Indian Naval Discussion

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 26 Jun 2012 09:44

Plan to operate two carriers any given time: navy chief - Firstpost

The Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC) is under construction at the public sector Cochin Shipyard in Kerala. The keel laying for the first IAC, christened INS Vikrant and to weigh about 45,000 tonnes, was done in February 2009 and it is likely to join the Indian Navy service by 2016, as per the revised construction schedule.

India also plans to build another, larger IAC that will weigh about 65,000 tonnes and is likely to be called INS Vishal.

Expressing pride in India’s progress along the road of indigenous shipbuilding, Admiral Verma said the Indian Navy had articulated a perspective plan for development of the force up to 2027, a plan that was “capability-based rather than threat-based”.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Jun 2012 09:49

first confirmation from reliable figure about size of IAC2.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jun 2012 10:27

The figure of 65K has been floating around for some time after Janes broke the story.

But looking around most navies prefer to build identical class of ships in few numbers to keep logistical common and simple ...i would expect IAC-2 to be idential in displacement to the first type when it gets approved ...but then who knows.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jun 2012 10:43

Indian Navy tests out new trump card

The heavy airborne cruiser Admiral Gorshkov, built in Nikolaev as part of Project 1143, was the fourth and last Kiev class ship. The story of this family of aircraft carrier ships began in the 1960s when, after Nikita Khrushchev’s resignation, the USSR resumed creating a large surface fleet.

These heavy aircraft cruisers have a complicated background. Their design was the result of many compromises between the Ministry of the Shipbuilding Industry, the military command, seamen and the Soviet political leadership. The fleet expected to get universal combat ships which were cheaper than the US Navy’s combat aircraft carriers. The air wing was to consist of Ka-25 anti-submarine helicopters, and Yak-36 (Yak-38) vertical take-off and landing aircraft.

Many specialists and naval history enthusiasts are still uncertain about their purpose: some consider them to be fighters; others low-flying attack aircrafts. Yet as fighters they were lagging behind their “classmates”, such as the British Harriers – not to mention the normal MiG-23s, Phantom, etc. Indeed, as low-flying attack aircraft they were at a disadvantage to virtually all then-contemporary winged combat craft of the world’s leading countries.

At the same time, due to the Yak-38’s unsatisfactory combat capabilities it was decided to strengthen the ship’s arsenal by equipping it with anti-ship missiles. The construction of the cruisers for Project 1143 began in July 1970, when the head ship Kyiv was laid down at the Black Sea shipyard in Nikolaev. The fourth ship of the project, Baku (the future Admiral Gorshkov), was laid down eight years later.

The collapse of the USSR ruined plans for modernizing the aircraft carrier, according to which she was to receive the latest Yak-141 vertical takeoff and landing airplanes (VTOL). In 1992, the Gorshkov was docked for repairs, and since then she has never been put into operation again. In February of 1994, two major accidents occurred on board the cruiser in succession: a fire, and a steam pipeline explosion. After that, putting the ship back into service was out of the question.

Talks about the ship’s possible sale to India began back in the late nineties. At that time, plans were discussed of her transformation into a classic aircraft carrier equipped for carrying 20-25 MiG-29 aircrafts. The contract for the sale of the aircraft carrier was inked in 2004. According to its terms, Russia was to supply the ship and a group of carrier-based fighters to India, and to train its crew for the sum of $1.5 billion. The Gorshkov carrier was renamed INS Vikramaditya in the Indian Navy service in honor of one of the country’s historic heroes. The architecture of the modernized Gorshkov is reminiscent of the Admiral Kuznetsov, albeit on a smaller scale.

Interest in the project grew stronger in the summer of 2007, when the default on contract was announced. Initially the ship was to be handed to India in 2008, but works were prolonged till 2010. A wrong assessment of the amount of work needed on a number of the ship’s onboard systems, and the undervalued price of her modernization were named as reasons for the failure.

In the Indian fleet, the Russian-made ship is to replace the Viraat aircraft carrier – the former British Hermes built in 1959, and bought by India in 1985. In 2010, the Viraat’s term of service had already reached 51 years. The Gorshkov was built in 1987. It is interesting, therefore, what fate awaits her in 2038?

It is impossible to answer this question, but it is clear that today the ship is a real trump card for the Indian Navy. The Gorshkov with MiG-29s on board provides the Indian Navy superiority over all its neighbors, including its eternal rival Pakistan. The possible capacities of Chinese ships are uncertain. First of all, there are doubts that the Chinese aviation industry is able to create a full-fledged deck fighter using the Soviet SU-33 bought in Ukraine as a prototype.

As a result, the only navy in the region significantly superior to the Indian Navy is the US Navy. At the same time, the United States desperately needs Indian support in a possible confrontation with China.It can only be guessed, then, upon which side India’s trump card will fall.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jun 2012 10:56

INS Teg joins Western Fleet - Tarmak

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 26 Jun 2012 13:40

Austin wrote:INS Teg joins Western Fleet - Tarmak

Any pics of the ceremony itself?

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 26 Jun 2012 19:20

The keel laying for the first IAC, christened INS Vikrant and to weigh about 45,000 tonnes

Isn't it inappropriate to name the ship as "Vikrant" when the original will remain 'in service' as a museum ship?

It just seems strange to have 2 vessels with the same name! Viraat may be more suitable.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 26 Jun 2012 23:01

IAC is INS Vikrant and older vikrant is IMS Vikrant

amit · Post by **amit** » 27 Jun 2012 05:51

Aditya G wrote:The keel laying for the first IAC, christened INS Vikrant and to weigh about 45,000 tonnes

Wasn't the IAC supposed to be 40,000 tonnes displacement? Did the Firstpost article get the number wrong or has the puppy swelled by 5,000 tonnes?

mayankdr · Post by **mayankdr** » 27 Jun 2012 06:18

Have anybody carefully seen pictures of INS Teg on Tarmak blog.

http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2012/06/i ... fleet.html

I feel both are two different ship.

Any comments??

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 27 Jun 2012 06:21

mayankdr wrote:Have anybody carefully seen pictures of INS Teg on Tarmak blog.

http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2012/06/i ... fleet.html

I feel both are two different ship.

Any comments??

They are different, the first one is Teg. Not sure about the second ship.

John · Post by **John** » 27 Jun 2012 06:42

Second ship is the JDS Mursame.

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 27 Jun 2012 07:22

what is the main difference between Shivalik class frigates vs Talwar class frigates ? (other than indigenous and size)

why we are still depending on US for Engines ? aren't TATA, M&M or L&T capable to build it locally ?

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 27 Jun 2012 07:47

kmc_chacko wrote:what is the main difference between Shivalik class frigates vs Talwar class frigates ? (other than indigenous and size)

why we are still depending on US for Engines ? aren't TATA, M&M or L&T capable to build it locally ?

Personally me thinks the Shivaliks trump the Talwar class out and out (this is strictly personal opinion onlee)

Differences between the two of the top of me head are:

- More capable sensor suite with the addition of the ELTA radar (s) on the rear mast and the barak 1 radar for CIWS control
- Better ECM/ESM support?
- Capapcity to support two medium sized helos vs 1
- CIC for Shivaliks looks very TFTA and more customised vs. the Talwars (although they may share some components here)
- Better CIWS with Barak 1 + Ak630 vs Kashtan or only AK 630
- SAM and SSM armament is the same with both utilising Shtil 1 with 24 missiles (?) and single arm launcher and although they use Klub vs brahmos i think the UVL can accomodate both as the Garpunbal should be able to guide both of these,
- Shivaliks design is generally more refined compared to Talwars
- More ergonomic design relative to Talwar (this is a guess)

Cons are primarily increased cost of Shivaliks and time taken to build vs the Talwars...

Hopefully Tsarkar, SNaik, John, Austin etall might have more input on this...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jun 2012 07:48

worldwide the onlee makers of marine power plants are likely GE, pielstick, mtu, rolls royce , wartsila, zorya and maybe a couple more american and japanese cos.
the GE LM2500 is the most widely deployed gas turbine plant on warships per wiki. I am sure we considered Zorya as well (in delhi class ships) and the opex of LM2500 is probably lower or it has some other advantages.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 27 Jun 2012 09:15

Different main gun - A-190(E) 100 mm versus OTO-Melara 76 mm.
Different propulsion - COGOG versus CODOG

Sree · Post by **Sree** » 27 Jun 2012 09:17

arijitkm wrote:
Austin wrote: .........

Sindhurakshak crew http://pics.livejournal.com/kuleshovoleg/pic/000s2e8w

Can any one identify the ranks of Submarine officers in the picture ?

^^^
The officer standing 2nd. from the left is Commander and in the middle the officer standing is the Captain .

Late to this, but fwiw: We can only see the rank insignia on the sleeves of the two that arijitkm has id'd, but I would guess all are Commanders or Captains, going by the braid that's (just about) visible on their cap peaks. Afaict, all have a single row of braid, which would mean Commander or Captain - officers below Commander don't have any braid on their caps; officers above Captain have two rows.

As the officer on the extreme left is wearing aiguilettes (the cords around his shoulder), and is wearing them on his left, he is either on the Naval Attache's staff at the embassy, or an ADC to someone other than the President or a Governor. (ADCs to the President and Governors wear aiguilettes on the right shoulder).

For uniform and protocol trivia enthusiasts, if no-one else! Rgds

dipak · Post by **dipak** » 27 Jun 2012 15:52

Sree wrote:
Late to this, but fwiw: We can only see the rank insignia on the sleeves of the two that arijitkm has id'd, but I would guess all are Commanders or Captains, going by the braid that's (just about) visible on their cap peaks. Afaict, all have a single row of braid, which would mean Commander or Captain - officers below Commander don't have any braid on their caps; officers above Captain have two rows.

As the officer on the extreme left is wearing aiguilettes (the cords around his shoulder), and is wearing them on his left, he is either on the Naval Attache's staff at the embassy, or an ADC to someone other than the President or a Governor. (ADCs to the President and Governors wear aiguilettes on the right shoulder).

For uniform and protocol trivia enthusiasts, if no-one else! Rgds

Absolutely on dot, sir!

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 27 Jun 2012 18:16

Singha wrote:this also means the P75I cannot be a heavily modified or greenfield design made to our specs....much longer timeline.

I would say grab bull by horns and go with the Soryu. get the 1st two made in japan and in meantime have them setup production facility here. japan stuff is very costly because they dont export and hence dont gain economy of scale. we can present that opportunity. their corporate sector would surely not mind trumping the koreans for once! their govt needs to get pragmatic though.

L&T and Mitsubishi have Agreement for transfer of technology at Katupalli. I think it's Mitsubishi which makes the Soryu's. The Supply chain is already existing, only the Stupid Government has to take action.

John · Post by **John** » 27 Jun 2012 20:02

andy B wrote:Personally me thinks the Shivaliks trump the Talwar class out and out (this is strictly personal opinion onlee)

Apart from what you said would like to add the Talwar's 100 mm gun coupled with 5p10 radar is quite potent compared to just a Oto SR in Shivalik and Shivalik does have advantage of 2 RPK-8 systems vs just 1 in Talwar.
However Talwar's biggest advantage is its cost around 400 million where as Shivalik came out to over 650 million and the much shorter construction time.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 27 Jun 2012 20:50

Vikkie in Severomorsk Naval Base

arijitkm · Post by **arijitkm** » 28 Jun 2012 00:10

Sree wrote:

Late to this, but fwiw: We can only see the rank insignia on the sleeves of the two that arijitkm has id'd, but I would guess all are Commanders or Captains, going by the braid that's (just about) visible on their cap peaks. Afaict, all have a single row of braid, which would mean Commander or Captain - officers below Commander don't have any braid on their caps; officers above Captain have two rows.

As the officer on the extreme left is wearing aiguilettes (the cords around his shoulder), and is wearing them on his left, he is either on the Naval Attache's staff at the embassy, or an ADC to someone other than the President or a Governor. (ADCs to the President and Governors wear aiguilettes on the right shoulder).

For uniform and protocol trivia enthusiasts, if no-one else! Rgds

oh ! excellent. I missed that .

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 28 Jun 2012 04:42

Vikramaditya trial pics

link

amit · Post by **amit** » 28 Jun 2012 07:14

Kartik wrote:Vikramaditya trial pics

link

Is it just me or does everybody notice a lot of rust, especially topside?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 28 Jun 2012 07:19

it is expected as gorshkov was a rust bucket earlier

)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Jun 2012 07:34

if you mean the deck surface, I dont think they have painted the final coatings there yet...will be done before air ops testing starts, some kind of thermal barrier to ensure no engine heat affects the steel.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 28 Jun 2012 07:57

amit wrote:
Kartik wrote:Vikramaditya trial pics

link
Is it just me or does everybody notice a lot of rust, especially topside?

Boss, that pic is also looking through a hue of diesel smoke being released which is adding to the effect. We need to be careful (and this statement is not aimed at you but generally to BRF abduls) on constantly going for the TFTA look and criticising anything that doesnt look true through the TFTA spectrum. Aslo as GD clearly mentioned Vikky is going through a comprehensive testing phase let us wait till it gets delivered. Also I suggest we check how TFTA i.e non rusty Khan carriers look (I checked and they didnt look all too different from Vikky's surface IMVHO)

P.S I can bet 10 paisa that Sooooorya is gonna have a nice little anurism with judging the rusty look again on the deck

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 28 Jun 2012 12:12

Indian Navy to select Wake Homing Torpedo

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Jun 2012 12:47

Hypersonic Brahmos Missile to be Ready by 2017

“I think we will need about five years to develop the first fully-functional prototype [of the hypersonic missile],” Pillai said at an engineering technology forum near Moscow.

“We have already carried out a series of lab tests [of the missile] at the speed of 6.5 Mach,” he said.

Pillai said that the new missile will be made in three variants – ground-launched, airborne, and sea-launched.

The official said the new missiles will be supplied only to India and Russia, without exports to third countries.

This should be the most revolutionary weapons when it comes by 2017 , Brahmos supersonic generates 9 times KE , Hypersonic Brahmos at almost twice that speed will be 16-18 times KE.

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 28 Jun 2012 13:38

Regarding the Shivalik vs Talwar debate, was reading an article in Stratpost, had some good snippets:

http://www.stratpost.com/ins-shivalik-s ... multiplier

But Captain MD Suresh, captain of the Shivalik thinks a warship this size couldn’t get any stealthier. “It’s one generation ahead of the Talwar class,” he says after the commissioning of the warship, which took place last Thursday, also pointing out that it requires the same size of crew as the Talwar-class frigates, which displace 4,900 tons. His crew of 225 sailors and 25 officers have already done 23 sorties at sea as of the date of commissioning.

According to Captain Suresh, an IAF AWACS can share data with the Shivalik, allowing it to conduct conduct mandated operations in its area of deployment. This potential, once fully developed, could yield huge dividends in terms of operational flexibility, especially once, more of these and the follow-on Project 17A frigates, start flying the Indian ensign.

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 28 Jun 2012 15:57

Is that a Sub?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 28 Jun 2012 16:01

Are those subs ?????

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 28 Jun 2012 16:04

Yes those are subs of Typhoon class.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhoon_class_submarine

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 28 Jun 2012 17:43

Ivanev wrote:Yes those are subs of Typhoon class.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhoon_class_submarine

I did thought they were Typhoons but at another glance they did not look like Subs.

Raman · Post by **Raman** » 28 Jun 2012 19:34

Have these pics been posted? From Livefist

Last picture shows her operating "курить сигнал" datalink.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 28 Jun 2012 19:45

Ivanev wrote:Regarding the Shivalik vs Talwar debate, was reading an article in Stratpost, had some good snippets:

http://www.stratpost.com/ins-shivalik-s ... multiplier

He was impressed at the Shivalik’s stability during trials held in rough seas under monsoon clouds.

Reconfirms what tsarkar mentioned about our naval design

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 28 Jun 2012 19:48

Kartik wrote:Vikramaditya trial pics

link

Given the amount of dope we are getting on big vik I suggest we should keep a separate thread for it (and IAC)

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 28 Jun 2012 22:41

From the stratpost article

The admiral also says Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has now contracted with General Electric to build the LM 2500 diesel engines in India.

This is a welcome development if it fructifies. The LM 2500 is a gas turbine though. Not a diesel engine.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 29 Jun 2012 04:56

Aviation trials of INS Vikramaditya to start in July.

Russia will deploy a MIG-35 and other aircraft to check out the aviation facilities of INS Vikramaditya, the Russian aircraft carrier which is set to join the Indian Navy by the year end.

The 'aviation facilities complex trials' of the aircraft carrier will begin sometime in the middle of July in the Barents Sea, Navy sources said. A team of about 20 Navy aviation personnel including pilots are on their way to Russia to observe the trials, which will be carried out by a Russian crew.

The complex sea trials of the aircraft carrier, which started on June 7, comprise primarily of two aspects -- the ship trials and the aviation facilities complex trials. The ship trials have already started. Over 500 Indian Navy personnel under the command of Captain Suraj Berry, the commissioning commanding officer of the carrier, are present on board the aircraft carrier observing the trials. By the time India takes command of the ship, there will be around 2,000 personnel to run Indian Navy's biggest ship, with a displacement of 45,000 tonnes.

Besides the MIG-35, Russia will deploy a MIG-29K fighter and helicopters for the aviation trials which will check out facilities such as landing, deck lighting, arrestor and restraining gears etc. The aviation facilities complex trials are expected to last over three months.

Officials said the ship was moved to Barents Sea as it doesn't freeze in winter because of warm currents. The ship is expected to remain there for the extensive trials until deep into winter, when handing over to the Indian Navy is expected.

After a delay of over four years, when INS Vikramaditya finally joins the Indian Navy it will be the biggest ship with the Indian military, besides significantly enhancing its blue water capabilities.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 29 Jun 2012 06:15

Vipul wrote:Aviation trials of INS Vikramaditya to start in July.

Russia will deploy a MIG-35 and other aircraft to check out the aviation facilities of INS Vikramaditya, the Russian aircraft carrier which is set to join the Indian Navy by the year end.
<snip>

Is 'nt this the plane which competed in MRCA tender.
what is this doing here. IN wants Mig 29K.