China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 04 Jul 2012 17:03

wong wrote: Err, money??.....

china has more money than india. then why india? why not china?
yes definately money is a factor but its not the only one.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 04 Jul 2012 17:41

Recently there were news items about how an American company was fined 75 Million USD for selling to Chinese software which eventually wound up in the Z-10 helicopter of China.

This is for a case which actually came to light. There have been rumors circulating that the French and few other European nations have shared with the Chinese sensitive avionics and other dual-use technology. The ISS EU in Oct-2009 put out a paper Risky business? The EU, China and dual-use technology. From this article

It happens that non-critical goods such as paint for military applications are banned from being exported as they appear on national munitions lists, and the export of other such minor items is unnecessarily delayed, while whole diesel engines for use in submarines or space technology that can be misused to attack satellites in space can be exported without difﬁculty.

On the other hand, a general tightening of exports due to growing security concerns would backﬁre on European industries: in the light of insufﬁcient public funding, European companies have been able to supplement investments in research and development by export revenues and cheap imports of less technologically advanced machinery parts.
...
The main weakness of the export control regime lies in the details: ﬁrstly, every EU Member State individually translates and implements the politically binding EU Code of Conduct in national law. The same applies to the EU arms embargo on China that has been interpreted quite differently by the EU Member States.
...
Due to industrial policy considerations, (EU) Member States do not report the volume and type of licences that have actually been granted, but rather report denials of licences. Accordingly there is no overview on the European level of the volume and nature of dual-use technology exported to China and hence no certainty whether a ‘critical mass’ has been achieved with which China could build e.g. a ‘system of systems’.
...
Weighing up opportunities against risks, the advantage of collaboration(between eu and china) scores higher: collaborating with China offers new revenues that can be used for R&D in seminal technologies, participation in a burgeoning market and the possibility of keeping track of China’s developments. Moreover, collaboration can further encourage China to step up its participation and compliance in non-proliferation regimes that will not succeed without China’s engagement.

This is not related only to the Europeans, our own neighbor has been eager to share with Chinese american and European technology. Consider the case of the downed stealth helicopter which took part in the OBL raid. Or the case of stealth drone bought down by the Iranians.

In theory there is an arms embargo on China. But like they say theory and practice have an impedance mismatch.

nash · Post by **nash** » 04 Jul 2012 19:31

wong wrote:
nash wrote: Mr. wong care to tell me then why USA so eager to exporting C-17,C-130 super hercules,Apache,M-777,P-8I,etc.
Err, money?? High paying jobs for Americans. It's an almost perverse, reverse welfare system. $1 Billion for propellers planes for Switzerland. What's next for Indian arms imports ?? $1 Million AK-47's from Qatar or $2 million RPG's from Monaco ??

But you are missing a important point, may be deliberately, offset.

just take eg. of C-17 deal offset:

http://www.defencenews.in/defence-news- ... old&id=504

the offsets including a High Altitude Engine Test Facility and Trisonic Wind Tunnel Facility which is alone valued at around half a billion dollars for the Defence Research & Development Organisation.

India's access to advanced technology air tunnel and the installation of the same in India would be important as it has till now depended on Russian test facilities to evaluate the indigenous Kaveri jet engine, which was to be used in the LCA project.

And this exactly the point which Karan tried to explain, India have access to western technology and now as you say we have money also to get that technology.

And with the ongoing JVs or Deal(with offset) we will get the Best of product with adequate logistic supply.

But PRC even have reserves of money, they don't have luxury to get those technogies and the path you guies have chosen which made PRC to wait for western countries to build something and then PRC will replicate it with any possible way.

In that way PRC may be better than many countries but always second in the race of technology.

Don · Post by **Don** » 04 Jul 2012 20:27

nash wrote:But PRC even have reserves of money, they don't have luxury to get those technogies and the path you guies have chosen which made PRC to wait for western countries to build something and then PRC will replicate it with any possible way.

In that way PRC may be better than many countries but always second in the race of technology.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/fb3d3b26-b ... z1zfNZh6dK

June 27, 2012 12:04

China to rival US tech knowhow, say execs

By Peter Marsh

China will rival the US as the country with the biggest potential to develop key technology breakthroughs with a big impact on the business world, according to a survey of more than 650 executives in industries such as computing and electronics.

According to the poll, organised by the KPMG consultancy, Chinese companies and researchers are beginning to develop expertise in fields such as artificial intelligence and advanced software that will lead to “disruptive” changes in products and services and as a result provide China with a big economic boost.

In the study, 30 per cent of the executives asked to give their views said that China will be the single biggest “global hotspot” for innovation within the next four years, with the US in second place attracting 29 per cent of the votes.

India, Japan and South Korea came next in the poll, with 13 per cent, 8 per cent and 5 per cent of the respondents to the survey naming these countries.

Chinese companies named as being among the likely leaders in technology over the next few years include the Tencent and Baidu internet businesses and Huawei, the fast growing telecoms equipment group.

Areas of technology where Chinese companies are seen as developing specific strengths include gaming software and cloud computing. Other disciplines where China is regarded as having the capability to push ahead in innovation include low-energy industrial processing and nanotechnology – the science of tiny particles.

The executives who answered questions in the survey work in technology-based businesses around the world, mainly in North America, Europe and the Asia-Pacific region.

Tudor Aw, KPMG’s head of technology in Europe, said that the results showing China was a fast developing rival to the US in technology were “surprising” given the country’s relatively poor showing in devising important technical innovations over the past 30 years.

“I think what the survey shows is that the big advances in education in China, and the money being put into technology development, are likely to lead to breakthroughs in a way that many people might not expect,” Mr Aw said.

He added that the speed of change in technology often was extremely fast – as shown, for instance, by the fast rise to prominence in mobile telecoms by Nokia, together with the Finnish company’s equally rapid descent.

“Given the likely pace of change in the coming years in many areas of technology, it becomes plausible to think that China – in spite of its lack of a record in the past few years in this field – could be the country where the leading examples of innovation take place,” Mr Aw said.

Among the factors that could hold back technology innovation were governments clamping down on the amount of personal information shared over the internet.

On the assumption that privacy fears were to lead to restrictions, then incentives to devise new ways to use the information would inevitably be reduced, according to people who participated in the survey.

nash · Post by **nash** » 04 Jul 2012 21:37

Don wrote: http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/fb3d3b26-b ... z1zfNZh6dK

Software, and that too cloud computing, may be but i have doubts.

My experience and other's with chinese people project different picture.

They need documentation full of screenshots of every single step to install an application, even then they have issues.
And lack of English language make it more worse when people try to explain usual software issues, they may understand the meaning, but context and inference, its total different ball game for them.

May be all people are not of that type, but even in this forum only whenever discussion stretches same ctrl+c - ctrl+v practice came alive.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 04 Jul 2012 23:18

nash wrote:
Software, and that too cloud computing, may be but i have doubts.

My experience and other's with chinese people project different picture.

They need documentation full of screenshots of every single step to install an application, even then they have issues.
And lack of English language make it more worse when people try to explain usual software issues, they may understand the meaning, but context and inference, its total different ball game for them.

This FT article is a paid article. Think tanks in the west have a different opinion about this on China.

wong · Post by **wong** » 05 Jul 2012 00:09

Chinese computer skills are tested every year in international computing competitions like Google Code Jam. China has not only won it, but usually finishes in the top ten. India... Not so much.

http://www.go-hero.net/jam/12/regions

wong · Post by **wong** » 05 Jul 2012 00:14

nash wrote:
But you are missing a important point, may be deliberately, offset.

If any of these offsets or ToT programs were working, Russia wouldn't have pricing power over India on things like the Su-30MKi. China licensed production of the Su-27, built 100 and then sent the Russians packing. There was no 100% price increases for China. Quite the opposite.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_htvjsmtPrmc/T ... f+su30.jpg

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 05 Jul 2012 00:20

built 100 and then sent the Russians packing

I applaud your tactical brilliance.

no wonder they are reluctant to sell anymore Sukhois to China. Even the PAK FA is out of reach. The last time I checked they had no planes to support the varyag.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 05 Jul 2012 01:47

wong,
The leader in that google code jam list you presented is Russia. It actually points out a startling similarity between you guys. The CCP is no different from the former CPSU when it comes to one thing. The obsession to prove superiority combined with the government power to incentivize anything they deem as important to national pride. The Russians won medals at pretty much everything from physics to mathematics to sports. Fat lot of good it did to them.
Most people out here know we have a lot of weaknesses that are particular to our style of governance and well culture. It isn't like we're very different really. Only our Govt can't be bothered to prioritize that obsessively. We also believe it'll get solved in due time, our way.
This isn't meant in any way to belittle your achievements. Go over to the space thread to see that we appreciate your efforts and achievements. Using those to cover up and deny your apparent weaknesses reminds us of the efforts at ehh and dee of our dear brothers, the Pakis

P.S. The google code jam ? Seriously ?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 05 Jul 2012 03:21

KrishnaK wrote:
P.S. The google code jam ? Seriously ?

Ssshh...

wong · Post by **wong** » 05 Jul 2012 15:37

KrishnaK wrote: P.S. The google code jam ? Seriously ?

What's wrong with the Google Code Jam? It's not a government supported contest like the Olympics. It's a Google designed contest to find good programmers. There are more Indian contestants than any other country (3,000+ this year alone). Check the other international coding competitions. Its results track code jam. You can perform statistical tests of computer programming aptitude with such rank lists and its 10,000+ sample size for each year. In short, the computer programming aptitude is just really not there in your country.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 05 Jul 2012 17:11

Google Code Jam is not some ordinary competition.. though I am not a Chinese fan boy by any stretch of imagination--- But I think belittling Code Jam is also pretty lame and Juvenile... we don't need to go down to that level..

To me it is pretty obvious .. We are to IT what Chinese are to Manufacturing ... Simple Cost... Arbitrator... Majority of the students will be busy working in SAP or some other modules... I don't see much core developer desi crowd in any of the conference like Google I/O either... but when you go to Service delivery related conference you will see lot of desi crowd.... it is a straight fact and there is no shame in it either..

I have always found it strange that NRI parents are obsessed with spelling bee contest--- last 9 champions are NRI kids... --- It is somehow disturbing for me that our culture promotes kind of activities where outcome is directly related how much hours you are putting into something and not how much innovation and out of box thinking...

Chinese are similar --they are no good at programming as well... -- it is an Oriental philosophy I guess.. hard work, dogged determination... perseverance .. all are appreciated.. but somehow for cutting edge computing---Intelligence is a key factor...

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 05 Jul 2012 17:20

wong wrote:Chinese computer skills are tested every year in international computing competitions like Google Code Jam. China has not only won it, but usually finishes in the top ten. India... Not so much.

http://www.go-hero.net/jam/12/regions

I agree, its a well known fact that Indians are particularly weak in computer programming.

All our 'attack helicopters' run on code we obtained by tricking US defense companies.

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 05 Jul 2012 18:28

Boreas wrote:
All our 'attack helicopters' run on code we obtained by tricking US defense companies.

Interesting, any more details on this?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 05 Jul 2012 19:17

Boreas wrote:
wong wrote:Chinese computer skills are tested every year in international computing competitions like Google Code Jam. China has not only won it, but usually finishes in the top ten. India... Not so much.

http://www.go-hero.net/jam/12/regions
I agree, its a well known fact that Indians are particularly weak in computer programming.

All our 'attack helicopters' run on code we obtained by tricking US defense companies.

Nice one.

Raveen,
Boreas is just being sarcastic.

wong · Post by **wong** » 05 Jul 2012 20:53

Prithwiraj wrote:
Chinese are similar --they are no good at programming as well... -- it is an Oriental .

Statistically, this statement is not true. A simple histogram of results would show that the two distributions are very, very different.

This is the last code jam round.

http://code.google.com/codejam/contest/ ... scoreboard#

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 05 Jul 2012 22:11

^ One should not let this wong fellow indulge in misdirection. The discussion was about Chinese stealing stuff they cant make and making stuff that is not worth stealing, lets keep the focus on that.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Jul 2012 22:15

IN FOCUS: China awaits fighter export breakthrough

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 06 Jul 2012 08:22

LOL....so you download a input file....solve it and upload the output file...what is the guarantee that i did it ????

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jul 2012 10:28

so where do all these chinese super programmers eventually work? the bay area is full of Yindu in high profile positions in the SW arms of almost any co that comes up with original products incl startups.
there are also considerable number of europeans incl from places like UK, France,Italy, Russia, germany...canadians and some brazilians too.
I have seldom if ever seen chinese much on the SW side. if found they tend to cluster in diagnostics sw for some reason.

passing exams/winning contests in late teens is one thing, making a +ve impact on the industry or r&d is another. indians have done that and are doing that in droves not just in tech, but in finance as well. and unlike your hero worship

if you check the indian education thread we criticise our own and expect them to do more, much more.

wong · Post by **wong** » 06 Jul 2012 16:57

Singha wrote:so where do all these chinese super programmers eventually work? the bay area is full of Yindu in high profile positions in the SW arms of almost any co that comes up with original products incl startups.
there are also considerable number of europeans incl from places like UK, France,Italy, Russia, germany...canadians and some brazilians too.
I have seldom if ever seen chinese much on the SW side. if found they tend to cluster in diagnostics sw for some reason.

passing exams/winning contests in late teens is one thing, making a +ve impact on the industry or r&d is another. indians have done that and are doing that in droves not just in tech, but in finance as well. and unlike your hero worship if you check the indian education thread we criticise our own and expect them to do more, much more.

That's just your 50% of NASA engineers are Indians myth. The numbers don't support it. There are more Chinese-American self-made billionaires (7) than Indian-American billionaires (4) in the Forbes list. There is no Indian-American founded tech company equivalent to Yahoo, Computer Associates, Nvidia or Youtube. Indians falsely take credit for the Pentium chip, but An Wang actually holds the patent for the memory chip.

Code jam has no age restriction. It's not a high school contest. It's open to all Indians and more Indians try than any other nationality each year. Statistically, they also do the worst of any G20 country. And Google flies you from all over the world for the finals. They've never had to buy an Indian plane ticket.

rsharma · Post by **rsharma** » 06 Jul 2012 17:23

Singha wrote:so where do all these chinese super programmers eventually work?

Inside Comlade Wong's head !
Lots of empty space there u see

koti · Post by **koti** » 06 Jul 2012 17:28

wong wrote:Indians falsely take credit for the........

Wong saab, Wrong saab.....
Do you suggest them Indians also falsely take credit for Zero?
And do you also mean J-11 and F-7 were authentic?

PS:You know Boson?

rsharma · Post by **rsharma** » 06 Jul 2012 17:43

Oh and by the bay

comlade Wong,
I work for this company called Ditech Networks (HQ -San Jose, CA) out of their first offshore Development centre ( guess what, its not in China, its in Gurgaon, India). Ditech Networks is a leader in delivering voice solutions ( Voice Quality Solutions, Voice-to-Text applications etc. - clients include Verizon, Orange, Telefónica, Cincinnati Bell, AT&T, China Unicom

and many many more).

I am a mid-senior level researcher with this company and guess what, the Global Delivery head is an Indian, the CTO is an Indian(my team directly reports to him), as are many more Indian origin folks working at top positions for this company.
Yes there are Chinese too, but they are mostly fresh graduates out of college and my very frank opinion of the lot is that they crib more and work less. The lot seems to create more nuisance than any actual research.

I must admit there have been some brilliant Chinese origin researchers in the field, who have done some great work, but when I compare the whole lot, on the average, the Chinese lag far behind in terms of diligence, quality of work yielded per research project per person and above all they fare far behind when compared to Indians in bringing any novel idea to the fore.

Thele you go Comlade Wong !

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 06 Jul 2012 18:48

must be working at huawei

late night photochor activities and upload and download

wong · Post by **wong** » 06 Jul 2012 19:37

^^^^

With the exception of Sun, all 2nd Tier firms. 5 Hour Energy isn't even a tech company.

Sun is like Wang Labs, a once great but now dead company. Anything else??

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 06 Jul 2012 19:38

Li Bin, an IPR lawyer from China says that the growth of Chinese patent filings is more a reflection of ‘trash patents’ than China’s ability to innovate (89).

http://www.topsecretwriters.com/2012/01 ... -in-china/

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 06 Jul 2012 19:44

I told you.
THis guy from a repressed country which is communist and does not allow rule of law is trying to prove that they are like free country.

They want to show that communist soceity can create new innovation.

koti · Post by **koti** » 06 Jul 2012 19:59

Let us take the discussion elsewhere.

This is a conspiracy to derail the thread...

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 06 Jul 2012 20:05

not to speak of fake apple stores in China... just way to much of copying and that too shamelessly....

So much for Innovation !!!

list of ridiculous fake products in China.. !!

Ha ha . .Red Bottle...!!!

They have not spared the Mexicans also .. !!

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 06 Jul 2012 20:39

Is China a country of billionaires with these fake products

There are more Chinese-American self-made billionaires (7) than Indian-American billionaires (4) in the Forbes list.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 06 Jul 2012 20:45

Acharya wrote:Is China a country of billionaires with these fake products

A country of billionaires with cheap and bonded labor --- folks who have connection with politburo will get labor at the cheapest rate and exploit that to churn out products which can not beaten at a base quality. As simple as that.

manum · Post by **manum** » 06 Jul 2012 20:59

^^ India is no better...We seem to be draping ourselves in glory, soon we'll turn in PRC by overdoing it...

yantra · Post by **yantra** » 06 Jul 2012 21:08

Mr.Wong,

Unlike the Chinese, Indian entrepreneurs have always relied on organic, and self-developed growth - combined with innovation and creativity.

If they were to steal, duplicate and copy - probably they would have become short-term power-houses long-time ago. Have the Chinese ever heard of the term 'licensed manufacturing'? Well, no. Indian companies have collaborated, contributed, and co-developed a lot of products. And they are not always commercially successful - but socially important (rice crops, wheat grains, malaria drugs, etc). You will not hear a company so blatantly copying Buick and GM brands or killing the inventors of innovative products with cheap imitation - with the open support of the government and getting away with it. No where else in the world does this happen. But you will hear of pioneering efforts of companies like Sycamore, Hotmail, Sun or service giants like Infosys, TCS, Cognizant and Wipro. You will also hear more of the Tatas, Reliance and such companies in the years to come. Can you name such non-government backed, genuine Chinese companies doing cutting-edge innovation?

If you call copying, subverting economic data, stealing and lying to its own people - progress, so be it. Indians and the rest of the world do not believe in such a progress and do not want such 'talent'.

The point is - this is not an even contest. The 'hare' China thinks it has won, but the race has just begun. The spirit of human beings - liberty, freedom and entrepreneurship (sorry if those words are not allowed in Chinese govt dictionary - you may not understand) will continue to drive innovation and creativity in India - like it did in the US, Japan, South Korea and the West. It will take time, but will happen. It will then not matter who won the Google Code contest - it will matter whose missile destroyed its target accurately.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 06 Jul 2012 21:19

China’s military march is on
China’s defence budgetary investments will likely touch $238.2 billion by 2015.

In this regard, China's emphasis on its missile force capable of launching standoff precision strikes will only get strengthened by 2015, when the PLA is expected to field additional road-mobile DF-31A inter-continental ballistic missiles (ICBMs) and enhanced, silo-based DF-5 (CSS-4) ICBMs. China's nuclear arsenal currently consists of about 50-75 silo-based, liquid-fuelled and road-mobile, solid-fuelled ICBMs. Asia's geo-strategic paradigm would continue to get eclipsed by security dilemmas flowing out of lack of transparency and limited dissemination of military information by China. In light of the increased focus and investments in military capabilities by the PLA, interpretations of power projection capabilities that could depose any/all regional and global strategic calculations remain galore.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 06 Jul 2012 21:21

wong wrote: What's wrong with the Google Code Jam? It's not a government supported contest like the Olympics. It's a Google designed contest to find good programmers. There are more Indian contestants than any other country (3,000+ this year alone). Check the other international coding competitions. Its results track code jam. You can perform statistical tests of computer programming aptitude with such rank lists and its 10,000+ sample size for each year. In short, the computer programming aptitude is just really not there in your country.

I remember how in olympics Soviets & East Germans use to be top two beating US and others.

It's always a trend for totalitarian regimes with rotten and stinking system to compensate by burning resources to win some accolades on international scene. Just in the few years these two fell face down licking dust.

I remember around a year ago Dr. Shiv had made a point that if China were so advanced in tech, it would show on the international level. No CAT scan or MRI scan machines are in market made by chinees, this high tech machines are still being made by companies like GE etc.

None of the jets you are making are preferred over russian, french, US jets in fact no one with money even invites you for even tender. Only poor countries buy these jets of yours which have already been copied by someone else long before you started making them.

Though I wish you luck getting rid of this genocider commie regime which has not only genocided millions of poor chinese people but also wiped out your great culture too. I hope days of great men like Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu & Lih Tzu return and chinese people are rid of these perverted lot who are ruling under commie nameplate and are actually just fanboys of western culture.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 06 Jul 2012 21:44

wong:

Jerry Wang of Yahoo is from Taiwan.
CA's Charles Wang's family fled China soon after Mao took over (1952 when he was 8 years old)
Steve Chen of Youtube is from Taiwan.
Jen-Hsun Huang of nVidia is from Taiwan.

Why do you take so much pleasure in repeatedly making an ass of yourself? Is it a pathological need to get spanked repeatedly?

As it has been repeatedly said, most of the discussion on BR is focused on the PRC system, and not people of Chinese ethnicity
===
And you really feel that programming competitions are a measure of how well you can design systems? They test one particular aspect: how fast can you code a puzzle/riddle type problem in an exam setting. Most of them follow a relatively predictable pattern of questions, and many regular competitors have packages/libraries to tackle many of the sub-problems. On topcoder there are people who have been members for 6-7 years; essentially professional contestants.

And of course PRC being the pinnacle of intellectual honesty, there is absolutely no code-sharing or idea sharing among Chinese participants. I will not be surprised if the CCP spends its resources on grooming people for these competition like they (or the DDR, USSR before them) do for other competition.

===

To BR Admins: Why is this troll even allowed to post? He adds no value. Most of his posts are designed to disrupt the communication and interaction, what is commonly used as flame baits. So many other people waste their time trying to correct him, time which could have been constructively spent to learn more.

I think he has been repeatedly warned. It is time to send him to his reeducation camp, permanently.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 06 Jul 2012 22:31

Someone famous said; "I may not agree with what you say, but I strongly support your freedom to say what you think to be true"

I'm casting my vote to allow ashi wong and the other chinese folk to post on here. They may not be IIT IIM Ivy mettle...but they do serve a purpose, if only to show that there are not only Indians and Indian viewpoints in this world. When only one type of viewpoint remains, one becomes a raging mob with a certain, common, brainwashed agenda. BRF should not have any of that, as that is exactly what we point out to be a flaw in communist, repressed systems.

I'm a member of some other forums...and I find many of them to be highly intolerant of diverging views. If posters differ from the dogma that goes commonly around the forum, they attract lots of flak, accusations of trolling and bans.

I hope that BR remains and retains its high quality. At the same time as it allows for not-so-excellent-but-sincere posters with DIFFERING points of view, to post.

Best wishes to everyone.

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 06 Jul 2012 22:37

^^Ya ya and such strong valid debating points do bring out the best in Indians too, as have been witnessed over past couple of days. There were so many interesting posts/arguments/counter-arguments, now Shiv would definitely say "All it needs is a little push". OT though, please continue!!!