer American arms to the Pakistanis, as a "price of doing business". I cannot for one moment imagine the Pakistanis keeping mum on the side of the road as truckload after truckload of military wares rolls-by; without demanding or otherwise arranging that a truck goes astray here, falls-off the road there, has an "accident" or is "burned by the Taliban". Heck, since they control the port, they can divert containers and pallets like the Sopranos in Port Newark (the way the mafia steals, in bulk).

One of the questions that needs to be asked, is how many Javelins have been "lost" en route to deployment with US forces in Afghanistan? What else has gone a similar route? Where are these arms now? (Don't even try to tell me that there was no looting of those burned-out trucks. Nobody fights a guerilla war like that!)

JMGF (Just my gut feeling)

&&&&&&&

I strongly suggest that the IGMDP be re-started on a limited basis to produce the following:

==>> A man-portable system superior to the US Javelin, which we can expect is in the TSP's armoury;
==>> Designated ASAT systems (air-launched and ground launched);
==>> A micro-satellite launching system (to replace satellites destroyed during conflict, to re-establish basic military capabilities), and;
==>> A very small A2A missile meant to be fired backward from fighter aircraft engaged in close air combat (perhaps designed as a conformal pod attached to the topside of inventoried aircraft, and operated completely automatically to counter rearward threats, thereby drastically enlarging the 'kill envelope').


JMT


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PostPosted: 06 Jun 2012 01:15 
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^^^^ Apparently weapons are not sent through Pakistan...


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PostPosted: 06 Jun 2012 01:35 
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I am sure, condomistan must be happy in a sense, that they may see some hyphenation by some means now. Offensive weapon systems from unkill should not be considered at all!

I think, this is not about bashing babooze.. but it is all about energizing them in the game they are only aware of.. i.e., reactive approach to issues. they need baseline stories to begin projects.. a tech denial is a fantastic story line to begin with.

There are ton of babooze, who have no clue as to all these, what it means.


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PostPosted: 06 Jun 2012 04:35 
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Gurneesh wrote:
^^^^ Apparently weapons are not sent through Pakistan...

It was during the 2002-2009 period.


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PostPosted: 06 Jun 2012 05:39 
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Akash flew at 2.5 Mach and intercepted a target flying at 0.47 Mach.
What will they use to simulate a faster target?


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