Bharat Rakshak

^^^ Likely some kid from israel wrote that stuff

Brahmos can pull off many sets of terminal maneuvers, it can cruise up high and down low, Brahmos's range is capped at 300km in a HI-LO config, in reality it can easily fly 500 km in a HI-HI config and steep dive down on it's target from high altitude.

The range mentioned in almost all Indian missiles is usually the minimum range. All our missiles have ranges higher than those mentioned in media.

its either a genuine guy(college fresher not a key senior player) or "Denil" is back on the grid.

the details looks realistic enough.

Where's the link,plz post.

Accuracy is consistent with other Strategic missiles. I said in the same thread years back, if we achieve similar accuracy even for long range missile in the league of ICBM, we are indeed arrived as Missile power. Today this is official.

More efforts are needed to get recognized as prime power, I guess we are approaching that hall mark.

Is it not Aster too do that?

Is there any other sector where missiles completely replaced guns? Fighter aircraft still retain guns nor naval crafts removed their gun mounts.

For artillery bombardment or engaging smaller vessels naval gun mounts are still useful . But USN is phasing out phalanx in favor of RAM and there is very few new AAA only tracked or wheeled systems procured these days (even china and russia have been moving towards gun/missile based systems). But AAA guns have been converted into quite capable infantry fighting vehicles (as we saw during the Libyan conflict), which raises a question why not develop artillery/AAA system like Otomatic?

Well here is the Link

Actually, there is a very good reason never to give up on guns for AD -- once a gun is fired, the projectile is virtually impervious to ECM -- unlike any guided missile fired in an AD engagement. Susceptibility ECM is the major inherent weakness with guided missiles.

Moreover, before anyone considers giving up on AD guns, I think they should know what they're turning their backs on...


Keep in mind, the system depicted in the above video has been on the market for 10-12 years already, and there have certainly been improvements in RADAR and optical fire control technologies since this video was produced.

The video below is from a recent news report on Israeli TV...

The fact that Israel is considering full-scale deployment of this system should tell you that it's worthy of consideration by anyone interested in AD.

What makes this system special is the "AHEAD 35mm" air defense ammunition, explained in the latter half of the first video.

When India selected the Rafale for the MMRCA, I was delighted, in part because the canon on board is a 30mm gun; and it should be possible to make "AHEAD 30mm" ammunition to pair with an upgraded gun for an upgraded Rafale (when such a system is qualified for deployment on fighter aircraft, and you know someone is working on it, or they should be).

Such a gun, with such ammo as this AHEAD stuff, paired to the flight controls on the Rafale, would make the Rafale a *SUPER STAR* cruise missile killer, if it were kitted-out just for this purpose (without too much heavy ordinance on board, but lots and lots of AHEAD ammo).

In my LEGO-inspired imagination, there would be a few of these special 'cruise missile killer configuration' Rafales kept at the ready in the Western sector (where the cruise missile threat is greatest). These special planes should have 'hooks' for a catapult launch, but none of the heavy landing gear needed for a carrier landing, since they could land on a regular runway. In times of heightened tensions, the IAF could keep pilots in the cockpits around the clock, and if an attack was detected, it would be a matter of closing the canopy, charging the catapult and launching -- no quicker response!

[I'm gonna put my LEGO away now, and get back to work. ]

I believe Rheinmetall was blacklisted by the MoD and will have to live off the scraps they make in the 40+ other countries in which they do business. Do not worry we have OFB on our side they will surely prepare us for all contingencies.

Yes Skyshield is unlikely but if IIRC there was some interest in the Greek Artemis system.

Link Translated from Greek

I am not familiar with the formation units of Mech (I) AD Bde so I am happy to be updated. If I can confirm this info, then I will drop a line here to indicate. But (I) AD Bde have AD Regt, Light AD Regt or Light AD (Comp) Regt only. I do not have any open source reference at hand on this to share and I realise it might be difficult for you too, but in case you have any that show SP AD/SP Msl Grp as part of (I) AD Bde then please do share.

On SP AD being part of Armd Div, I am very sure that I have seen their eqpt sporting the Armd Div's div sign but I can't for the life of me remember the details though I do know they were part of one of the original Strike Corps. I will like to point out my info could be dated, so it could have changed now.

OT , but precisely the reason why the US is turning towards all aspect stealth for its missile programs as well .You can not hit what you cant see.

on the army QR-SAM front,

MBDA is expected to field Maitri proposal though no actual work done yet
the Crotale mk3 is not being mentioned
Tor M1 is there
MIM-40 hawk is mentioned but obsolete and phased out...
SLAMRAAM is mentioned - but its cancelled - http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htada/20110111.aspx
Pantsyr is there
VL mica is not mentioned
Spyder is mentioned perhaps in a mobile incarnation

Tor-M1 is an old 80's system and not even in production , it would be Tor-M2E thats in production now

Specs http://www.kupol.ru/en/ams/tor-m2e
video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJmpMCSI1qU

As I said earlier, SP MSL Groups are directly under the Corps and not part of any brigades. On the SP AD being part of Armored Division(s), I stand corrected. Here is a pic of Tungushka systems in RD Parade with formation sign of 31 Armd Division. (http://pib.nic.in/photo/2006/Jan/l200601267174.jpg

The Skyshield (as one example) is not solely RADAR controlled. Stealth only works for RADAR detection.

The Skyshield also has optical and IR detection capabilities, as depicted in the youtubed videos above. This means, if it's got a motor or engine of any kind, it's giving-off heat that the Skyshield can detect, target and destroy. Presumably, the temperature differential between the sky and even an unpowered, yet fast-moving object, should be sufficient to detect. RAM serves no purpose against IR detection.

However, consider; de-orbiting objects and hypersonic missiles will be detectable because of the heat of friction from flying through the air; YET unpowered bombs coated with RAM, dropped (from a stand-off distance) on a moonless night, particularly if during winter/cold........ That might be the weakness of the Skyshield depicted above.

As for optical detection: If it's flying through the sky, then it's flying against the sky as background. Combine a fancy telescope with an enormous number of 'megapixels' of video capture, mated to a fast computer; and this is simply a question of the computer identifying pixels that change colour/intensity/hue, and plotting that information as a 3D trajectory. All the RAM in the world, isn't going to defeat this.

By now, I am sure some smart cracker has added a LASER illuminator that can scan even pitch-black skies for soot-black objects. So, even unpowered bombs coated with RAM, dropped (from a stand-off distance) on a moonless night during the dead of winter......... Somebody has that box checked-off already, I'm sure.

[Honestly, the evolution of these competing technologies is fascinating, and more than a little depressing at the same time . Just think about what else (better, more useful) could have been discovered, engineered and constructed/provided; using the same material, financial and intellectual resources. No matter if you're a 'hawk' or a 'dove'; you've gotta admit, sowing the seeds of destruction leads to a bitter harvest, and this is not sustainable.]

Yep ., that being the point.The beginning and end.Threats and solutions continually evolve, a basic law of nature.Some 'bright' chap some where will always try to be ahead in the curve.

I am glad that I was not going cuckoo that SP AD is part of Armd Div, however your find of Tungushka with 31 Armd Div for RD 2006 is intriguing. I want to believe that Tungushka will be part of SP Msl Grp (and not SP AD) but then it would be contrary to our understanding that SP Msl Grp are Corps/Cmd formation units and SP AD are Div units. I think the key will be to understand the formation units of Mech (I) AD Bde and whether it is a Corps or Cmd formation unit itself. Mech (I) AD Bde is a relatively new kid on the block (as compared to (I) AD Bde) and I am not aware of its role nor its organisation.

BTW, sorry about misreading your statement on SP Msl Grp.

Brahmos Hypersonic Missile to be ready by 2017

The first prototype of a hypersonic cruise missile being jointly developed by Russia and India will be ready for flight testing in 2017, CEO of the Russian-Indian joint venture Brahmos Aerospace, Sivathanu Pillai, said on Wednesday.
Russia and India have recently agreed to develop hypersonic BrahMos 2 missile capable of flying at speeds of Mach 5-Mach 7.
“I think we will need about five years to develop the first fully-functional prototype [of the hypersonic missile],” Pillai said at an engineering technology forum near Moscow.
“We have already carried out a series of lab tests [of the missile] at the speed of 6.5 Mach,” he said.




Pillai said that the new missile will be made in three variants – ground-launched, airborne, and sea-launched.
The official said the new missiles will be supplied only to India and Russia, without exports to third countries.
Established in 1998, BrahMos Aerospace Ltd, a Russian-Indian joint venture currently manufactures BrahMos supersonic
cruise missiles based on the Russian-designed NPO Mashinostroyenie 3M55 Yakhont (SS-N-26).
The BrahMos missile has a range of 290 km (180 miles) and can carry a conventional warhead of up to 300 kg (660 lbs).
It can effectively engage targets from an altitude as low as 10 meters (30 feet) and has a top speed of Mach 2.8, which is about three times faster than the U.S.-made subsonic Tomahawk cruise missile.
Sea- and ground-launched versions have been successfully tested and put into service with the Indian Army and Navy.
The flight tests of the airborne version will be completed by the end of 2012.
The Indian Air Force is planning to arm 40 Su-30MKI Flanker-H fighters with BrahMos missiles.
http://en.ria.ru/mlitary_news/20120627/174271289.html

www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=19213

• After the test, media reports said that advanced hypersonic missile would be able to bomb anywhere in the world within an hour.
  
• The BrahMos missile has a range of 290 km ..

yup! if we can launch it from 290 km away from the intended target.. anywhere in the world.

SaiK, Its the RNI factor in DDM. The reporter was writing about the US test and not the proposed Indian test of hypersonic weapon. The reporter mentally thinks he is in US. And mixes all the news. If his intent was to say the Indian-Russian venture is the second after US he should have stopped after that. But what do you expect form PTI. Its full of dorks.

In all honesty, SaiKji - the reporter did say "currently" before laying down specs for current generation Brahmos

Really stupid question.

Prahaar and AAD are same missiles right ? Where are the differences? Can they be used interchangebly. So same missile on west border take out a incoming missile or be used in Surface to Surface mode to take out a stationary target ? Can they be packaged similarly ?

I kind of like Otomatic - always head turner if it is dual use. Any use of these rests on the doctrine, the way Army wants to fight. That's up to them.


You see, always these are cat & mouse game. While stealthiness of the missiles can be increased, and everyone is trying at all possible level, the potential of sensors that can find these stealthy objects are also increasing. Soon, these missiles has to tackle sensors both in ground, air and sky.

Apart from this, one who can field cheaper/cheapest but effective all-around solutions do have higher chances of winning, particularly Attrition warfare. Even Super Power like US can't be oblivious to this fact.

No, that won't be the case. Even dimensions are different if we go by the news.

Basically, charge of AAD is in the range of less than 30 kg. To be effective in eliminating ground targets, Prahaar should carry at the minimum 100 kg of explosive charges and it is capable of carrying something more than 200 kg solidly. What is the count for Smerch MBRL?

Saik/Ramana ji



1. Reason for comparison with US PGS may be hypersonic Brahmos too could adorn that role considering that this missile is not for export, it range won't be limited to 300 km ?

2. If Russia agrees/concedes to US notion of non ballistic trajectory for PGS program, Russia may think to develop its own such program to enable parity?

3. Brahmos to justify its cost may have to develop something unique considering other competitive programs within DRDO are trying to eat into Brahmos share?

Interesting ... muzzle velocity is 1400 m/sec ... i.e. around Mach 4.

That is why you need missiles with speeds around Mach 7 or 8 plus maneuverability. Stealth too.

Range will have to be limited to 300Km because of Russian MTCR obligation ...since its JV they will have to comply with MTCR obligation and keep the range and warhead within those.



They already have programs that are similar to US hypersonic program that of of strategic nature but are classified in nature , the only known hypersonic missile so far disclosed is Zircon-S hypersonic missile.



DRDO is already developing a 600 km Supersonic Missile and plus subsonic variant Nirbhay ....Brahmos is more in tactical category very useful in Indo-Pak scenario.

With Kanson's Q&A going on, I am encouraged to ask,

we keep hearing about Rustom, and plans to arm it, but no missiles are mentioned, which ones from the current inventory are more suitable for arming the UAVs and UCAVs?

these armaments give a insight into the operational roles as seen by the armed forces, oh yeah, if a predator like capability is in the offing?

Not really necessary to deal with AAA fire main reason for the increasing speeds is reduction in engagement time (remember the failed Osama Tomahawk strike in afghanistan by Clinton?), small caliber AD guns don't even have stopping power to take out sub sonic missiles let alone supersonic ones' (which British found out when they were trying to shoot down V-1s in WW2) you either need relatively high rate of fire (gatling) or larger caliber guns.

35 mm Skyshield is good but i am not sure if dozen 35 mm bullets can really deter a missile the size of Brahmos or moskit from hitting its target much rather have a hit to kill missile rip the thing in half.

John:

It is not 35mm ammunition; the ammunition itself splits into small tungsten balls.

http://defense-update.com/products/a/ahead.htm

It seems the TSPA has 60 of these guns too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerlikon_35_mm_twin_cannon

It says 200 units with 60 AHEAD units modified.It is quite a potent system it seems,the list of users says it all.

Of course they do have hypersonic program like we do have our own program. This doesn't stopped us from getting into hypersonic Brahmos and neither them.

From purely air launched, hypersonic brahmos moved to multi platform candidate including ship launched. Zircon-S fills the same footprint and do the same role as that of hypersonic Brahmos. Why to invest in two different programs to do the same job? Russian press is equating Zircon-S as Brahmos-2.

US, Russia, France and probably other powers like China are creating long range (1000+ km) ramjet/scramjet varieties. Why would India sit idle and loose the initiative of leading the pack with fastest missile so far? Let's see. Do update us with latest news.

Sir ji, already news is out that HELINA is the candidate.

If expected capability of the Rustom is Predator like, it is more than obvious in what roles it will be used. As Predator is fitted with Hellfire, for Rustom it will be an Hellfire equivalent, HELINA.

Range limitation of MTCR under 300 km means that Russian MOD is reluctant to induct it , far too short of minimum 500 km range that Soviet Navy had specified in 80's to deal with NATO threats , export models are however promoted within mtcr restrictions.



Zircon-S was reveled recently as a program for submarine launched hypersonic cruise missile for new 885M class of SSGN under construction. Brahmos-2 is a JV program with India different from their own strategic hypersonic program. this may replace the Shipwreck and P-1000 Vulkan in RuN on submarines and surface ship.

link



Seems like the bubble to deal with NATO/USN CVBG has now been doubled affording greater stand off range or better range with lo-lo profile.

Shipwreck had a hi-lo profile of 500-600 km but in Lo-Lo trajectory it could do ~ 200 km

I'm sure this is obvious, but I'm going to mention it just because what you've written here seems to overlook it.....

With an AD system like the Skyshield with AHEAD 35mm ammo; the closing speed of the target missile isn't really a concern. It isn't like the Skyshield projectiles are trying a "tail chase" of a faster missile. Rather, the inverse is true: The missile is inbound to where the Skyshield is waiting. In other words, you'll know where the missile is headed (your high value target), so that's where Skyshield will shoot. Assuming there are other radar/detection systems to raise the alarm earlier, the Skyshield fire control radars should have no problem computing a firing solution that accounts for multiple 'intercept points', or probably more like an 'intercept vector', with the lower limits of that vector affording the 'bogey' an EXTREMELY low probability of success.

When such a system is deployed in a well thought-out constellation; even extremely convoluted terminal maneuvers may not be enough to get through to hit the target. And those tungsten pellets in the AHEAD rounds are more than enough to shred whatever flies.

The only kind of inbound threat I can think of that would conceivably be impervious to direct hits from Skyshield's AHEAD 35mm rounds has been called "Rods from the Gods" (conceived by Amreekhans as enormous tungsten poles, deployed in space and de-orbited by fast rockets, precisely, vertically, onto a target burried deep underground, if it can be found).

Of course, "Rods from the Gods" hasn't been developed yet, but likely wouldn't be used against a target guarded by AD anyway; since it is probably only ever to be used for a supposedly 'hidden' target, like a command bunker or other underground bunker.

I agree the sky shield is an ideal system for ground based guns, truly impressed with its features, we need to order it pronto with local manufacture. If true and Pak has this system with Ahead, low level flight for our aircraft is a real massive risk, best to fly high and cleanse the area of these guns or else our front line fighters are in serious trouble.