Bharat Rakshak

MoD actually did allow tech. transfer in lieu of offset work. If certain badly needed/domestically unavailable tech. can be obtained this would be far superior to the nonsense we are seeing above.

The nonsense we are seeing is because India is incapable of absorbing technology above a certain level. "Absorbing" tech means an entire new class of machinery and shop floors have to be set up with associated upgrades in materials, supplies etc. For a jump in tech one may need an unknown number of extra factories to supply the high tech raw material/component items for making that new "high tech" item.

For example if someone agreed to do "tech transfer" of an Electro optical device we would need the tech to absorb the detector/sensor and the electronics, maybe dedicated chips that do the job, the mounting of the stabilizers, the special lenses perhaps the special casing/transparent cover that houses the device, and special composites/alloys to make it strong and light.

So if we wanted to do this for say Rafale, we would not be able to set up all the associated infrastructure for 3-4 years even with assistance, and that would delay the project. So "offsets' will be something we can do now and today, like metal sheets, glove compartment boxes and toilet seats.

The idea that what India is currently manufacturing is a joke is because that is about how "advanced" we are. It is a joke but getting serious is not as easy as might be imagined.

CROSS POST:

Meanwhile, Gipps Aero (subsidiary of Mahindra Aerospace) successfully test flew the GA-10 for the first time this May 3rd. I do not remember clearly, if Mahindra is going to build the plane in India, but they plan to sell it here from 2014.

Mahindra’s GA 10 turbo-prop aircraft successfully completes first flight


Target performance specifications of the GA10 include:
Maximum Take-Off Weight (minimum), kg (lb)...................................2019 (4450)
Empty Weight (estimated), kg (lb) .....................................................998 (2200)

PERFORMANCE (at MTOW)
Stall Speed with Landing Flap (KEAS)................................................60
Typical Cruise Speed at 10,000ft (KTAS)...........................................150
Range at Typical Cruise Speed, km (nm) ...........................................1390 (750)
Take-off Field Length, m (ft)...............................................................550 (1800)
Maximum Rate of Climb, (fpm) ………………………………...1000

I know I would be taken to the dogs for saying this. But we often excuse HAL/NAL for non-delivery based on paucity of funds, manpower. But here is GippsAero, born in a hangar in 1970, which has sucessfully designed and produced Ga200, GA8 and now the GA-10. Here's what they have at their disposal


GA-18 will have its first flight in second half of 2013. Thereafter they plan to build a 50-70 seater!
link

And don't forget that Mahindra owns this company now.

HAL to invest Rs 600 cr in new fighter plane unit.

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd will invest Rs 600 crore in its new fighter plane facility in Bangalore.

The company signed an MoU with the State Government on Thursday during the Global Investors' Meet. The facility will come up on 40 acres of HAL land at Challaghatta, next to the old airport, the defence enterprise said.

The unit will licence-produce the fourth-generation fighters – the MMRCA or medium multi-role combat aircraft – for the Air Force. The Government is negotiating with the French aviation major Dassault for the purchase of the MMRCA .

HAL is creating two new divisions, one for aircraft assembly and testing and the other for engine assembly and testing.

Chairman, Mr R.K.Tyagi, said, “The new unit requires access to the runway. It is a time-bound programme to establish the infrastructure, production facilities and supply of the aircraft.”

The new facility is expected to potentially employ 1,200 people directly and another 3,600 by way of related services and outsourcing.

Excellent development:

L&T-Tata-HCL shortlisted in Rs 10k-cr defence deal race(with BEL)

This is the way to go. Deliver on time, or somebody else will take the cake. Simple as that.

And I am happy that the competition is with a public entity like BEL which has been consistently delivering on its promises. This is healthy competition!

P.S. My compliments to Ajai Shukla for a well written report.

DRDO budget was around 3500 crores in 2003, on the basis of nomina GDP in rupees, the present budget should be Rs. 15000 crores but it is only 10,500 crores as wasting money in something like CWG scam is more important.

Turning moment in India's defense production capabilities?

Stung by Tatra truck deal, government overhauls rules for suppliers

Mr. Natrajan's alleged treasonous attempts to line his pockets may be the best gift to India's defense industry ever!!

^^ onlee time will tell saar. it could simply mean that rules have been modified and strictly enforced so that nobody gets caught.

M&M in talks to acquire stake in Beechcraft.

India's biggest utility vehicles maker Mahindra & Mahindra Ltd is considering placing a bid for bankrupt aircraft maker Hawker Beechcraft Corporation, in an attempt to further strengthen its aerospace business.M&M, which had been looking to expand its aerospace business, could explore the possibilities of acquiring the American company, according to various media reports.

Beechcraft, which makes both civilian and military aircraft, and was acquired by investment firms Goldman Sachs and Onex Corp in a leveraged buyout in 2007 for $3.3 billion, had filed for bankruptcy under Chapter 11 on 3 May.

Mahindra Group, which formed its aerospace division in 2007, makes light aircraft, as well as parts for Boeing 737s, Gulfstream Aerospace Corp business jets and Lockheed Martin Corp's F-35 fighters.The reports quoted an M&M spokesperson as saying the company doesn't comment on speculation.

Earlier, Beechcraft made a disclosure stating it has received offers from more than 35 possible buyers and investors. The firm had also contacted 15 suitors based on strategic fit, financial capability and other considerations, according to an official filing in the US.

Beechcraft intends reduce the company's total funded debt of more than $2.5 billion. The company had also resorted to job cuts under an attempt to stay afloat.

time is running against drdo to save gtre... they have to come out with new funds and mission statement, with top level commitments.

Air India idle pilots get Rs 10 lakh per month while GTRE Director is offered Rs 1 lakh per month, how will we get the talent?

Must be very senior pilot of the rank of commander to get that kind of money

Their overseas allowance per month would easily be a couple of lakhs. Tax free.

And off course senior pilot of Air Incompetence is more important than Director GTRE

Senior pilots of any airlines will get paid well , Air India is no exception ....thats a different thing Air India is in deep loss but there are many reasons beyond pilot , I can probably count many jobs that would pay well than Director of GTRE , even moderately experience ITVITY guys get paid more than a lac, there is no relation between the two .....if you need better paying jobs then change your job.

Before spouting off, can you give the salary of equivalent positions in GE, PW, Snecma etc

Also you have got the wrong end of argument. I want to say that Govt should offer real world salaries for getting real world much needed scarce talent for GTRE

If you live in Somalia, then Somalia is real world
If you live in Pakistan, then Pakistan is real world.
If you live in India, then America is real world.

I personally don't think is money the factor that is keeping away talent from entering GTRE. If money can buy talent then likes of Pandas and Porkis would have bought their way to top in critical technologies. (Porkis would had and still today will make the aam paki eat ghas for the HnD value they will get if they can produce something hi-tech in the land of the pures and will put any sort of money behind it.)

But thats not true really is it? Most of the talent stays away from DRDO and GTRE is more because of Red-Tapism and an environment where creativity of a person is measured by the wear and tare of his desk. Currently the biggest problem with PSUs is the lack of that creative environment with exception of ISRO to a certain extent. Talent has to be nurtured, ready made talent can only take someone half way but you start somewhere and you nurture the talent to reach its pinnacle. To do that, its not just the money, the environment matters the most. To summarize it:

1.) GTRE needs money, not for paying supel-dupel salaries but to invest on infrastructure and the likes to create a highly creative, charged and experimentation oriented environment.

2.) GTRE needs to relook its process and beurocracy to nurture a practice where even an Intern can raise his voice in front of a group of super senior scientists and get away with the silliest of the ideas.

3.) Money can never be a true motivation for anything. The more money you give, the more money one wants. You are nurturing greed instead of nurturing creativity and the passion for knowledge.

P.S. Don't pay high salaries but spend lot of money to get all the lab equipment the team wants to do whatever they wanna do with it and encourage them to try a lot and keep on failing till they snatch success.

exactly my friend's in Defence PSUs are saying the same thing, they are frustrated with politics and redtapism and forced to leave and join PVT sector.

I believe, its time to adopt US strategy and start promoting PVT players.

Which pvt sector you are talking about? The one which till recently can't even a produce a scooter engine? With all the short comings and imperfections DRDO and GTRE guys have, they still delivered something which is completely unbelievable, especially when you consider the teeny-tiny peanuts they get for budget. PVT sector is not gonna do any miracles. Ask all these so called pvt players, and they won't bid for any projects without partnerships from TFTA MIC. I would expect people to be mature enough to stop beating the privatization bull.

I think privatizing the defence sector overall is a good thing. Imagine having an indian version of boeing, texas instruments, Lockheed martin,etc. They compete for contracts which increases the likelihood of a better quality product within a specified time frame. Don't deliver and you really feel the pinch. Of course, it will take some time and will probably need to be done in a phased manner to allow for infrastructure, personnel, and technology absorption.

The US MI complex is far fm perfect. We should in no way use it as a role model. Given our relative imaturity in the cutting edge techs that our MI is attempting and achieving (with flexible delivery windows) is the best that can be done at this stage, Import what cant be made at home, this is a part of evolving as the infrastructure evolves, and more money is available, private industries will come in as subcontractors (already happening as seen with LCA) Once our industry matures and our services have the confidence to order in volumes that are cost effective , that is when private players will step in, One more decade for that to happen. JV's with multinationals are the next stage for our private players hopefully they tool up (like our auto sector)
By that time a new more confidant generation will be in charge of our services.
Hopefully our political/babu system matures for the better by then too. This is very possible because getting worse than it already is will take hard work.

In 60+ years can you name one product GTRE has delivered? If the pvt sector hasn't delivered much it is simply a function of being pushed out of the market by an import loving politician/babu/armed forces nexus which gets its palms greased with every imported item. A country which imports assault rifles from Bulgaria and toy planes from Switzerland needs a revolutionary not evolutionary change in the way it does business. The fact that we are even debating this is a good indicator how far out of the mainstream India is. As for scooters don't worry about the pvt sector the GOI just infused more money into Scooters India Limited which has lost money for at least 30 years running. Luckily the GOI has successfully provided power, drinking water and sanitation to its citizens and can now afford to invest in other productive enterprises like making scooters, watches and running first class airlines like Air India.

Companies like Lockheed Martin have a history that goes back to wars fought by the USA at which time the companies took the initiative to produce hardware that the government was unable to produce. Simply giving work to the private sector would not be the same as having a private sector of innovator-investors. The Indian private sector suffers from the same lack of vision as the public sector. Apart from a powerful pacifist mentality among Indians in general.
http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company- ... n-history/


http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/100years.html


Which private Indian industrial house has been innovative like this?

Please pardon me for bringing in what might be considered unsavory topics here but I think if we are going to have an honest appraisal of India we need to be willing to set aside discomfort and cognitive dissonance and ask exactly what ails Indians in general.

A friend of mine - a knowledgeable stock market player once pointed out to me that trading communities of Marwaris would not invest in companies that made alcohol/spirits for consumption. Fabric/yarn/synthetics, whatever. You name it you find the wealthy business community dealing in them. But not booze. There have been cultural barriers in India that have stopped investment in morally unacceptable industries. Upto about 1900 or so weapons were all made by metal workers in workshops - a low grade low paying profession. Ancillaries for soldiers like leather saddles were done mainly by Muslims. The handling of dead animals was never encouraged by any of India's wealthy or educated communities. It would, in my view, be an insult to Lockheed Marin and other military greats to compare them with India.

Add to this the fact that the British kept the manufacture of explosives firmly under government control and I have posted a paper that showed how barely 10 % of India's explosives requirements were being met by Indian industry by 1947.

India has an incompetent dysfunctional arms manufacture history and it is still clearly visible. Neither the government, nor the private sector have capability. But only the government has bothered to sink in money. The private sector has put no money in the business and has never set targets and has therefore neither succeeded nor failed to reach targets. No point imagining non existent things about the Indian private sector. The Indian private sector is nowhere near greats like Lockheed Martin

shiv boss said

Agreed. The question is where do we go from here? How about for starters letting people who are good at what they do ( essentially 100% private foreign companies) have 49% ownership in JVs with private Indian companies. The joint ventures will be given contracts with manufacturing to progressively be done in India. Hopefully pvt Indian players can learn and innovate in the future. This of course may not happen. One thing is certain innovation from a GOI owned enterprise will not happen. India is the world's biggest arms importer. Hard to imagine things getting worse.

tejas you are talking like a businessman and I am sure you are 100 % correct. Where the model fails is in the actual creation of tech skills in India. All foreign governments stop the export of tech skills that will compromise their own national industrial leadership. For tech skills to develop in India private companies will have to set aside research money. If private companies have majority shareholders who belong to communities that do not want to sink research money into missiles and fighter engines, those Indian companies will fail to innovate. The Indian private sector shareholders have shown no interest in sinking money into research into core tech areas that really matter. Forget engines. Which private Indian company has tried to set up chip manufacture in India?

Indian private companies are a tight fisted bunch who look only for family profits. They are not interested in national security. They ask the government to provide the security for their profits.

There are many reason why Indian PVT sector never touched its true limits, till 1990, it was bounded by license permit raj.

just in 20 years after reforms, we can see many big players emerging. If govt will allow pvt companies in defence, it has potential to do wonders.

off course pvt sector will only primarily go to sector with maximum profit but their offshoots will be in RnD sector as well.

we can take example of any sector be it civil aviation, pharma etc. private sector has revolutionized it.

Medicines and clothing are "morally acceptable" for wealthy Indian shareholders. Not arms. You cannot run a company in India in which the shareholders do not want their money sunk into "killing others"

The GOI will have to underwrite R&D lets say to the tune of 80-90% just as in the West. Private companies everywhere are interested in only one thing: making money. Our goal should be to put that money into Indian pockets not foreign pockets as is done now. Money is going to go to private companies one way or another. The only question is will they be domestic or foreign. If we continue with our parasitic state undertakings (PSUs) the money will continue to flow out of India and supplies will be cut off when they are needed most.

All the big western companies today started nearly a century or more ago with private funding and private investment and governments stepped in only to save the technologies and keep the companies afloat in times of peace.

If we have to copy the western model we need Indian private companies with the competence and tech skills comparable to the west. This is zero among Indian private companies. Even DRDO is many decades ahead of Indian private sector. If Indian companies take DRDO tech and develop it it will still be better than the current standard of zero investment and zero military tech in Indian private sector.

In terms of defence tech Indian private sector follows the "000" model

0 investment
0 tech
0 capability

Tejas, won't you agree that apart from building scooters and running world class airlines like Air India, GOI also launches Rockets and builds Nuclear Reactors? Would you agree that ISRO and BARC are the pinnacle of Innovations in India? If I need to continue this debate we need to have an agreement that not all PSUs are inefficient and there are ones which stand apart. If you think ISRO and BARC is as inefficient as GTRE, then I don't have anything to say and I will desist from wasting any more cyber space.

Was any PVT sector involved in ISRO and BARC? Are they not PSUs? What is so different about them which DRDO and GTRE could not follow? Let me be very honest, I hardly support the inefficiency in the state machine, but that means that everything by default created by PSUs and people who are working in PSUs are worthless.

Added Later: With all its inefficiencies intact, GTRE did deliver a 80KN class engine, which is a considerable achievement where the so called PVT companies are still trying to come up with world class automobile engines.

Please reconsider your statement, you are taking away all the credit from the people behind ISRO and BARC.