Indian Naval Discussion

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jun 2012 21:25

the PA2/CVF per wiki is supposed to have a automated munitions storage and recovery system , remotely controlled from a central location that will deliver selected munitions to the hanger and deck through a system of lifts and trolleys not unlike a airport luggage handling system in principle. so the old days of manual selection, loading onto trolleys and hauling it to the planes are coming to an end.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Jun 2012 08:59

The IN has to be innovative.The cost of operating large carrier task forces requires surface escorts for ASW,AA DDGs and even subs.This is a collossal expenditure.Our geographical advantage must be out to maximum use.The Indian subcontinent thrusts into the IOR like a dagger right in the centre.Operating from land bases,LRMP aircraft like the TU-142s can fly to S.Africa and back without refuelling.These are golden assets and have almost the same speed as modern jet versions like the P-8s.With P-8Is also joining the LRMP fleet,the capabilities along with the IL-38s too will be significantly enhanced.However,we need more LRMP aircraft that can fly into the Indo-China Sea/Pacific waters from the Indian landmass,A&N and L&M islands and stay on station for a significant time before returning to base.

Supplementing the LRMP aircratf should be a large fleet of subs,both nuclear and non-nuclear AIP that will operate within and without the IOR,being the first line of surveillance and defence against an enemy force,attacking it before it can enter the IOR through the usual chokepoints.The cost-effectiveness of eahc type should be worked out carefully,both indigenously built and acquired from abroad like the Akula lease,cheaper than building a Scorpene! Our basic strategic priority is to sanitise the IOR from external enemy forces intruding into it and ensuring our energy supplies.Large carrier task forces are required if we have an expeditionary role requirement.However,they are required if the Gulf erupts and there is chaos in the Straits of Hormuz.Escorting our tankers will require a three-dimensional approach.

Thus while we dream of large carrier ambitions,let us never forget little Malta in WW2,an "unsinkable carrier",whose role was pivotal in harassing the Germans in N.Africa,aircraft stationed at Malta sinking many of their supply ships sailing from Italy and drastically affecting Rommel's logistic supply chain.This allowed Monty to eventually build up a superior equipped force and defeat him .Our lonrg range LRMP aircraft armed with a variety of weaponry and SU-30MKIs with refuelling can provide an outer screen that might suffice.However,if we also possess dedicated bombers (backfires,etc.),our capability would go up manifold times.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Jun 2012 09:10

no arguments on that. we need a strong fleet of LRMP armed with ASMs to dominate every shipping lane down to antarctica.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Jun 2012 13:12

IN sets eyes on Rafale

Indian aircraft carrier enters sea trials as navy eyes Rafale

Russia has commenced sea trials involving the Indian navy's refurbished aircraft carrier the INS Vikramaditya, as sources suggest the service could consider a future acquisition of the Dassault Rafale.

Originally built for Russia as the Admiral Gorshkov, with a maximum displacement of 43,500t, the refitted and modernised vessel left Severodvinsk in the north of the country on 8 June for open-sea trials, preceeding its delivery to India in December. Once operational, the Vikramaditya will be capable of carrying 30 to 34 aircraft, including RSK MiG-29K deck-based fighters.

Sources say the Indian navy is considering the carrier-capable Rafale M as a possible acquisition, with a potential cost benefit to come from the air force's pending deal for 126 of the type to meet its medium multi-role combat aircraft requirement.

Already operational with the French navy and similar in size to the MiG-29K, the Rafale M could potentially be operated from India's future ski-jump-equipped domestic aircraft carriers and offer a greater operational capability than current Russian aircraft and India's Aeronautical Development Agency Tejas naval fighter.

India's interest in new naval fighters stems partly from China's ongoing test work with the aircraft carrier Shi Lang, which will be capable of deploying locally-built versions of the Sukhoi Su-30.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Jun 2012 15:25

Rafale certainly a better bet than NLCA.It is readily available and even when (and if) the NLCA arrives certified,it will be vastly superior! The MIG-29Ks come at low cost and the Rafale's could be the high end of our naval strike aircraft.There could be a good synergy operating the two types of about 100+ aircraft aboard three carriers.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Jun 2012 15:34

the rafale-M was available and in service when the Mig29K was chosen. other than Russian pressure to buy Mig29K what other factors could have driven this decision? Does the 29K enjoy better T:W for ski jump takeoffs?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 13 Jun 2012 15:44

THe fact that IAF has chosen Rafale for commonality which was not available and Russians would not have sold Gorskhov without significant orders for Mig-29. Besides if Rafale is ordered it will probably used on IAC-1 also.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Jun 2012 17:28

and the sad part is Mig is dead barring a token order for Kuzzy, Rus has no carriers in construction and no foreign clients want it anymore.
I am doubtful about what kind of sales n support our Mig29s will get going fwd/

nits · Post by **nits** » 13 Jun 2012 17:33

I believe Rafael support Sky Jump Platform and upcoming IAC;s also operate aircraft on Sky-jump models... ? Please correct if i am wrong

John · Post by **John** » 13 Jun 2012 18:50

Rafale-M has never been advertised as being to perform adequately launching from a skijump however Eurofighter was touted as being capable of performing far better than Rafale (by BAE) from a skijump.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 13 Jun 2012 20:48

It would be a more reliable and perhaps even more potent platform than Mig-29K for sure.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Jun 2012 21:43

a better radar , meteor and EW for sure. plus ofcourse better range if it can take off and land with 3 drop tanks.

negi · Post by **negi** » 13 Jun 2012 22:06

Lot of us here like the Fulcrums but Phillip sir is just at another level .

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Jun 2012 22:54

Rafale would be able to take off from Ski Jump , they will have to reduce the payload or fuel or a combination of both , i dont know if it impacts the bring back load or they will have to dump some.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 13 Jun 2012 23:40

If the sortie calls for lots of air time, you fire away the first two for buddy refueling and launch 6 in succession and top up fuel once in air and repeat.

John · Post by **John** » 14 Jun 2012 00:16

Austin,
It should be able to take off from ski-jump but the question is can it perform most combat duties to my knowledge i don't ever recall Dassault even promoting Rafale in that role, unlike Boeing or BAE which i think raises doubts about how capable it will be.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 14 Jun 2012 00:57

I fully expect French to propose a deck landing/take-off as soon as Vikki is back in India (though the SBTF could be equally useful). And perhaps Dassault will send couple of Rafale-M coming over for displays during AI-13.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 14 Jun 2012 01:24

Mig-29k is inferior to Rafale-M in every respect but price. The purchase was the quid pro quo for getting the Gorshkov "free" that is pay for re-furbishing only. Now we have paid more for a 30 year old rust bucket than a newly built carrier in India would have cost. And we are saddled with a dead end Mig-29k. I can only imagine what our Russian comrades will charge us for spare (ugly) green wheels.

negi · Post by **negi** » 14 Jun 2012 01:33

When Vik deal was made Rafale M was not even in picture looks like we are bringing it up because Rafale made it through the MRCA tender. It's just that Vik is at least 5 years late already .

John · Post by **John** » 14 Jun 2012 01:40

Negi
Rafale-M was considered as far back as 2003. But Dassault never pushed Rafale and consensus among most was that when compared to EF, Rafale will be far inferior in skijump (launched from QE). There is no detailed analysis comparing it with 29k however.

India Picks Rafale-M over MiG-29K

(c) K.B. Sherman, 2003

The Indian Navy recently stated its preference for the French Rafale-M fighter over the MiG-29K for its new aircraft carrier, the ex-Admiral Gorshkov. Seven Rafales currently operate from the French carrier Charles de Gaulle. Originally, India had agreed to buy some of the Gorshkov’s existing complement of MiG-29K aircraft to equip the ship’s air wing. However, this deal has been bogged-down for over four years in bargaining over price and options.

The Indian Navy says it prefers the Rafale (Dassault Aviation of France) because it requires less reconfiguration than would be the case for the MiG-29K. India is likely to buy a first batch of eight Rafales.

The Rafale-M is a single-seat, twin-engine sea attack, air defense and air superiority aircraft. The Rafale-M entered service in 2001 and ten have been delivered. It is equipped with laser designation pods for laser guidance of air-to-ground missiles. It carries the Thales Spectra electronic warfare suite, incorporating a radar warner, DAL laser warning receiver, missile warning system, and jammers. The aircraft is also equipped with a Thales RBE-2 look- down, shoot-up radar and a Thales SAGEM OSF infrared search and track system. The Admiral Gorshkov is the last of four ships in its class, commissioned by the Russian Navy in 1987 and retired in 1994 after the USSR collapsed. India signed an agreement to acquire the carrier in 1998 and haggling over the price and features has been ongoing since. Defense News reports that India’s acquisition of the Gorshkov is scheduled to occur later this year.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Jun 2012 02:44

John wrote:consensus among most was that when compared to EF, Rafale will be far inferior in skijump (launched from QE).

Could you please point me in the direction of such discussions.

Rafale has better low speed, low altitude handling. EF has better acceleration. Would like to know the where the equation stands for a flight deck length takeoff.

member_23364 · Post by **member_23364** » 14 Jun 2012 03:51

The IN originally hoped to get the Vikramaditya for free (only the cost of refurbishment, estimated at $700 MM originally) and ordered 16 Mig 29K for $750MM. Since then, the cost of Vikram has risen to $2300 MM ($2.3 Billion). It is fair to say that if in 2004 (they year the original deal was signed for Vikram) India had contracted Russia for a NEW 45,000 Tonne Aircraft Carrier, we would NOT have paid more than $2000 MM ($2 Billion) AND we would have received it earlier than 2012. Last year, we have placed an additional order of 29 Mig 29K's at $1500 M ($1.5Billion). Point to note is we still have to buy armament for the MiG 29K's.

So we are out 750MM+2300MM+1500MM=$4500 MM ($4.5 Billion) and we are now trying to buy Rafale M because obviously, it is a superior aircraft than the MiG29K. And yes, we are getting a 25+ year old Aircraft Carrier.

The same $4.5 Billion would have bought a NEW 45,000 Tonne Aircraft Carrier ($2 Billion) and a complement of 35 Rafale M( $75M*35=$2.625B). The Rafale M entered French service in 2002, so it was available in 2004, when the Vikram deal was signed.

Reminds me of college, where to get the maximum bang for our buck, we would go on bike (30 mins) to a road side dhaba, instead of the "good" restaurant nearby. And go to the doctor the next day for loose motion/stomach upset/food poisoning. The total "bill" was double of eating at the "good" restaurant, not to mention the cost to body. My excuse-I was in college then, where instincts overruled sense.

Indian Navy planners-What is your excuse? And are you guys still going to college?

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 14 Jun 2012 04:42

Guru_Tat wrote: Reminds me of college, where to get the maximum bang for our buck, we would go on bike (30 mins) to a road side dhaba, instead of the "good" restaurant nearby. And go to the doctor the next day for loose motion/stomach upset/food poisoning. The total "bill" was double of eating at the "good" restaurant, not to mention the cost to body. My excuse-I was in college then, where instincts overruled sense.

Indian Navy planners-What is your excuse? And are you guys still going to college?

good one. I think there is more to the extra funds than meets the eye. Viky is part of a largish package, that includes tubular stuff being made in eastern coast of India or so I would like to believe.

For the next carrier, Cat launch is a must. Screw oiropeans and their paltry requirements, they can pinch on the money for CVF, but we can't afford to. A craft that is tossed into the air from our next IAC should be as full with fuel, as me after a rice meal at the local tea-shop.

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 14 Jun 2012 05:41

Guru_Tat wrote:And yes, we are getting a 25+ year old Aircraft Carrier.

Dont forget, its more like a cruiser than a real carrier. Below deck hangar is small for a ship of its size and its deck is also small (for its size) and sub-optimum for air ops.

Indian Navy planners-What is your excuse? And are you guys still going to college?

Well... at least a certain senior Navy gentleman had a lovely time with a Russian female...

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 14 Jun 2012 05:50

Some of the instrumentation pics I saw look 50 years old

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 14 Jun 2012 06:15

1) Ah!! the shiny car syndrome.

2) When the Gorshkov was being planned or even today, there was/is nothing available at remotely approximate capabilities and price. there were no two restaurants available nor any other dish available - it was the only game in town. In the land of blind, the one eyed is king.

John · Post by **John** » 14 Jun 2012 06:20

indranilroy wrote:Could you please point me in the direction of such discussions.

Rafale has better low speed, low altitude handling. EF has better acceleration. Would like to know the where the equation stands for a flight deck length takeoff.

This was eons ago back when there were discussions of modifying CVF with ski jump, taking off from ski jump it was comparison of T/W ratio with moderate fuel and payload, EF was easily superior to Rafale in that role.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jun 2012 07:00

people are oohing and aahing over the varyag which is of same vintage. but suddenly AG becomes a rust bucket.

I guess our photoshop skills to make it awe inspiring are lacking

saip · Post by **saip** » 14 Jun 2012 07:14

I always say when India offers Pakistan Hyderabad biryani they reject it and go for Chinese s** cooked in american p**. Looks like we caught that bug. But we are like that only!

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 14 Jun 2012 08:03

Inside Vikramaditya:

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jun 2012 08:15

imo in most ships the bridge and the CIC have the TFTA flat screen stuff. the rest of engg areas do have some screens but also a lot of dials, and rugged switches as in the above.
it would be more interesting to see the AG bridge and the CIC pix and compare to nimitz class in degree of ipod integration
http://gizmodo.com/5653563/inside-the-b ... ft-carrier

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 14 Jun 2012 08:31

GD, if the dials are more rugged and cheaper I'm all for them. It just seems like we paid Western prices for Eastern (Russian) quality. If somehow the extra money was quid pro quo for Arihant help, it's all good, But it just seems like the Russians have been screwing India lately.

negi · Post by **negi** » 14 Jun 2012 09:47

Ha ha the labels on those consoles seem to have been hand painted using a stencil and sponge dipped in err... shoe polish ?

But I am an analog guy those guages give it a retro look.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jun 2012 09:51

for comparison here is a control room inside a large iron ore carrier
http://www.ships-info.info/design/IS_Br ... e_room.jpg

a bit neater to be fair. and not as much exposed pipes and wires on the roof.

I am unable to find a pic online of DDG51 engineering rooms because I know people will always want that to compare with

I have a feeling those temp stencils and labels will be replaced in India with better permanent labels made at indian prices.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Jun 2012 10:39

I doubt they would have ripped out the entire machinary and controls of Gorshkov , they would have likely refurbished it like made it into zero hours or some guranteed hours it would work .

Most likely CIC and Wepons ,Sensors are key areas where they would have got in new stuff with new weapon controls , monitoring with big LCD screen etc.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 15 Jun 2012 09:37

Indian Navy in South China Sea: Beijing provides unwelcome escort

Just when external affairs minister S. M. Krishna was affirming in India’s right to ‘freedom of navigation’ in Washington, news reports from Shanghai say China is testing Delhi’s political will to exercise this right in the South China Sea.

Krishna’s affirmation was part of the India-U.S. Strategic dialogue this week in Washington. Meanwhile an Indian naval contingent, on an extended operational deployment in the South China Sea during the last two months, has called in at the Shanghai port on its way home.

According to reports from Shanghai, when the Indian naval squadron led by ‘INS Shivalik’ was on its way to South Korea from the Philippines, the People’s Liberation Army Navy provided an unwanted escort.

Although the Indian ships were in international waters, a Chinese frigate sent a message “welcoming” the contingent to the South China Sea and sailed along for the next 12 hours.

Last September, it might be recalled, a caller identifying himself as representing the Chinese navy told the Indian naval squadron sailing off the Vietnamese coast that it was in China’s territorial waters.

The unwelcome escort this year reflects the PLAN’s hardening attitude to India’s naval presence in South China Sea. Indian navy has been flying the flag in these waters since 2000.

The PLAN’s challenge to India was presented in a typical and exquisite Chinese style. In ‘welcoming’ and ‘escorting’ the Indian naval unit, the PLAN was showing India its velvet covered fist.

The message is this: “nice to see you here, but you are in our territorial waters and within them there is no right to ‘freedom of navigation’ for military vessels. You are here at our sufferance.”

In a well-calibrated escalation, Beijing is testing India’s rhetoric on ‘freedom of navigation’ and the political will in Delhi to defend its proclaimed rights in the South China Sea and sustain a forward naval presence in the Western Pacific.

Beijing’s challenge to India comes amidst the deepening conflict between China and its maritime neighbours—especially Vietnam and the Philippines—in the South China.

The Indian naval contingent had called on ports in both the Philippines and Vietnam in its current tour of the South China Sea.

The PLAN’s sparring with the Indian Navy comes at a moment when the tension between the United States and China are boiling over in East Asia’s waters.

India’s decision—apparently commercial—to end the drilling for oil in an offshore block in Vietnam’s waters might have sent the wrong signal to PLAN. Beijing might be betting that with a little more pressure, Delhi might scale down its strategic ambitions in the South China Sea.

To be sure, the Indian Navy has the potential—in partnership with other maritime powers—to our secure national interests in the South China Sea.

But no one is betting that the UPA government—which has reduced the Delhi Durbar to a shambles—has the political will to stand up to Chinese pressures.

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 15 Jun 2012 10:59

How about the escort so some things in the background like operating some instruments to collect some information of shivalik like radar signature, heat, noise parameters???

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Jun 2012 11:01

since the Shivalik visited Shanghai itself later, they had a ample chance to do that without providing a long distance escort.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 15 Jun 2012 16:48

Just made an line drawing of IAC with 16 mig 29ks on deck and without.
http://s1161.photobucket.com/albums/q507/sankum1972/

Unable to post the image direct. Can anyone please do it.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Jun 2012 17:00

the 2-3 on extreme left might not be possible due to safety concern from landing lane.

there is no reason to park all the a/c on the deck though.....10 on deck should be more than enough given we are not talking of 4 cats here. there will be time to bring up more in a emergency.