Bharat Rakshak

It's a different category, Maitri was supposed to be the Indigenous QRSAM for Army, seems like this project is scrapped.

Maitri was the new avatar of Trishul System.

No other go. It is always the army that has to get up close to the enemy. The Air Force and Navy inherently can operate at a distance by choice. The army has no such luxury.

Spyder also failed IA requirements?

Seems like create a requirement which can be only fulfilled by imports when we have Astra, LRSAM and Akash in our kitty.

This is a QRSAM and will replace the SA-8/SA-13 for Army Mobile AD unit ....... Akash on T-72 chassis is a MR-SAM will replace the SA-6.

ramana, we have grand total of two regiments of SA-6 and Akash in the long run is the replacement for these missiles as well new inductions in this segment. The above requirement is for replacement of OSA-AK missile/SA-8 Gecko in the IA inventory.

who could be the potential contenders for this deal. the spyder & VLmica not being in a mobile vehicle seems not be in running?

Well, can you apply your mind before posting drivel on the IA?

the three which would fit the 15km bill are Tungushka-M1, TOR-M2 and the CrotaleNG mk3
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/crotale/

the crotale likely has the better EO/radar kit - radar being a derivative of thales netherland SMART-S.
and its also quite the latest, having entered trials in 2008.

All fine, but what the hell do the DDMs mean by this?

The recent user trials weren't proof enough?

MBDA was keen (still is IMO) of a joint development of Trishul QRSAM called Maitri (with DRDL) to pitch for the above project. since this has not been given go ahead by the powers be, i am not sure.

MBDA To Race Indo-French SR-SAM In 2 Indian Competitions

Add on.

Guys whatever happened to the Spyder-ADS, has it been inducted, didn't we order like a huge nulber of these?

Why the heck should we order anything else, SPYDER-ADS with Python-5 is by far the most capable, plus it out ranges the requirements and comes with 8 missile clauncher if needed.

Spyder delivery seems to be going at the space of a particularly small and drunk spider. even livefist is a blank on it, if it exists its more secret than our N-program. perhaps the System as a whole was not ready upto the level in which it was finalized, discovered after the contract and israelis are slowly working to fix it and bring it up to par after taking a couple tranches of money. the usual scene with most imports.

the CVC has also got its claws on it probably.

if the IA wants a high mobile tracked system with integral EO/Radar then spyder does not fit the bill and neither does VL mica. both the SA8 and SA13 have all sensors on same vehicle and are hence self contained with no dependency other than reload vehicle.

for IAF/IA Spyder works fine for defence of fixed assets like airports, camps and supply dumps.

Pantsir-S1 seems to be pretty good as its available on Tracked Chassis and Wheeled Platform , Has a range of 20 Km and has Tunguska type Gun/Missile combination. Plus UAE , Syria and RuArmy operates it in service.

Considering IA is an operator of Tunguska , it would know better how the Gun/Missile combo works.

We already have Tunguska M-1 in our inventory.

Pantsir-S1 would be ideal for this role as well since it can fire on the move and has a smooth dual 30mm autocannon to ensure kills incase the enemy gets too close. For a QR-SAM Pantsir-S1 would be a better option than Tunguska, Cortal and even the spyder-ADs. The Sypder-AD would be great to handle threats over between 30 to 50km and together with Akash this should make the security net a very tight one.

Pantsir with it's missiles can engage targets upto 20 km away and carry 12 missiles while the others carry 8.

Pantsir is overall a better system which allows us to have dual redundancy in a single system. The auto cannon should ensure a smooth secondline of defence.

All the SP AD units are invariably part of (I) AD Brigades of Corps with offensive responsibilities.

the crotale NG mk3 should be seriously trialled even if we go for pantsyr in the end. the Pakis are very likely to buy some going fwd as they operate this system for a long time now.

The old Crotale Mk1 was it , seems to have performed well in Gulf War 1 brought down few allied aircraft is what i had read.

Nah Crotale mk-3 can easily trailled but in the competitive bidding, the Pantsir would easily emerge as the better and cheaper option, we can have more Pantsir for the same buck with indeed more firepower.

http://www.kbptula.ru/eng/zencom/panz.htm

Pantsir 57E6-E missile has a range upto 20 km and cieling of 10km while the crotale is around 15 km and 9 km. The Russian missile clearly has better specs. I would also put my money on the Pantsir being a far more rugged system as compared to the Crotale.

I think all of our major air, land, sea and other critical bases should have the Pantsir as last line of defence, 150 battalions of these would be ideal, each battalion with 5 launchers, thats 750 launchers or 9000 missiles, would be good enough to take on any incoming threat.

The Russian's will gladly give full-tot

Problem is Pantsyr is very expensive system IIRC some where around 20+ million per unit. Other back drawback is integration and support, Tunguska have run into many maintenance issues' where as Israel which has offered license production of Derby/Python and integration of Spyder with existing indigenous radar systems. Spyder even allows use of Astra in the near future.

the crotale has a healthy respect from our low flying pilots

crotale's in kahuta have been the elite turk janissaries around the sultan's palace since early 1980s.
though they have older crotale, mostly they will go for this newer model for sure soon.

Always wondered how Pak did not go for Chinese copy of S-300 clones the HQ-9 .. i am sure pindi must be having that on top of their wish list.

Singha the requirements for QRSAM require it to be "(e)Guidance. Suitable guidance system (with active and/orpassive seekers)." So all three are out of the picture. IIRC SLAMRAAM was on offer perhaps one of the contenders.

Austin,
Anything China supplies to Pakistan ends up in hands of unkil or any other nation for that matter (for example wiki leaks indicate Israel got it hands on very detailed specs on slew of chinese/korean Ballistic missiles), that will answer your question on Chinese hesitation on supplying more advanced weapons.

Many new technologies
developed indigenously
worked successfully in
Agni 5. The redundant
navigation systems,
very high accuracy ring
laser gyro-based inertial
navigation system (RINS),
and the most modern and
accurate micro navigation
system (MINS) ensured
that the missile reaches the target point within
few meters of accuracy. The high-speed onboard
computer and fault tolerant software along
with robust and reliable bus guided the missile
flawlessly.

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/nl/2012 ... 12_web.pdf

I have few questions

1.Has the time come for getting rid of AD guns leaving the job to missiles.
2.Looks like the Croatle has IR seeker with midcourse guidance ,Can we not do it with trishul which we was entirely dependent on RF guidance
3.why an Igla track mounted on a tracked wheel or a laser designated missile not better to this task ?

Question for the guru's, how is the French ASMA/ASMP-A air launched cruise missile different from Brahmos missile.

Wiki-aunty says the following about the french missile:

Length: 5.38 m
Missile Weight: 860 Kgs.
Dia: 300 mm or 0.3 m
Range: 80 to 300 Kms. (upto 500 Kms for ASMP-A)
Speed: mach 2 to mach 3.
Propulsion: Liquid Ramjet
Warhead: Nuclear 150 to 300 Kt. (For ASMP-A 300 Kt Thermonuclear)

The missile seems similar to Brahmos, though 1/4th the weight, half the diameter and 2/3rd the length. Yet has comparable speed and range.

Can the Brahmos also be used as a Tactical/Strategic (Short Range) nuclear missile?
How is it that the French missile in terms of dimensions and in terms of weight so much smaller then the Brahmos and yet packs an equally good punch?

The French have just tested the missile from Rafale. Given its weight and dimensions, a Su-30 MKI, would easily be able to carry upto three such missiles, packing an awesome punch.

ASMP is part of french nuke deterrence force as an warning shot and is not used for conventional strikes to avoid confusion. chances of them selling that weapon to anyone else is about zero.

I doubt it is supersonic for the whole duration of flight. like the klub missiles.

p.s. about weight and range, keep in mind that it is air launched and max range is obtained from hi-alt launch. the brahmos is a SSM.

What we should consider doing is make the air launched Nirbhay to be exclusively with nuclear payloads. The triad force against PRC would be more complete this way.

(I) AD Bde have AD Regt, Light AD Regt/Light AD (Composite) Regt. SP (both SP AD i.e. Schilka & SP Missile Grp i.e. SAMs) are not (I) AD Bde formation units, they are generally part of Div/Corps formation. SP Msl Grp command was considered to be at par with (I) AD Bde in terms of command seniority.

ASMP is supersonic thru flight but it doesn't have seeker, no terminal maneuvering, smaller warhead and air launched (smaller booster) hence it can achieve those speeds with smaller weight. Also the ramjet engine is little more advanced than one conceived for Brahmos/Oniks (which is based of ramjet engine used by Moskit), iirc the new ramjet engine for Oniks ran into a issues and had to resort to an existing design.

As per FAS, the new ASMP-A has terminal maneuvering. Also the French are also supposed to be working on a Naval Anti-Ship missile based on the ASMP-A missile. The warhead and the final guidance for the anti-ship missile would be different.

The ASMP-A missile is all supersonic, using Liquid fueled Ramjet engine. The specifications of the missile are really impressive.

The Brahmos air launched version is supposed to have a weight of about 2,500 Kgs against the surface and ship based variants weight of 3,000 Kgs. As opposed to this the ASMP-A has a weight of only 860 Kgs for the air launched version, with same speed and same or higher range. Also the diameter is only half that of Brahmos.
The warhead weight is not known, but a 300 Kt Thermo nuke cannot weight less then 100-200 Kgs.

How is the french missile so much smaller and lighter then the Brahmos and still packs a comparable punch?? Only a better/more efficient or a more advanced Ramjet engine alone cannot account for so much difference.

I beg to differ...apart from Missile Groups (SP), the AD Missile Regiments (SP) are part of (I) AD Brigades. 612 (I) Mech AD Brigade is such an example. As for being part of a Corps, well, the fact they are Independent Brigades, means that they report directly to Corps HQ or sometimes, Command HQ. And invariably, the SP AD Missile assets are with Strike Corps. I'm yet to come across TOE of an armored division or any other division with integral/organic AD Assets. They are always assigned from senior HQ - Corps HQ in most cases.

Inspite of your logical rebuttal it seems true! Another unnecessary import even though indigenous products are available

Mody,
Yes ASMP does have some terminal maneuvering but it doesn't have hi-lo flight like Brahmos, where the latter flies at low attitude for over 30 km and performs far more complicated terminal maneuver. The seeker and onboard computer Brahmos takes' up considerable volume and is much larger than other Ashm. Also keep in mind Yakhont was originally advertised has having max range of over 500 km (hi flight path?) but to MTCR that is not likely to happen with Brahmos.

As a newbie, any idea if fuel components of missiles - in particular defending missile(A-to-A, ones hitting ships etc) ones if it is any varied at all from any other - are made in India?

^ Yes, you can check various DRDO publications which mention fuels used in different missiles. Eg. One of JV SAM in development uses a fuel mixture which includes RDX as one of the component.

I guess some of your questions are answered. As for the rest...

1. ASMP/ASMP-A from the start is an air-launched missile. But Brahmos is ship based. So the approach to the design for the both will be different.
2. Brahmos is more rugged compared to ASMP. Brahmos is supposed to survive after the hit, penetrate and then to explode. ASMP being a nuclear tactical missile, don't have that kind of requirements.
3. In lo-lo-lo profile ASMP range is only 60 km, half that of Brahmos.
4. In case of Brahmos, missile is built around the engine, ie from air entry to outlet, like the jet fighter aircraft in 50s, so the missile appears bigger in diameter and length compared to ASMP. Whereas ASMP is built like modern fighters.
5. It should be noted that, certain operational criteria required the missile to be built in certain way. There is very less information on ASMP/ASMP-A. So hard to comment on its restriction compared to Brahmos. But, Brahmos I, II, III in Indian hands proved that it is capable of doing any type of mission.

From a Sister Forum by an Israeli Supposedly Working in IAI on Barak 8: